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Claim buff killed roaming and high-level gameplay

Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited August 1, 2020 in WvW

Hello everyone. Point of this post is to prove following things about claim buff:
1. Overpowered stats: Gives too many stats thus affects outcome of battles directly. Basis for following arguments.
2. Players shun attacking: Defending is much easier thus mainstream.
3. Fights being less epic - Objective fights being reduced to only "points" and "farm" instead of epic largescale battles
4. Competitive scene suffers Fights between High level guilds, blobs and roamers, even pugs, often end up coming down to the wire. Unseen locational variance kills motivation to become better making them quit the game.
5. Promoting active defence > passive defence: There are better alternatives to keep attacking in line

Now those of you who played WvW before HoT and slightly after it, know that keep and tower fights were hourly occurance and often ended up in stronger side winning. Once a group managed to defend, he was often ready to take offensive instead of defensive like today. Commanders and guilds were more equally matched and things like Garri and EB keep were completely viable places to strike at while today they're suicide spots unless you're twice as strong as your enemy. Keeps were pre-sieged more and guilds fought each other inside objectives. Main difference however between this "Defending" and old "Attacking+Defending" meta however is the amount of cloud: Before you had no extra stats so to match enemy organisation, you had to organise yourself.

1. Overpowered stats

Lets see what claim buff itself gives:

  • 100 power + 100 precision
  • 100 vitality + 100 toughness
  • 25% movement speed

This translates to

  • ~8-10% power damage (depending if you're power dps or not)
  • ~5% more health and 100 armor (~ +10% survivability)
  • Builds not requiring swiftness or other sources of speed (random builds are often viable defending)

Now these don't seem like big numbers but do realise that it does mean that you have permanently 2 extra offensive sigils and 200 defensive stats (compare to stacking sigil). Needless to say, from sPvP we already know that 1 sigil already makes a huge difference in 1v1 or 5v5 fights if we consider the stats as 3 sigils, it wouldn't be weird to say that it affects all the way to 30v30 size considerably.

Presence of the keep
With presence of the keep these difference becomes even more noticeable:

  • 200 power + precision -> 17-20% extra damage
  • 200 Toughness+ Vitality -> Up to 20% extra survivability

Needless to say, as your players deal 17-20% extra damage and require 20% less support, it means 5v5s are actually 5v6s, completely impossible situation. Look at sPvP. 30 man guild fighting 30 man guild is actually fighting 36 man guild and if both are at level where neither messes up a lot, the side with the buff will win always. Do note that at high level people focus certain group of targets meaning boon removal isn't spread equally between everyone and the people you're damaging shouldn't have boons as long as you land the removals you got.

2. Players shun attacking

Well as there is advantage to defending, it is the smarter thing to do. But what is your response after you wipe enemy at your objective? Is it that you're stronger? No, even if you don't understand that it was the claim buff stats, your experience will often show that difference between fighting at your corner and shifting towards attacking enemy SM is a huge difference and often leads to you becoming a corpse. So by past experiences, some players don't even bother trying it. So not only is it harder, you also lose people because "not defending is too hard".

enemy vs allied objective
So lets say 30 man guild has amazing fights with 30 man guild at neutral spot, at enemy keep enemy will instead effectively have 36 players and beat you everytime. So they beat you and they should attack you after with their newly found morale right? But once they go to your keep, they're fighting against 36 players themselves and stand no chance. So summary of this is:

  • At allied keep you should never lose against equally strong group unless you mess up
  • At enemy keep you can never beat them unless they mess up

So instead of WvW being this back and forth gamemode where one or two good players logging in can turn you from defensive into offensive, you literally need to get a dozen of good players for it to make a difference. You defend your keep and try fight enemy open field, but it doesn't work out. What changed? If you do not understand it is the claim buff and the fact that some people leave/afk instantly, due to past experiences, when you leave the objective, it only makes everyone in your group more frustrated as nothing seemingly changed.

I only used 30 man guild as example but this affects small-scale, especially 1v1ers, slightly more. As top level player can never beat top level player that has 3 extra sigils in a fair fight.

This means guilds often choose defensive playstyle which means they "bore enemy to attack them" to get this massive advantage. They never hit enemy keeps if enemy has a commander/guild on the map unless they're going for easy points.

Defending also caters to lazy build making, while in sPvP people opt for mobility runes, in WvW often soloplayers run builds that do not have swiftness or other mobility. Then once they leave friendly objectives where it is easy to survive, they become fodder for the enemy. This means while good players often struggle unless on stacked servers, casuals are often happy just showing up when defending because thats the only thing their build can be decent at because the stats and movement speed provided.

3. Fights being less epics

Now that it has already been shown that going near enemy keeps leads into fights where you can easily lose against worse players. Now it was fine before claim buff because defenders had siege, respawns and ranged pressure to fend off enemies with multiple attempts. Defenders have multiple lives while attacker has only one while also having combat advantage that attackers can't remove

Current situation is comparable to running over a massive uphill just to find another one right after you exhausted all your energy instead of road being smooth with little bit bumps on the way

So naturally this has lead into WvW being played around towers and camps, less meaningful objectives. Keeps give enemy 800 stats so a commander will always choose to fight enemy at where they have 400 stats instead. Then you might lose against weaker group. Now this weaker group with newfound morale pre-HoT would push your tower but now you will one-push them due to the 800 total stat swing and you will have to go back to enemy objective yourself for constant uphill.

We have arrived into conclusion that WvW is always uphill for one server while another server can't match them on more equal ground. Also keeps are offlimits for fights making WvW play out more monotonously. This especially hurts organised groups for which losing is more painful.

Overall, one can depicts pushing enemy objectives as stupidity, because you're climbing a 100 degree wall when hitting a keep. Very very unfun and only power that keeps people doing it is nostalgia and the fact that it worked far in the past.

4. Competitive Scene suffers

Only spots smaller and even larger groups can fight each other on equal ground, unless 3rd server has the objective claimed, are:

  • NPCs on EB
  • Ruins on borderlands
  • In front of enemy spawn

Shocking claim: High level roaming and guild scenes are dead!!

Needless to say, with equally strong groups, one side having 3 extra sigils will always lead to the one with extra sigils winning. Then when you reverse the claim buff, the other side wins. Fights can't come down to a wire due to skill, but rather due to passive buffs.

Obviously this means there can be no power hierarchy between any group that is below 30 players, I would even argue it affects up to 45 players. Which means legends are dead, there can be no roamer above all roamers, there can be no guild above all guilds anymore. Guild/roamer with 90% efficiency compared to another can match them.

5. Promoting active defences over Passive ones

Active defences are related to things like time given for defender to respond, the potency of defender options and amount of those options.

Attacker can play around tactics like emergency waypoint, in ways such as baiting them out with an attack and showing up while it is on cooldown, and take down enemy siege with ballistas and trebutchets before pushing in. Quite simply, defenders biggest advantage is time given. If acs hurt more, they do more damage to enemy siege thus attacker needs to breach in less time. If wall HP is increased, the attacker will take longer to breach and defenders will have more time to respond to the siege.

