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[Suggestion] Stop making Story Bosses Hard (LS4 Spoilers)

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  • Einsof.1457Einsof.1457 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:
    You are joking, right? It is literally impossible to lose in the story.

    For you perhaps. Many many players have problems with the story, and do find it difficult.

    The story fights are literally designed to be impossible to actually lose... So what game are you playing?

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:
    You are joking, right? It is literally impossible to lose in the story.

    For you perhaps. Many many players have problems with the story, and do find it difficult.

    The story fights are literally designed to be impossible to actually lose... So what game are you playing?

    Although technically you're unable to lose the fights, continuously dying and ressing over and over again till the boss is finally dead isn't exactly enjoyable either. And not losing isn't the same as winning either in that respect. People get no satisfaction out of it this way and it makes the game less fun to play. Hence their request.

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • Einsof.1457Einsof.1457 Member ✭✭✭

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:
    You are joking, right? It is literally impossible to lose in the story.

    For you perhaps. Many many players have problems with the story, and do find it difficult.

    The story fights are literally designed to be impossible to actually lose... So what game are you playing?

    Although technically you're unable to lose the fights, continuously dying and ressing over and over again till the boss is finally dead isn't exactly enjoyable either. And not losing isn't the same as winning either in that respect. People get no satisfaction out of it this way and it makes the game less fun to play. Hence their request.

    So the main request in this topic is to have death cause encounter reset? I'm in agreement then.

  • Malafaia.8903Malafaia.8903 Member ✭✭✭✭

    we don't need "tiers" of difficulty
    we just neeed fights "fightable"
    stop with this idiot "die, npc ress you, die, npc ress you, end the fight after a boring scripted kitten"

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    Honestly if LOADS of players can do it, the problem isn't with the content.

    We don't know the statistics. I could also be true that LOADS of players can't or don't choose to do this content for the reason of the difficulty they have with it.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    Honestly if LOADS of players can do it, the problem isn't with the content.

    We don't know the statistics. I could also be true that LOADS of players can't or don't choose to do this content for the reason of the difficulty they have with it.

    Actually we do. If most of the players were having trouble finishing the content then future releases would have easier story bosses.

  • flog.3485flog.3485 Member ✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    Honestly if LOADS of players can do it, the problem isn't with the content.

    We don't know the statistics. I could also be true that LOADS of players can't or don't choose to do this content for the reason of the difficulty they have with it.

    If the story was really challenging then the LFG for Living story section would ber filled with lfg group requests.

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:
    You are joking, right? It is literally impossible to lose in the story.

    For you perhaps. Many many players have problems with the story, and do find it difficult.

    The story fights are literally designed to be impossible to actually lose... So what game are you playing?

    Although technically you're unable to lose the fights, continuously dying and ressing over and over again till the boss is finally dead isn't exactly enjoyable either. And not losing isn't the same as winning either in that respect. People get no satisfaction out of it this way and it makes the game less fun to play. Hence their request.

    So the main request in this topic is to have death cause encounter reset? I'm in agreement then.

    That would be a definite non sequitur.

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • Einsof.1457Einsof.1457 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2018

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:
    You are joking, right? It is literally impossible to lose in the story.

    For you perhaps. Many many players have problems with the story, and do find it difficult.

    The story fights are literally designed to be impossible to actually lose... So what game are you playing?

    Although technically you're unable to lose the fights, continuously dying and ressing over and over again till the boss is finally dead isn't exactly enjoyable either. And not losing isn't the same as winning either in that respect. People get no satisfaction out of it this way and it makes the game less fun to play. Hence their request.

    So the main request in this topic is to have death cause encounter reset? I'm in agreement then.

    That would be a definite non sequitur.

    Then help me understand what the point of this topic is. Please. Story events in game are literally impossible to fail... And people think it's too hard? Am I getting this right?

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Einsof.1457 said:
    Then help me understand what the point of this topic is. Please. Events in game are literally impossible to fail... And people think it's too hard? Am I getting this right?

    The topic is about story bosses not random open world event bosses.

  • Einsof.1457Einsof.1457 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2018

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:
    Then help me understand what the point of this topic is. Please. Events in game are literally impossible to fail... And people think it's too hard? Am I getting this right?

    The topic is about story bosses not random open world event bosses.

    I understand that. I am referring to story. I'm completely caught up and all story bosses outside of mord offer infinite ressurections at no loss of progress. How much easier can it get? How is this even a discussion. Any easier and you wouldn't even be playing. Does OP want just cutscenes as story and remove the game part from the game? What's the deal

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    The correct way to approach an encounter you find challenging is to ask for advice on how to beat it, either in-game, on these forums, reddit, or search youtube. Defeating story bosses isn't rocket science.

    Yet, what we see is someone having trouble with an encounter and instead of asking advice on how to beat it, they make threads like this asking for nerfs instead. This mentality of "I can't do it, so it's obviously over-tuned and needs a nerf" is what ruins games.

    I remember that thread where someone was complaining that the first story instance in Path of Fire is too hard for them. Turned out they were using Signets as utility but used Shout traits, even though they had no actual Shouts. To further complicate matters, not every build, or even entire profession, is well balanced around story instances. A Weaver is much harder to play in those than a Dragon-hunter.

    Instead of going "I can't beat it, it's too hard", being more specific "I have trouble beating Scruffy 2.0 on my Holosmith, please advice" will result in better feedback. Honestly if LOADS of players can do it, the problem isn't with the content.

    So well said. :+1:

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:
    You are joking, right? It is literally impossible to lose in the story.

    For you perhaps. Many many players have problems with the story, and do find it difficult.

    The story fights are literally designed to be impossible to actually lose... So what game are you playing?

    Although technically you're unable to lose the fights, continuously dying and ressing over and over again till the boss is finally dead isn't exactly enjoyable either. And not losing isn't the same as winning either in that respect. People get no satisfaction out of it this way and it makes the game less fun to play. Hence their request.

    So the main request in this topic is to have death cause encounter reset? I'm in agreement then.

    That would be a definite non sequitur.

    Then help me understand what the point of this topic is. Please. Story events in game are literally impossible to fail... And people think it's too hard? Am I getting this right?

    People think it's too hard because they die a lot trying to get to the end of the fight and they don't enjoy this. I personally do not find the fights too hard but I know that many people do and this would be the reason. They may be able to finish the fight, but it's a bit of an empty victory if you died 20 times or more getting there. It's not enjoyable for them. I think that's the point.

    So I would say that the issue is that these bosses are not as such too hard to beat, but that they are too hard for them to enjoy the fights. And people who tell them to git gud, clearly have zero idea about how different people's abilities and interest can be. That answer doesn't work for a lot of people.

    But ask them. I am open to their plight but I do not find the fights too hard myself. Too boring yes, but not too hard.

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:
    Then help me understand what the point of this topic is. Please. Events in game are literally impossible to fail... And people think it's too hard? Am I getting this right?

    The topic is about story bosses not random open world event bosses.

    I understand that. I am referring to story. I'm completely caught up and all story bosses outside of mord offer infinite ressurections at no loss of progress. How much easier can it get? How is this even a discussion. Any easier and you wouldn't even be playing. Does OP want just cutscenes as story and remove the game part from the game? What's the deal

    As @Gehenna.3625 said it's not about beating the fights, because everyone WILL beat them eventually, but about having no fun getting killed 20 times before beating the encounter.

    You can find my own take on that here:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/676477/#Comment_676477
    or scroll up a bit. To summarize, when someone dies 20 times at a boss, maybe it's time to ask for help. Since lots of players DO beat the bosses, it must be something they are doing wrong, and it's proven more than once on threads like this one (saying that the story is too hard) that the one making it made some grave mistakes in their build.

  • Einsof.1457Einsof.1457 Member ✭✭✭

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:
    You are joking, right? It is literally impossible to lose in the story.

    For you perhaps. Many many players have problems with the story, and do find it difficult.

    The story fights are literally designed to be impossible to actually lose... So what game are you playing?

