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New Generation Roamers lack the Bravery of the Old Guards

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  • TinkTinkPOOF.9201TinkTinkPOOF.9201 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @acidic.4356 said:
    mounts are just the latest and greatest of anets failed attempts to make wvw great again.... if it wernt for the glorious combat system that we have, wvw would be totally empty (same for pvp)
    anyhow.... population decrease, mounts, auto upgrades, probably the reason u see t3 camps.... and also on rare occasions enemy might be actively defenddin it to tier up their structures....

    WvWers: Mounts are too fast, we cant even defend camps before they run and take them!

    Also WvWers: Mounts are too fast, we cant even take camps before they run and defend them!

    Doesn't work that way.

    Speed of getting to the camp has nothing to do with capping speed, you are also in enemy area and mount is slower than defenders. Time to get to camp or structure to defend however has been reduced significantly. So responding to a camp that still has the same capping time is an advantage to the defenders, not the attackers, anyone using the first statement would be incorrect, I have also not seen anyone use that statement here, and only see the second.

    "When you power creep the game and make it so that spam gameplay is nearly as effective as deep knowledge and nuance, the quality of players will decrease." -Exedore

  • ThomasC.1056ThomasC.1056 Member ✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:
    What roaming needs is not players as 'bold' as the one described above, but rather something that will cause players to understand that losing fights is a crucial part of enjoying the game. We can't blame anet, they've already made fighting as free from consequence as possible. So what can we, as players, do to discourage this reluctance . . ?

    I like this question. Thanks for raising it.
    Though I don't have any proper answer beyond the obvious : the reluctance doesn't come from the consequences of fights.

    Then what ?

    Look at that—you broke Scruffy's sarcasm meters. ~ Taimi.

  • Iozeph.5617Iozeph.5617 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2019

    @SpellOfIniquity.1780 said:
    In my own defense here, I'm not asking people to boycott meta builds and elite specializations. Play how ever you want to play. I'm just saying the people who knowingly play broken things and at the same time say "it's broken/OP and should be nerfed" just make me feel they're a part of the problem. Why do people play things they know are over performing and yet still beg for balance? To me it's like having a buffet of food, eating nothing but cake, and saying "there isn't enough healthy food here" while avoiding everything that is. It's hypocritical and frustrating. An observation rooted in truth but a blameless accusation. ANet may provide us with these tools and by all means, people can use what they find most fun. But blaming ANet for providing us with these things while relying on those things to save us doesn't help anyone.

    Personally, I enjoy playing things that are under performing. That will differ for everyone and I understand that. But if you seek winning by any means necessary and turn to what you hate most to do so, failure hurts that much more and blinds you in the process.
    I don't care if I can't beat meta builds and I don't blame others because I choose to handicap myself. But it gives me a real clear view from outside looking in.

    Not trying to put you on the defencive here. I just feel that going after player behaviour is barking up the wrong tree so to speak.

    Player behaviour is, at best, a symptom of the underlying condition of the game. Treat them as you would any animal in nature. They simply do what they do to get by with the least amount of effort and with the best tools given to them. If one or a few professions become exalted over all the rest through bad design or neglect -players who want to win are going to play those professions -even as they hypocritically whinge and scream and kick about how overpowered they are. The alternative to this isn't to get better. It's to join them and then beat them or just quit the mode/game.

    Why? Because There's an upper limit where skill is trumped by mechanical advantage and organically superior damage per unit time. It's much easier to fight fire with fire so that's what most people will do, even as they profess to hate it. I'm unable to fault them for this because they're just reacting to the environment provided to them.

    There's no way for you or I, as players, to force other players to embrace or avoid one style of play over another. The only people who have it even remotely within their power to change this are the people in charge of profession development/balance. If they won't lift a finger to effect better balance then don't expect much to change. That they haven't for years upon years while the population has steadily declined speaks volumes.

    It's good that they're making a show of caring/listening now, but as things are it might already be too late for this.

  • GaijinGuy.8476GaijinGuy.8476 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2019

    @Gop.8713 said:
    I had the pleasure of seeing one of the OP's pve heroes solo flip t2 nnc on alpine tonight. I arrived literally one tick too late to contest, then stood in the newly enemy camp and laughed at the other player as he cowered outside on his mount, refusing the 1v1. I thought of this thread and wondered if this was the kind of forgotten courage the OP is longing for lol . . .

    What roaming needs is not players as 'bold' as the one described above, but rather something that will cause players to understand that losing fights is a crucial part of enjoying the game. We can't blame anet, they've already made fighting as free from consequence as possible. So what can we, as players, do to discourage this reluctance . . ?

    Agreed! I am not very good but never back down from a fight. What’s the worst that could happen? I die, re spawn and am right back to it. Practice makes perfect... A LOT of practice in my case

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @GaijinGuy.8476 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    I had the pleasure of seeing one of the OP's pve heroes solo flip t2 nnc on alpine tonight. I arrived literally one tick too late to contest, then stood in the newly enemy camp and laughed at the other player as he cowered outside on his mount, refusing the 1v1. I thought of this thread and wondered if this was the kind of forgotten courage the OP is longing for lol . . .

    What roaming needs is not players as 'bold' as the one described above, but rather something that will cause players to understand that losing fights is a crucial part of enjoying the game. We can't blame anet, they've already made fighting as free from consequence as possible. So what can we, as players, do to discourage this reluctance . . ?

    Agreed! I am not very good but never back down from a fight. What’s the worst that could happen? I die, re spawn and am right back to it. Practice makes perfect... A LOT of practice in my case

    Listen,

    I WILL FIND YOU,
    and you will rek me. My plays seemed to have declined a bit as of late.

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
    twitch.tv/TRMC
    Lover of Jumping puzzles, Squirrels, WvW, and Taimi
    CLOK Commander and all around nice bro

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @thehipone.6812 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    I had the pleasure of seeing one of the OP's pve heroes solo flip t2 nnc on alpine tonight. I arrived literally one tick too late to contest, then stood in the newly enemy camp and laughed at the other player as he cowered outside on his mount, refusing the 1v1. I thought of this thread and wondered if this was the kind of forgotten courage the OP is longing for lol . . .