So there are multiple ways to buff active defending:

  • Making pre-sieging easier: More defensive siege, more options to respond
  • Increasing wall/gate HP: Increasing time to regroup, the attempts you have to kill enemy groups, taking down enemy siege and settings up defensive siege
  • Buffing defensive siege: While this is annoying in a way, attacker can somewhat play around them by meteor showering arrow carts and building ballistas, trebs, bubble rotations and such.
  • Nerfing offensive siege: rams, golems and catas tend to survive 1 treb fire long enough to breach the gate/wall which wasn't the case pre-HoT. Siege HP but not damage to other siege was doubled in patch where condis were made to affect siege, which was an overlook by anet balance team
  • Nerfing offensive strategies that shut down most defensive options such as quickness guild golems and shield generators

So there are better options to keep attacker in balance that give not only defender, but also attacker, more control over the situation. Instead of relying to a stat buff that neither side can interact with. This would not only increase the interaction between players but also how often it would occur as attackers would be more willing to take a fight at enemy objective. Basically brain over brawn and more action.

By promoting active defences over claim buff instead of having 60 kilogram man fighting 80 kg one, it can be 60 kilogram men fighting each other, with both brain and mucle. There are weight classes for a reason.

Now a question rises to everyones mind:

Q: But we managed to take a keep from equal numbers of enemies and I felt like it was epic fight just last week!

A: There is simple answer to this: Enemy was just much worse and disorganised. If they were truly organised and made very few mistakes, they would have never lost. Now ask yourself:

Q: If you manage to have close fights within enemy keep, if you owned that keep and had the equal claim buffs, would enemy even stand a chance?

A: You can simply find answer to this by gathering personal data how fights play out when enemy or your team shifts from defending to attacking. You will often notice close fights become onesided depending on a location.

With this data, you will arrive into conclusion that there is no variance in who owns the claim buff if you get multiple epic close fights in a row. Meaning you're often locked at 1-spot. Do think about this:

Pre-HoT there could be fine balance in how close to ones spawn one finds equal fights, but claim buffs breaks this balance. If you managed to defend a keep, you were very close to being close enough to taking enemy tower, so instead of it your powerlevel being linear to distance to enemy spawn and which objective you're at, right now it fluctuates a lot. You can compare it to having a training/competitive environment where you face against anything from scale of elementary schoolers to professionals randomly, very very unnecessary and massive waste of time.

How should claim buff be touched

There are some options:
1. It could instead provide slight non-combat buffs like increased siege damage, activating gliding, lowered tactivator times, reduced amount of supply needed for siege etc. Things that enemy can play around
2. The stats could be reduced to a more reasonable level such as 30 stats each. This would revive high level competitive scene and claim buff could be used as small adjustment to give advantages to otherwise weaker enemy.
3. The radius of it could be reduced: Half assed solution. Wouldn't make fights within more objectives more epic but only outside them. Would help openfield, duelers and roamers a lot.

Afterwords

It took me about a year after HoT to start breaking down how HoT changed WvW. WvW overall suffered from introduction of claim buff as high-level guilds, commanders and roamers slowly disappeared from the scene. Some can blame metachanges but the epic fights are still there, they might be hiding at only one spot on the map instead of multiple like beforehands. Fluidness of WvW suffered a lot thus leading to experienced people stacking on a few server to get same experience every day. Open commanders often have varying types of leading and ones that prefer offensive gameplay in a server that has a lot defensive ones often end up having a bad time due to players not being able to keep up with the skill required and opt for only guild activity these days.

I truly believe claim buff, while seemingly irrelevant, is a plague within WvW and source of server stacking, as attacking now requires you being a LOT better than enemy combatwise, while also causing death of dueling/roaming scene.

It pains me that the buff isn't spoken about more. Yes, you can play around it against weaker groups, but that isn't the point but rather the fact it affects how players act, how willing they're to attack/tag up, the server stacking and the kind of people left in the game. One of the worst thing that can be done to a man is take away his identity, which is what claim buff does with the variance it brings: Making one feel unsure where he ranks at.

@Cal Cohen.2358 you said on Teatime that you read motly PvP forums so putting this here as you left it unclear if you read WvW ones

Riformed - On break from commanding
Diamond Legend
~Waiting for them to fix WvW~

Comments

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 1, 2020

    if I had my way, I'd probably remove most tactivators and upgrades.

    I think the Keep stat buff should only apply in the inside of the structure , not the entire surrounding area.

  • Widmo.3186Widmo.3186 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Tl;dr
    Claiming stuff is the least problem. Lack of balance, cmc that doesnt know what he is doing and most ‚balance’ changes occur only in sPvP leaving WvW behind (again after Feb patch), more stat combinations allowing ridiculous healbots and condi tanks, etc.
    Back in the days you could fight with any1 and it was fun. Now even if you play meta class, sometimes theres no point in engaging, because theres no way that you kill tank that stands in front of you or its gonna take 10 minutes. Kinda discouraging.

    Dont mind me, I just randomly spam 35 skill-buttons
    25.02.2020 edit - Nevermind, now I spam only 29 skill-buttons

  • melody.2601melody.2601 Member ✭✭✭

    Yeah, those few Stats are going to be the reason you lose a fight. :#

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Remove potion of karka toughness first.

  • You're wrong, it's not claim buffs that killed roaming and high level gameplay, it's the lack of balance and content.
    A-net made their first grave mistake with lifting condi limit in PvP and WvW and after that was downhill race without brakes with powercreep from HoT and PoF(still not fixed to this day btw).
    Don't forget about broken combo stats like Trailblazer, Dire, etc. which carry it's user and allows a lot of mistakes and still be able to get reward for poor plays.
    You also have poorly designed elite specializations like mirage or firebrand or deadeye or whatever, which shouldn't even be released since they're straight up upgrades to core. A lot of people lost interest in roaming because it's simply not fun to play as/against such boring, simplified classes. No tactic, depth, nothing, just additional unnecessary powercreep.
    Today I played WvW for like 30min max and I've met like 8 players, all of them were running condi, you really believe that I'm having fun with this kind of fights? Neverending because of too high sustain provided by broken stats and boring cause I have to pay more attention to my bar than what's happening on screen with characters.
    Another problem is lack of content, WvW wasn't really touched in how many years now? There were few events and that's it. There's is no point in defending objective if enemy have x2-x3 your numbers, no reason to fight for win beside going up or down to find other opponents to fight on weekend reset.
    On top of that you have some stupid decisions like adding mount to WvW and then nerfing to the ground, like, why even add it, if it become worthless hp sponge in the end(beside ofc $$ from skins...)?
    Lastly: lags, exploits, bugs, desync.
    GW2 as a whole had really great potential in becoming "something amazing", but devs focus on wrong things all the time.

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @melody.2601 said:
    Yeah, those few Stats are going to be the reason you lose a fight. :#

    Please, do reconsider how much 20% extra damage and survivability actually is. And it varies from side to side, so the difference is twice as potent and often leads WvW to stalemate between objectives.

    And do try to provide answer for following also: Do you really think sizable passive stat defences are good for WvW compared to active ones?

    Riformed - On break from commanding
    Diamond Legend
    ~Waiting for them to fix WvW~

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 1, 2020

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:
    You're wrong, it's not claim buffs that killed roaming and high level gameplay, it's the lack of balance and content.

    Needless to say there can be no dueling scene with 1 side having massive stat advantage, and that varying by ownership of nearby objective, thus dueling died around SM and soon dozens of duelers per servers turned into a few of those. Beating a person with 3 extra sigils worth of stats will lead to you losing quite heavily when they have it, especially if they're not running movement speed runes (claim buff) and you are. So dueling scene around SM died and same happened to every other place.