    Although technically you're unable to lose the fights, continuously dying and ressing over and over again till the boss is finally dead isn't exactly enjoyable either. And not losing isn't the same as winning either in that respect. People get no satisfaction out of it this way and it makes the game less fun to play. Hence their request.

    So the main request in this topic is to have death cause encounter reset? I'm in agreement then.

    That would be a definite non sequitur.

    Then help me understand what the point of this topic is. Please. Story events in game are literally impossible to fail... And people think it's too hard? Am I getting this right?

    People think it's too hard because they die a lot trying to get to the end of the fight and they don't enjoy this. I personally do not find the fights too hard but I know that many people do and this would be the reason. They may be able to finish the fight, but it's a bit of an empty victory if you died 20 times or more getting there. It's not enjoyable for them. I think that's the point.

    So I would say that the issue is that these bosses are not as such too hard to beat, but that they are too hard for them to enjoy the fights. And people who tell them to git gud, clearly have zero idea about how different people's abilities and interest can be. That answer doesn't work for a lot of people.

    But ask them. I am open to their plight but I do not find the fights too hard myself. Too boring yes, but not too hard.

    Maybe they are using bad builds and it's not the content that's bad it's them for not putting in the miniscule amount of effort it takes to ask for help or advice?

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:
    You are joking, right? It is literally impossible to lose in the story.

    For you perhaps. Many many players have problems with the story, and do find it difficult.

    The story fights are literally designed to be impossible to actually lose... So what game are you playing?

    Although technically you're unable to lose the fights, continuously dying and ressing over and over again till the boss is finally dead isn't exactly enjoyable either. And not losing isn't the same as winning either in that respect. People get no satisfaction out of it this way and it makes the game less fun to play. Hence their request.

    So the main request in this topic is to have death cause encounter reset? I'm in agreement then.

    That would be a definite non sequitur.

    Then help me understand what the point of this topic is. Please. Story events in game are literally impossible to fail... And people think it's too hard? Am I getting this right?

    People think it's too hard because they die a lot trying to get to the end of the fight and they don't enjoy this. I personally do not find the fights too hard but I know that many people do and this would be the reason. They may be able to finish the fight, but it's a bit of an empty victory if you died 20 times or more getting there. It's not enjoyable for them. I think that's the point.

    So I would say that the issue is that these bosses are not as such too hard to beat, but that they are too hard for them to enjoy the fights. And people who tell them to git gud, clearly have zero idea about how different people's abilities and interest can be. That answer doesn't work for a lot of people.

    But ask them. I am open to their plight but I do not find the fights too hard myself. Too boring yes, but not too hard.

    Maybe they are using bad builds and it's not the content that's bad it's them for not putting in the miniscule amount of effort it takes to ask for help or advice?

    One of the biggest problems that GW2 has is that the build makes too much of a difference and it creates for people who have a hard time understanding the complexities or even take an interest. They just want to go through the story and enjoy the story and not be stumped by fights they cannot understand because they can't or don't want to. Whatever the reason, it's not the type of experience they are looking for.

    And when that's a small portion of your players you can say sorry, this game is about challenge. However, GW2 has been marketed as more casual and they've created some of these issues themselves and they simply cannot ignore the many casual players who are not interested in the combat system and its side effects.

    A lot of casual players play the skills and stats that they like. Not because they are good but because they feel it fits with their character and what they like. GW2 doesn't work well with that because they allowed the differences to be too big. Someone quoted a range of 2k-9k DPS. Assuming that's a fair range, this already tells me that it's too big. That creates the kind of problems we are discussing here.

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • Einsof.1457Einsof.1457 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2018

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:
    You are joking, right? It is literally impossible to lose in the story.

    For you perhaps. Many many players have problems with the story, and do find it difficult.

    The story fights are literally designed to be impossible to actually lose... So what game are you playing?

    Although technically you're unable to lose the fights, continuously dying and ressing over and over again till the boss is finally dead isn't exactly enjoyable either. And not losing isn't the same as winning either in that respect. People get no satisfaction out of it this way and it makes the game less fun to play. Hence their request.

    So the main request in this topic is to have death cause encounter reset? I'm in agreement then.

    That would be a definite non sequitur.

    Then help me understand what the point of this topic is. Please. Story events in game are literally impossible to fail... And people think it's too hard? Am I getting this right?

    People think it's too hard because they die a lot trying to get to the end of the fight and they don't enjoy this. I personally do not find the fights too hard but I know that many people do and this would be the reason. They may be able to finish the fight, but it's a bit of an empty victory if you died 20 times or more getting there. It's not enjoyable for them. I think that's the point.

    So I would say that the issue is that these bosses are not as such too hard to beat, but that they are too hard for them to enjoy the fights. And people who tell them to git gud, clearly have zero idea about how different people's abilities and interest can be. That answer doesn't work for a lot of people.

    But ask them. I am open to their plight but I do not find the fights too hard myself. Too boring yes, but not too hard.

    Maybe they are using bad builds and it's not the content that's bad it's them for not putting in the miniscule amount of effort it takes to ask for help or advice?

    One of the biggest problems that GW2 has is that the build makes too much of a difference and it creates for people who have a hard time understanding the complexities or even take an interest. They just want to go through the story and enjoy the story and not be stumped by fights they cannot understand because they can't or don't want to. Whatever the reason, it's not the type of experience they are looking for.

    And when that's a small portion of your players you can say sorry, this game is about challenge. However, GW2 has been marketed as more casual and they've created some of these issues themselves and they simply cannot ignore the many casual players who are not interested in the combat system and its side effects.

    A lot of casual players play the skills and stats that they like. Not because they are good but because they feel it fits with their character and what they like. GW2 doesn't work well with that because they allowed the differences to be too big. Someone quoted a range of 2k-9k DPS. Assuming that's a fair range, this already tells me that it's too big. That creates the kind of problems we are discussing here.

    I hate to say it but those kinds of people should play something else. If you don't have the desire to spend a few minutes to go in and think about your build then nothing will make you happy short of ruining the entire game at its foundation. If you want a ultra casual mmo try ffxiv. There are no builds, a strict trinity system, and very mundane and unintuituve stat and gear system. Their story cutscenes are voiced and engaging. For myself, my guild and my other friends ehi play we prefer the complexity and creativity of guild wars 2 and don't want to watch this game get ruined and dumbed down when it already is arguably too easy.

    Edit: maybe instead of an infantile mode they should have infantile servers to segregate gamers from watchers.

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:
    You are joking, right? It is literally impossible to lose in the story.

    For you perhaps. Many many players have problems with the story, and do find it difficult.

    The story fights are literally designed to be impossible to actually lose... So what game are you playing?

    Although technically you're unable to lose the fights, continuously dying and ressing over and over again till the boss is finally dead isn't exactly enjoyable either. And not losing isn't the same as winning either in that respect. People get no satisfaction out of it this way and it makes the game less fun to play. Hence their request.

    So the main request in this topic is to have death cause encounter reset? I'm in agreement then.

    That would be a definite non sequitur.

    Then help me understand what the point of this topic is. Please. Story events in game are literally impossible to fail... And people think it's too hard? Am I getting this right?

    People think it's too hard because they die a lot trying to get to the end of the fight and they don't enjoy this. I personally do not find the fights too hard but I know that many people do and this would be the reason. They may be able to finish the fight, but it's a bit of an empty victory if you died 20 times or more getting there. It's not enjoyable for them. I think that's the point.

    So I would say that the issue is that these bosses are not as such too hard to beat, but that they are too hard for them to enjoy the fights. And people who tell them to git gud, clearly have zero idea about how different people's abilities and interest can be. That answer doesn't work for a lot of people.

    But ask them. I am open to their plight but I do not find the fights too hard myself. Too boring yes, but not too hard.

    Maybe they are using bad builds and it's not the content that's bad it's them for not putting in the miniscule amount of effort it takes to ask for help or advice?