    What roaming needs is not players as 'bold' as the one described above, but rather something that will cause players to understand that losing fights is a crucial part of enjoying the game. We can't blame anet, they've already made fighting as free from consequence as possible. So what can we, as players, do to discourage this reluctance . . ?

    You call out the other player out for "refusing the 1v1". But really, why should the other player fight you in this situation?

    The question raised was, why would they not? The fighting is the point, a reason needs to be given to avoid it, not engage in it . . .

    He has taken the objective and it can't be taken back for a while due to RI. It's not like he can really expect to solo hold NC on an opposing borderland, and he achieved the objective to reset the upgrade and delay yaks to other towers. Even if he wins the 1v1, you respawn and are back in 30 seconds, likely with other teammates as soon as RI runs down. The other player braved enemy territory, accomplished his tactical objective, and can now move on somewhere else that benefits his team. He's supposed to stay (and likely eventually die to a +1) because you want "duels"?

    Apologies, but I absolutely never duel, at all, under any circumstance. I do however recognize wvw is a pvp environment and if I'm going to wp anyway I may as well fight first, most especially when there is no consequence to my success or failure . . .

    Nah. I'd argue that he made the smart play and that you're the one who is missing the point a bit. The other player is a better, more useful roamer.

    I feel like your reply is valuable bc to me it goes to the heart of what is most wrong with the game mode. You state that avoiding the pvp aspect of the game is a desirable goal, and list 'resetting the upgrade' -- and apologies again but I honestly don't understand what that means -- and delaying yaks as more beneficial to the team. My question here is beneficial how? To whom? Are we talking about points? This was a Wednesday morning. Insofar as wvw even has outcomes, the outcome of neither the match nor the skirmish was in doubt. How could it possibly make any difference to anyone which faction controlled nnc on a bl? These questions are not rhetorical, I'm genuinely curious as to the motivations behind your perspective . . .

    @ThomasC.1056 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    What roaming needs is not players as 'bold' as the one described above, but rather something that will cause players to understand that losing fights is a crucial part of enjoying the game. We can't blame anet, they've already made fighting as free from consequence as possible. So what can we, as players, do to discourage this reluctance . . ?

    I like this question. Thanks for raising it.
    Though I don't have any proper answer beyond the obvious : the reluctance doesn't come from the consequences of fights.

    Then what ?

    Thanks :)

    I think it's worth thinking about, and I'm curious as to whether anyone has an answer. Based on the one reply I received above it would appear that some players simply find the pve aspects of the mode more engaging. But I think enhancing the benefits or rewards of the pvp aspect would only make players feel more like they had something to lose when they lose fights and would actually do more to discourage fighting. OTOH, nerfing, for example, the participation benefits of the pve aspects isn't a great solution bc a lot of the time there just aren't other players to fight. I'm not sure it's a very easy problem to address. If anet could find a way to use the pve aspects of the game to encourage pvp, that would be awesome, but I don't have any ready examples of how they might do so . . .

    As a player I've not been able to come up with much either. I always try to goad players who won't fight, but it's rarely effective. I also never do anything to any player who fights and loses, under any circumstance. Idk what stops ppl from fighting, but I don't think emoting at them or throwing siege when they lose is going to help matters :p When a new player asks for advice, I never tell them to find a tag and follow it, always tell them to go to home bl, look for stuff to do and expect to die a lot. I think getting players new to wvw from pve to expect death as a natural part of the game is important, bc in pve the encounters are designed for the player to win, and death is a failure . . .

    @GaijinGuy.8476 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    I had the pleasure of seeing one of the OP's pve heroes solo flip t2 nnc on alpine tonight. I arrived literally one tick too late to contest, then stood in the newly enemy camp and laughed at the other player as he cowered outside on his mount, refusing the 1v1. I thought of this thread and wondered if this was the kind of forgotten courage the OP is longing for lol . . .

    What roaming needs is not players as 'bold' as the one described above, but rather something that will cause players to understand that losing fights is a crucial part of enjoying the game. We can't blame anet, they've already made fighting as free from consequence as possible. So what can we, as players, do to discourage this reluctance . . ?

    Agreed! I am not very good but never back down from a fight. What’s the worst that could happen? I die, re spawn and am right back to it. Practice makes perfect... A LOT of practice in my case

    This is the attitude we need to see more of :)

  • thehipone.6812thehipone.6812 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 31, 2019

    @Gop.8713 said:
    The question raised was, why would they not? The fighting is the point, a reason needs to be given to avoid it, not engage in it . . .

    I spelled out the exact reasons why he was likely disadvantaged and not to take the fight. A smart combatant will choose fights to his advantage, when possible. It is idiotic to argue that someone should take each and every fight, especially when significantly disadvantaged - that's just dumb gameplay.

    Nah. I'd argue that he made the smart play and that you're the one who is missing the point a bit. The other player is a better, more useful roamer.

    I feel like your reply is valuable bc to me it goes to the heart of what is most wrong with the game mode. You state that avoiding the pvp aspect of the game is a desirable goal, and list 'resetting the upgrade' -- and apologies again but I honestly don't understand what that means -- and delaying yaks as more beneficial to the team. My question here is beneficial how? To whom? Are we talking about points? This was a Wednesday morning. Insofar as wvw even has outcomes, the outcome of neither the match nor the skirmish was in doubt. How could it possibly make any difference to anyone which faction controlled nnc on a bl? These questions are not rhetorical, I'm genuinely curious as to the motivations behind your perspective . . .

    I never said avoid the pvp aspect, I said it made sense for them to skip that particular fight because it was likely pointless/suicidal. If you made it in time to contest the camp then a fight would have been appropriate to try to finish the cap. I'll happily jump in 1v2 in defending a camp that my team holds, sometimes winning or sometimes delaying enough for other teammates to arrive. I'm not going to go trying to fight that rifle DE camping around stonemist on my necro though.

    Some good reading: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/World_versus_World The T2 camp provides more warscore when upgraded, so when you cap it, even if the other team gets it back it is reset back to t1 (and also preemptively prevent t2 --> t3). There is a wider strategy beyond just fights, of keeping objectives soft, denying supply, etc. People play the game for fun - some find fun only in fights, some in ppt and strategy, and others mixed somewhere in between. So what if the match is decided? It is still fun to be a pest to the enemy, steal their camps and objectives, and yes kill them too. But again, nowhere does it say that someone has to be a suicidal idiot and take bad fights because a couple of people on the forums are mad. Ever see a thief run away?