    This extends to things like camp flipping because there used to be camp flipping and defender scene in the past. Escorting dolyaks to get supply and upgrades going was also very important because supply played essential role in defending, not just passive stats. So as a roamer, you were guaranteed action, if not by other roamers, then by upgraders/scouts. Current upgrade meta includes very rarely scouts defending camps and one might ask why: Because attacking is so scarce (claim buff) and siege isn't needed to defend; Only numbers.

    So roamers do not only die to much worse players, they also are running on desolate wastelands where very few really care about camps, dueling, defending, attacking or dolyaks. Overall claim buff just reduced WvW from 24/7 gamemode into very few hours due to defenders just needing numbers, not siege or upgrades, to match enemy combatwise.

    Riformed - On break from commanding
    Diamond Legend
    ~Waiting for them to fix WvW~

  • Apokriphos.7042Apokriphos.7042 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 1, 2020

    Some thoughts:

    Sure. Get rid of defender bonus. But make it far harder to zerg objectives. Scale npcs to a greater degree based on number of enemies in proportion allies.

    I wish Anet would remove all passive traits and abilities. Just promotes skillless play and build and flavor of the month class reliance. Balance needs more of a self balancing aspect where meta isnt a single build or 2 per class but like 10 of them in every game mode. And one trait shouldnt be clear superior in most cases.

    As previously said endless times, in groups above 2, Power is the Meta. Lets not pretend otherwise. Sure, condi tanks are great at 1v1 'duel builds' but Condi doesnt even have a role when It can be instant cleansed by the resident pocket fb. And in most t1-t2 fights in wvw even most roamers run in packs above 2.

    Corrupts died when Scourge did, pushing us back into the boring slow and stack heavy boon heavy push pull pirate ship meta.

    Anet should never give more benefits to the side with larger numbers. Boons should have a smaller target cap, like 3, and aoes should have no cap, as previously suggested, punishing zerglings and 'meta comp' stacking, while promoting more skillful play instead of meta grp farming of daily hunters at spawn.

    Fractal instabilities such as Social Awkwardness would be great for both attackers and defenders alike.

    All in all, you have some good ideas but they are buried underneath your bad or ignorant ones. Wvw doesnt need more incentives to karma train. We should punish it instead.

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 1, 2020

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Completely ignoring the fact that roaming is still very much alive:

    What has "killed" roaming over time is the ever growing distance between the "hardcore" and the "casual" and the class balance causing such a stark contrast between organized and disorganized play. Roaming today fill an extremely narrow window of pretty much 1-2 man groups. As soon as groups grow bigger and gets the inevitable pocket healer (ie minstrel scrapper or minstrel firebrand in the current meta), any ideas of casual roaming gets thrown out window because congratulations you're a meta zergling now. Hell even for 2 mans I've seen minstrel fb + dps hammer rev combos run around and roflstomp randoms that cant even touch them.

    The separation of the "fight commander" and the "random tag" has also grown to extremes over the years. Anything that's not organized zerging is heavily frowned upon even when everyone cry for commanders like their lives depend on it. Because well it does, they cant roam for kitten. This idea that nothing exist between what is effectively roamers percieved as useless duelists and 20+ PPT zergs on discord means there are so many inactive people.

    It's like someone saying they are so thirsty they'll drink anything and you put a glass of water in front of them. They look at it say "I dont want that". You go "but you said you where thirsty?!?!". They just respond "but that's kitten water no one want to drink that!".

    I do believe there is seed of truth within what you are saying but you must understand that there used to exist a scene between casuals and "Fight commanders" in the past. Just currently it is nonexistant because attacking enemy objectives and defending yours has such a stark contrast. Yes, people might not observe it was the claim buff, but they can still recognize patterns of action and result. Once a person is aware of claim buff and observe old commanders logging in to live nostalgia days of actions like "PUSH SM, ALWAYS!", it becomes quite a tragedy. This is not the kind of WvW they became commander for.

    WvW has become survival of the fittest and from deep love of WvW, some commanders chose to become take the ultra tryhard fight route and by doing so is the only way you could actually attack enemy objectives every day, get a challenge and guarantee you have something to do. Lot of commanders however quit because they were not interested in the dance of baiting enemy to come to your stats because once you cross a that claim buff line, they know the fight is lost and it won't be even close. And to keep up such a strong following, you would have to tag up nearly everyday which obviously isn't in everyones interests.

    What I am trying to say is that Claim buff is what forced the separation of "Fight commander" and "Random tag". Lot of the issues within WvW arise from the fact that people are logging in for nostalgia and to seek old glory days. The meta is just not good and long good fights between servers don't last over an hour but rather end once one side manages to cap the first contested objective. I would even claim that these old veterans wouldn't have sticked around for long if they started WvW in its current state.

    Minstrel stats were another mistake that was released with HoT which definitely makes small and large scale kind of.... uff....

    Riformed - On break from commanding
    Diamond Legend
    ~Waiting for them to fix WvW~

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    Then delete all bonus stat buffs including bloodlust, guild claim, presence of the keep.

    Yup, this is what they should do.

    Also I don't believe this was the reason roaming died, there's been enough broken sustain mobility specs over the years to counter this.

    Roaming has suffered from multiple things over the years but the occassional roaming scene from sPvP has completely died out as dueling around SM is nonexistant and no one is really interested in camps anymore. Its basically a spiral of causing bad experiences in WvW for some people often leads to other people not having enough activity and quitting as well. Lack of commanders also increases amount of gankers and hordes of unorganised camp defenders seeking thrills that old WvW gave them.

    But I do believe some people within roaming scene would be interested in proving they are the best at their class if it was still possible.

    Riformed - On break from commanding
    Diamond Legend
    ~Waiting for them to fix WvW~

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 1, 2020

    @Apokriphos.7042 said:
    Some thoughts:

    Sure. Get rid of defender bonus. But make it far harder to zerg objectives. Scale npcs to a greater degree based on number of enemies in proportion allies.
    ..... snip ....
    All in all, you have some good ideas but they are buried underneath your bad or ignorant ones. Wvw doesnt need more incentives to karma train. We should punish it instead.

    My only idea in this thread was reducing claim buff and buffing active defences instead... Literally what you yourself typed.

    Section 5. Promoting Active Defences over passive ones suggests some ideas about how to buff defending so attacking doesn't get out of control. Do note that they did reduce AC damage, wall HP and other things after claim buff was introduced even though it was claim buff that made people so reluctant to play offensively unless in a stacked group. The same issue will exists until claim buff is removed or reduced close to nothingness.

    And please do not put words in my mouth, I never mentioned anything about karma training. don't think there is a single person out there who prefers karmatraining over good old long-term sieges. I wanted more fights around objectives and to have more linear and lenient difficulty scaling regarding location. Basically WvW should be more forgiving while also more interactive.

    I truly don't understand this karma train narrative that people have. As long as you play when sun is up after noon, tagging up to cap a few objectives is completely acceptable. If enemy gets a commander to match you, then you fight for mapcontrol and fun. But point is that someone needs to tag up first and enemy should have to match you, so there does need to be more incentive for people to tag up, if ktraining is what happens first hour before enemy matches you there is 0 reason to make it intolerable, just make it a bit slower while providing scouts more options to defend/slow enemy down. Losing and taking objectives sometimes is fine, acceptance of that only shows how much one likes wvw. As a commander it pains me when people really buy into this mainstream ktrain narrative, sometimes there just aren't enemies and you have to do something, not just wait for enemy to show up else you risk them waiting for someone to show up as well.

