Mounts unhealthy for core player experience ? — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Mounts unhealthy for core player experience ?

Hi,

I played the free core game for quiet a while until I recently decided to buy HoT and PoF - since I knew I like the game. However - before buying PoF I already noticed that players with mounts have a huge advantage over F2P players that is way beyond the previous limitations and way more noticable. One could argue that free players should take it as is since they play for free. However I have a feeling that this way too noticable disadvantage will discourage players trying the game from actually upgrading to the full version because they are punished and discouraged before being able to find out how big and nice GW2 actually is.

Personally I suppose the best solution to this problem would be to have a basic mount ( slightly slower than the other mounts and with no special abilities ) available even to core players. This might also solve the no mounts in WvW problem ( unless the reasons for this are technical issues ).

Often I fail to correctly convey my point - so please be aware that my intention is not to criticize but rather to prevent GW2's playersbase to drop since we all have a more enjoyable game experience with a big enough playerbase.

<13456

Comments

  • Mira.4906Mira.4906 Member ✭✭

    You can make an argument for both.

    Personally, Mounts have been added rather carefully without impacting the game too much. Sure they make a few POI and vistas easier to get to but people teleport to friends all the time for hard ones. One of the main complaints was that you can skip too much of the maps and events and yes you can do that, But in PVE there's really nothing affected by doing that. The players that decide to kill and explore normally get more exp and the ones looking for speed skip everything.

    Mounts need to stay out of WvW as there needs to be punishment for wiping in keep defense or offense. We already have the EWP which I used several times to turn the tide of battle and had it used against me to case a keep cap failure. Also in favor a removing that and making scouting relevant again as well as players that do nothing but contest keeps. Adding faster ways to getting back in the fight just adds to stalemated fights.

  • Danikat.8537Danikat.8537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Mounts definitely provide some advantages in the base game, in certain situations. For example the other day I was in Beetletun on a low level character who hadn't explored much of Queensdale. I saw in map chat that the Shadow Behemoth was starting and I was able to jump on my raptor and run all the way down there in time for the first round of portals. Without the raptor I would have gotten there about 1/2 way through, or more likely decided it's not worth it.

    Likewise gliders make some things much easier. I can think of at least 1 vista where you can skip the entire intended path (which is somewhat hidden) by gliding,

    But there is absolutely nothing in the base game that requires gliders or mounts, and in some cases I think you get a better experience not using them. That vista for example - you can get there faster by gliding but then you'll never discover the little hidden cave which leads to it, or figure out a way through it (aka you skip some of the content) and if it's your first time playing the game skipping things like that can be a serious detriment because then you're not learning how Anet intended the game to be navigated and how to find your way around when shortcuts aren't available.

    Danielle Aurorel - Desolation EU. Mini Collector.

    "If someone really cared, well they'd take the time to spare, a moment to try and understand another one's despair"

  • Aury.1367Aury.1367 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lambent.6375 said:

    greatly reducing the time it takes to get some places.

    THIS. Why do core players care about taking 30s more to go to a place? Theyre basically punishing themselves. If you want to be competitive in this game, as in "saving those 30s", then you should think about buying the expac.

    You can go everywhere as before, nothing has changed for core players. Theres no statswise advantage of owning a mount. But as said, if you care about timing and max everything, you should buy an expac because the elite specs are for maxing out the usage too.

    You cant tell everyone to walk only because you dont have a car.

  • Ayumi Spender.1082Ayumi Spender.1082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Taygus.4571 said:
    I actually don't care that people can get to stuff easier. My issue, is that they are not down levelled enough and they completely obliterate enemies in low level maps.
    This is makes it harder to tag enemies if you are playing a new character.

    This is definitely some thing that needs fixing

    Because people who did this with ranged attacks didn't do this from the very kitten beginning before mounts.
    Solution is wait for those people to finish whatever they're doing and then go about your business after they dash away on a raptor.