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 31, 2019

    @thehipone.6812 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    The question raised was, why would they not? The fighting is the point, a reason needs to be given to avoid it, not engage in it . . .

    I spelled out the exact reasons why he was likely disadvantaged and not to take the fight. A smart combatant will choose fights to his advantage, when possible. It is idiotic to argue that someone should take each and every fight, especially when significantly disadvantaged - that's just dumb gameplay.

    You're not going to get a much more advantageous 1v1 than in a camp you just flipped. The only thing risked is a loss with no consequence, so a smart combatant would realize that there is no cost to fighting and losing, if you're just going to wp before the fight instead . . .

    Nah. I'd argue that he made the smart play and that you're the one who is missing the point a bit. The other player is a better, more useful roamer.

    I feel like your reply is valuable bc to me it goes to the heart of what is most wrong with the game mode. You state that avoiding the pvp aspect of the game is a desirable goal, and list 'resetting the upgrade' -- and apologies again but I honestly don't understand what that means -- and delaying yaks as more beneficial to the team. My question here is beneficial how? To whom? Are we talking about points? This was a Wednesday morning. Insofar as wvw even has outcomes, the outcome of neither the match nor the skirmish was in doubt. How could it possibly make any difference to anyone which faction controlled nnc on a bl? These questions are not rhetorical, I'm genuinely curious as to the motivations behind your perspective . . .

    I never said avoid the pvp aspect, I said it made sense for them to skip that particular fight because it was likely pointless/suicidal. If you made it in time to contest the camp then a fight would have been appropriate to try to finish the cap. I'll happily jump in 1v2 in defending a camp that my team holds, sometimes winning or sometimes delaying enough for other teammates to arrive. I'm not going to go trying to fight that rifle DE camping around stonemist on my necro though.

    Why not? What is the cost you perceive in losing a fight? This is the motivation i'm trying to understand . . .

    Some good reading: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/World_versus_World The T2 camp provides more warscore when upgraded, so when you cap it, even if the other team gets it back it is reset back to t1 (and also preemptively prevent t2 --> t3). There is a wider strategy beyond just fights, of keeping objectives soft, denying supply, etc. People play the game for fun - some find fun only in fights, some in ppt and strategy, and others mixed somewhere in between. So what if the match is decided? It is still fun to be a pest to the enemy, steal their camps and objectives, and yes kill them too. But again, nowhere does it say that someone has to be a suicidal idiot and take bad fights because a couple of people on the forums are mad. Ever see a thief run away?

    This is what I mean when I say you prefer to avoid the pvp aspect and enjoy the pve aspect. You acknowledge that the pve victory yielded no advantage, yet you still see avoiding the pvp opportunity as a success, even though there is no consequence to winning or losing there either . . .

    EDIT: There was another scenario at the same camp before it flipped, and perhaps your reaction to it might help me understand your perspective better. This was a different player from the third faction, still trying to solo flip the same t2 nnc but I made it in time to contest, and I wasn't alone. The enemy player mounted up and tried to run, but I pursued and dismounted him outside the camp while my allies remained at nnc, at which point the enemy player just stood there and let me kill him with autoattacks. Was this enemy player's decision also correct, from your perspective . . ?

  • reddie.5861reddie.5861 Member ✭✭✭✭

    think all roamers have left building already for long time..

    whats point to roam when ever class has mobility? dont give me kitten like necro has no mobility etc cus i played quite long to point i just decide to quit and screw this game..
    i could roam on any class play most toxic builds it didnt matter i mained thief for ages but moment i lost my dmg to some random class that isnt even suppose to have mobility but they got it handed by anet and they can tank 10 times more then my thief while doing also 10x amount of dmg then my thief i just left.

    people can throw kitten at me now that thief is still good, yes i know its not like i got smashed all over the place infact i still manage to win majority of my fights but doesnt change fact that GW2 has changed ALOT to point they are trying to make all classes do anything beside a few who just get more and more crippled especially in WvW.
    these mounts where basically the last drop for me i tried playing with em i did for sometime but i just hated them it just pushed me away from gw2 and never looked back

    i just check forums from time to time in hope gw2 rerolled everything back to good old days but that will never happen ;)

  • all these triggered and baited ppl lol.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    all these triggered and baited ppl lol.

    The roaming/1v1 master has spoken.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    all these triggered and baited ppl lol.

    That's what I've been thinking. I didn't expect a thread on roaming to become so large and heated. Ultimately, the OP is just telling people to go out there and get camps. It's not exactly a big deal.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • @Justine.6351 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    all these triggered and baited ppl lol.

    The roaming/1v1 master has spoken.

    namba wan justine

    Te lazla otstara.

  • Strider.7849Strider.7849 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm a roamer and have been since game release. What's changed? Aside from a reduced population, one of the biggest changes that has affected roaming is mounts and detection. Now enemies can see you coming from quite a ways away. When you get to the T3 camp, not only are you fighting guards (if you don't instantly nuke them) but you also have to deal with people who die and constantly run back over and over and over again - because of the mounts. Solo/Duo roamers used to be able to take towers, now during prime time you'd be lucky to build a guild cata/ram before enemies on mounts can get in the tower. I frequently fight outnumbered and used to love it in the past but these days it can be draining when you don't even get more than a few moments to recover skills, with constant streams of mounted people slamming into you until they win. The way it's changed is you pretty much have to be capping the camp before swords pop, or you may not be able to cap it at all.

  • Svarty.8019Svarty.8019 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Strider.7849 said:
    I'm a roamer and have been since game release. What's changed? Aside from a reduced population, one of the biggest changes that has affected roaming is mounts and detection. Now enemies can see you coming from quite a ways away. When you get to the T3 camp, not only are you fighting guards (if you don't instantly nuke them) but you also have to deal with people who die and constantly run back over and over and over again - because of the mounts. Solo/Duo roamers used to be able to take towers, now during prime time you'd be lucky to build a guild cata/ram before enemies on mounts can get in the tower. I frequently fight outnumbered and used to love it in the past but these days it can be draining when you don't even get more than a few moments to recover skills, with constant streams of mounted people slamming into you until they win. The way it's changed is you pretty much have to be capping the camp before swords pop, or you may not be able to cap it at all.