    Riformed - On break from commanding
    Diamond Legend
    ~Waiting for them to fix WvW~

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This isn't a real open world pvp mode. At this point most people are familiar enough with the maps and the flow of point taking where currently random havoc pickup groups are pretty good at just forming up real quick and moving out. So, keeping up to speed on the map people can even head off the action and set up properly or make decisions on what hot spot is going to be the most fun or the most bags. A lot of people kind of know what's up at this point and new WvW players have got better over time figuring things out.

    I agree about the claim stuff, the structure and siege equipment needs to be strong since that's the point of this game mode, but player builds shouldn't being thrown any more out of whack (especially since no ground effect projects the buff for a good visual) given each patch can be mostly fine or really dicey for awhile.

    Sometimes a build needs certain runes to make something work but you can still work in mobility usually. In WvW players also have to think about a build stretching out along different scaled fights and they might not get time to change builds often.

    I don't think defenders should be inherently stronger inside a structure, some good fights happen on walls and in larger structures.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 1, 2020

    @Threather.9354 said:

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    Then delete all bonus stat buffs including bloodlust, guild claim, presence of the keep.

    Yup, this is what they should do.

    Also I don't believe this was the reason roaming died, there's been enough broken sustain mobility specs over the years to counter this.

    Roaming has suffered from multiple things over the years but the occassional roaming scene from sPvP has completely died out as dueling around SM is nonexistant and no one is really interested in camps anymore. Its basically a spiral of causing bad experiences in WvW for some people often leads to other people not having enough activity and quitting as well. Lack of commanders also increases amount of gankers and hordes of unorganised camp defenders seeking thrills that old WvW gave them.

    But I do believe some people within roaming scene would be interested in proving they are the best at their class if it was still possible.

    I mean if roaming now is people running around in groups of 2+ grabbing camps, there's no real reason to attack them unless you have equal numbers, there's a whole lot less single roamers out there. The reason people are running in 2's+ isn't because of bonus stats, quite frankly I never think about the stats when I get into a fight, I only think about the classes and numbers in front of me, whether or not one or all are running broken sustain or not. When even the thieves are running in duos and I have no reveal on my class, there's no time spent about stats, it's more of I just ain't going to bother with that and move on and probably run with a group instead.

    Taking out stat bonuses isn't going to bring roaming back to it's glory days, there's other problems involved.

    ^ Another derailing post - Anet
    Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs. - Thieves
    /Stomps Mirage-Scourge-Warclaw, boon ball balance! - Anet
    No expansion money as long as Mesmers are trash. - Me

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @XenesisII.1540 said:

    @Threather.9354 said:

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    Then delete all bonus stat buffs including bloodlust, guild claim, presence of the keep.

    Yup, this is what they should do.

    Also I don't believe this was the reason roaming died, there's been enough broken sustain mobility specs over the years to counter this.

    Roaming has suffered from multiple things over the years but the occassional roaming scene from sPvP has completely died out as dueling around SM is nonexistant and no one is really interested in camps anymore. Its basically a spiral of causing bad experiences in WvW for some people often leads to other people not having enough activity and quitting as well. Lack of commanders also increases amount of gankers and hordes of unorganised camp defenders seeking thrills that old WvW gave them.

    But I do believe some people within roaming scene would be interested in proving they are the best at their class if it was still possible.

    I mean if roaming now is people running around in groups of 2+ grabbing camps

    Pretty much what it is.

    Dueling has never been true roaming.

    Again though, it has gone to such extremes due to class balance and I'm not talking about the favorite pinata of salty people that dont know what cleanse is.

    Just today we met a 5 man guild. Ok, alright, still within the confines of roaming, right? They ran around capping camps, sieging towers, fighting. Except well... 3 out of the 5 was minstrel firebrands. High level gameplay.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Roaming has "died" many times.
    Keep buff is hardly the thing to have killed it.

    Everything that can be pointed to as having "killed" roaming can likely be traced back to some form or another of facetanking. Whether its passive stance warriors, dodge spam mirages, sustain bot holosmith/weavers, boonbeasts, small parties with dedicated healers or even just simply downed state. In smallscale damage should kill, not healing.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Regardless if it "kills roaming" or not, having stat-buffs like that on a map is a bad design idea that doesn't encourage people to PvP in a PvP mode by creating differences that opens up gaps in on-map matchups rather than closing them.

  • Doug.4930Doug.4930 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 2, 2020

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Completely ignoring the fact that roaming is still very much alive:

    What has "killed" roaming over time is the ever growing distance between the "hardcore" and the "casual" and the class balance causing such a stark contrast between organized and disorganized play. Roaming today fill an extremely narrow window of pretty much 1-2 man groups. As soon as groups grow bigger and gets the inevitable pocket healer (ie minstrel scrapper or minstrel firebrand in the current meta), any ideas of casual roaming gets thrown out window because congratulations you're a meta zergling now. Hell even for 2 mans I've seen minstrel fb + dps hammer rev combos run around and roflstomp randoms that cant even touch them.

    This completely hits the nail on the head. Roaming is great fun until the 5 man that you've been wiping with your group of 3 decides to get one of their members to re-roll to a pocket healer. Scrapper/FB/Tempest doesn't matter. That 5 man now becomes an unstoppable force of nature, where your only alternative is to re-roll your own pocket healer and enjoy the stalemate, or avoid fighting them altogether.

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    As a long time roamer, I can say that until now I haven't heard of anyone complaining about the claim buff(s) nor blame it for the "death of" anything.

    Its the overall server stability and class balancing that did damage.

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
    twitch.tv/TRMC
    Lover of Jumping puzzles, Squirrels, WvW, and Taimi
    CLOK Commander and all around nice bro

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Sounds like the grps with 3 out 6 support classes trying to farm pugs at nc or something, then blame it on claim buff.

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 3, 2020

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:
    As a long time roamer, I can say that until now I haven't heard of anyone complaining about the claim buff(s) nor blame it for the "death of" anything.

    It is 8%+ damage and survivability for 1 side, it is enough to break high level in any game. Imagine 10% bonus for one side in any competitive game like AoE2, SC, OW, LoL, CSgo etc. Even sPvP. It is just busted which led to people stacking on a few servers just to overcome/enjoy (SM) it more. And if it would stop at 8% fine... But it becomes at least 20% difference within keeps and then that 20% difference can even swap sides depending on who owns the objectives.

    Basically as long as it exists, WvW is very one dimensional on who is the agressor and who isn't, there is no bouncing back and forth with epic comebacks.

    I do understand though it is hard concept to understand that it is actually twice as potent because it can swap sides while being passive buff that is hard to observe with anything else than empirical data.

    Riformed - On break from commanding
    Diamond Legend
    ~Waiting for them to fix WvW~

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Threather.9354 said:
    I do understand though it is hard concept to understand

    Its not hard to understand. Whats irks people is that you relate two aspects that dont necessarily relate or even need to relate. You say claim buff is too strong and killed roaming/high level gameplay. Many disagree. You could have left it at claim buff is too strong and most would have agreed.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • @Threather.9354 said:

    @melody.2601 said:
    Yeah, those few Stats are going to be the reason you lose a fight. :#

    ...20% extra damage and survivability...