    One of the biggest problems that GW2 has is that the build makes too much of a difference and it creates for people who have a hard time understanding the complexities or even take an interest. They just want to go through the story and enjoy the story and not be stumped by fights they cannot understand because they can't or don't want to. Whatever the reason, it's not the type of experience they are looking for.

    And when that's a small portion of your players you can say sorry, this game is about challenge. However, GW2 has been marketed as more casual and they've created some of these issues themselves and they simply cannot ignore the many casual players who are not interested in the combat system and its side effects.

    A lot of casual players play the skills and stats that they like. Not because they are good but because they feel it fits with their character and what they like. GW2 doesn't work well with that because they allowed the differences to be too big. Someone quoted a range of 2k-9k DPS. Assuming that's a fair range, this already tells me that it's too big. That creates the kind of problems we are discussing here.

    I hate to say it but those kinds of people should play something else. If you don't have the desire to spend a few minutes to go in and think about your build then nothing will make you happy short of ruining the entire game at its foundation.

    Of course you don't hate to say that because that's how you feel. And I get it. However, there are many people who like to play games but for different reasons than yours. And they have a very different idea of what fun is. So why should they not play this game and enjoy it?

    So what if the players who prefer easier boss fights in story are 20% of the player base and what if the people who want it more difficult or at least have an actual fail mechanic are 10% of the players. Not real numbers but what if that's the case? Then your view simply is the one that would cause more damage to the game if it was followed.

    And since you can't please everybody at the same time, games like this need to give a baseline experience that is casual and then add separate harder content for people who want that. Trying to mix them into one, doesn't work.

    This game was marketed as more casual. Didn't even have raids to start with and it wasn't the original plan as it was. It was about story and personal choices and open world etc. Now that tells me that the people who are looking for real challenge are the ones that shouldn't be playing this game.

    Now I think that it's perfectly fine for boss fights to fail when you die, but the problem is that with the fights as they are now, this will cause a big problem for many players. And that might be too many for ArenaNet to want to take a risk with of pushing them out. Casual players are simply much more numerous than 10-20 years ago.

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • Ephemiel.5694Ephemiel.5694 Member ✭✭✭

    See, this is why MMOs and games in general are getting so ridiculously easy nowadays, people apparently can no longer handle anything with any sort of difficulty.

  • NOOO KEEP MAKING THEM HARDER this game is too easy. They need more dynamic maps too ... like desert should have over heat.. and cold maps need hypothermia. More diverse and challenging maps please !

  • Einsof.1457Einsof.1457 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2018

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:
    You are joking, right? It is literally impossible to lose in the story.

    For you perhaps. Many many players have problems with the story, and do find it difficult.

    The story fights are literally designed to be impossible to actually lose... So what game are you playing?

    Although technically you're unable to lose the fights, continuously dying and ressing over and over again till the boss is finally dead isn't exactly enjoyable either. And not losing isn't the same as winning either in that respect. People get no satisfaction out of it this way and it makes the game less fun to play. Hence their request.

    So the main request in this topic is to have death cause encounter reset? I'm in agreement then.

    That would be a definite non sequitur.

    Then help me understand what the point of this topic is. Please. Story events in game are literally impossible to fail... And people think it's too hard? Am I getting this right?

    People think it's too hard because they die a lot trying to get to the end of the fight and they don't enjoy this. I personally do not find the fights too hard but I know that many people do and this would be the reason. They may be able to finish the fight, but it's a bit of an empty victory if you died 20 times or more getting there. It's not enjoyable for them. I think that's the point.

    So I would say that the issue is that these bosses are not as such too hard to beat, but that they are too hard for them to enjoy the fights. And people who tell them to git gud, clearly have zero idea about how different people's abilities and interest can be. That answer doesn't work for a lot of people.

    But ask them. I am open to their plight but I do not find the fights too hard myself. Too boring yes, but not too hard.

    Maybe they are using bad builds and it's not the content that's bad it's them for not putting in the miniscule amount of effort it takes to ask for help or advice?

    One of the biggest problems that GW2 has is that the build makes too much of a difference and it creates for people who have a hard time understanding the complexities or even take an interest. They just want to go through the story and enjoy the story and not be stumped by fights they cannot understand because they can't or don't want to. Whatever the reason, it's not the type of experience they are looking for.

    And when that's a small portion of your players you can say sorry, this game is about challenge. However, GW2 has been marketed as more casual and they've created some of these issues themselves and they simply cannot ignore the many casual players who are not interested in the combat system and its side effects.

    A lot of casual players play the skills and stats that they like. Not because they are good but because they feel it fits with their character and what they like. GW2 doesn't work well with that because they allowed the differences to be too big. Someone quoted a range of 2k-9k DPS. Assuming that's a fair range, this already tells me that it's too big. That creates the kind of problems we are discussing here.

    I hate to say it but those kinds of people should play something else. If you don't have the desire to spend a few minutes to go in and think about your build then nothing will make you happy short of ruining the entire game at its foundation.

    Of course you don't hate to say that because that's how you feel. And I get it. However, there are many people who like to play games but for different reasons than yours. And they have a very different idea of what fun is. So why should they not play this game and enjoy it?

    So what if the players who prefer easier boss fights in story are 20% of the player base and what if the people who want it more difficult or at least have an actual fail mechanic are 10% of the players. Not real numbers but what if that's the case? Then your view simply is the one that would cause more damage to the game if it was followed.

    And since you can't please everybody at the same time, games like this need to give a baseline experience that is casual and then add separate harder content for people who want that. Trying to mix them into one, doesn't work.

    This game was marketed as more casual. Didn't even have raids to start with and it wasn't the original plan as it was. It was about story and personal choices and open world etc. Now that tells me that the people who are looking for real challenge are the ones that shouldn't be playing this game.

    Now I think that it's perfectly fine for boss fights to fail when you die, but the problem is that with the fights as they are now, this will cause a big problem for many players. And that might be too many for ArenaNet to want to take a risk with of pushing them out. Casual players are simply much more numerous than 10-20 years ago.

    There are thousands of games out there that those people can try to find what fits them. This isnt the only game in the world. Slight changes are okay but after the first trait shake up I'd cry if they made things even easier. Like I said ffxiv is extremely dull there are no builds or character choices really of any kind outside of asthetic. Let me have my complexity please.

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:
    You are joking, right? It is literally impossible to lose in the story.

    For you perhaps. Many many players have problems with the story, and do find it difficult.

    The story fights are literally designed to be impossible to actually lose... So what game are you playing?

    Although technically you're unable to lose the fights, continuously dying and ressing over and over again till the boss is finally dead isn't exactly enjoyable either. And not losing isn't the same as winning either in that respect. People get no satisfaction out of it this way and it makes the game less fun to play. Hence their request.

    So the main request in this topic is to have death cause encounter reset? I'm in agreement then.

    That would be a definite non sequitur.

    Then help me understand what the point of this topic is. Please. Story events in game are literally impossible to fail... And people think it's too hard? Am I getting this right?

    People think it's too hard because they die a lot trying to get to the end of the fight and they don't enjoy this. I personally do not find the fights too hard but I know that many people do and this would be the reason. They may be able to finish the fight, but it's a bit of an empty victory if you died 20 times or more getting there. It's not enjoyable for them. I think that's the point.

    So I would say that the issue is that these bosses are not as such too hard to beat, but that they are too hard for them to enjoy the fights. And people who tell them to git gud, clearly have zero idea about how different people's abilities and interest can be. That answer doesn't work for a lot of people.

    But ask them. I am open to their plight but I do not find the fights too hard myself. Too boring yes, but not too hard.

    Maybe they are using bad builds and it's not the content that's bad it's them for not putting in the miniscule amount of effort it takes to ask for help or advice?

    One of the biggest problems that GW2 has is that the build makes too much of a difference and it creates for people who have a hard time understanding the complexities or even take an interest. They just want to go through the story and enjoy the story and not be stumped by fights they cannot understand because they can't or don't want to. Whatever the reason, it's not the type of experience they are looking for.