    Scouts are vitally important these days. If something has a scout (even one who can't press buttons quickly) who is pointing their eyes at the big glowing rectangle in front of them, you're going to struggle to cap it.

    This post contains my opinion.

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Strider.7849 said:
    I'm a roamer and have been since game release. What's changed? Aside from a reduced population, one of the biggest changes that has affected roaming is mounts and detection. Now enemies can see you coming from quite a ways away. When you get to the T3 camp, not only are you fighting guards (if you don't instantly nuke them) but you also have to deal with people who die and constantly run back over and over and over again - because of the mounts. Solo/Duo roamers used to be able to take towers, now during prime time you'd be lucky to build a guild cata/ram before enemies on mounts can get in the tower. I frequently fight outnumbered and used to love it in the past but these days it can be draining when you don't even get more than a few moments to recover skills, with constant streams of mounted people slamming into you until they win. The way it's changed is you pretty much have to be capping the camp before swords pop, or you may not be able to cap it at all.

    Tbf if you're outnumbered you should expect to lose. I too enjoy fighting outnumbered, but if it is harder to succeed at it now than it was in the past I would count that as progress . . ?

  • sostronk.8167sostronk.8167 Member ✭✭✭

    Bravery. In a video game. You kids need to go outside and get some fresh air and sunshine.

    _We must secure the existence of our Quaggans and a future for Quaggan children. _

  • L A T I O N.8923L A T I O N.8923 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Strider.7849 said:
    I'm a roamer and have been since game release. What's changed? Aside from a reduced population, one of the biggest changes that has affected roaming is mounts and detection. Now enemies can see you coming from quite a ways away. When you get to the T3 camp, not only are you fighting guards (if you don't instantly nuke them) but you also have to deal with people who die and constantly run back over and over and over again - because of the mounts. Solo/Duo roamers used to be able to take towers, now during prime time you'd be lucky to build a guild cata/ram before enemies on mounts can get in the tower. I frequently fight outnumbered and used to love it in the past but these days it can be draining when you don't even get more than a few moments to recover skills, with constant streams of mounted people slamming into you until they win. The way it's changed is you pretty much have to be capping the camp before swords pop, or you may not be able to cap it at all.

    Tbf if you're outnumbered you should expect to lose. I too enjoy fighting outnumbered, but if it is harder to succeed at it now than it was in the past I would count that as progress . . ?

    Whats the purpose of this game if IT would be Just numbers VS numbers? I guess no1 would play IT, especially in a gamemode on which numbers are balanced by how players want IT (and not rgn)

    And that's the problem of current balance and why most roamers left this game (yes its wave after wave of people leaving because of these reason) and IT happens every 4-8 months people leaving rapidly and some come back and some dont

    And i do get it why balance is like this, i mean inplay for 5 years now and i can face someone with 2years more experience or a complete new Guy at the same time. So easy carries for builds like spellbreaker or mirage i do get

    But its sad to see An enemy mithril rank still run full berserk spellbreaker, mirage or diamond rank berserk soulbeast which happens occasionly

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Strider.7849 said:
    I'm a roamer and have been since game release. What's changed? Aside from a reduced population, one of the biggest changes that has affected roaming is mounts and detection. Now enemies can see you coming from quite a ways away. When you get to the T3 camp, not only are you fighting guards (if you don't instantly nuke them) but you also have to deal with people who die and constantly run back over and over and over again - because of the mounts. Solo/Duo roamers used to be able to take towers, now during prime time you'd be lucky to build a guild cata/ram before enemies on mounts can get in the tower. I frequently fight outnumbered and used to love it in the past but these days it can be draining when you don't even get more than a few moments to recover skills, with constant streams of mounted people slamming into you until they win. The way it's changed is you pretty much have to be capping the camp before swords pop, or you may not be able to cap it at all.

    Tbf if you're outnumbered you should expect to lose. I too enjoy fighting outnumbered, but if it is harder to succeed at it now than it was in the past I would count that as progress . . ?

    Whats the purpose of this game if IT would be Just numbers VS numbers? I guess no1 would play IT, especially in a gamemode on which numbers are balanced by how players want IT (and not rgn)

    What's the purpose of the game if balance is so broken players can find builds that allow them to expect victory in outnumbered situations . . ?

  • L A T I O N.8923L A T I O N.8923 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Strider.7849 said:
    I'm a roamer and have been since game release. What's changed? Aside from a reduced population, one of the biggest changes that has affected roaming is mounts and detection. Now enemies can see you coming from quite a ways away. When you get to the T3 camp, not only are you fighting guards (if you don't instantly nuke them) but you also have to deal with people who die and constantly run back over and over and over again - because of the mounts. Solo/Duo roamers used to be able to take towers, now during prime time you'd be lucky to build a guild cata/ram before enemies on mounts can get in the tower. I frequently fight outnumbered and used to love it in the past but these days it can be draining when you don't even get more than a few moments to recover skills, with constant streams of mounted people slamming into you until they win. The way it's changed is you pretty much have to be capping the camp before swords pop, or you may not be able to cap it at all.

    Tbf if you're outnumbered you should expect to lose. I too enjoy fighting outnumbered, but if it is harder to succeed at it now than it was in the past I would count that as progress . . ?

    Whats the purpose of this game if IT would be Just numbers VS numbers? I guess no1 would play IT, especially in a gamemode on which numbers are balanced by how players want IT (and not rgn)

    What's the purpose of the game if balance is so broken players can find builds that allow them to expect victory in outnumbered situations . . ?

    Becoming on of there persons

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Strider.7849 said:
    I'm a roamer and have been since game release. What's changed? Aside from a reduced population, one of the biggest changes that has affected roaming is mounts and detection. Now enemies can see you coming from quite a ways away. When you get to the T3 camp, not only are you fighting guards (if you don't instantly nuke them) but you also have to deal with people who die and constantly run back over and over and over again - because of the mounts. Solo/Duo roamers used to be able to take towers, now during prime time you'd be lucky to build a guild cata/ram before enemies on mounts can get in the tower. I frequently fight outnumbered and used to love it in the past but these days it can be draining when you don't even get more than a few moments to recover skills, with constant streams of mounted people slamming into you until they win. The way it's changed is you pretty much have to be capping the camp before swords pop, or you may not be able to cap it at all.

    Tbf if you're outnumbered you should expect to lose. I too enjoy fighting outnumbered, but if it is harder to succeed at it now than it was in the past I would count that as progress . . ?

    Whats the purpose of this game if IT would be Just numbers VS numbers? I guess no1 would play IT, especially in a gamemode on which numbers are balanced by how players want IT (and not rgn)

    What's the purpose of the game if balance is so broken players can find builds that allow them to expect victory in outnumbered situations . . ?

    Becoming on of there persons

    So broken builds are okay bc everyone can choose to run broken builds. The trouble with that logic is it works exactly the same for ppl who want to argue that there's nothing wrong with the larger group winning bc everyone can choose to belong to the larger group . . .

  • miguelsil.6324miguelsil.6324 Member ✭✭✭

    I never said avoid the pvp aspect, I said it made sense for them to skip that particular fight because it was likely pointless/suicidal. If you made it in time to contest the camp then a fight would have been appropriate to try to finish the cap. I'll happily jump in 1v2 in defending a camp that my team holds, sometimes winning or sometimes delaying enough for other teammates to arrive. I'm not going to go trying to fight that rifle DE camping around stonemist on my necro though.

    Why not? What is the cost you perceive in losing a fight? This is the motivation i'm trying to understand . . .

    Because DE rifle is broken and there is no point. It has next to zero chance to counter.

    That is whats sad in wvw, you have to avoid or keep running because you have classes that give 0 chance or counters.

  • Svarty.8019Svarty.8019 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2019

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:

    @Len.1879 said:
    Well, if, as you say, your enemies have T3 camps and you are sad to see that, why not heed Gandhi?
    fm005.jpg

    Hmm... ok.

    I can't say anything about this because of *cough * nudge nudge *cough * rules *cough * ,Here is the music I always sing when I'm facing them...

    This post contains my opinion.

  • L A T I O N.8923L A T I O N.8923 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Strider.7849 said:
    I'm a roamer and have been since game release. What's changed? Aside from a reduced population, one of the biggest changes that has affected roaming is mounts and detection. Now enemies can see you coming from quite a ways away. When you get to the T3 camp, not only are you fighting guards (if you don't instantly nuke them) but you also have to deal with people who die and constantly run back over and over and over again - because of the mounts. Solo/Duo roamers used to be able to take towers, now during prime time you'd be lucky to build a guild cata/ram before enemies on mounts can get in the tower. I frequently fight outnumbered and used to love it in the past but these days it can be draining when you don't even get more than a few moments to recover skills, with constant streams of mounted people slamming into you until they win. The way it's changed is you pretty much have to be capping the camp before swords pop, or you may not be able to cap it at all.

    Tbf if you're outnumbered you should expect to lose. I too enjoy fighting outnumbered, but if it is harder to succeed at it now than it was in the past I would count that as progress . . ?

    Whats the purpose of this game if IT would be Just numbers VS numbers? I guess no1 would play IT, especially in a gamemode on which numbers are balanced by how players want IT (and not rgn)

    What's the purpose of the game if balance is so broken players can find builds that allow them to expect victory in outnumbered situations . . ?

    Becoming on of there persons

    So broken builds are okay bc everyone can choose to run broken builds. The trouble with that logic is it works exactly the same for ppl who want to argue that there's nothing wrong with the larger group winning bc everyone can choose to belong to the larger group . . .

    I guess we missing my point here...whether its you or me...Lets Just agree to disagree

  • Trouble is that Anet has determined which role each class should play, if you assume one outside your class you are at a disadvantage. I play necro and love to roam, this is the class I always played and it is a challenge but fun. Also I too miss the days when you paid for upgrades and invested the time and effort in an objective, mine was always a NET. The kitten workers are on strike again always made me chuckle.

    Adversity is the medium thru which strength and greatness are forged.

  • pretty sure roaming guilds are going to do whatever they want, and don't really care about what anyone else thinks - just as they have since release

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    @Doug.4930 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    I even once offered and paid a roamer 2 gold to flip an enemy T3 camp that was supplying SMC with speed yaks that we were trying to take.

    This is just sad

    I don't recall his name but I think he was a white furred charr from the guild HD

    Fake news.

    Veypa Saltpaw
    Mreow [HD]

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Strider.7849 said:
    I'm a roamer and have been since game release. What's changed? Aside from a reduced population, one of the biggest changes that has affected roaming is mounts and detection. Now enemies can see you coming from quite a ways away. When you get to the T3 camp, not only are you fighting guards (if you don't instantly nuke them) but you also have to deal with people who die and constantly run back over and over and over again - because of the mounts. Solo/Duo roamers used to be able to take towers, now during prime time you'd be lucky to build a guild cata/ram before enemies on mounts can get in the tower. I frequently fight outnumbered and used to love it in the past but these days it can be draining when you don't even get more than a few moments to recover skills, with constant streams of mounted people slamming into you until they win. The way it's changed is you pretty much have to be capping the camp before swords pop, or you may not be able to cap it at all.

    Tbf if you're outnumbered you should expect to lose. I too enjoy fighting outnumbered, but if it is harder to succeed at it now than it was in the past I would count that as progress . . ?

    Whats the purpose of this game if IT would be Just numbers VS numbers? I guess no1 would play IT, especially in a gamemode on which numbers are balanced by how players want IT (and not rgn)

    What's the purpose of the game if balance is so broken players can find builds that allow them to expect victory in outnumbered situations . . ?

    Becoming on of there persons

    So broken builds are okay bc everyone can choose to run broken builds. The trouble with that logic is it works exactly the same for ppl who want to argue that there's nothing wrong with the larger group winning bc everyone can choose to belong to the larger group . . .

    I guess we missing my point here...whether its you or me...Lets Just agree to disagree

    My guess based on what little you've said thus far is your point is that when you find yourself successful in outnumbered situations you give your skill too much credit and your build too little. The reason I thought it was important to pursue is that it is probably the same mistake our pve friend from earlier in the thread was making as well. Neither of you came right out and said it, but I'm guessing you're both motivated by the fact that winning feels good and losing feels bad, even though intellectually you're both aware that your personal responsibility for those outcomes ended when you selected your build. If the understanding of that reality could become more commonplace then more players might be able to ascend to a place where they can enjoy the fighting itself, rather than the winning, and the game would be better for it since it would no longer be full of players running from even matchups :)

  • L A T I O N.8923L A T I O N.8923 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Strider.7849 said:
    I'm a roamer and have been since game release. What's changed? Aside from a reduced population, one of the biggest changes that has affected roaming is mounts and detection. Now enemies can see you coming from quite a ways away. When you get to the T3 camp, not only are you fighting guards (if you don't instantly nuke them) but you also have to deal with people who die and constantly run back over and over and over again - because of the mounts. Solo/Duo roamers used to be able to take towers, now during prime time you'd be lucky to build a guild cata/ram before enemies on mounts can get in the tower. I frequently fight outnumbered and used to love it in the past but these days it can be draining when you don't even get more than a few moments to recover skills, with constant streams of mounted people slamming into you until they win. The way it's changed is you pretty much have to be capping the camp before swords pop, or you may not be able to cap it at all.

    Tbf if you're outnumbered you should expect to lose. I too enjoy fighting outnumbered, but if it is harder to succeed at it now than it was in the past I would count that as progress . . ?

    Whats the purpose of this game if IT would be Just numbers VS numbers? I guess no1 would play IT, especially in a gamemode on which numbers are balanced by how players want IT (and not rgn)

    What's the purpose of the game if balance is so broken players can find builds that allow them to expect victory in outnumbered situations . . ?

    Becoming on of there persons

    So broken builds are okay bc everyone can choose to run broken builds. The trouble with that logic is it works exactly the same for ppl who want to argue that there's nothing wrong with the larger group winning bc everyone can choose to belong to the larger group . . .

    I guess we missing my point here...whether its you or me...Lets Just agree to disagree

    My guess based on what little you've said thus far is your point is that when you find yourself successful in outnumbered situations you give your skill too much credit and your build too little. The reason I thought it was important to pursue is that it is probably the same mistake our pve friend from earlier in the thread was making as well. Neither of you came right out and said it, but I'm guessing you're both motivated by the fact that winning feels good and losing feels bad, even though intellectually you're both aware that your personal responsibility for those outcomes ended when you selected your build. If the understanding of that reality could become more commonplace then more players might be able to ascend to a place where they can enjoy the fighting itself, rather than the winning, and the game would be better for it since it would no longer be full of players running from even matchups :)

    Yeah whatever dude

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Strider.7849 said:
    I'm a roamer and have been since game release. What's changed? Aside from a reduced population, one of the biggest changes that has affected roaming is mounts and detection. Now enemies can see you coming from quite a ways away. When you get to the T3 camp, not only are you fighting guards (if you don't instantly nuke them) but you also have to deal with people who die and constantly run back over and over and over again - because of the mounts. Solo/Duo roamers used to be able to take towers, now during prime time you'd be lucky to build a guild cata/ram before enemies on mounts can get in the tower. I frequently fight outnumbered and used to love it in the past but these days it can be draining when you don't even get more than a few moments to recover skills, with constant streams of mounted people slamming into you until they win. The way it's changed is you pretty much have to be capping the camp before swords pop, or you may not be able to cap it at all.

    Tbf if you're outnumbered you should expect to lose. I too enjoy fighting outnumbered, but if it is harder to succeed at it now than it was in the past I would count that as progress . . ?

    Whats the purpose of this game if IT would be Just numbers VS numbers? I guess no1 would play IT, especially in a gamemode on which numbers are balanced by how players want IT (and not rgn)

    What's the purpose of the game if balance is so broken players can find builds that allow them to expect victory in outnumbered situations . . ?

    Becoming on of there persons

    So broken builds are okay bc everyone can choose to run broken builds. The trouble with that logic is it works exactly the same for ppl who want to argue that there's nothing wrong with the larger group winning bc everyone can choose to belong to the larger group . . .

    I guess we missing my point here...whether its you or me...Lets Just agree to disagree

    My guess based on what little you've said thus far is your point is that when you find yourself successful in outnumbered situations you give your skill too much credit and your build too little. The reason I thought it was important to pursue is that it is probably the same mistake our pve friend from earlier in the thread was making as well. Neither of you came right out and said it, but I'm guessing you're both motivated by the fact that winning feels good and losing feels bad, even though intellectually you're both aware that your personal responsibility for those outcomes ended when you selected your build. If the understanding of that reality could become more commonplace then more players might be able to ascend to a place where they can enjoy the fighting itself, rather than the winning, and the game would be better for it since it would no longer be full of players running from even matchups :)

    Yeah whatever dude

    Lol thx, that def helped :)

  • I'm also solo roamed in EBG flipping camps and killing guards, it is much harder now with the Warclaw and the few time a Warclaw has helped me escape being killed the new lance has pretty well ruined that since now I can be knocked off my mount and no amount of evasive maneuvers can get you out of that except sheer luck. Most days I don't mind becoming someones bag but it does get old rather quickly, still it is fun/enjoyable to see just how deep into enemy territory you can get, killing a few supply yaks and capping a supply camp is all the better...lol

  • Opal.9324Opal.9324 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't think bravery is the only issue here. I miss when I could flip T3 camps without a mounted gank squad zooming over before I have a chance to finish. Now that only seems to work if I log in when most people are sleeping. Towers are even worse. Feels like trying to solo roam is slowly becoming pointless.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Opal.9324 said:
    I don't think bravery is the only issue here. I miss when I could flip T3 camps without a mounted gank squad zooming over before I have a chance to finish. Now that only seems to work if I log in when most people are sleeping. Towers are even worse. Feels like trying to solo roam is slowly becoming pointless.

    But attackers have mounts and everyone claim they arrive at the camps too fast in order for defenders to defend T0.

    How does it ever reach T3?