    20%? LOL Come on man, you can't just pick numbers out of thin air!

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 4, 2020

    @Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

    @Threather.9354 said:

    @melody.2601 said:
    Yeah, those few Stats are going to be the reason you lose a fight. :#

    ...20% extra damage and survivability...

    20%? LOL Come on man, you can't just pick numbers out of thin air!

    Well precision and power have almost equal value in damage output and 200 power is between 6.66%-10% damage increase depending on how much damage you're running (between 2000 and 3000 power). While realistic number is more around 2500 power it would become 8%. So it isn't just pulled out of thin air but 10% is because minstrel players, that are dominant in groups, get way more than 10% from it.

    So yea 10% is for 2000 power which is about average of what your blob deals damage which. So total of 20% with precision. Now you can argue it is 15%, because some people tend to ignore the supports damage, but same point stands that is it too much as it varies from side to side. So in one location you have 15% more damage and survivability and in one location the enemy has. Doesn't seem very in line with competitive balancing.

    Now this applies fully to roamers but organised groups get little less hurt to it due to high stacks of might upkeep but regardless that might goes up and down due to corrupts and you can't assume the average to be above 14 might which will reduce the percentage from power but not precision.

    Of course people tend to go overly crit chance on Necros, weavers and Revs while ignoring things like borderlands bloodlust and claim buff while sacrificing 8% potential damage from their build just to get 100% crit chance while sacrificing lot of average DPS that the 230 potential precision would give you. So one 4th of the stats in claim buff aren't utilized fully by every group due to bad awareness of how frequent these stats are in WvW while being easily replacable by things like ferocity

    Now as you see, the numbers weren't pulled out of thin air. And I believe the phrase was UP TO 20% extra damage, which was true.

    Riformed - On break from commanding
    Diamond Legend
    ~Waiting for them to fix WvW~

  • @Threather.9354 said:

    @Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

    @Threather.9354 said:

    @melody.2601 said:
    Yeah, those few Stats are going to be the reason you lose a fight. :#

    ...20% extra damage and survivability...

    20%? LOL Come on man, you can't just pick numbers out of thin air!

    Well precision and power have almost equal value in damage output and 200 power is between 6.66%-10% damage increase depending on how much damage you're running (between 2000 and 3000 power). While realistic number is more around 2500 power it would become 8%. So it isn't just pulled out of thin air but 10% is because minstrel players, that are dominant in groups, get way more than 10% from it.

    So yea 10% is for 2000 power which is about average of what your blob deals damage which. Now you can argue it is 15%, because some people tend to ignore the supports damage, but same point stands that is it too much as it varies from side to side. So in one location you have 15% more damage and survivability and in one location the enemy has. Doesn't seem very in line with competitive balancing.

    Now this applies fully to roamers but organised groups get little less hurt to it due to high stacks of might upkeep but regardless that might goes up and down due to corrupts and you can't assume the average to be above 14 might.

    Of course people tend to go overly crit chance on Necros, weavers and Revs while ignoring things like borderlands bloodlust and claim buff while sacrificing 8% potential damage from their build just to get 100% crit chance while sacrificing lot of average DPS that the 8% more the precision would give you.

    That's funny, because the number crunching math academic raid min/maxers seem to think that 90 power from stat infusions only gives 2-3% more damage and (the agony ones) are not even worth getting (due to cost) because that is statistically insignificant unless you are doing perfect rotations on immobile golems, your standard variance will be greater than that. So at absolute most it could be 15% additional damage.

    You're also making the assumption that minstrel players are dealing any damage at all. I mean, sure it's theoretically possible that they should be dealing more damage, but in reality they are hitting hardly anyone. I know when I am playing my FB that I get like 10 bags all night and far less XP because I simply am not hitting other players enough for any amount of extra damage to be doing anything at all. Yet I hop on my Weaver and I'll get 5-10x more bags.

    I can be convinced otherwise, but just don't see it being that big of an issue.

    Also, defenders are already at a huge disadvantage by not being able to even attack from the walls without being nuked or pulled. If ever there was something to assist, a stat bonus is the least that can be done. If you are greatly outnumbered by defenders then the stat bonus is not what's turning the tide against you and if you outnumber the defenders, they need all the help they can get.

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 4, 2020

    @Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

    @Threather.9354 said:

    @Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

    @Threather.9354 said:

    @melody.2601 said:
    Yeah, those few Stats are going to be the reason you lose a fight. :#

    ...20% extra damage and survivability...

    20%? LOL Come on man, you can't just pick numbers out of thin air!

    Well precision and power have almost equal value in damage output and 200 power is between 6.66%-10% damage increase depending on how much damage you're running (between 2000 and 3000 power). While realistic number is more around 2500 power it would become 8%. So it isn't just pulled out of thin air but 10% is because minstrel players, that are dominant in groups, get way more than 10% from it.

    So yea 10% is for 2000 power which is about average of what your blob deals damage which. Now you can argue it is 15%, because some people tend to ignore the supports damage, but same point stands that is it too much as it varies from side to side. So in one location you have 15% more damage and survivability and in one location the enemy has. Doesn't seem very in line with competitive balancing.

    Now this applies fully to roamers but organised groups get little less hurt to it due to high stacks of might upkeep but regardless that might goes up and down due to corrupts and you can't assume the average to be above 14 might.

    Of course people tend to go overly crit chance on Necros, weavers and Revs while ignoring things like borderlands bloodlust and claim buff while sacrificing 8% potential damage from their build just to get 100% crit chance while sacrificing lot of average DPS that the 8% more the precision would give you.

    That's funny, because the number crunching math academic raid min/maxers seem to think that 90 power from stat infusions only gives 2-3% more damage and (the agony ones) are not even worth getting (due to cost) because that is statistically insignificant unless you are doing perfect rotations on immobile golems, your standard variance will be greater than that. So at absolute most it could be 15% additional damage.

    This is because in pve, we assume players have 25 stacks of might with perma fury and warbanners. They also don't have to balance survivability with damage either. Infusions only give 1 stat.

    Also in fractals, stats are further inflated due to potions and titles, which are a better investment so +agony/stat infusions come last. But then again most players are not paying 1500 gold for presence of the keep. And of course agony infusions only matter in fractals; if you did raids, you could just use wvw ones. This is why they're generally considered bad investments.

    That being said, it's probably not 20%.

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 4, 2020

    @Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

    @Threather.9354 said:

    @Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

    @Threather.9354 said:

    @melody.2601 said:
    Yeah, those few Stats are going to be the reason you lose a fight. :#

    ...20% extra damage and survivability...

    20%? LOL Come on man, you can't just pick numbers out of thin air!

    Well precision and power have almost equal value in damage output and 200 power is between 6.66%-10% damage increase depending on how much damage you're running (between 2000 and 3000 power). While realistic number is more around 2500 power it would become 8%. So it isn't just pulled out of thin air but 10% is because minstrel players, that are dominant in groups, get way more than 10% from it.

    So yea 10% is for 2000 power which is about average of what your blob deals damage which. Now you can argue it is 15%, because some people tend to ignore the supports damage, but same point stands that is it too much as it varies from side to side. So in one location you have 15% more damage and survivability and in one location the enemy has. Doesn't seem very in line with competitive balancing.

    Now this applies fully to roamers but organised groups get little less hurt to it due to high stacks of might upkeep but regardless that might goes up and down due to corrupts and you can't assume the average to be above 14 might.