    And when that's a small portion of your players you can say sorry, this game is about challenge. However, GW2 has been marketed as more casual and they've created some of these issues themselves and they simply cannot ignore the many casual players who are not interested in the combat system and its side effects.

    A lot of casual players play the skills and stats that they like. Not because they are good but because they feel it fits with their character and what they like. GW2 doesn't work well with that because they allowed the differences to be too big. Someone quoted a range of 2k-9k DPS. Assuming that's a fair range, this already tells me that it's too big. That creates the kind of problems we are discussing here.

    I hate to say it but those kinds of people should play something else. If you don't have the desire to spend a few minutes to go in and think about your build then nothing will make you happy short of ruining the entire game at its foundation.

    Of course you don't hate to say that because that's how you feel. And I get it. However, there are many people who like to play games but for different reasons than yours. And they have a very different idea of what fun is. So why should they not play this game and enjoy it?

    So what if the players who prefer easier boss fights in story are 20% of the player base and what if the people who want it more difficult or at least have an actual fail mechanic are 10% of the players. Not real numbers but what if that's the case? Then your view simply is the one that would cause more damage to the game if it was followed.

    And since you can't please everybody at the same time, games like this need to give a baseline experience that is casual and then add separate harder content for people who want that. Trying to mix them into one, doesn't work.

    This game was marketed as more casual. Didn't even have raids to start with and it wasn't the original plan as it was. It was about story and personal choices and open world etc. Now that tells me that the people who are looking for real challenge are the ones that shouldn't be playing this game.

    Now I think that it's perfectly fine for boss fights to fail when you die, but the problem is that with the fights as they are now, this will cause a big problem for many players. And that might be too many for ArenaNet to want to take a risk with of pushing them out. Casual players are simply much more numerous than 10-20 years ago.

    There are thousands of games out there that those people can try to find what fits them. This isnt the only game in the world. Slight changes are okay but after the first trait shake up I'd cry if they made things even easier. Like I said ffxiv is extremely dull there are no builds or character choices really of any kind outside of asthetic. Let me have my complexity please.

    Well doesn't that apply to you as well? As I said I don't need the game to be easier. I'd like them to take some of the tedium out of it and I've accepted that the combat system is something that I don't care to get into much and so I stay away from structured group content.

    I am saying I understand that there are people who have difficulty with the story bosses, I'm not saying I need those changes myself. At the same time I wouldn't have a problem with it either because combat difficulty is not what I'm here for. If I want that I'll play another game for that. Considering how the combat is set up here, the only thing that they can do to make the game harder is to make it more annoying/tedious. That's why I don't expect really complex fights and I find the combat system too complex for the game.

    I learned to live with that though, but it seems to me that GW2 is not the game to go to for complex combat encounters. There are a couple of fun mechanics left and right, but once you get what the idea is, it's easy to me. But I'm not everybody else.

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • Einsof.1457Einsof.1457 Member ✭✭✭

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:
    You are joking, right? It is literally impossible to lose in the story.

    For you perhaps. Many many players have problems with the story, and do find it difficult.

    The story fights are literally designed to be impossible to actually lose... So what game are you playing?

    Although technically you're unable to lose the fights, continuously dying and ressing over and over again till the boss is finally dead isn't exactly enjoyable either. And not losing isn't the same as winning either in that respect. People get no satisfaction out of it this way and it makes the game less fun to play. Hence their request.

    So the main request in this topic is to have death cause encounter reset? I'm in agreement then.

    That would be a definite non sequitur.

    Then help me understand what the point of this topic is. Please. Story events in game are literally impossible to fail... And people think it's too hard? Am I getting this right?

    People think it's too hard because they die a lot trying to get to the end of the fight and they don't enjoy this. I personally do not find the fights too hard but I know that many people do and this would be the reason. They may be able to finish the fight, but it's a bit of an empty victory if you died 20 times or more getting there. It's not enjoyable for them. I think that's the point.

    So I would say that the issue is that these bosses are not as such too hard to beat, but that they are too hard for them to enjoy the fights. And people who tell them to git gud, clearly have zero idea about how different people's abilities and interest can be. That answer doesn't work for a lot of people.

    But ask them. I am open to their plight but I do not find the fights too hard myself. Too boring yes, but not too hard.

    Maybe they are using bad builds and it's not the content that's bad it's them for not putting in the miniscule amount of effort it takes to ask for help or advice?

    One of the biggest problems that GW2 has is that the build makes too much of a difference and it creates for people who have a hard time understanding the complexities or even take an interest. They just want to go through the story and enjoy the story and not be stumped by fights they cannot understand because they can't or don't want to. Whatever the reason, it's not the type of experience they are looking for.

    And when that's a small portion of your players you can say sorry, this game is about challenge. However, GW2 has been marketed as more casual and they've created some of these issues themselves and they simply cannot ignore the many casual players who are not interested in the combat system and its side effects.

    A lot of casual players play the skills and stats that they like. Not because they are good but because they feel it fits with their character and what they like. GW2 doesn't work well with that because they allowed the differences to be too big. Someone quoted a range of 2k-9k DPS. Assuming that's a fair range, this already tells me that it's too big. That creates the kind of problems we are discussing here.

    I hate to say it but those kinds of people should play something else. If you don't have the desire to spend a few minutes to go in and think about your build then nothing will make you happy short of ruining the entire game at its foundation.

    Of course you don't hate to say that because that's how you feel. And I get it. However, there are many people who like to play games but for different reasons than yours. And they have a very different idea of what fun is. So why should they not play this game and enjoy it?

    So what if the players who prefer easier boss fights in story are 20% of the player base and what if the people who want it more difficult or at least have an actual fail mechanic are 10% of the players. Not real numbers but what if that's the case? Then your view simply is the one that would cause more damage to the game if it was followed.

    And since you can't please everybody at the same time, games like this need to give a baseline experience that is casual and then add separate harder content for people who want that. Trying to mix them into one, doesn't work.

    This game was marketed as more casual. Didn't even have raids to start with and it wasn't the original plan as it was. It was about story and personal choices and open world etc. Now that tells me that the people who are looking for real challenge are the ones that shouldn't be playing this game.

    Now I think that it's perfectly fine for boss fights to fail when you die, but the problem is that with the fights as they are now, this will cause a big problem for many players. And that might be too many for ArenaNet to want to take a risk with of pushing them out. Casual players are simply much more numerous than 10-20 years ago.

    There are thousands of games out there that those people can try to find what fits them. This isnt the only game in the world. Slight changes are okay but after the first trait shake up I'd cry if they made things even easier. Like I said ffxiv is extremely dull there are no builds or character choices really of any kind outside of asthetic. Let me have my complexity please.

    Well doesn't that apply to you as well? As I said I don't need the game to be easier. I'd like them to take some of the tedium out of it and I've accepted that the combat system is something that I don't care to get into much and so I stay away from structured group content.

    I am saying I understand that there are people who have difficulty with the story bosses, I'm not saying I need those changes myself. At the same time I wouldn't have a problem with it either because combat difficulty is not what I'm here for. If I want that I'll play another game for that. Considering how the combat is set up here, the only thing that they can do to make the game harder is to make it more annoying/tedious. That's why I don't expect really complex fights and I find the combat system too complex for the game.

    I learned to live with that though, but it seems to me that GW2 is not the game to go to for complex combat encounters. There are a couple of fun mechanics left and right, but once you get what the idea is, it's easy to me. But I'm not everybody else.

    It does apply to me as well but I'd rather game devs make what they want to make over the whaling of forum nerds like us at the end of the day.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    This game was marketed as more casual. Didn't even have raids to start with and it wasn't the original plan as it was. It was about story and personal choices and open world etc. Now that tells me that the people who are looking for real challenge are the ones that shouldn't be playing this game.

    You don't really remember the original plan then because they clearly said that their dungeons and the Orr Temples will be content for those that enjoy Raids in other games. It didn't start with Raids, but it started with content that was supposed to be their version of raiding. Let's not twist the original plan now shall we?
    The game was marketed as casual in terms of you can stop and return back without feeling like you are missing something, no gear treadmill and no monthly fees. There wasn't a single advertisement or developer comment during the release of the game saying "this is going to be the perfect game for those that want an easy time". Not once.

