The condition hate is cemented into the community

[Genesis.5169]

https://ibb.co/bFsyCVc

 

I was d/p p/p Daredevil.

The only condition i can apply is vul/blind/ensnare and a tiny bit of poison. (i never used pistol 2 so count out the ensnare)

This build could perhaps be the most power build in the game barring warriors I just don't apply any damaging condition of note.

Also Conditions thiefs don't exist.

We have been balancing pvp for these people.

 

No and no this isn't an isolated incident, consider this an micro-chasm of 8 years.

 

Edited July 30, 2021 by Genesis.5169

[DoomNexus.5324]

You will never know why people reacted confused to this comment 😧
(Don't read the quote in the next comment tho)

Edited July 31, 2021 by DoomNexus.5324

[Genesis.5169]

13 minutes ago, DoomNexus.5324 said:

I fully agree, damaging condis are the worst and should be deleted for sPvP.

Requires literally no skill whatsoever and is the single most annoying thing to play against.

I'm not even kidding.

Case and point.

This is a please remove everything out of the game that i can't just ignore post, which has been happening for 8 years.

Let.

Pvp.

Out.

Of.

It's.

Cage.

 

You cannot safe space these people no place is safe enough for them because only one team can win this isn't PvE where everyone can succeed.

[flog.3485]

Here is a secret, nobody really likes condi builds (or rather healthpool degen builds) in MMOs. It is not a case exclusive to guild wars 2, although in other games with a more traditional approach, you can just blame the healer for not removing conditions and healing through it.
 

 

[anjo.6143]

2 hours ago, Genesis.5169 said:

https://ibb.co/bFsyCVc

 

I was d/p p/p Daredevil.

The only condition i can apply is vul/blind/ensnare and a tiny bit of poison. (i never used pistol 2 so count out the ensnare)

This build could perhaps be the most power build in the game barring warriors I just don't apply any damaging condition of note.

Also Conditions thiefs don't exist.

We have been balancing pvp for these people.

 

No and no this isn't an isolated incident, consider this an micro-chasm of 8 years.

 

 

Only viable build for thief is DP meta, others are just meme.

[Leonidrex.5649]

I remember playing berserker axe/torch, sword/pistol mirage.
Killed a rev, he started pming me how OP condi mirage is, and that AT is the only reason I killed him.
When I told him im not using AT he started calling me bad for not using AT.
His incompetence made my day 😄

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

4 hours ago, Genesis.5169 said:

https://ibb.co/bFsyCVc

 

I was d/p p/p Daredevil.

The only condition i can apply is vul/blind/ensnare and a tiny bit of poison. (i never used pistol 2 so count out the ensnare)

This build could perhaps be the most power build in the game barring warriors I just don't apply any damaging condition of note.

Also Conditions thiefs don't exist.

We have been balancing pvp for these people.

 

No and no this isn't an isolated incident, consider this an micro-chasm of 8 years.

 

 

Couple things about this.

 

I [redacted] with those weapons. Condi thief [redacted] if you make some adjustments on that. I doubt you were doing so though.

 

If people are eating raw damage and think they're dying to conditions, that isn't condition hate. That's a fundamental inability to grasp the concept of avoiding damage and parroting some complaint you heard before to protect your ego. 

 

Condi hate does exist. They have been paired with obnoxious builds for years, so while this is understandable it should still be taken on a case by case basis, based on the build you're fighting. 

 

1 hour ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

When I told him im not using AT he started calling me bad for not using AT.

 

Sad but unfortunately how the majority of people who will whisper you are in pvp

 

3 hours ago, DoomNexus.5324 said:

I fully agree, damaging condis are the worst and should be deleted for sPvP.

Requires literally no skill whatsoever and is the single most annoying thing to play against.

I'm not even kidding.

 

2 hours ago, Genesis.5169 said:

You cannot safe space these people no place is safe enough for them because only one team can win this isn't PvE where everyone can succeed.

 

I think you're both wrong in your approach, but both right in your premise. 

 

Damaging conditions have a place in PvP, but it should hit the sweetspot between jamming people that don't have a condi cleanse every 15 seconds to death via a trivially easy build, and not being effective at all. There have been very few instances of that happening; it has almost always been either one extreme or the other. Both extremes are bad, and the balancing team will need to be careful when implementing condition builds.