    Of course people tend to go overly crit chance on Necros, weavers and Revs while ignoring things like borderlands bloodlust and claim buff while sacrificing 8% potential damage from their build just to get 100% crit chance while sacrificing lot of average DPS that the 8% more the precision would give you.

    That's funny, because the number crunching math academic raid min/maxers seem to think that 90 power from stat infusions only gives 2-3% more damage and (the agony ones) are not even worth getting (due to cost) because that is statistically insignificant unless you are doing perfect rotations on immobile golems, your standard variance will be greater than that. So at absolute most it could be 15% additional damage.

    90 power is 2% damage increase if you have 4500 power because 90/4500 = 0.02
    it is quite simple math, and you don't hit 4500 power in WvW. So if it is 3% increase in damage, 200 power is still at least 6.66% increase in damage, as I did say in my math. And yes, 15% is completely unacceptable if you want to have a competitive scene, even 5% is too much if it reaches outside keeps and towers.

    You're also making the assumption that minstrel players are dealing any damage at all. I mean, sure it's theoretically possible that they should be dealing more damage, but in reality they are hitting hardly anyone. I know when I am playing my FB that I get like 10 bags all night and far less XP because I simply am not hitting other players enough for any amount of extra damage to be doing anything at all. Yet I hop on my Weaver and I'll get 5-10x more bags.

    I can be convinced otherwise, but just don't see it being that big of an issue.

    Well it is true that minstrel players might deal only 15% of damage (600-800 dps) of very good dps players (5kish dps), however only a few of the DPS players call to that category even in bigger squads.

    From my experience Firebrand gets comparable, or even more bags than weaver. Falls short of necro though. You should use F1 tome 3 skill to pull enemies,, mace 3 and shield 4 to apply/remove aegis while applying protection, f3 tome skill 2 skill to taunt enemies and staff 3 to remove aegis while using staff 2 to heal allies that are the most in danger. Also mace 2 applies regen so dropping that symbol will guarantee tagging enemies. And also as you're the most sustainable person in the zerg with most stunbreaks, you should be able to tank something while tagging enemies with retaliation (that scales with power btw).

    Also, defenders are already at a huge disadvantage by not being able to even attack from the walls without being nuked or pulled. If ever there was something to assist, a stat bonus is the least that can be done. If you are greatly outnumbered by defenders then the stat bonus is not what's turning the tide against you and if you outnumber the defenders, they need all the help they can get.

    Defenders need more tools to take down the siege, not more stats to fight overwhelming numbers. They literally nerfed wall HP and siege damage, while buffing siege health, after HoT. I already suggested multiple options that would help outmanned defenders A LOT more than stats. Do note that Claim buff didn't exist pre-HoT and overall HoT just made both attacking (Stat buffs and upgrade times) and defending (Siege useless against shield gens, rams/catas too sturdy, acs do literally 0 damage and T3 walls are weak) more annoying. Especially since both are so much more rare these days because everyone already knows T3 keeps are just farming spots against pugs these days as you can't really have nice fights there anymore.

    My personal opinion is that whichever team originally designed WvW obviously put a lot of thought into things like upgrade times, passive stat strength (BL bloodlust), siege damage/health, population status and objective sturdiness, than whoever completely oblirated all that.

    Riformed - On break from commanding
    Diamond Legend
    ~Waiting for them to fix WvW~

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Threather.9354 said:
    My personal opinion is that whichever team originally designed WvW obviously put a lot of thought into things like upgrade times, passive stat strength (BL bloodlust), siege damage/health, population status and objective sturdiness, than whoever completely oblirated all that.

    Hahaha no. Anet got literally everything of that wrong and didnt correct it until we complained. Bloodlust is the best example. Original bloodlust was a disaster that really did add far too much stats.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Threather.9354 said:
    Hello everyone. Point of this post is to prove following things about claim buff:
    1. Overpowered stats: Gives too many stats thus affects outcome of battles directly. Basis for following arguments.
    2. Players shun attacking: Defending is much easier thus mainstream.
    3. Fights being less epic - Objective fights being reduced to only "points" and "farm" instead of epic largescale battles
    4. Competitive scene suffers Fights between High level guilds, blobs and roamers, even pugs, often end up coming down to the wire. Unseen locational variance kills motivation to become better making them quit the game.
    5. Promoting active defence > passive defence: There are better alternatives to keep attacking in line

    I think the overall differences in approaches is that you are coming at these statements as if defenders and attackers are on equal numbers, where as I would I disagree that it might make it to that level given time but will not start that way and the more we reduce time to take, the less likely they will be about equal numbers.

    Overpowered stats:
    First off I will disagree, it's much easier to attack then to defend and defensive upgrades are what allow people even a slight chance to try and defend when faced with more numbers. And again an objective should award some defense where as currently walls do nothing except slow attackers from reaching the lord. The claim buffs themselves award what the walls should be doing. The walls themselves have already faced large nerfs and the Time to Take has already been greatly reduced. The more that you remove defensive options the more you encourage K-Trains. Attackers will always have an upper hand because they will have the option on where to strike. If populations were maxed everywhere and all servers had queues all the time this might be different but in reality defenders will be at a disadvantage since they will more likely not be at a fight when it occurs.

    Players shun attacking:
    I don't see this so this must be a server thing. Defending pays nothing so if people don't attack they gain nothing. Where does this occur? Again I roam/havoc and will sprinkle in some zerg surfing but I don't ever see people forming up just to go defend, they might respond to a defense call but I never see anyone just waiting to defend. They are out attacking and will come to a call to defense but that is not the same thing. They are forming to attack. Even while roaming or with a havoc we will start to weaken a point or outright take down structures if they are defended or not. If the defenders outnumber the attackers than you try and draw out the defenders by moving off and drawing them into the open or you fish them off the walls down to you with pulls and such.

    Fights become less epic:
    The more you nerf defense the less people will defend. A fight will never be epic unless it can be more extensive which it won't be when one side first out numbers the other and then second if the defenders have no gain from already owning something. It just leads to a quick take down because the defending side had no time to react and get to the fight. Again the attacker chooses the time and place to attack. Walls were already weakened which means even less time for people to get there. If you want people to have epic fights you have to give them means to arrive at the fight before it's already over. On top of that we further reduced this likelihood by removing the added speed gain that mounts afforded to allow defenders to get to the fight. So now defenders have to be where they weren't and odds are good they will be strangling in and have better chances of being picked off before even getting to the fight by attacking roamers and havocs shielding the larger force attacking.

    Competitive scene suffers:
    I don't think zerg fights over objectives were ever competitive. Lack of updates removed more players than anything else in the game mode. GvGs shouldn't be done around objectives. If anything this is more a separate topic to ANet about GvG sPvP game modes.

    Promoting active defence > passive defence:
    You won't have anyone defending the more we nerf defense. People already don't want to defend if they have no confidence that they can actually defend. We see less scouts now because it pays nothing and you can't slow down a larger force so it's better to head out and attack then to scout and call for help. Scouts more are out looking for fights and will report on movements when in areas versus just standing around. But those scouts are out looking to attack something.

    Further more you have the following from another thread:

    @Apokriphos.7042 said:
    I am currently in a match with a server who is intentionally claiming almost no objectives to prevent their ascent into T1. Their Kill/death ratio is almost 4x the opposing servers, however.