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • ThomasC.1056ThomasC.1056 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Opal.9324 said:
    I don't think bravery is the only issue here. I miss when I could flip T3 camps without a mounted gank squad zooming over before I have a chance to finish. Now that only seems to work if I log in when most people are sleeping. Towers are even worse. Feels like trying to solo roam is slowly becoming pointless.

    But attackers have mounts and everyone claim they arrive at the camps too fast in order for defenders to defend T0.

    How does it ever reach T3?

    Because taking camp is PvE and mounts are only used by zerglings to go back to their herd of course ! ;)

    Look at that—you broke Scruffy's sarcasm meters. ~ Taimi.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:
    I had the pleasure of seeing one of the OP's pve heroes solo flip t2 nnc on alpine tonight. I arrived literally one tick too late to contest, then stood in the newly enemy camp and laughed at the other player as he cowered outside on his mount, refusing the 1v1. I thought of this thread and wondered if this was the kind of forgotten courage the OP is longing for lol . . .

    What roaming needs is not players as 'bold' as the one described above, but rather something that will cause players to understand that losing fights is a crucial part of enjoying the game. We can't blame anet, they've already made fighting as free from consequence as possible. So what can we, as players, do to discourage this reluctance . . ?

    What you ask it's simply not possible...the players themselves make the game toxic to play. Permastealth trolls and gankgroups are rampant in WvW atm, in the past people used to /bow before any fight ...now they'll chase you while being in groups..then they'll drop siege on you, with time I adapted my builds and playstyle to deal with such toxic behaviour.

    With that said..I don't run away from an immininent defeat out of respect for myself and the enemy...I take the lesson and come back stronger, that's how I got to this point

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    I had the pleasure of seeing one of the OP's pve heroes solo flip t2 nnc on alpine tonight. I arrived literally one tick too late to contest, then stood in the newly enemy camp and laughed at the other player as he cowered outside on his mount, refusing the 1v1. I thought of this thread and wondered if this was the kind of forgotten courage the OP is longing for lol . . .

    What roaming needs is not players as 'bold' as the one described above, but rather something that will cause players to understand that losing fights is a crucial part of enjoying the game. We can't blame anet, they've already made fighting as free from consequence as possible. So what can we, as players, do to discourage this reluctance . . ?

    What you ask it's simply not possible...the players themselves make the game toxic to play. Permastealth trolls and gankgroups are rampant in WvW atm, in the past people used to /bow before any fight ...now they'll chase you while being in groups..then they'll drop siege on you

    Yeah, I mean.. That's how it was in my dreams too

    [HUNT] the predatory instinct

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    For the past few weeks, I have logged into WvW to see Tier 3 enemy supply camps in EBG and Borderlands.

    This would have been a rare sight in the past when roamers would have gone deep into enemy lands to take their camps.
    It wasn't easy to tier up a supply camp.

    Now? Tier 3 Supply Camps are everywhere.
    We got them, enemies got them, everyone got them.

    And the reason is because our new generation roamers lack the bravery to roam in enemy lands.
    Whether solo, duo or party, they mostly roam in home owned territories only.
    Enter the enemy lands? Rare.

    I even once offered and paid a roamer 2 gold to flip an enemy T3 camp that was supplying SMC with speed yaks that we were trying to take.

    This is just sad.

    Just earlier I watched an old guard roaming guild QQ bravely roaming in enemy territories and fighting outnumbered.
    This is what it means to roam bravely and freely.

    New Generation roamers need to learn this from the old guards.

    It has nothing to do with quality of roamers.

    It has to do with everything is balance disease and most of us have left, or log in just to complete wood and ignore it for another week in favor of other games that don't feel like chores.

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], [RaW][TACO] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    For the past few weeks, I have logged into WvW to see Tier 3 enemy supply camps in EBG and Borderlands.

    This would have been a rare sight in the past when roamers would have gone deep into enemy lands to take their camps.
    It wasn't easy to tier up a supply camp.

    Now? Tier 3 Supply Camps are everywhere.
    We got them, enemies got them, everyone got them.

    And the reason is because our new generation roamers lack the bravery to roam in enemy lands.
    Whether solo, duo or party, they mostly roam in home owned territories only.
    Enter the enemy lands? Rare.

    I even once offered and paid a roamer 2 gold to flip an enemy T3 camp that was supplying SMC with speed yaks that we were trying to take.

    This is just sad.

    Just earlier I watched an old guard roaming guild QQ bravely roaming in enemy territories and fighting outnumbered.
    This is what it means to roam bravely and freely.

    New Generation roamers need to learn this from the old guards.

    It has nothing to do with quality of roamers.

    It has to do with everything is balance disease and most of us have left, or log in just to complete wood and ignore it for another week in favor of other games that don't feel like chores.

    Feel like chores?

    Kind of the same as when a fight commander yells "eyes on the enemy zerg this is boooooooring we get no fights" and when you point out they could attack a T3 keep to get the enemy zergs full attention its like "kitten PPT kittenty kitten". Probably because they know they'll loose that fight. Only fights they win is a good fight after all. Everything else is a chore.

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • Opal.9324Opal.9324 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Opal.9324 said:
    I don't think bravery is the only issue here. I miss when I could flip T3 camps without a mounted gank squad zooming over before I have a chance to finish. Now that only seems to work if I log in when most people are sleeping. Towers are even worse. Feels like trying to solo roam is slowly becoming pointless.

    But attackers have mounts and everyone claim they arrive at the camps too fast in order for defenders to defend T0.

    How does it ever reach T3?

    idk I haven't had any problems getting to camps in time to defend stuff

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Example from real game-play:
    80% time I play on wvw solo. I can't solo T3 camp. Sometimes npc kill me. So there is no any point solo run and be killed by npc.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I read through this thread alot but didn't see anyone mention this, the most obvious reason that people stopped roaming (pre-Warclaw) is ArenaNet removed XP gain from WvW which also removed all the newbie upscaled levellers that roamers were going after?

    Roaming was always about quick and easy kills, never about harassing enemies specifically..

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay, NA | 22 charas, 16k hours, 27k AP | ♀♥♀
    Mains Mariyuuna/Tempest & Alisha Kei/Druid(PvE), Terakura/Spellbreaker & Kitty Koume/Reaper(WvW)
    No need to be best, only good and kind.

  • L A T I O N.8923L A T I O N.8923 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Opal.9324 said:
    I don't think bravery is the only issue here. I miss when I could flip T3 camps without a mounted gank squad zooming over before I have a chance to finish. Now that only seems to work if I log in when most people are sleeping. Towers are even worse. Feels like trying to solo roam is slowly becoming pointless.

    But attackers have mounts and everyone claim they arrive at the camps too fast in order for defenders to defend T0.

    How does it ever reach T3?

    Because on the equation on
    time flipping=time responding
    Movement speed (warclaw) is An important variable

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:
    Example from real game-play:
    80% time I play on wvw solo. I can't solo T3 camp. Sometimes npc kill me. So there is no any point solo run and be killed by npc.

    If you cant handle it... Then dont. Kill a guard to tag it, run away. Let the larger roaming groups and havocs take it, maybe the guilds and failing all that a 50+ zerg.

    Theres no magical rule that says X amount of players have to be able to take an objective and that 1 player always apply to a T3 camp or something is broken. If you cant do it alone, you're meant to group up. Thats the very point of WvW, its the essence of the game mode. If you dont want that thats your choice... but dont kitten blaim the game for your choice.

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Opal.9324 said:
    I don't think bravery is the only issue here. I miss when I could flip T3 camps without a mounted gank squad zooming over before I have a chance to finish. Now that only seems to work if I log in when most people are sleeping. Towers are even worse. Feels like trying to solo roam is slowly becoming pointless.

    But attackers have mounts and everyone claim they arrive at the camps too fast in order for defenders to defend T0.

    How does it ever reach T3?

    Because on the equation on
    time flipping=time responding
    Movement speed (warclaw) is An important variable

    In my experience map awareness and thinking ahead of your opponent far outweigh movement speed.

    I bet that in many situations when a solo roamer try take a camp and suddenly see a defender they might go "kitten speed kittenty OP kitten!" sure, but that defender prolly saw him coming a mile away.

    As a roamer I will often run past friendly camps that are ripe for the taking just because I know that if I where the enemy, I'd already have tried to cap it. And what do you know, I often randomly run into nearby enemies.

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • L A T I O N.8923L A T I O N.8923 Member ✭✭✭✭

    How does it ever reach T3?

    Because on the equation on
    time flipping=time responding
    Movement speed (warclaw) is An important variable

    In my experience map awareness and thinking ahead of your opponent far outweigh movement speed.

    I bet that in many situations when a solo roamer try take a camp and suddenly see a defender they might go "kitten speed kittenty OP kitten!" sure, but that defender prolly saw him coming a mile away.

    As a roamer I will often run past friendly camps that are ripe for the taking just because I know that if I where the enemy, I'd already have tried to cap it. And what do you know, I often randomly run into nearby enemies.

    I mean yeah, defending is half the job and reading the map is of essence, its of fun play of chess to outsmart the enemy this way!

    Still my equasion ain't wrong... Yet the human brains a factor not in account because its a personal variable

  • Straegen.2938Straegen.2938 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2019

    Old school roaming has fallen off partially due to a shrinking population and also due to mounts. With mounts, roaming far from a WP is often a death sentence because players can respond so quickly to swords on a camp and few roamers can escape a pack of players able to break combat and mount up while others keep the roamer in combat.

    @XECOR.2814 said:
    Roamers? You mean gankers?

    Exactly. QQ are not roamers and it is difficult to even argue they are skirmish. Nothing wrong with running gank but don't confuse roamers (players that solo roam, scout, flip) with gankers (players that hunt in groups for other players exclusively typically using OP builds, numbers and comms to overwhelm).

  • In light of another reply I posted on relinking, I will tell you why I don't go deep into enemy territory to get their camps.

    I cannot move, am on a linked server, not a Host... I love playing WvW, but every 2 months I face a new main server to deal with...

    Due to that, and due to the "demanding" power of most host servers, that their linked need to "adapt" to their prefered playstyle, I honestly no longer care about who wins or looses. I couldn't care less if "Our" keep was sieged because by now it doesn't feel like "our" keep but "Their" (the host server's) Keep.

    So why would I go out of my way deep into enemy territory to get their camps? Why, if I no longer care about any winning or loosing? It is much easier to wait for our centuries and camps to get capped and then take them back... quicker XP, less risk of being ganked...

    Before you judge me on that attitude... ArenaNet is responsible for the development of that attitude.

    On one of the links (I am not going to disclose which host) I was spewed out and isolated for not playing a Meta class
    fyi: Due to disabilities, I CAN NOT play a meta class...
    Pathetic attitude from that host right?

    So... why should I take enemy camps deep in enemy territory for them?

    I was a roamer, and was (despite my disabilities) quite succesful in taking those enemy camps, but... I no longer feel ANY need to do so... I fight for THEIR stuff, not OUR stuff... so I decided, I fight for my OWN XP AND LOOT and no longer care about anything else... that is unfortunately the ONLY WAY I can somewhat enjoy WvW these days...

    Just my 2 cents... something to think about

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Depends how much people have played. I still roam solo 95% of the time so that means outnumbered, and if I see a wall down on a tower or keep I'm definitely going to sneak in and try to cap it or kill any players in it. That said, stuff like the thief portal is pretty dumb, and there's dumb stuff on every class now that just makes playing feel like you're being slapped by trout wielding circus clowns over and over again. Sooner or later you get tired of smelling like fish, and go somewhere else with more culinary variety.

    I made myself hungry now, kitten.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    I read through this thread alot but didn't see anyone mention this, the most obvious reason that people stopped roaming (pre-Warclaw) is ArenaNet removed XP gain

    Anyone who want lvup on wvw can do it by books from track. So this is not reason

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Theres no magical rule that says X amount of players have to be able to take an objective and that 1 player always apply to a T3 camp or something is broken. If you cant do it alone, you're meant to group up. Thats the very point of WvW, its the essence of the game mode. If you dont want that thats your choice... but dont kitten blaim the game for your choice.

    I don't blame or angry. I just say - if I see t3 on roam trim I don't pull. It big risk be by increased npc's pressure and get another fraction strike in back.
    I just say what for me more fun take mount and find someone in downstate, or pull someone who try solo my T3 )) I think I am no one.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.