 

Conditions should do:

 

Less damage/less potent condis when the hit made to connect them is easy, automatic or insulated with evades. Hitting someone with spear of justice and just remaining near them should not be a major source of burning dps. Pressing primordial stance and standing near someone should not be a major source of dps. Standing near someone and pressing 3 as Dagger/Dagger 3 should not be a major source of dps.

 

Extremely potent condis when the hit made to connect them is hard, conditional, telegraphed, or channeled. 

For example, getting hit by Prime Light Beam should do significant stacks of burning and vuln on impact, if holo is heated. Getting hit by churning earth should put 9-10 stacks of bleeding and vuln on you. Getting hit by chilled to the bone or executioner's scythe should nuke you with bleeds and something debilitating like cripple if you are hit by the reaper before stunbreaking being frozen solid. Axes of symmetry's pve combat values is a good example of this. Unfortunately mirage cloak's design destroys it for pvp-

 

More conditional damage that depends on hitting an opponent already suffering from a specific condition, who have been hit by another obvious move, or on crit.

Those three builds I mentioned above with easy condi application? They have good groundwork for actually setting up the damaging condis. Standing near someone with spear of justice shouldn't apply burning so liberally, but hitting someone snared with spear of justice should.  Standing near someone with primordial stance should not churn conditions onto them, but perhaps landing a move that deals conditions should deal double the conditions while they are channeling primordial stance. Spinning over someone with Dagger Dagger 3 shouldn't load them with conditions initially, but perhaps it should do something that punishes people getting hit by it repeatedly, like applying significant stacks if someone is hit by a death blossom  strike eight times in 5 seconds or something.  As long as there is effort invested in being aware of the combat situation, conditions absolutely should have some viable builds. 

 

Also, high damage condition builds should as a whole not be safer than power builds to play if they are to exist. They should require the same investment in lack of defenses that power builds tend to have the further they go into dps. This is not to say that they should not be allowed to access tanky builds, but their tankiness should directly impact their damage output. if you pick up an amulet with 900 vitality or toughness, you should resign yourself to a bunker role and not expect to be melting people with conditions, and the condition paths available for the classes should absolutely reflect and enforce that. The more tanky traitlines they pick, the more their condi damage application should approach that "slow, grind hp down" playstyle cmc envisioned for condi thief. 

 

There is a very careful balancing act that needs to be done there. I don't mind conditions, but the builds seen so far have boiled down to "press 1 to put obnoxious amounts of bleed, torment or burn on your opponent at a rate faster than they can cleanse."

 

If we can -not- do that, sure. 

Edited July 30, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Shao.7236]

It's almost as if damage overtime requires the user to be tankier so it can wear out it's enemies without dying instantly.

 

Being that Condition Ranger only works because Immob spam is janky af or that Guardian always have the ability to burn constantly no matter how much you try to avoid it. SoJ was just an unbalanced anomaly from the past.

 

Never has really any condition build truly be meta unless they had somekind of crutch assisting it. Power will always dominate, even in the state of Resistance not affecting Poison nor damage, it'll never be high enough to be as effective as Power in PvP.

[Leonidrex.5649]

power damage is mechanically superior to condi.
dealing damage instantly is simply better then dealing damage over time, and this doesnt even include the the fact that its easy as kitten to remove the dot effects.
add the fact that most power builds get to easily take loads of cleansing without much sacrifices, and even in 5power vs 5power teams they are loaded with cleansing.
This doesnt even include issues like team cleansing, conditions are virtually useless in some cases, how do you deal any condi damage during teamfight when you fight 2 scourges ( aoe cleanse on barrier ) and core guard ( aoe cleanse + convert, instantly ).
No matter how bad the power damage gets, bad damage will be better then NO damage.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

4 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

dealing damage instantly is simply better then dealing damage over time, and this doesnt even include the the fact that its easy as kitten to remove the dot effects.

 

While I understand your angle, I do want to point out that power damage has some drawbacks, namely:

 

* It is directly affected by toughness, whereas condi ignores it

* Some traits and skills in the game allow players to become immune to direct damage or critical hits for short periods of time, but are affected by conditions during this

* It requires investment in three stat denominations instead of two to do significant damage, leaving very little room for damage mitigation outside of actively preventing it in the first place 

* It is culled by weakness.

 

Currently, condi damage in pvp has to ramp up, which often gives you ample time to cleanse it. We got to that point because people were applying condis so frequently that constant nerfs had to be made to the durations of certain condis, so now they cannot ramp as effectively. I do not think power damage is always worse than condi - saying bad damage always trumps no damage ignores the fact that condi application also often does strike damage along with its condi. 

 

I -do- however, feel that condi builds are invalidated by groups vomiting cleanses all over the place, and that should be addressed. That being said, It needs to be addressed in a manner that does not cause a repeat of what we had with condi sidenoders before.

 

Personally before the torment rework, fighting a mirage and getting peppered with conditions that punish you for moving and acting at the same time, while the opponent plays keep away and goes invulnerable the moment you get in range of them was -not- okay when I was playing warrior. Even with mending and shake it off slotted, that matchup was still rough. That is one of the extremes I'd like to stop well short of in any balance patches that target condition application.

 

If condition matchups  can be implemented in a manner that is intuitive, has clear counterplay and feels satisfying to land instead of  a variant of "press buttons until your opponent runs out of cooldowns and dies", then great. 

 

  I think the condi builds working like a mirror of the current power ones, where getting cced usually means you take big damage if you don't have a stunbreak (and if you do you escape) would give us more room to point to ways matchups could be won vs condi builds when the inevitable condi op whine starts. 

 

 

Edited July 31, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Dadnir.5038]

I find it funny how the OP explain that he use a power centric build yet receive hate from people that mistakenly think he use a condi build both in the game and on the forum...

 

Indeed, the condi hate is disproportionate and irrational to this point.

[Leonidrex.5649]

9 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

While I understand your angle, I do want to point out that power damage has some drawbacks, namely:

 

* It is directly affected by toughness, whereas condi ignores it

* Some traits and skills in the game allow players to become immune to direct damage or critical hits for short periods of time, but are affected by conditions during this

* It requires investment in three stat denominations instead of two to do significant damage, leaving very little room for damage mitigation outside of actively preventing it in the first place 

* It is culled by weakness.

 

Currently, condi damage in pvp has to ramp up, which often gives you ample time to cleanse it. We got to that point because people were applying condis so frequently that constant nerfs had to be made to the durations of certain condis, so now they cannot ramp as effectively. I do not think power damage is always worse than condi - saying bad damage always trumps no damage ignores the fact that condi application also often does strike damage along with its condi. 

 

I -do- however, feel that condi builds are invalidated by groups vomiting cleanses all over the place, and that should be addressed. That being said, It needs to be addressed in a manner that does not cause a repeat of what we had with condi sidenoders before.

 

Personally before the torment rework, fighting a mirage and getting peppered with conditions that punish you for moving and acting at the same time, while the opponent plays keep away and goes invulnerable the moment you get in range of them was -not- okay when I was playing warrior. Even with mending and shake it off slotted, that matchup was still rough. That is one of the extremes I'd like to stop well short of in any balance patches that target condition application.

 

If condition matchups  can be implemented in a manner that is intuitive, has clear counterplay and feels satisfying to land instead of  a variant of "press buttons until your opponent runs out of cooldowns and dies", then great. 

 

  I think the condi builds working like a mirror of the current power ones, where getting cced usually means you take big damage if you don't have a stunbreak (and if you do you escape) would give us more room to point to ways matchups could be won vs condi builds when the inevitable condi op whine starts. 

 

 

Having 3 stats for damage and not 1 is actually an ADVANTAGE.
As it lets you choose how much damage or survivability you want to have, on a condi build you dont have that choice.
And if you take berserker or demo or maruder you can always compensate with traits instead, in current bunker meta all bunkers are power, so it shows they are not being stopped are they now ?
3 stats also lets you have high, highs when it comes to damage, and you can stack more modifiers, which lets you do insane things. As condi build you usually get might, vuln, amulet and thats mostly all you can get, while power builds can stack 50 different modiviers and land 10k+ hits or insta-gib combos.
You cant kill people in 0,5s with conditions, but stacked to kitten soulbeast with 25 might from someone can do that.
Also while toughness does "counter" power damage, you can opt to take healing power/vitality and be good against both power and condi damage, without losing much for it.
There are also things like runes that MASSIVELY reduce condition damage -25% condi duration is a massive damage reduction, things like dolyak dont come even close on the power side, not to mention light aura that gives more or less ~40% condi damage reduction.

[Genesis.5169]

6 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I find it funny how the OP explain that he use a power centric build yet receive hate from people that mistakenly think he use a condi build both in the game and on the forum...

 

Indeed, the condi hate is disproportionate and irrational to this point.

 

Crazy isn't it.

[Grimjack.8130]

shhh dont tell them condition damage has 2 points where you can mitigate its damage not just 1 like power, itll confuse them and make them angrier

[Arheundel.6451]

So many power specs....

 

[Allarius.5670]

53 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

So many power specs....

 

 

That intro. Amazing.

[Leonidrex.5649]

teapot : this S/D thief can bunker bust against this prot holo here
S/D thief : glancing hit, 250 damage, glancing hit 380 damage :DDD

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

I wouldn't say the hate for condi build is cemented I would say  it is hard as steel.

 

Main reason is they either are OP or sucks.

 

The reasons they are OP are :

1.)Ignore Toughness

2.)They don't need the fury boon or doesn't matter so much.

3.)They don't need extra precession like e.g Power Tempest

4.)They have great synergy  with soft cc skills

5.) Viper and Grieving stats set/amulet have much more stat point then others which gives them more dmg then power dmg builds or pure condi builds.

6.) Condis can't crit so Arena.NET made it so that the condi dmg is always so adjusted as if they crit.

7.) For the most part the tankiest builds are also the best condi builds atm.

8.) From my tests I can tell it is much easier to tag and enemy for loot with condi builds in wvw/pve.

9.) For PvE it means power creep to 20-30% more dmg on bosses.

 

The reasons they suck are:

1.) With enough condi clean you dmg becomes 0 or low (Hybrid builds)

2.) Ramp up time is slow but not in PvE any more(by force).

 

All this alone show from a technical stand point hat this is a failed design in the sense it  is never consisting or fair.

 

Lets talk real Arena.NET developers tried with each add-on to promote the use of condis in each game mode and again last and this year again.. I can tell players hated it and still do.

 

For PvP like others said the reason is missing condi cleans in the HoT times which is partially still there because sPvP in Gw2 has no dedicated roles like the game had in vanilla at all. People ignore roles because of this only in Platinum 1-2 people starts to take roles serious.  Yes there were also lack of skills for condi cleans for some classes but this is fixed atm .

 

Second reason for sPvP is the spam of soft cc especially Scourge/necro is here an offender chill is way too strong cc condi in this game . Together with barrier or shroud and it big live pool it is like fighting someone with 5x the HP pool of yourself. Problem is also that those fields pulse and push those condis/chill on the player again.

 

DH strength also doesn't come from SoJ but from the trap which force you to stay still and make it easy to attack you.

Edited August 1, 2021 by Lord of the Fire.6870

[Genesis.5169]

3 hours ago, Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

I wouldn't say the hate for condi build is cemented I would say  it is hard as steel.

 

Main reason is they either are OP or sucks.

 

The reasons they are OP are :

1.)Ignore Toughness

2.)They don't need the fury boon or doesn't matter so much.

3.)They don't need extra precession like e.g Power Tempest

4.)They have great synergy  with soft cc skills

5.) Viper and Grieving stats set/amulet have much more stat point then others which gives them more dmg then power dmg builds or pure condi builds.

6.) Condis can't crit so Arena.NET made it so that the condi dmg is always so adjusted as if they crit.

7.) For the most part the tankiest builds are also the best condi builds atm.

8.) From my tests I can tell it is much easier to tag and enemy for loot with condi builds in wvw/pve.

9.) For PvE it means power creep to 20-30% more dmg on bosses.

 

The reasons they suck are:

1.) With enough condi clean you dmg becomes 0 or low (Hybrid builds)

2.) Ramp up time is slow but not in PvE any more(by force).

 

All this alone show from a technical stand point hat this is a failed design in the sense it  is never consisting or fair.

 

Lets talk real Arena.NET developers tried with each add-on to promote the use of condis in each game mode and again last and this year again.. I can tell players hated it and still do.

 

For PvP like others said the reason is missing condi cleans in the HoT times which is partially still there because sPvP in Gw2 has no dedicated roles like the game had in vanilla at all. People ignore roles because of this only in Platinum 1-2 people starts to take roles serious.  Yes there were also lack of skills for condi cleans for some classes but this is fixed atm .

 

Second reason for sPvP is the spam of soft cc especially Scourge/necro is here an offender chill is way too strong cc condi in this game . Together with barrier or shroud and it big live pool it is like fighting someone with 5x the HP pool of yourself. Problem is also that those fields pulse and push those condis/chill on the player again.

 

DH strength also doesn't come from SoJ but from the trap which force you to stay still and make it easy to attack you.

 

Dot damage is in every mmo, some how the GW2 community is the only video game game community that i know of that thinks like this. You too are proof of concept lol.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

nerf weakness 🥴 and chill 🥶

[Vancho.8750]

19 minutes ago, Genesis.5169 said:

 

Dot damage is in every mmo, some how the GW2 community is the only video game game community that i know of that thinks like this. You too are proof of concept lol.

Everyone hated Affliction lock and Shadow priest in WoW for the same reason, heavy dot damage with heavy defenses and being the most braindead boring speck in the game, it was probably designed by one of those harassers that got outed cause his pp smol.

Also dots usually are supplementary damage that doesn't hit that hard and soft ccs are not usually that easy to access so they and also spammable. Did you know that S priest had almost the same mechanic like ranger with roots, it was deemed way too powerful to the point they had to delete it since if they keep it they would have had to design everything else around it.

The other games also don't let their classes stack instantly several dots at once, one skill one dot usually single target.

In GW 2 it can be seen that condition skill changed their way of application when they were made viable option for harder PVE content, if the skill was AoE it had drawbacks to it. Condition skills got huge utility creep compared to their power counterparts even though conditions had 2 mechanics to them by default some have more. 

Scourge is the perfect example what condition speck is, everyone hates it cause it slows everything to a crawl and even if it is played on power it still keeps the dampening conditions, since it was designed to be condition speck. 

I dread the the next condition speck announcement, cause it usually has some gimmicky mechanic that is not balanced for pvp.     

[DoomNexus.5324]

2 hours ago, Genesis.5169 said:

Dot damage is in every mmo, some how the GW2 community is the only video game game community that i know of that thinks like this. You too are proof of concept lol.

Maybe because you can in no other game burst someone down with 100 different condis? You obviously didn't play during the condi mirage era.
In other games you usually only have a couple dots and they are either on long cooldowns or weak. The way dots in GW2 works is -> Almost every skill in your kit is stacked with at least 2 different conditions you can basically apply willy-nilly and worst of all: pulsing passively and/or on really big AoE. So even if you cleanse it just gets reapplied almost instantly. This is so demented it's not even funny. In other games the damage of dots is supplementary, in GW2 it's prevalent af. And here's another thing: most power builds actually synergize with condi focused team members but not the other way around. Even if my torments and bleeds and poisons don't do any significant damage, if they cover up 20 stacks of confusion or 10 stacks of burn of my team mate then enemy is kittened anyway.
Couple that with the lack of a traditional holy trinity where you have designated healers in the backline and you get a pure clownfiesta.

The only reason why condi builds are not considered meta is because people use the 0.1% mAT stuff or winning AT teams as an argument that condi is unviable in sPvP and completely underperforming.. But guess what, they usually always have a support in their team and people know how to play around their support instead of running away from the team fight like a headless chicken making it impossible for their supp to be effective.

So the thing is that if you have a good support or play a build with a lot of condi cleanse on its own then condi is utter garbage but if you don't have a lot of cleanses or stuns to counter play in your kit then you are absolutely screwed.

 

There are also a lot of reasons why condi is garbage in WvW but none of them applies to sPvP.

[Leonidrex.5649]

4 minutes ago, DoomNexus.5324 said:

Maybe because you can in no other game burst someone down with 100 different condis? You obviously didn't play during the condi mirage era.
In other games you usually only have a couple dots and they are either on long cooldowns or weak. The way dots in GW2 works is -> Almost every skill in your kit is stacked with at least 2 different conditions you can basically apply willy-nilly and worst of all: pulsing passively and/or on really big AoE. So even if you cleanse it just gets reapplied almost instantly. This is so demented it's not even funny. In other games the damage of dots is supplementary, in GW2 it's prevalent af. And here's another thing: most power builds actually synergize with condi focused team members but not the other way around. Even if my torments and bleeds and poisons don't do any significant damage, if they cover up 20 stacks of confusion or 10 stacks of burn of my team mate then enemy is kittened anyway.
Couple that with the lack of a traditional holy trinity where you have designated healers in the backline and you get a pure clownfiesta.

The only reason why condi builds are not considered meta is because people use the 0.1% mAT stuff or winning AT teams as an argument that condi is unviable in sPvP and completely underperforming.. But guess what, they usually always have a support in their team and people know how to play around their support instead of running away from the team fight like a headless chicken making it impossible for their supp to be effective.

So the thing is that if you have a good support or play a build with a lot of condi cleanse on its own then condi is utter garbage but if you don't have a lot of cleanses or stuns to counter play in your kit then you are absolutely screwed.

 

There are also a lot of reasons why condi is garbage in WvW but none of them applies to sPvP.

if your logic was sound we would have seen side-noders as condi specs, as you know. There is not a support to cleanse/heal you.
but we dont see that, we see core power ranger, and prot holo. Power Power Power.
You mention other games, doesnt matter, I can take an argument out of my kitten like malzahar that has 99% of its damage as a DoT, that kittening spreads on top of no counterplay point and click long range ulti. Nobody plays him btw as he is usually bad.
No CoOlDoWnS spammable condi, EVERYTHING is similar, where are the kittening cooldowns on power specs?
Untraited maul has 8s cd
Shrapnel nades have 6s cd
Refraction cutter has 9s cd
Radiant arc has 14s cd
Chilling iso has only 8s
other rev sword skills have ~15s cds
Where are the cooldowns on power skills? Its almost as if power skills have low as kitten cooldowns so condi skills ALSO have low cooldowns? If one side has a rifle, other side also has to have a rifle otherwise its unfair.
But you people are deluded into thinking that conditions are supposed to be this useless kitten that does nothing and gets kitten on by power.

[Arheundel.6451]

8 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

if your logic was sound we would have seen side-noders as condi specs, as you know. There is not a support to cleanse/heal you.
but we dont see that, we see core power ranger, and prot holo. Power Power Power.
You mention other games, doesnt matter, I can take an argument out of my kitten like malzahar that has 99% of its damage as a DoT, that kittening spreads on top of no counterplay point and click long range ulti. Nobody plays him btw as he is usually bad.
No CoOlDoWnS spammable condi, EVERYTHING is similar, where are the kittening cooldowns on power specs?
Untraited maul has 8s cd
Shrapnel nades have 6s cd
Refraction cutter has 9s cd
Radiant arc has 14s cd
Chilling iso has only 8s
other rev sword skills have ~15s cds
Where are the cooldowns on power skills? Its almost as if power skills have low as kitten cooldowns so condi skills ALSO have low cooldowns? If one side has a rifle, other side also has to have a rifle otherwise its unfair.
But you people are deluded into thinking that conditions are supposed to be this useless kitten that does nothing and gets kitten on by power.

Guess it's easier to aim your skill in a small cone radious ...than setting camp inside a chaos field/Mark covering the whole point...condi builds are insanely hard to play

[Leonidrex.5649]

19 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

Guess it's easier to aim your skill in a small cone radious ...than setting camp inside a chaos field/Mark covering the whole point...condi builds are insanely hard to play

for every braindead condi build I can name another brainded power build.
so hard to play prot holo, so hard to play power scourge, so hard to play power minion mancer, so hard to play power core ranger.
hurr durr Power more skill, me aim my mortar kit at my feet, im skill