    This sort of match manipulation should not be allowed under our current metric system. I propose that Anet take the Kill/Death ratio into significant account when determining future matches, otherwise even with the 'vaulted' alliance system that will likely come out with the expansion, servers that mainly consist of organized guilds will be able to prevent ascension into the tier they belong in by simply avoiding objectives.

    If a side wants to game a scoring system so that they face less competition then they should not be rewarded for it by getting easier matches and or fights when they fight a side playing the game mode and ranking up structures. There should be value in holding. A side not building up their objectives should be faced with more challenging fights. An attacker should want to attack an upgraded structure exactly for the reason that they don't want to fight a fortified position.

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
    TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/D2/HoTS/Civ6/CU/AoC

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 4, 2020

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Threather.9354 said:
    My personal opinion is that whichever team originally designed WvW obviously put a lot of thought into things like upgrade times, passive stat strength (BL bloodlust), siege damage/health, population status and objective sturdiness, than whoever completely oblirated all that.

    Hahaha no. Anet got literally everything of that wrong and didnt correct it until we complained. Bloodlust is the best example. Original bloodlust was a disaster that really did add far too much stats.

    Bloodlust
    Keep presence
    Plus warrior banners

    that's alot of stats to gain :) worth some ascended pieces.

    And only the server that ktrains can maintain this wich even worses the situation of population disparity... since most matches are big omni blob vs small group anyway.

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 4, 2020

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Threather.9354 said:
    My personal opinion is that whichever team originally designed WvW obviously put a lot of thought into things like upgrade times, passive stat strength (BL bloodlust), siege damage/health, population status and objective sturdiness, than whoever completely oblirated all that.

    Hahaha no. Anet got literally everything of that wrong and didnt correct it until we complained. Bloodlust is the best example. Original bloodlust was a disaster that really did add far too much stats.

    Yea, they should come back and fix what they broke with and after HoT. This is where they went wrong. For example it is obvious that the keep and SM upgrade times being boosted massively wasn't good for the gamemode. Now this could be simply fixed by increasing amount of dolyaks required for SM and keep, but no apparently having more important objectives requiring equal amount of dolyaks as towers is "easier to understand". Already 6 hours before primetime you can log in and see everyone have T3 borderlands. Then you can spend hour to reset a few objectives and risk getting rekt by ANY guild that raids around that time to defend relying on extra stats instead of siege that used to be necessary before. Overall you often just need to mass 60 people to do anything even during off hours which leads to people not even joining tags unless they already have 30 people in the bank.

    But ye, they just need to fix the stuff, simple numerical changes, very simple task.

    Riformed - On break from commanding
    Diamond Legend
    ~Waiting for them to fix WvW~

  • Offair.2563Offair.2563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Roaming got rekt by powercreep - class imbalance - and build diversity been thrown out of the window. Keep stats don't even come close to these.

    Don't argue with idiots, they drag you down to their level and own you with experience.
    Big Babou, Ranger for life.

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Offair.2563 said:
    Roaming got rekt by powercreep - class imbalance - and build diversity been thrown out of the window. Keep stats don't even come close to these.

    So this is one of those discussions that are complicated by trying to prove a negative. The reason for this is that is roamers that are no longer with us may no longer be on the forums and those that might be with us on the forums but are no longer playing are not up to date. So what you need is the roamers that are still playing and if they aren't roaming what are they doing, havoc, group, warband, zerging? Hence the trying to prove a negative.

    As a roamer/havoc, pre-balance patch roaming was fine. Post patch I would agree we lost a number of builds. But that doesn't mean you can't roam, I would disagree there, but the combat is just less interesting and a number of build aren't as viable as they once were. Now the question is are they all less viable now. And if so that might point to balance but that would mean they were all balanced before if they all took the same nerf hit but are not just less interesting and potentially less challenging to play.

    No I would say the balance patch was meant to extend time to kill in larger scale fights so talking about roamers isn't part of that conversation, but again asking roamers post departure will not give you a clear picture at this point.

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
    TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/D2/HoTS/Civ6/CU/AoC

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2020

    The buffs in WvW aren't that game ruining. The fact that stats like minstrels, trailblazer, dire etc exist on top of the most mobile class with stealth being the absolute best 1v1er vs any thing not a trailblazer tank makes WvW roaming zero fun until you're at least 5 man roaming.

    So I'd say gear stats and class balance is why roaming is dead.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    The buffs in WvW aren't that game ruining. The fact that stats like minstrels, trailblazer, dire etc exist on top of the most mobile class with stealth being the absolute best 1v1er vs any thing not a trailblazer tank makes WvW roaming zero fun until you're at least 5 man roaming.

    So I'd say gear stats and class balance is why roaming is dead.

    Dont forget marauders powercreep. Free vitality, pfff.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2020

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    The buffs in WvW aren't that game ruining. The fact that stats like minstrels, trailblazer, dire etc exist on top of the most mobile class with stealth being the absolute best 1v1er vs any thing not a trailblazer tank makes WvW roaming zero fun until you're at least 5 man roaming.

    So I'd say gear stats and class balance is why roaming is dead.

    Dont forget marauders powercreep. Free vitality, pfff.

    Indeed! Back in MY day we had 11k hp and we LIKED it(*).

    (* - complained about it constantly on the forums)

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2020

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Threather.9354 said:
    My personal opinion is that whichever team originally designed WvW obviously put a lot of thought into things like upgrade times, passive stat strength (BL bloodlust), siege damage/health, population status and objective sturdiness, than whoever completely oblirated all that.

    Hahaha no. Anet got literally everything of that wrong and didnt correct it until we complained. Bloodlust is the best example. Original bloodlust was a disaster that really did add far too much stats.

    Just playing devil's advocate here, but given old bloodlust used to give 50 power per stack for a max of 150 extra power (if memory serves, do correct me if I'm wrong), if that was too much then I can kinda see where he is going when he says 200 power from keep buff is too strong. Never mind the other stats you get from it.

    Edit; I do agree with what others have said tho, that while it is strong, the keep buffs don't really kill roaming. If you are building glassy you will die in seconds anyways, and I think it's foolish to make your build dependant on stats you might not have because a keep flipped under you. If the OP is trying to build his character assuming he will have these buffs as he has said, I can see why he thinks it's such a big deal, but it's actually him making these buffs have such a large effect by trying to build off them instead of seeing them as just icing on the cake.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ASP.8093 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    The buffs in WvW aren't that game ruining. The fact that stats like minstrels, trailblazer, dire etc exist on top of the most mobile class with stealth being the absolute best 1v1er vs any thing not a trailblazer tank makes WvW roaming zero fun until you're at least 5 man roaming.

    So I'd say gear stats and class balance is why roaming is dead.

    Dont forget marauders powercreep. Free vitality, pfff.

    Indeed! Back in MY day we had 11k hp and we LIKED it(*).

    (* - complained about it constantly on the forums)

    Didn't we have guard stacks from the defense against guards mastery? :P

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • ledernierrempart.6871ledernierrempart.6871 Member ✭✭
    edited August 7, 2020

    giving everyone a good ability to cleanse enemy boons would eb a good ,start to counter the boonball meta.