    Now that the marketing part is out of the way, I hope, the main problem with "catering" to those asking for easier content is that the content itself isn't the problem, but the players. And not talking about their skill or reaction time, but their build choice. You can't possibly tell me that the game should be created so someone with zero synergy and zero effort in their build (like that guy using only signets but only having shout traits) can beat them. That's insanity and leads to content for dumb people.

    Instead of asking for the game to be reduced to a snooze fest, why not put some effort to explain the mechanics better? Why not those having difficulty in beating certain encounters come on the forums and ask for help? This is also a fault of the community too, because there are only guides for Raids and Fractal CMs out there and not guides on how to beat Caudecus or Scruffy 2.0

    For example, the OP claims that Braham never uses his shield. He always used it when I played Scruffy and I stuck with him and blocked most of the projectiles. Further, by staying close to Braham at all times he can revive you really fast so you can't die. This isn't even corpse running because he can revive you faster than Scruffy can kill you so simply don't die all the time, or get to the outside platforms and wait for the downed penalty to disappear. Yes the battle with Scruffy 2.0 can be overwhelming with effects and projectiles, but in the end, once you find its gimmick, it's not so hard and it does contain a very good fail safe.

  • The problem with story is simple. Every player get their own "skill level". For 50 players story may by too hard, but for 100 another it gonna be way too easy. For me they got it pretty nice.

    I never was a kind of hardcore player in gw2. Also i NEVER look or even check meta battle build or another piece of.... just bcs of fact that i get my own brain and i can create something on my own. All you have to do is to understand the very basic of combat - conditions, boons, cc, how to deal dmg and how to survive (heals, evades, blocks, anything). Nothing more. I go through all stories on many classes, and there was the only 1 thing i have to start from beginning. End of HoT story, when one of the bosses knock you up in air... that high that you go outside of the map and get kick from story. If we exclude this one, then i never have to start the same fight twice.

    And its nothing compared even to T3 fractals, dont mention about T4 or raids. I know there might be people that want it easier.. but then the question is : are you sure you pick the right class for you? Or maybe give a try to something that you dont even think about? Idk, maybe its time for new (for you) weapon? Maybe its time to make armor with one stat set + same runes? there is a lot of things to change. If you cant make it bcs of lack survivability then maybe change 1 specialization into something for healing/tanking? It helps a lot when playing solo where you have to deal dmg, heal and tank by yourself, and also cost you nothing but time and a little of thinking :)

    And sure, i bet someone might not be able to kill boss at first. But im not gonna belive that someone try boss few times and still cant adapt. If we will follow this then boss would be just like training golem. Bcs even without aa and with one small AoE it might be too hard. And yes, i know you play just for story/fun. But when you play single player games like gothic you will blame it for being hard just bcs you deny buying better items from merchant or drop it? If you do so, then sorry but blame is on you, not on game. For the same i can blame Call of Duty bcs i cant sneak and avoid the fight and game is too hard for me to play like that.

    People please, play the game the way it was meant to be played. And im just talking about using basic systems in game like runes, food/potions, boosters (you get them A LOT from daily rewards)... If you will use all of these and you will be able to tell general idea of your build (not like "i choose these bcs first is up, second middle and third down, and it look so amazing"), then i can assure you will be able to do all content without raids and T4 fractals with ease. It dont even have to be "meta" build, as i mention above - i hate even the general idea of "meta" bcs of it most players dont have to think on themself

  • I've been working to understand & improve builds for few months now.
    Still can't say, I know what I'm doing but so far, I do more reading than playing.

    Died 25times to mouth of Zhaitan-KitManse (got him down to 34%-had to leave), can't move quickly...the
    fight is longgg/solo, for me...Embarassingly, took the advice here to LFG. Had not done this before.

    Fumbled with Chat/Group, Someone showed up in 5min!
    Went in-got it done but, sheesh (felt badly). Still, will be shy to look at the next one.
    Maybe should do another LFG just to get the Chat down! Lol.

    The people in this game helping others, are remarkable.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I still think the most surprising thing about the difficulty in this game is that a good player will do 5 times the amount of damage as an average player, that tells me something about this game way more than the difficulty of said game. If the average player was doing 2.5, or 1.5 times less than a good player imagine how many less complaints we would have!

    Amana Silentchild; My Main
    Ember Wandertooth; The Kingslayer, Kianda Redpaw; The Blazing Light
    Why GW is Called Guildwars

  • @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:
    You are joking, right? It is literally impossible to lose in the story.

    For you perhaps. Many many players have problems with the story, and do find it difficult.

    The story fights are literally designed to be impossible to actually lose... So what game are you playing?

    Although technically you're unable to lose the fights, continuously dying and ressing over and over again till the boss is finally dead isn't exactly enjoyable either. And not losing isn't the same as winning either in that respect. People get no satisfaction out of it this way and it makes the game less fun to play. Hence their request.

    Your request would also make the game less fun to play. The fact that you literally cannot fail is compRomise enough, in my opinion.

  • Rhyse.8179Rhyse.8179 Member ✭✭✭

    If they are too hard for some players, that should be fine. In fact, it should be the intended design goal. Isn't this supposed to be a social game? A hard boss is just incentive to bring a friend or two.

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dante.1763 said:
    I still think the most surprising thing about the difficulty in this game is that a good player will do 5 times the amount of damage as an average player, that tells me something about this game way more than the difficulty of said game. If the average player was doing 2.5, or 1.5 times less than a good player imagine how many less complaints we would have!

    Honestly, that differential is almost made up entirely by a barrier of knowledge and not mechanical prowess. (with a few exceptions like engi and sword weaver). Deadeye DPS is literally 3 buttons. It's just that most players don't care enough to seek out that knowledge and then make excuses when their toughness vitality gear gets them stuck in a boss fight 10x longer than intended. If more people actually had a growth mindset and realize that maybe there's something they don't know/understand we wouldn't have such a huge gap.

    If players enjoy being a meaty tank and not knowing what their traits do, then they are opting into a terrible experience completely of their own volition.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    if they arent hard, why do these threads keep popping up?
    "you need to overcome challenges.but this game isnt challenging"...what?
    so a challenge isnt challenging? please explain that one

    The correct way to approach an encounter you find challenging is to ask for advice on how to beat it, either in-game, on these forums, reddit, or search youtube. Defeating story bosses isn't rocket science.

    Yet, what we see is someone having trouble with an encounter and instead of asking advice on how to beat it, they make threads like this asking for nerfs instead. This mentality of "I can't do it, so it's obviously over-tuned and needs a nerf" is what ruins games.

    I remember that thread where someone was complaining that the first story instance in Path of Fire is too hard for them. Turned out they were using Signets as utility but used Shout traits, even though they had no actual Shouts. To further complicate matters, not every build, or even entire profession, is well balanced around story instances. A Weaver is much harder to play in those than a Dragon-hunter.

    Instead of going "I can't beat it, it's too hard", being more specific "I have trouble beating Scruffy 2.0 on my Holosmith, please advice" will result in better feedback. Honestly if LOADS of players can do it, the problem isn't with the content.

    this is a entertainment product, being functional, i.e "beatable" by the majority of consumers is the bare minimum
    but most players wont pay for that pleasure, they actually want to have fun too
    and rezz rushing isnt fun...it lets me do the content, but i have more "fun" doing my chores
    spamming chat for a group, and waiting isnt fun either
    and, as you said, the abysmal class balance is a major factor too
    this thread is evidence, that the content IS the problem....but even if it wasnt...what then?
    that would mean, that they have made the right game for the wrong people, yes?

  • @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:
    I still think the most surprising thing about the difficulty in this game is that a good player will do 5 times the amount of damage as an average player, that tells me something about this game way more than the difficulty of said game. If the average player was doing 2.5, or 1.5 times less than a good player imagine how many less complaints we would have!

    Honestly, that differential is almost made up entirely by a barrier of knowledge and not mechanical prowess. (with a few exceptions like engi and sword weaver). Deadeye DPS is literally 3 buttons. It's just that most players don't care enough to seek out that knowledge and then make excuses when their toughness vitality gear gets them stuck in a boss fight 10x longer than intended. If more people actually had a growth mindset and realize that maybe there's something they don't know/understand we wouldn't have such a huge gap.

    If players enjoy being a meaty tank and not knowing what their traits do, then they are opting into a terrible experience completely of their own volition.

    Agreed. The differential in chess is probably far greater than 5x. And probably for all sorts of other human endeavors. The fact that there's a differential doesn't tell us anything other than that player skill matters. And for a lot of players, that's a good thing.

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    this thread is evidence, that the content IS the problem....but even if it wasnt...what then?
    that would mean, that they have made the right game for the wrong people, yes?

    I need to nail these 2 planks together but my no matter how hard I smash my kitchen sink on the nails I just can't seem to do the job. Something must be wrong with the nails.

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2018

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    This game was marketed as more casual. Didn't even have raids to start with and it wasn't the original plan as it was. It was about story and personal choices and open world etc. Now that tells me that the people who are looking for real challenge are the ones that shouldn't be playing this game.

    You don't really remember the original plan then because they clearly said that their dungeons and the Orr Temples will be content for those that enjoy Raids in other games. It didn't start with Raids, but it started with content that was supposed to be their version of raiding. Let's not twist the original plan now shall we?
    The game was marketed as casual in terms of you can stop and return back without feeling like you are missing something, no gear treadmill and no monthly fees. There wasn't a single advertisement or developer comment during the release of the game saying "this is going to be the perfect game for those that want an easy time". Not once.

    Now that the marketing part is out of the way, I hope, the main problem with "catering" to those asking for easier content is that the content itself isn't the problem, but the players. And not talking about their skill or reaction time, but their build choice. You can't possibly tell me that the game should be created so someone with zero synergy and zero effort in their build (like that guy using only signets but only having shout traits) can beat them. That's insanity and leads to content for dumb people.

    Instead of asking for the game to be reduced to a snooze fest, why not put some effort to explain the mechanics better? Why not those having difficulty in beating certain encounters come on the forums and ask for help? This is also a fault of the community too, because there are only guides for Raids and Fractal CMs out there and not guides on how to beat Caudecus or Scruffy 2.0

    For example, the OP claims that Braham never uses his shield. He always used it when I played Scruffy and I stuck with him and blocked most of the projectiles. Further, by staying close to Braham at all times he can revive you really fast so you can't die. This isn't even corpse running because he can revive you faster than Scruffy can kill you so simply don't die all the time, or get to the outside platforms and wait for the downed penalty to disappear. Yes the battle with Scruffy 2.0 can be overwhelming with effects and projectiles, but in the end, once you find its gimmick, it's not so hard and it does contain a very good fail safe.

    I didn't twist it. Clearly saying that dungeons were for people who enjoyed raids was just a marketing spin to appease certain people. The dungeons never got anywhere near raiding. I posted a link here not too long ago with a blog from this site from like 2012 or 2013 and there they laid out their plans, without a single mention of raids. Saying they were planning them because they didn't say literally "we won't do raids" is twisting words. They were fully detailing on how they were basically going to do more of the same basically of what the game already had.

    The truth is that there is very little in this game that is actually difficult to beat. Now it may be at times more difficult to beat without dying once or twice or getting downed but most of what is challenging is just annoyance factors. Things like exaggerated aggro, mobs that instantly shoot you off your mount, cc skills that slow you for 10 seconds after combat is done, etc. Oh and some bosses have gotten he ability to one shot you into death rather than a downed state and of course the is the contested waypoint thing and even standard mobs throwing big circles faster than you can generate endurance.

    Also we're not talking about the game but about the story bosses. And yes, the baseline for story should be easier if too many people struggle with it. But I do not know if that point has been reached but if so... That's why I'm more a proponent of a story and hard mode version of those bosses than having this one-size-doesn't-fit-anyone solution. Let's be honest, casual players aren't happy with the current status and neither are people that look for more challenge. And if you have to make a choice, it's better to choose the one that most people can do.

    I do grow tired of this "why don't people just do what I do". That's not how it works for everybody for a variety of reasons. And people like yourselves are entirely not in tune with the consequences of some of the things you want. There is a reason why a lot of MMOs in the west have grown more and more casual over time. WoW, the most successful of all MMOs here being the prime example. It totally went casual and has been extremely successful. It's the simple fact that a lot of games have turned more casual that leads me to the belief that there is a much higher demand for that than before.

    But please don't try to twist things yourself by speaking of the game in general. It's story bosses we're talking about and not the entire game. Also I'm not asking for the game to be dumbed down. That's another false representation of my comments. I am saying that I understand why they would do it, if they were to do it, but I'm not asking them to do it. Understanding and agreeing are two different things that you best keep separated. I am not saying they have to dumb the bosses down, but if it appears that a lot of people struggle and don't enjoy the current story bosses then I do understand why they would do it.

    And I can live with it, cause it doesn't bother me if they made them easier. If I want a challenge, this is not the game for that. There are other games that do that much better.

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    I didn't twist it. Clearly saying that dungeons were for people who enjoyed raids was just a marketing spin to appease certain people. The dungeons never got anywhere near raiding. I posted a link here not too long ago with a blog from this site from like 2012 or 2013 and there they laid out their plans, without a single mention of raids. Saying they were planning them because they didn't say literally "we won't do raids" is twisting words. They were fully detailing on how they were basically going to do more of the same basically of what the game already had.

    The dungeons never got anywhere raiding doesn't mean they weren't designed as the equivalent for Raids. They mentioned Raids multiple times, when discussing their dungeons and saying they will be content designed for Raiders. That you still fail to remember this is a bit weird.

    Let's be honest, casual players aren't happy with the current status and neither are people that look for more challenge. And if you have to make a choice, it's better to choose the one that most people can do.

    Are they though? Based on what? A handful of forum posts that have zero information on where those players are struggling? With only vague comments about "please reduce the difficulty"?

    I do grow tired of this "why don't people just do what I do".

    It's a game with lots of choice, it's obvious that some choices are going to be good and some choices are going to be bad. When you make the bad choices don't expect to beat the content. Content should always be balanced around proper builds, not some "I clicked some random traits and random utility skills because I liked their names" builds that can't beat anything.

    I even gave SPECIFIC examples on how the fight discussed in this thread (Scruffy 2.0) is actually a JOKE. So anyone that has a problem with it is probably doing something very very wrong.

  • juhani.5361juhani.5361 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2018

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    To put in my own 2c, although I haven't read the thread as a whole...

    I recall ArenaNet commenting about the final boss of A Kindness Repaid that they put in the Olmakhan resurrection because the thing wasn't supposed to be the climax of the episode, so they wanted to make it easier. I immediately felt that what they'd actually achieved was to have the worst of both worlds (there's no challenge, because you could really just resurrection-rush it without even having much risk of armour damage to slow you down, but the first time or two you hit it there's still the frustration of being downed over and over again without feeling that there's much you can do to stop it and that you're only getting through because the game is handholding you). The third time I went through I had no problems of note (the trick is to stay in melee range as much as possible - most of its attacks are easier to dodge when in melee, and the most dangerous attack (the bouncing ball attack, which combines high damage, a wide area of effect, and a short telegraph) has a minimum range within which it can't hit you. However, if they want something to be easier, they really should make that happen by toning it down, giving more useful allies, or otherwise actually reduce the difficulty, rather than putting in a mechanic that means you literally can't lose and it's just a matter of how time-consuming and frustrating it is before you inevitably win.

    Broadly speaking, though, I'd like to see more boss fights where it actually feels like you're fighting the boss rather than some convoluted mechanics puzzle. If I wanted convoluted mechanics puzzles, I'd raid more.

    So that's the secret to Kittenbot-- melee. Ranged, I was getting nuked by everything nonstop with endless AOE from those diamond stun bombs, the balls that had no clear pattern, and whatever other random thing that got tossed in. There was so much visual clutter and extraneous stuff through the entire chapter that it was hard to figure out what to do. I'd switched my ranger from her GS early on when I had to defend Braham and the cubs because the gap closer skill misfired then threw me over edge of the bridge and got me lost for half of that segment...

    Anyway, thanks :) The whole encounter just felt like nonsense all the way through, especially the part when the shamans turn you into a giant.

  • Menadena.7482Menadena.7482 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Klipso.8653 said:
    They aren't hard, but they ARE health sponges that discourage you from playing anything other than full DPS.

    Did joko fight with my PvE Condi reaper and it only took a few minutes.

    Did the joko fight on my WvW support FB and it was 45 minutes.

    What they need to do is stop giving bosses a billion HP and pretending it's a challenge, all it really ends up being is obnoxious to complete on any spec not built for raids

    Yes, granted I do not min/max my builds but most of my characters stopped being able to solo things after LS2. Even LS3 was better for my top tier ones but now it is just ridiculous. It is not just a fight being hard either, it is being hard AND almost never-ending.

    New to the game? Feel free to give a yell if you need PVE help.

  • Frenzify.6832Frenzify.6832 Member ✭✭
    edited September 10, 2018

    I understand some of the people who just want to consume the story, and may be annoyed with parts of the game that they consider too difficult, but at the same time... what's the point of even playing a game at that point? I feel like many people just want this to essentially be a movie where there's very little effort on the player's part to consume the story, and it's incredibly annoying to see that being catered to. Because this isn't a movie. It's a game. You shouldn't just be able to spam 1 and your heal every now and then, for an easy win, but that's seriously the case with many bosses. The Scruffy fight is an outlier amongst a horde of simple and uninspired boss fights. I shudder to think of them making bosses even easier than they already are. And I promise, this isn't me being a tryhard kitten, throwing out comments like "git gud." I am by no means a great gw2 player. I consider myself a casual player. It's just that at what point do you stop lowering the difficulty? Should it be easy for even the most beginner of players that there's really no accomplishment in beating it, making it just a means to consume the story? I understand that many fights may go on for too long, but rather than making the game easier, maybe it should reevaluate how it implements difficulty, rather than just outright making the game easier. Because in a game that many already feel like there's little to do, simplifying more content seems like a terrible idea.

  • Menadena.7482Menadena.7482 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @hugo.4705 said:
    I really think that story instances should have difficulty like SAB, an easy mode to progress faster and less sub-events between main parts, normal like the instance is currently with boss fights do-able solo, tribulation where it's a nightmare where you need to bring friends with somes bonuses but higher risk.
    E.g: Exterminator golem ls4e2:
    -easy = boss -10% health, -20% attack damage
    -normal = boss -10% health, normal attack
    -tribulation = boss +10% health, +20% attack damage

    The problem is health and damage isn't what makes most recent story bosses easy/hard. It's their mechanics that make them challenging and balancing mechanics isn't as easy as adding percentage modifiers to health and damage. Further, making sure the mechanics are tweaked "properly" for each difficulty means a slower release schedule. I don't think we want that.

    Further, adding those difficulty settings isn't a sure way of making players happy. How much would a boss need to be nerfed so the lowest common player finds it easy enough? And the opposite, how much more difficult should an encounter become to make the "I want challenge" crowd happy. Notice how in SAB there is no health/damage difference, all mobs take the exact same amount of hits to die, and they do the same amount of damage. What changes is instant-kill traps only. The rest is all mechanics, clouds to let you -skip- mechanics completely in infantile mode and lots of hidden traps in tribulation mode.

    It is not just mechanics or huge mobs, the first part of LS4C1 shows what I mean. Remember the purple on purple on flashing purple .... where you needed to hit something that was purple? An epileptic nightmare.

    The only reason I do even the first instance now is they came up with this idea to hold the first map hostage to doing it. If not I would just let people who want to deal with messes like that do so and opt out. It used to be I did the LS for the story but now it seems the story is a distant relative to the fights and light shows.

    New to the game? Feel free to give a yell if you need PVE help.

  • Menadena.7482Menadena.7482 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Einsof.1457 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Einsof.1457 said:
    You are joking, right? It is literally impossible to lose in the story.

    For you perhaps. Many many players have problems with the story, and do find it difficult.

    The story fights are literally designed to be impossible to actually lose... So what game are you playing?

    Technically right in the sense of a bird pecking at a mountain of diamond will eventually wear it down. Read this as 'in a reasonable amount of time' or 'without dying'.

    New to the game? Feel free to give a yell if you need PVE help.

  • Menadena.7482Menadena.7482 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    there are many people who like to play games but for different reasons than yours. And they have a very different idea of what fun is. So why should they not play this game and enjoy it?

    Exactly. Someone who is basically a professional gamer and someone gaming to relax will have entirely different reasons to enjoy the same game in a world as expansive as GW2. Both are good reasons for that person but not a good reason for the other. That is no reason for either to say the other's reasons are not valid though.

    New to the game? Feel free to give a yell if you need PVE help.

  • Menadena.7482Menadena.7482 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    This game was marketed as more casual. Didn't even have raids to start with and it wasn't the original plan as it was. It was about story and personal choices and open world etc. Now that tells me that the people who are looking for real challenge are the ones that shouldn't be playing this game.

    You don't really remember the original plan then because they clearly said that their dungeons and the Orr Temples will be content for those that enjoy Raids in other games. It didn't start with Raids, but it started with content that was supposed to be their version of raiding. Let's not twist the original plan now shall we?
    The game was marketed as casual in terms of you can stop and return back without feeling like you are missing something, no gear treadmill and no monthly fees. There wasn't a single advertisement or developer comment during the release of the game saying "this is going to be the perfect game for those that want an easy time". Not once.

    Now that the marketing part is out of the way, I hope, the main problem with "catering" to those asking for easier content is that the content itself isn't the problem, but the players. And not talking about their skill or reaction time, but their build choice. You can't possibly tell me that the game should be created so someone with zero synergy and zero effort in their build (like that guy using only signets but only having shout traits) can beat them. That's insanity and leads to content for dumb people.

    Instead of asking for the game to be reduced to a snooze fest, why not put some effort to explain the mechanics better? Why not those having difficulty in beating certain encounters come on the forums and ask for help? This is also a fault of the community too, because there are only guides for Raids and Fractal CMs out there and not guides on how to beat Caudecus or Scruffy 2.0

    For example, the OP claims that Braham never uses his shield. He always used it when I played Scruffy and I stuck with him and blocked most of the projectiles. Further, by staying close to Braham at all times he can revive you really fast so you can't die. This isn't even corpse running because he can revive you faster than Scruffy can kill you so simply don't die all the time, or get to the outside platforms and wait for the downed penalty to disappear. Yes the battle with Scruffy 2.0 can be overwhelming with effects and projectiles, but in the end, once you find its gimmick, it's not so hard and it does contain a very good fail safe.

    I didn't twist it. Clearly saying that dungeons were for people who enjoyed raids was just a marketing spin to appease certain people. The dungeons never got anywhere near raiding. I posted a link here not too long ago with a blog from this site from like 2012 or 2013 and there they laid out their plans, without a single mention of raids. Saying they were planning them because they didn't say literally "we won't do raids" is twisting words. They were fully detailing on how they were basically going to do more of the same basically of what the game already had.

    The truth is that there is very little in this game that is actually difficult to beat. Now it may be at times more difficult to beat without dying once or twice or getting downed but most of what is challenging is just annoyance factors. Things like exaggerated aggro, mobs that instantly shoot you off your mount, cc skills that slow you for 10 seconds after combat is done, etc. Oh and some bosses have gotten he ability to one shot you into death rather than a downed state and of course the is the contested waypoint thing and even standard mobs throwing big circles faster than you can generate endurance.

    Also we're not talking about the game but about the story bosses. And yes, the baseline for story should be easier if too many people struggle with it. But I do not know if that point has been reached but if so... That's why I'm more a proponent of a story and hard mode version of those bosses than having this one-size-doesn't-fit-anyone solution. Let's be honest, casual players aren't happy with the current status and neither are people that look for more challenge. And if you have to make a choice, it's better to choose the one that most people can do.

    I do grow tired of this "why don't people just do what I do". That's not how it works for everybody for a variety of reasons. And people like yourselves are entirely not in tune with the consequences of some of the things you want. There is a reason why a lot of MMOs in the west have grown more and more casual over time. WoW, the most successful of all MMOs here being the prime example. It totally went casual and has been extremely successful. It's the simple fact that a lot of games have turned more casual that leads me to the belief that there is a much higher demand for that than before.

    But please don't try to twist things yourself by speaking of the game in general. It's story bosses we're talking about and not the entire game. Also I'm not asking for the game to be dumbed down. That's another false representation of my comments. I am saying that I understand why they would do it, if they were to do it, but I'm not asking them to do it. Understanding and agreeing are two different things that you best keep separated. I am not saying they have to dumb the bosses down, but if it appears that a lot of people struggle and don't enjoy the current story bosses then I do understand why they would do it.

    And I can live with it, cause it doesn't bother me if they made them easier. If I want a challenge, this is not the game for that. There are other games that do that much better.

    Exactly. There is plenty of precedent, story mode and hard mode in dungeons for example. Do the story in story mode and you get minimal rewards (just unlocking the new map most of the time). Do it in hard mode and get more rewards. I doubt there would be much complaint since everyone would have access to hard mode if they really wanted the rewards and usually rewards are pretty meh. I would lean towards items that kick off collection achieves (like the bandolier) as part of both modes though so you do not make hard mode the defacto thing you need to do.

    New to the game? Feel free to give a yell if you need PVE help.

  • Khisanth.2948Khisanth.2948 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:

    @Ashantara.8731 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    You dont even need hard CC.

    Never said you did.

    @Blocki.4931 said:
    ALso the BONES that are scattered EVERYWHERE provide a stun that breaks it instantly.

    Never picked one up to try, to be honest. See? Learnt something new again, even after doing this mission a good dozen times. ;)

    Ohh yeah. I was reading it like "You need a CC chain to break the bar" and not "You need 4 cc skills in the last phase for the 4 enemies".

    My bad.

    Heh those bones ended up giving me a much more suspenseful experience.

    Seeing all the bones made me dread what sort of crazy breakbar I was going to have to deal with. As it turns out it wasn't anything worth concerning about.

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Khisanth.2948 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:

    @Ashantara.8731 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    You dont even need hard CC.

    Never said you did.

    @Blocki.4931 said:
    ALso the BONES that are scattered EVERYWHERE provide a stun that breaks it instantly.

    Never picked one up to try, to be honest. See? Learnt something new again, even after doing this mission a good dozen times. ;)

    Ohh yeah. I was reading it like "You need a CC chain to break the bar" and not "You need 4 cc skills in the last phase for the 4 enemies".

    My bad.

    Heh those bones ended up giving me a much more suspenseful experience.

    Seeing all the bones made me dread what sort of crazy breakbar I was going to have to deal with. As it turns out it wasn't anything worth concerning about.

    It's funny that they were scattered all around but playing the game has taught us to ignore those environmental weapons because who wouldn't want to trade his useful weapon skills for a one time use 200 damage hit

    Pls just permaban me by now so I can stop going back here

  • Khisanth.2948Khisanth.2948 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    One of the biggest problems that GW2 has is that the build makes too much of a difference and it creates for people who have a hard time understanding the complexities or even take an interest. They just want to go through the story and enjoy the story and not be stumped by fights they cannot understand because they can't or don't want to. Whatever the reason, it's not the type of experience they are looking for.

    Why bother playing a game if all they want is a story? There are other media format that would be more fitting and provides a better story to boot.

    And when that's a small portion of your players you can say sorry, this game is about challenge. However, GW2 has been marketed as more casual and they've created some of these issues themselves and they simply cannot ignore the many casual players who are not interested in the combat system and its side effects.

    A lot of casual players play the skills and stats that they like. Not because they are good but because they feel it fits with their character and what they like. GW2 doesn't work well with that because they allowed the differences to be too big. Someone quoted a range of 2k-9k DPS. Assuming that's a fair range, this already tells me that it's too big. That creates the kind of problems we are discussing here.

    That someone was me. If I factor in using my healer(which is illogical except unless it is a druid because it can be paired with a pet to do the damage) and someone more skilled than me the actual range would probably be 500DPS to 15k DPS while 4k-6k(a range because some enemies like Canach during Hearts and Minds moves around and out of your AoEs very often but if you happen to rely on torment that ends up as a damage boost instead) is enough to tackle any story content comfortably.

    Ignoring the healer the lowest is 2000 DPS. While that makes doing things slower it is also the easiest due to having a lot more defensive stats, skills and traits which is also the reason for the lower damage.

  • Warlord.9082Warlord.9082 Member ✭✭✭

    scruffy 2.0 isnt hard, just takes forever

  • Khisanth.2948Khisanth.2948 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    @Khisanth.2948 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:

    @Ashantara.8731 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    You dont even need hard CC.

    Never said you did.

    @Blocki.4931 said:
    ALso the BONES that are scattered EVERYWHERE provide a stun that breaks it instantly.

    Never picked one up to try, to be honest. See? Learnt something new again, even after doing this mission a good dozen times. ;)

    Ohh yeah. I was reading it like "You need a CC chain to break the bar" and not "You need 4 cc skills in the last phase for the 4 enemies".

    My bad.

    Heh those bones ended up giving me a much more suspenseful experience.

    Seeing all the bones made me dread what sort of crazy breakbar I was going to have to deal with. As it turns out it wasn't anything worth concerning about.

    It's funny that they were scattered all around but playing the game has taught us to ignore those environmental weapons because who wouldn't want to trade his useful weapon skills for a one time use 200 damage hit

    Uh not me. I am one of those people always on the look out for stuff to chuck at enemies. I blame Jackie Chan. >_>

  • Ayakaru.6583Ayakaru.6583 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lucius.2140 said:

    @Moonyeti.3296 said:

    @Lucius.2140 said:

    Caithe is OP.

    Ok so I am just a loser then. What is your point, other than just to show off how much better of a player you are then me? I pointed out exactly what my problems with the encounter are, so MAYBE I didn't find her OP.

    So I suck and you are awesome. Congrats. You win at the forums.

    I will miss the rest, my point is that they made the episode had the same level of difficulty because the new skills were overpowered.
    Was the same with Rytlock sword and such since the start of the game (Caledborn for example- not sure if the name is right).

    You can be less skilled with a set of skills, but if they are stronger they compensate (or nearly compensate).

    you mean.. Caladbolg?

    To defeat the dragons, see the good in them.
    Zhaitan reunites lost ones, primordus creates fertile land, mordremoth spreads the green, and jormag..
    ..jormag? Who's that?

  • Ayakaru.6583Ayakaru.6583 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @hugo.4705 said:
    I really think that story instances should have difficulty like SAB, an easy mode to progress faster and less sub-events between main parts, normal like the instance is currently with boss fights do-able solo, tribulation where it's a nightmare where you need to bring friends with somes bonuses but higher risk.
    E.g: Exterminator golem ls4e2:
    -easy = boss -10% health, -20% attack damage
    -normal = boss -10% health, normal attack
    -tribulation = boss +10% health, +20% attack damage
    (With achievs timer adjusted)

    this gets thrown around a lot in discussions about difficulty or challenge, but health and dps changes will only affect the duration of the fight, not the difficulty or challenge thereof. If you can block or dodge attacks well, then it doesn't matter if you have to do it for an extra 10 seconds. nothing changes

    To defeat the dragons, see the good in them.
    Zhaitan reunites lost ones, primordus creates fertile land, mordremoth spreads the green, and jormag..
    ..jormag? Who's that?