    I guess you should nerf longbows too, and thief pistols, and many other things that were pulled, knocked, killed, or obliterated before I could get a few steps towards them.
    One of the longest renown hearts I had to do at a low level is in Caledon Forest where you have to kill some of those Nightmare Courts that's coming to attack the small village.
    Anyone with range would just kill everything, which would leave me sitting there waiting until they were done.

    I'm not pissed because I got it done.

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭

    Anet didn't forget about core tyria maps when they made mounts. They're pretty balanced in core maps too, the only real benefits they have there is movement speed and you can "cheat" your way to some vistas with the rabbit or something, but you can also do the vistas the proper way, tere's nothing in core tyria that you need a mount for.

  • Is it unfair? Absolutely. Is the solution to just pay for the xpacs, because everything is locked behind them? Absolutely.

  • Having mounts and gliders is not game changing for F2P people. I like everyone else ran around , and doing the content which you don't need mounts for. Mounts and gliders are a perk for people who purchased HOT and POF. These mounts just help get across content that most have already done on other characters. The only thing I have seen is when people on raptors tail swipe lower level mobs during events, which can get frustrating. If they want a mount buy POF like the rest of us.

  • Tasida.4085Tasida.4085 Member ✭✭✭

    @EpicBanHammer.7521 said:
    Is it unfair? Absolutely. Is the solution to just pay for the xpacs, because everything is locked behind them? Absolutely.

    How is it unfair? You want a toy you should have to pay for it. Standing outside of a toy store with your hand out isn't going to get you that special matchbox or whatever is hot these days. Go in and buy it otherwise do without.

    (NOBL) rocking GW's since 2005, still rocking Sorrow's Furnace :P

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There is nothing wrong or unhealthy about having aspects of the game only available if you purchase the expansions. This makes sense in terms of players and developers. If I start playing a game that has been out for a while and buy only the part of the game I don't expect to have access to part that I didn't purchase, that makes no sense.

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
    TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/D2/HoTS/Civ6/CU/AoC

  • Zaraki.5784Zaraki.5784 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 10, 2017

    @AdFinitum.1976 said:
    Hi,

    players with mounts have a huge advantage over F2P players that is way beyond the previous limitations and way more noticable. One could argue that free players should take it as is since they play for free.

    That's exactly what I argue,as a veteran player who bought the game+expansions I PRETEND to have huge advantages over F2P players, I don't care if they'll be discouraged to play anymore.

    "Sticks and stones may break your bones but words will never be able to injure you!"
    The Grim Adventures of Billy & Mandy

  • @Danikat.8537 said:
    Mounts definitely provide some advantages in the base game, in certain situations.
    But there is absolutely nothing in the base game that requires gliders or mounts, .....

    So, let's translate:
    1. The mounts provide some advantage - if you buy PoF and after that you buy the mounts. What is the definition of pay to win?
    2. "But there is absolutely nothing in the base game that requires gliders or mounts, ....." So, even if the mounts were absolutely not necessary in core Tyria, the developers introduced them in the game. Hm - I try to find a definition for persons doing unnecessary things and then forcing them to the others.
    Pff - and I asked myself why the story sounds so irrational. But by reading the AMA for PoF where someone says that every story team member had contribution to the content too (and I guess vice-versa is true also) the things started to explain itself.

    Ah - an even funnier thing: even if the players don't need mounts in core Tyria, they use it. In order to trivialize the content. In this way they have more time to complain they have nothing to do in game :)

    GW2 is (or is intended to be) a long game. And in a long game, any unnecessary move is a bad move.

  • Bloodstealer.5978Bloodstealer.5978 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Of course mounts provide an advantage... it goes without saying.
    Do I have one.. yes
    Do I use it in core maps... yes
    Does that make it right... maybe/ maybe not

    This could be a double edged sword for ANET .. it could push players into upgrading to HoT / PoF but equally it may frustrate those players especially if they are unable to purchase upgrades for whatever reason... so using that argument is just plain stupid.

    That said core maps don't require mounts or even gliders until maybe dry top or silverwastes but speed is a much more noticeable issue especially when considering events, dailies and champagne trains like after silverware meta... the amount of ground speed covered is insanely OP and often mean players miss out.. when that happens players get frustrated and often don't bother comING back, which helps no one.

    Life is what YOU make it... NOT what others tell you!

  • AdFinitum.1976AdFinitum.1976 Member
    edited October 10, 2017

    The main argument seems to be that there is no issue with F2P players doing things slower without actually being limited in what they can do in core Tyria. This is correct. However the main issue I wanted to express is based on my experience :

    I was a core / F2P player at the time of PoF release. I already played core GW2 for a while and knew I like the game and realized that mounts and the power creep introduced with PoF leave me with one of two choices - stop playing altogether or buy the expacs. To be more precise - everytime I moved to the next heart and someone flew by me at roughly 3 times my movement speed it felt bad - so bad that I left the game several times. This - never - was the case before mounts. Crouching from Heart to heart was fine since everyone had to do it. But an expansion that nullifies this one huge downside is actually a game changer - so core players don't actually play / test the current game anymore.

    The issues is that : if that happens to new players testing the game and they come to the conclusion they either have to stop playing the game because they can't participate / compete at all or buy the expacs they will just stop playing. Because unlike me they didn't stay long enough to get to know GW2 for its beaty and fun sides.

    And when core players don't stay they won't buy which could lead to too few people populating expansion areas. One must not forget that every expac has a lower player base I am sure. It is like a series - viewerbase will drop over time. Same with expacs - every new expac will get less buyers ( especially since new customers have to buy all previous expansions to get the full game ). I am pretty sure no one has as much fun anymore when there aren't enough players anymore to populate all areas. To be honest expac areas already feel slightly underpopulated - especially in deeper areas.

    My concern is not the disadvantages F2P have ( I played with that for quiet a while and it was enjoyable - which is not neccessarily the case anymore ) - my concern is that they won't join our precious world but instead abandon it.

    The game won't sell if F2P testers abandon it. And mounts passing by would have tipped me off during my testing phase if I hadn't started playing way before. Having a base mount with less movement speed would be more motivation to stay and eventually buy the expac IMHO.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Mounts are not pay to win. They are part of the game which is buy to play. This has nothing to do with the free TRIAL people can chose to try out.

    Free to play TRIAL (best repeat this as often as needed until it sinks in: trial trial trial) players have the ability to experience the game as it was as vanilla version. Expansions obviously enhance the game experience. By your definition every single expansion for other MMOs is pay to win. The only difference is in other MMOs you get an increased level cap and have to regear. Here since the level cap stays the same and you can even get the same gear in the core game (quality wise, some stat combinations are locked to expansions) suddenly an expansion is pay to win. Hilarious.

    The entitlement in some people is strong, very strong.

    Well, maybe you are new in this game so you discovered the core game as a f2p game. But, if you don't know, in the beginning the core game was not f2p. It was a buy to play. And a major selling point was that no annoying things from other games will pollute it - one of that "bad" things was the "pay to win" aspect.
    Now, if what you say is true, I mean: "Mounts are not pay to win. They are part of the game which is buy to play. This has nothing to do with the free TRIAL people can chose to try out.", and taking into account the fact that lot of players bought the core game (more than 11 millions according to ANet) - that means for them the core is buy to play- it seems that ANet gave them all some mounts. Or is not so? HM?

    It seems your statement is a little bit inaccurate. The correct statement may be: "Mounts are not pay to win. They belong to a part of the game which is buy to play". Well, this is what OP said - the mounts have no place in Tyria. They belong to another part of the game.

    And about your free to play TRIAL obsession: I have nothing against the mounts in the expansion - this is what you bought. But in Tyria ... this damages the game experience for all the players who bought the vanilla GW2.

    @AdFinitum.1976 said:

    My concern is not the disadvantages F2P have ( I played with that for quiet a while and it was enjoyable - which is not neccessarily the case anymore ) - my concern is that they won't join our precious world but instead abandon it.

    The game won't sell if F2P testers abandon it. And mounts passing by would have tipped me off during my testing phase if I hadn't started playing way before.

    Exactly this. I'm worried about this also.
    But it seems that the others are not. They bought the expansion to have an advantage over the others (but this is not pay to win). To keep this advantage they don't care about the future. Even if this is the future of the game they play.

  • Despond.2174Despond.2174 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 10, 2017

    Take this nicely. If you enjoy the game, then support it so they have a future of further developing. You get plenty for free, more than enough than most MMOs, and at some point you have to decide if you want to buy the xpacs, otherwise you can't expect people who decided to support the game to agree with you wanting paid content to be delivered to you. You're playing for free to try, not to have everything and of course those who've upgraded are going to have an advantage, what else do you expect? Also people actually had to BUY what you get now for free. There's plenty given for you to make a decision, everyone else did it, so can you.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 10, 2017

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Mounts are not pay to win. They are part of the game which is buy to play. This has nothing to do with the free TRIAL people can chose to try out.

    Free to play TRIAL (best repeat this as often as needed until it sinks in: trial trial trial) players have the ability to experience the game as it was as vanilla version. Expansions obviously enhance the game experience. By your definition every single expansion for other MMOs is pay to win. The only difference is in other MMOs you get an increased level cap and have to regear. Here since the level cap stays the same and you can even get the same gear in the core game (quality wise, some stat combinations are locked to expansions) suddenly an expansion is pay to win. Hilarious.

    The entitlement in some people is strong, very strong.

    Well, maybe you are new in this game so you discovered the core game as a f2p game. But, if you don't know, in the beginning the core game was not f2p. It was a buy to play. And a major selling point was that no annoying things from other games will pollute it - one of that "bad" things was the "pay to win" aspect.
    Now, if what you say is true, I mean: "Mounts are not pay to win. They are part of the game which is buy to play. This has nothing to do with the free TRIAL people can chose to try out.", and taking into account the fact that lot of players bought the core game (more than 11 millions according to ANet) - that means for them the core is buy to play- it seems that ANet gave them all some mounts. Or is not so? HM?

    It seems your statement is a little bit inaccurate. The correct statement may be: "Mounts are not pay to win. They belong to a part of the game which is buy to play". Well, this is what OP said - the mounts have no place in Tyria. They belong to another part of the game.

    And about your free to play TRIAL obsession: I have nothing against the mounts in the expansion - this is what you bought. But in Tyria ... this damages the game experience for all the players who bought the vanilla GW2.

    @AdFinitum.1976 said:

    My concern is not the disadvantages F2P have ( I played with that for quiet a while and it was enjoyable - which is not neccessarily the case anymore ) - my concern is that they won't join our precious world but instead abandon it.

    The game won't sell if F2P testers abandon it. And mounts passing by would have tipped me off during my testing phase if I hadn't started playing way before.

    Exactly this. I'm worried about this also.
    But it seems that the others are not. They bought the expansion to have an advantage over the others (but this is not pay to win). To keep this advantage they don't care about the future. Even if this is the future of the game they play.

    I'm not new to the game. I've been with the game ever since the 3 day headstart and had it preordered even far bevor that (on the day it became available).

    The core game is not available for purchase, it's been converted to a free to play trial (with some less restrictions).

    If you purchased the core game 5 years ago, you've gotten your moneys worth many many many times over. People meet, marry and start families in 5 years, they finish their education in 5 years, they might even buy a new car every 5 years. You've gotten your moneys worth.

    Those 60 bucks you spent back then are worth 1.5 developer hours of pay. The game has not been running on your purchse ever since then. It's been funded and payed for by people who have been spending money on the game regularly and voluntarily. You are welcome. Stop feeling entitled.

    That aside though, TC was specifically talking about free to play players. You kinda missed the ball on that point.

  • Menadena.7482Menadena.7482 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Suziana.3759 said:
    The free to play player base are not at a disadvantage because there is no area in core Tyria that can't be reached without a mount. Mounts are a mechanic in PoF due to the structure of the new maps, and needing mounts to transverse the landscape and reach these areas. We've been playing GW2 for years without mounts; there is nothing mounts provide that is an advantage over anything in core Tyria. It just gives players better quality of life of not having to walk everywhere. The F2P version is more of a trial to try out the game with an indefinite time limit. I don't think anyone is meant to play GW2 for free without upgrading at some point.

    Exactly! Plus once you decide you want more of the game (and/or can afford to do so) it is not a huge investment to get the current expansion to upgrade, do it whenever you want. Compare it to a popular buy+sub game and it is a puzzlement why a B2P game went F2P in the first place.

    New to the game? Feel free to give a yell if you need PVE help.

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    Exactly this. I'm worried about this also.
    But it seems that the others are not. They bought the expansion to have an advantage over the others (but this is not pay to win). To keep this advantage they don't care about the future. Even if this is the future of the game they play.

    What advantage do people have with mounts over those without mounts? Come on, tell me an example... Not just an imaginary one, a real one.
    People didn't buy PoF to have an advantage over f2p players, they bought it because most of them already did the content you're complaining about now (and are enjoying for free while the majority of the players had to pay for what you're playing free now). So since most players already did 100% map completion in core tyria and probably also HoT, they bought it for some new game content which happen to be mounts among other things. They certainly didn't buy it just to "win" at core tyria maps.

  • Ayumi Spender.1082Ayumi Spender.1082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Minus a few business practices, I find GW2 set up for things are almost perfect.
    No subscription, no "premium accounts", you get to experience the whole game (game, not expansion) to your whim.

    The most restrictions are like shouts in chat, mailing items, certain AH items, and so on and so forth.
    If you give a little (as in buy the upgraded core game), you gain something... or if you get either of the expansions you gain something PLUS more of the game that was... well expanded on.

    I felt the same with glider (Well not THIS bad) where I would see people with a glider and I wish I had one because I had to try and find my way down from things without dying or certain jumps/gaps were not possible for me.
    Hell, I still feel the same way in places like WVW as I have no glider there and I only play WvW like once every coming of Jesus or so... but I know that if I wanted it badly, I would go and get it.

    I haven't bought a game in a long time (think the last game I bought was a year or 2 ago), so I see no problem simply spending a little money onto this game that I know I'm playing quite a bit lately.
    And if "Core Players" been playing for quite a while too, you can't expect upgrades to come for free.

  • Javelin.7960Javelin.7960 Member ✭✭✭

    ANet is in the business of making money. In a virtual online world, that's all about creating scarcity. If a f2p player saw someone on a mount and said to themselves "I don't want one of those, seems like a huge hassle, hitting x all the time.", that doesn't make ANet money. They could easily have enabled mounts on PoF maps only, no great mystery why they didn't do that.

  • Menadena.7482Menadena.7482 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ThePlayMaker.1058 said:
    Core player experience? You mean F2P players, aka free demo players? Listen, a business can't survive on just love and happiness from its playerbase, it needs money to survive. In a game where you pay no subscription fee, the least you can do is pull out $30 for an expac every 2 years. It's absolutely nothing. People spend more than that on parties, dinners, etc each month/week! $30 across two years = $0.04 a day. The only way Anet survives as a company is with expac sales and gem purchases from its large playerbase.

    I can see some people not being able to afford a game but having the time to play it, students or someone who is unemployed. The fact is though up until the game went f2p everyone had bought it (well, I am guessing not anet employees and reviewers, but they are hardly the norm). People who are f2p are already getting free content.

    New to the game? Feel free to give a yell if you need PVE help.

  • @ThePlayMaker.1058 said:
    Core player experience? You mean F2P players, aka free demo players? Listen, a business can't survive on just love and happiness from its playerbase, it needs money to survive. In a game where you pay no subscription fee, the least you can do is pull out $30 for an expac every 2 years. It's absolutely nothing. People spend more than that on parties, dinners, etc each month/week! $30 across two years = $0.04 a day. The only way Anet survives as a company is with expac sales and gem purchases from its large playerbase.

    What about people who litetally only bought the core game. They are not f2p.