    @Threather.9354
    i do have a solution for Promoting active defences over Passive ones and making taking objectives more epic and impactfull.
    see here:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1250370#Comment_1250370

    the maps you will see are old ones.
    here is the better ones:
    Wv-W-frontline.jpg

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2020

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Threather.9354 said:
    My personal opinion is that whichever team originally designed WvW obviously put a lot of thought into things like upgrade times, passive stat strength (BL bloodlust), siege damage/health, population status and objective sturdiness, than whoever completely oblirated all that.

    Hahaha no. Anet got literally everything of that wrong and didnt correct it until we complained. Bloodlust is the best example. Original bloodlust was a disaster that really did add far too much stats.

    Just playing devil's advocate here, but given old bloodlust used to give 50 power per stack for a max of 150 extra power (if memory serves, do correct me if I'm wrong), if that was too much then I can kinda see where he is going when he says 200 power from keep buff is too strong. Never mind the other stats you get from it.

    Edit; I do agree with what others have said tho, that while it is strong, the keep buffs don't really kill roaming. If you are building glassy you will die in seconds anyways, and I think it's foolish to make your build dependant on stats you might not have because a keep flipped under you. If the OP is trying to build his character assuming he will have these buffs as he has said, I can see why he thinks it's such a big deal, but it's actually him making these buffs have such a large effect by trying to build off them instead of seeing them as just icing on the cake.

    Big difference though, since bloodlust gave everyone on the border that boost. Keep/tower buffs obviously only affect the keep/tower area. Since this was before we had the defensive buffs, it just plain gave one side a constant advantage - including in offense. At the time before all the insane powercreep, that advantage was pretty big too.

    Now I would say that if you "need" the defensive buffs, then the enemy is bringing a vastly overwhelming force - a force that cant complain over those defensive buffs when they should easily be able to balance them out (a little) by capping bloodlust.

    If they dont want to even attempt to balance out the defensive buffs... well then none of these arguments matter - they dont see them as a threat.

    It's sort of the same argument with a 70 man borderzerg attacking a T2 keep with 5 dollys left to T3 and the commander yells at 1 confused roamer to go take that T3 camp defended by 20+ enemies and 5 on each dolly. If the zerg dont see a problem in that, well then the buff of a T3 keep doesnt really matter, does it?

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2020

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Threather.9354 said:
    My personal opinion is that whichever team originally designed WvW obviously put a lot of thought into things like upgrade times, passive stat strength (BL bloodlust), siege damage/health, population status and objective sturdiness, than whoever completely oblirated all that.

    Hahaha no. Anet got literally everything of that wrong and didnt correct it until we complained. Bloodlust is the best example. Original bloodlust was a disaster that really did add far too much stats.

    Just playing devil's advocate here, but given old bloodlust used to give 50 power per stack for a max of 150 extra power (if memory serves, do correct me if I'm wrong), if that was too much then I can kinda see where he is going when he says 200 power from keep buff is too strong. Never mind the other stats you get from it.

    Edit; I do agree with what others have said tho, that while it is strong, the keep buffs don't really kill roaming. If you are building glassy you will die in seconds anyways, and I think it's foolish to make your build dependant on stats you might not have because a keep flipped under you. If the OP is trying to build his character assuming he will have these buffs as he has said, I can see why he thinks it's such a big deal, but it's actually him making these buffs have such a large effect by trying to build off them instead of seeing them as just icing on the cake.

    It killed roaming by indirectly reducing activity roamers can do:

    • They can't fight equally strong players at camps because those players will defeat you, the movement speed boost is especially noticeable (look at sPvP where everyone uses Speed/Lynx runes). I am sure you know from your experience that lot of good roamers are very toxic and don't take losing lightly.
    • Dueling around SM died. Duelers were cream of the crop. Put any top sPvP or dueler against another, the one with 400 extra stats will always win. And no one is interested watching mediocre players duel.
    • No1 threatening attacks keeps thus no1 defends camps and keeps eye on supply routes actively. Same applies to dolyaks. Do note that keep scouts are same people who defend/Keep eye on camps, so they're almost full-time roamers.
    • There is no being "the best" anymore. Most gankers and roamers these days are forced to run in small groups because claim buffs extra runeset already makes massive difference when hitting high gold levels in pvp, that is basically anyone that takes the game seriously.

    Basically while soloroaming itself might exist in form of ganking. Other factors are that people aren't pretty much needed to upgrade anymore as it happens so fast and much more passively than before meaning less people care about objectives and camps surrounding them. Overall Soloroaming often resolves around camps/duels, and that scene is dead. And this reduces amount of groups also as groups often form by having friends online at same time.

    Creating a build depends, for example it is a waste going 100% crit chance in a build for WvW while often you can replace that precision with ferocity and deal like 1% less damage without claim buff while dealing 5-10% more near friendly objectives (that is active approx ~40% of the time). It is just math and claim buffs extend all the way to open field. So usually on classes like Rev and necro that can easily hit 100%, you often wanna cut back 130 precision (claim buff + borderlands bloodlust) for optimal dps.

    My point is: Even moderate amounts of extra passive stats ruin any kind of PvP mode and WvW wasn't balanced around defender having extra passive stats. Instead they nerfed wall HP, tactivators and AC damage but we are still at same state of the game where little bit weaker defender wins always even without utilizing siege, lords, respawns, stealth, clouding and whatever. And no one who takes the game seriously wants to lose against worse players. Attemping to siege a keep one more time and possibly being repelled by enemy outbraining you with siege is much more tolerable than getting destroyed by weaklings that never activated their brain regarding defending.

    Riformed - On break from commanding
    Diamond Legend
    ~Waiting for them to fix WvW~

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2020

    @Threather.9354 said:
    It killed roaming by indirectly reducing activity roamers can do:

    • They can't fight equally strong players at camps because those players will defeat you, the movement speed boost is especially noticeable (look at sPvP where everyone uses Speed/Lynx runes). I am sure you know from your experience that lot of good roamers are very toxic and don't take losing lightly.
    • Dueling around SM died. Duelers were cream of the crop. Put any top sPvP or dueler against another, the one with 400 extra stats will always win. And no one is interested watching mediocre players duel.
    • No1 threatening attacks keeps thus no1 defends camps and keeps eye on supply routes actively. Same applies to dolyaks. Do note that keep scouts are same people who defend/Keep eye on camps, so they're almost full-time roamers.
    • There is no being "the best" anymore. Most gankers and roamers these days are forced to run in small groups because claim buffs extra runeset already makes massive difference when hitting high gold levels in pvp, that is basically anyone that takes the game seriously.

    Except, well

    • I still see people fight "equally strong" roamers in camps and win - and for myself, I always engage any solo target regardless of them holding the camp, I dont even look if its claimed or not.
    • I rarely visit EB (like once a week) yet there always seem to be solos/small groups clashing at the south duel spot.
    • I often run into camp defenders/attackers and have to fight them over it, while we loose T3 keeps to like 10 attackers because too few is on (well thats mostly DBL).
    • Sometimes I meet enemies that are almost impossible to win over. Not to toot my own horn but I can usually hold my own against dangerous foes and fairly easily tell their threat level. When you fight someone for 60s and both hps bouncing up and down only to ultimately loose, then see that same person kill a... lets say "weaker" target... in 2 seconds then yeah... he's pretty good. When you continously meet them for an hour or two, you know.

    So as a roamer, I oddly enough still see all that dead roaming going. Hm.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I’ve been too busy roaming to respond to this thread and I think that is pretty much all I have to say in response.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator