So, do you think Aurene will return in Episode 6: War Eternal? - Page 3 — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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So, do you think Aurene will return in Episode 6: War Eternal?

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  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Sorta (will come back but stuck in the Mists / will be a ghost / etc)

    It was a bit sudden.. but it makes sense in hindsight I suppose, despite the weak-ish start though the episode overall was amazing.

  • Yes, I think we will have a full resurrection

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    She ate an immortal necromancer in the previous episode. She's coming back.

    You know, I think it is criminal that this received no up votes. I mean, seriously guys. It was obvious.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Other (please explain below)

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Well they completely disrespected their own story and lore in one foul swoop in the first instance. I genuinely believed they wouldn't go this route since it flew in the face of logic. An entire episode rendered meaningless in less than 2 minutes.

    Except for your last sentence, I rather agree. Started the episode with a rather foul taste because of that. I swear, Primordus better use asura portals the instance it's awake again just to explain this lore inconsistency.

    @Tails.9372 said:
    Actually no, this is completely in line with everything that has been established thus far. Joko has some kind of special lich magic which allowes him to self resurrect: dragons gain abilities based on the kind of magic they eat: Aurene eats Joko and gets his lich magic. Nothing here breaks previously established rules. It just kills the "emotional impact" of the end of episode 5 but it would have been illogical if things had happened any differently.

    You're incorrect for reasons stated several times over.

    Firstly, Elder Dragons do not get the same spells. They get access to the same magical domain. The way Kralkatorrik uses mind magic, or Primordus using plant magic, is very different from how Mordremoth used either. Similarly, the way they and Mordremoth use death magic is very different from how Zhaitan used it. In addition to that, the way Aurene and Kralkatorrik uses Balthazar's magic doesn't even come close to resembling his spells.

    Secondly, the Elder Dragons have only ever shown getting magic from other Elder Dragons and gods/former gods. This is even highlighted in the last instance, where we fight facets of the magic that Kralkatorrik consumed that is not his own. Could you honestly believe the argument that Kralkatorrik only ever ate crystal magic the entire time he was chowing down on ley lines, which had been explicitly confirmed to be a mixture of all magical domains? If Elder Dragons could get new magic abilities just by eating some dusty old lich, they'd be able to get new magic abilities from anything, and there wouldn't be a thing such as an "Elder Fire Dragon" or "Elder Ice Dragon" because they'd all be chromatic because that's how they work: they're out to consume all magic for their own reasons.

    So yes, I would say this is completely out of line with the establishment from Seasons 3 and 4.

    But to me it's one predictably small issue in an otherwise great release. The first release by the third LW team that was actually good, imo.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Erasculio.2914Erasculio.2914 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes, I think we will have a full resurrection

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    You're incorrect for reasons stated several times over.

    Ehhh, not really. You have been proven to be incorrect, actually.

    This:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    And she 100% will not combat "because she ate an immortal lich's immortality magic" because that was just her eating necromancy and she already got a bunch of death magic from Zhaitan's death via Mordremoth.

    Was simply wrong.

    Now, does this mean ArenaNet has gone against their own lore?

    Or does it simply mean your interpretation of their lore was incorrect?

    "Tomorrow my master chokes on his own whip!" - Lore of Skaen, PoE

  • maxwelgm.4315maxwelgm.4315 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Well they completely disrespected their own story and lore in one foul swoop in the first instance. I genuinely believed they wouldn't go this route since it flew in the face of logic. An entire episode rendered meaningless in less than 2 minutes.

    Except for your last sentence, I rather agree. Started the episode with a rather foul taste because of that. I swear, Primordus better use asura portals the instance it's awake again just to explain this lore inconsistency.

    @Tails.9372 said:
    Actually no, this is completely in line with everything that has been established thus far. Joko has some kind of special lich magic which allowes him to self resurrect: dragons gain abilities based on the kind of magic they eat: Aurene eats Joko and gets his lich magic. Nothing here breaks previously established rules. It just kills the "emotional impact" of the end of episode 5 but it would have been illogical if things had happened any differently.

    You're incorrect for reasons stated several times over.

    Firstly, Elder Dragons do not get the same spells. They get access to the same magical domain. The way Kralkatorrik uses mind magic, or Primordus using plant magic, is very different from how Mordremoth used either. Similarly, the way they and Mordremoth use death magic is very different from how Zhaitan used it. In addition to that, the way Aurene and Kralkatorrik uses Balthazar's magic doesn't even come close to resembling his spells.

    Secondly, the Elder Dragons have only ever shown getting magic from other Elder Dragons and gods/former gods. This is even highlighted in the last instance, where we fight facets of the magic that Kralkatorrik consumed that is not his own. Could you honestly believe the argument that Kralkatorrik only ever ate crystal magic the entire time he was chowing down on ley lines, which had been explicitly confirmed to be a mixture of all magical domains? If Elder Dragons could get new magic abilities just by eating some dusty old lich, they'd be able to get new magic abilities from anything, and there wouldn't be a thing such as an "Elder Fire Dragon" or "Elder Ice Dragon" because they'd all be chromatic because that's how they work: they're out to consume all magic for their own reasons.

    So yes, I would say this is completely out of line with the establishment from Seasons 3 and 4.

    But to me it's one predictably small issue in an otherwise great release. The first release by the third LW team that was actually good, imo.

    I agree that this is out of line with the previous episodes, but now it's there and it's established (Braham's Joker laugh followed by Praise Joko hits the nail in case someone would argue against it), that Aurene is immortal and that Joko's immortality was apparently actually special... That or it was the power of love, and I don't know which option is worse.

  • PseudoNewb.5468PseudoNewb.5468 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2019
    Sorta (will come back but stuck in the Mists / will be a ghost / etc)

    I expected Aurene coming back and her Ascension would be near or tied together and occur at the end. Instead it starts with one and ended with the other... But... in retrospect, Aurene is the only thing that can pull Kralk from the mists, so I guess that is the best the story could do without getting too off the wall... and... besides... we finally got to ride the dragon.

    If you play this season in one go though... I can't imagine it flows very well. Requiem would fit nicely in to space apart the events, but unfortunately that is not in game content.

    I feel that the brand spike through her heart completely silencing her being and magic is a stretch. Both Caith and Zafira said they could not sense Aurene at all, even though they both became attuned to her. Perhaps only to dramatize her death. Oh! her whole entire being remained where she fell the entire time, the brand spike just hid it 😕

    There where only 2 instances and a pair of back to back open world segments. Previously they have don'e 3 instances tied together with open world segments so I wonder if something had been cut to ensure the content that did get released was good quality.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Well they completely disrespected their own story and lore in one foul swoop in the first instance. I genuinely believed they wouldn't go this route since it flew in the face of logic. An entire episode rendered meaningless in less than 2 minutes.

    Except for your last sentence, I rather agree. Started the episode with a rather foul taste because of that. I swear, Primordus better use asura portals the instance it's awake again just to explain this lore inconsistency.

    @Tails.9372 said:
    Actually no, this is completely in line with everything that has been established thus far. Joko has some kind of special lich magic which allowes him to self resurrect: dragons gain abilities based on the kind of magic they eat: Aurene eats Joko and gets his lich magic. Nothing here breaks previously established rules. It just kills the "emotional impact" of the end of episode 5 but it would have been illogical if things had happened any differently.

    You're incorrect for reasons stated several times over.

    Firstly, Elder Dragons do not get the same spells. They get access to the same magical domain. The way Kralkatorrik uses mind magic, or Primordus using plant magic, is very different from how Mordremoth used either. Similarly, the way they and Mordremoth use death magic is very different from how Zhaitan used it. In addition to that, the way Aurene and Kralkatorrik uses Balthazar's magic doesn't even come close to resembling his spells.

    Secondly, the Elder Dragons have only ever shown getting magic from other Elder Dragons and gods/former gods. This is even highlighted in the last instance, where we fight facets of the magic that Kralkatorrik consumed that is not his own. Could you honestly believe the argument that Kralkatorrik only ever ate crystal magic the entire time he was chowing down on ley lines, which had been explicitly confirmed to be a mixture of all magical domains? If Elder Dragons could get new magic abilities just by eating some dusty old lich, they'd be able to get new magic abilities from anything, and there wouldn't be a thing such as an "Elder Fire Dragon" or "Elder Ice Dragon" because they'd all be chromatic because that's how they work: they're out to consume all magic for their own reasons.

    So yes, I would say this is completely out of line with the establishment from Seasons 3 and 4.

    But to me it's one predictably small issue in an otherwise great release. The first release by the third LW team that was actually good, imo.

    How intelligent is Primordus anyways? And how do we know he hasn't been portaling Destroyers everywhere? For all we know that's why they show up everywhere despite him being under Frostgorge Sound for most of GW2(until Season 3 Living World anyways)!

    Pure Leyline Magic I'd assume looks like Storms of Pure Magic... Which is what Kralkatorrik's Magic mostly seems to be alongside Crystal.

    Of course this makes one worried about what would happen if some greedy Dragon decided to consume the Magic of the Jade Sea(Jade Elder Dragon) or Echovald Forest(Stone Forest Elder Dragon)... Or worse the Domain of Pain(Flesh Elder Dragon) or Depths of Madness(Blood Elder Dragon)!

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2019
    Other (please explain below)

    @Erasculio.2914 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    You're incorrect for reasons stated several times over.

    Ehhh, not really. You have been proven to be incorrect, actually.

    Yeah. And like I said, it's inconsistent.

    Just like how sylvari function.

    @Erasculio.2914 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    And she 100% will not combat "because she ate an immortal lich's immortality magic" because that was just her eating necromancy and she already got a bunch of death magic from Zhaitan's death via Mordremoth.

    Was simply wrong.

    Now, does this mean ArenaNet has gone against their own lore?

    Or does it simply mean your interpretation of their lore was incorrect?

    I might have been wrong, but that's because they are inconsistent. Like I said in the rest of my post, to TL;DR it for you:

    • If Aurene can come back from eating a lich's death magic, then Primordus should be capable of pooping portals from all the asura cities and the Central Transfer Chamber he consumed magic from.
    • All Elder Dragons consume magic from ley lines, which contain all magic types.
    • We have seen zero cases of Elder Dragons using magic aside from when consuming that of fallen Elder Dragons and gods. Liches are no gods nor Elder Dragons.

    These are not interpretations, these are observations. So yes, it is inconsistent.

    @Mickey Frogeater.1470 said:
    How intelligent is Primordus anyways? And how do we know he hasn't been portaling Destroyers everywhere? For all we know that's why they show up everywhere despite him being under Frostgorge Sound for most of GW2(until Season 3 Living World anyways)!

    Pure Leyline Magic I'd assume looks like Storms of Pure Magic... Which is what Kralkatorrik's Magic mostly seems to be alongside Crystal.

    Of course this makes one worried about what would happen if some greedy Dragon decided to consume the Magic of the Jade Sea(Jade Elder Dragon) or Echovald Forest(Stone Forest Elder Dragon)... Or worse the Domain of Pain(Flesh Elder Dragon) or Depths of Madness(Blood Elder Dragon)!

    • If he was, he would portal them on the surface as well, not just underground, and it would become obvious over time. The reason why they show up everywhere is because Primordus himself had cleared tracks of underground spreading the destroyers. He didn't sit next to the Central Transfer Chamber the entire time. Not only that, but the dwarves had blockaded the destroyers for some time before being slowly killed off. If Primordus could open portals, then the dwarves could never blockade him.
    • Sure, Kralkatorrik's magic... but what about Primordus', Jormag's, Mordremoth's, and Zhaitan's. They all fed on the ley lines. Especially noted for Mordremoth.
    • Exactly. It just gets silly. If Aurene becomes immortal from "lich magic" then why don't we see Kralkatorrik using magic from chowing down on souls or the Realm of Torment, etc.?

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    All these squares make a circle.

  • Erasculio.2914Erasculio.2914 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes, I think we will have a full resurrection

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    These are not interpretations, these are observations. So yes, it is inconsistent.

    tbh, those sound a lot like interpretations, not observations.

    I think the main lesson here is simply that opinions are not facts.

    Which, also tbh, is a very big problem in the lore sections of the GW2 wiki. Large part of them have been written as players' interpretations of the story were facts.

    "Tomorrow my master chokes on his own whip!" - Lore of Skaen, PoE

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2019
    Other (please explain below)

    @Erasculio.2914 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    These are not interpretations, these are observations. So yes, it is inconsistent.

    tbh, those sound a lot like interpretations, not observations.

    Not really.

    • We're told repeatedly that the Elder Dragons eat the ley line magic. Just as they eat magic from artifacts and living beings.
    • We're told the ley line magic is the combination of all magic.
    • Until this moment, there have been zero cases of Elder Dragons using magic that is not their domain, unless they got it from a dead Elder Dragon and/or former god (Balthazar specifically).
    • Aurene does the same things as Kralkatorrik but on a smaller, kinder, scale. She doesn't do such immediately but learns to do so over time, just as the Elder Dragons do not immediately use the magic domains they obtained.

    These are all facts presented throughout the games. Either they are stated, like the second point is during Taimi's Game, or they're shown to us without words.

    if you disagree with these being facts, present a counter source instead of just going "that's just like, your opinion, man."


    Aurene using Joko's "lich magic" for immortality (despite not being undead like every lich there is) begins a new situation: that Elder Dragons and candidates-to-become-Elder-Dragons can not only use any magic they consume, but also any spell that the spellcaster they consumed could have used.

    As such, it becomes illogical and inconsistent, because the Elder Dragons are endlessly greedy and cruel. As shown ever since Season 3, they do not restrict themselves to their own domain in what magic they use to fulfill their goals. Primordus and Kralkatorrik especially. So since Aurene, a lesser Elder Dragon of sorts, could not only use magic domains gained from non-cosmic entities, but copy exact spells, it becomes unrealistic that Primordus and Kralkatorrik - if not the other four Elder Dragons - to do the exact same.

    And that is how it is inconsistent. Because the facts we're presented (Elder Dragons consume all magic in reach; Elder Dragons are endlessly greedy, gluttonous, and cruel; Elder Dragons do not restrict themselves to one domain of magic) tell us that if they could do what Aurene did (use magic of a non-cosmic being), they completely would.

    They have taken magic from non-cosmic beings like Joko before. But not once shown the ability to use that magic, yet showed the intention and ability to do so when taking magic from cosmic beings.

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    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Other (please explain below)

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Aurene using Joko's "lich magic" for immortality (despite not being undead like every lich there is) begins a new situation: that Elder Dragons and candidates-to-become-Elder-Dragons can not only use any magic they consume, but also any spell that the spellcaster they consumed could have used.

    Aurene is "the first of her kind", so maybe she follows new rules -- possibly the same thing that allows her to keep magic energies in balance inside herself (unlike K and presumably the other Elder Dragons) also allows her to preserve lesser magics she absorbs, if she so desires.

    Regardless, Joko's lich magic can reanimate dragon minions -- I've don't recall any indication that ordinary necromancy can do such a thing. We don't know the origin or nature of Joko's magic, but it could be a "greater" magic that the opportunistic weasel managed to steal for himself somehow.

  • Genesis.8572Genesis.8572 Member ✭✭✭

    Maybe it has less to do with Kraalkatorik absorbing different types of magic and possibly more with the nature, purity, or corruption of those magics absorbed?

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Erasculio.2914 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    These are not interpretations, these are observations. So yes, it is inconsistent.

    tbh, those sound a lot like interpretations, not observations.

    Not really.

    • We're told repeatedly that the Elder Dragons eat the ley line magic. Just as they eat magic from artifacts and living beings.
    • We're told the ley line magic is the combination of all magic.
    • Until this moment, there have been zero cases of Elder Dragons using magic that is not their domain, unless they got it from a dead Elder Dragon and/or former god (Balthazar specifically).
    • Aurene does the same things as Kralkatorrik but on a smaller, kinder, scale. She doesn't do such immediately but learns to do so over time, just as the Elder Dragons do not immediately use the magic domains they obtained.

    These are all facts presented throughout the games. Either they are stated, like the second point is during Taimi's Game, or they're shown to us without words.

    if you disagree with these being facts, present a counter source instead of just going "that's just like, your opinion, man."


    Aurene using Joko's "lich magic" for immortality (despite not being undead like every lich there is) begins a new situation: that Elder Dragons and candidates-to-become-Elder-Dragons can not only use any magic they consume, but also any spell that the spellcaster they consumed could have used.

    As such, it becomes illogical and inconsistent, because the Elder Dragons are endlessly greedy and cruel. As shown ever since Season 3, they do not restrict themselves to their own domain in what magic they use to fulfill their goals. Primordus and Kralkatorrik especially. So since Aurene, a lesser Elder Dragon of sorts, could not only use magic domains gained from non-cosmic entities, but copy exact spells, it becomes unrealistic that Primordus and Kralkatorrik - if not the other four Elder Dragons - to do the exact same.

    And that is how it is inconsistent. Because the facts we're presented (Elder Dragons consume all magic in reach; Elder Dragons are endlessly greedy, gluttonous, and cruel; Elder Dragons do not restrict themselves to one domain of magic) tell us that if they could do what Aurene did (use magic of a non-cosmic being), they completely would.

    They have taken magic from non-cosmic beings like Joko before. But not once shown the ability to use that magic, yet showed the intention and ability to do so when taking magic from cosmic beings.

    Plus the fact that Aurene showed no other tendencies to use his magic. WHy not have the ability to control Awakened for example?
    And also, did none of our super intelligent team or the Commander think "hmm I wonder if she gained Jokos powers" at any point? Even once as a source of hope? Or did they have a stupid moment...again.
    Plus if a Dragon could eat a Lich and gain resurrection powers, did none of them think to guzzle one? Especially Joko who was right on Kralks doorstep..

    To me, it all pointed against the idea of it happening because if you delved into the story (as the writers should be paying more attention to), it doesn't hold up very well. I'm not even going to dismiss the Kralkatorrik mommy issues theories because it's about the level I think they are stooping to now.

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Other (please explain below)

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Plus the fact that Aurene showed no other tendencies to use his magic. WHy not have the ability to control Awakened for example?

    Who says she can't? She won't, for the same reason she won't control Caithe.

    Plus if a Dragon could eat a Lich and gain resurrection powers, did none of them think to guzzle one? Especially Joko who was right on Kralks doorstep..

    Would an Elder Dragon actually be able to do that? Ep6 suggests that Elder Dragons (not Elder Dragon 2.0 like Aurene) have poor self-control and are driven by greed and something akin to metaphysical narcissim (the desire to turn reality into a reflection of themselves). If it's lesser magic, the Dragon would destroy and absorb it, not because it was smart, but because it's a slave to its hunger and would rather eat the golden goose than wait patiently for the eggs. If it's greater magic, the Dragon would have trouble accessing and utilizing it, because it is Alien magic and 1.0 Dragons struggle with balancing those forces internally, apparently.

  • Erasculio.2914Erasculio.2914 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes, I think we will have a full resurrection

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    • Until this moment, there have been zero cases of Elder Dragons using magic that is not their domain, unless they got it from a dead Elder Dragon and/or former god (Balthazar specifically).

    So you talk about how Elder Dragons can get magic from other beings, such as a dead Elder Dragon or a former god.

    Why the assumption that they wouldn't be able to get it from a lich?

    How many cases of a dragon eating a lich have we had before Aurene, to use as a comparison?

    Why are you claiming that Aurene's resurrection meant she could cast any spell Joko could cast? After we killed him, he didn't cast a spell in order to resurrect (considering how he was, you know, dead). He had previously cast a spell that gave himself immortality. Why are you assuming that Aurene got the ability to cast this spell, instead of Joko's property of being immortal?

    And so on and so on.

    A while ago, I read something: "Absence of evidence is evidence of absence". Which is ridiculous - it assumes one's knowledge (the "evidence") includes all that there is, so anything outside of it does not exist. It is, literally, believing to have omniscience.

    The truth is probably far closer to the opposite - Socrates' "All I know is that I know nothing". Finding the truth requires the ability to accept how one does not know everything; and how, actually, we don't really know most things. This humility is IMO the key to accepting how what one person sees as facts are actually just his/her own limited understanding of a given situation.

    So, in this case, the meme is true - it's pretty much your opinion, man.

    "Tomorrow my master chokes on his own whip!" - Lore of Skaen, PoE

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Sorta (will come back but stuck in the Mists / will be a ghost / etc)

    How Common are liches even? Like full on at the same level as Joko ones. I can think of maybe three off the top of my head.

  • PseudoNewb.5468PseudoNewb.5468 Member ✭✭✭
    Sorta (will come back but stuck in the Mists / will be a ghost / etc)

    Both Aurene and Krallk exhibited the behavior to absorb mist portaling/walking by absorbing Balth magic, not sure how that worked either... But is litchdom a specific kind of magic or simply the result of mastery over life/death magic? Not sure, maybe Aurene also absorbed Joko's knowledge and therefore was able to perform whatever ritual before hand. But obtaining another's knowledge would imply soul eating or ascension like integration of will.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Other (please explain below)

    @Erasculio.2914 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    • Until this moment, there have been zero cases of Elder Dragons using magic that is not their domain, unless they got it from a dead Elder Dragon and/or former god (Balthazar specifically).

    So you talk about how Elder Dragons can get magic from other beings, such as a dead Elder Dragon or a former god.

    Why the assumption that they wouldn't be able to get it from a lich?

    How many cases of a dragon eating a lich have we had before Aurene, to use as a comparison?

    Why are you claiming that Aurene's resurrection meant she could cast any spell Joko could cast? After we killed him, he didn't cast a spell in order to resurrect (considering how he was, you know, dead). He had previously cast a spell that gave himself immortality. Why are you assuming that Aurene got the ability to cast this spell, instead of Joko's property of being immortal?

    And so on and so on.

    Liches aren't really something special, not like an Elder Dragon or god which are beings on cosmic levels, being attached to domains of magic directly. Khilbron was able to make a construct just as immortal as himself and Joko, but you can't just poof a god out of nowhere just because you feel like it. Joko was ultimately merely an Elonian undead with a specific spell that gave him immortality. Unlike Elder Dragons and gods, he was no cosmic being that held connection to a domain of magic.

    Since liches are basically superpowered mortals, eating one of them would be no different than eating other powerful mortals. Elder Dragons do this in the thousands, and yet show no signs of new magical domains.

    This marks him as the first, and currently only, non-cosmic being who's magic was able to be used by the dragon who devoured him.

    A while ago, I read something: "Absence of evidence is evidence of absence". Which is ridiculous - it assumes one's knowledge (the "evidence") includes all that there is, so anything outside of it does not exist. It is, literally, believing to have omniscience.

    It doesn't need to include all there is. It just needs to include enough information that creates a situation where if something exists, it would be visible.

    In this case, we have the presence of Elder Dragons who we know would use other magics if they could, as we have seen that they have done just that, but they do not use magics they consumed that do not come from other cosmic beings.

    So, in this case, the meme is true - it's pretty much your opinion, man.

    The conclusion may be my opinion based on the evidence, but the evidence is not my opinion. And without an additional piece of information, our current evidence do have a certain logical fallacy to it.

    That piece of information may be "Liches are ultimately cosmic beings" or it may be "Aurene not being an Elder Dragon means Joko's magic was diluted", or something along those lines. But without such a thing to be presumed, what we do have conflicts with itself.

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    How Common are liches even? Like full on at the same level as Joko ones. I can think of maybe three off the top of my head.

    Confirmed immortal-until-magic-unbound liches are:

    • Khilbron
    • Joko
    • The Hunter
    • Mazdak

    Beings called liches or function very similar to liches are:

    • Zoldark the Unholy
    • Fendi Nin
    • Dragon Liches (four existed in the Fissure of Woe)
    • Risen Liches (there's about a dozen of these guys total - or possibly just one encountered several times tbh)

    They're not commonplace, but they're not exactly special either.

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