Balance Patch Preview - PvP - Page 11 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Balance Patch Preview - PvP

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  • @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @kmfart.7480 said:
    Profession combat skills arent meant to be perfectly balanced across all classes, but "the meta skill balance" is more about the skill balance helping to drive interesting combat encounters that have many different variables in play. A perfect balance would be boring, and prolly also lead to alot of fights ending in another boring "draw".

    While all these nerfs can be negatively summed up as "Everything you do in Tyria.. now means even less than before". That is not a good thing we all agree, but I guess we will have to wait and see how it actually works in practice, before drawing such a conclusion. I just hope we dont end up with a "mass exodus" scenario, because theres always a certain percentage of the playerbase that never returns.

    I also hope these upcoming changes are done with great care, & with a multitude of devs agreeing with it, & that it (surprisingly) turns out as fun. "Fun" is the keyword here, and if its not more fun, then we prolly are better off with keeping the "un-balance" roughly where it is.

    PvP is stale, change is good.
    I think there is alot of things that are overnerfed, and alot of things that are not nerfed that should be.
    but at the very least there is going to be something new.
    If I was warrior main I would be looking forward to playing with hammer and rifle, they propably wont be any good but its something new to try.
    20might signet looks interesting too. Hopefully we wont end up with same meta or bunker meta, and if we do lets hope devs will be fast to act.

    There goes your credibility, hammer and rifle are going to be trash. Sorry you're so bad that you think evade spamming is healthy for the game, and that you're the only one having trouble with warrior Axe 1. Real pathetic, ANET balancing around trash players with a reaction time of a turtle.

  • Anyone know if its good to mayb go full power now than maurauder in stat gear to compensate for dmg loss, if u want to b/remain bursty?

  • tony.9425tony.9425 Member
    edited February 21, 2020

    One has to understand the logic.... I thought anet reached their level of incapacity by making Stability aka Stand your Ground stackable.

    Now you want to reduce powercreep and INCREASE the CD of Stability?

    Just one dude on this universe - tell me the point? Why are you - only after 6years finally - reducing powercreep and then in the same move nerfing the most important buff in WvW to make people "feel" the reduced powercreep.

    You want peole to hit like noodles and stay in stuns/knockdowns etc.... Nice gameplay.

    Years after releasing one of the best MMOs ever - being in maintenance mode - we still are waiting for competent changes. So finally after losing even the last loyal fans of the Gamemode you touch powercreep and in the same time you remove the basis of fun, long, interesting and adrenaline filled fights - Stability.

    It's funny that no one on anet wonders "why the hell all the people quit the game? What are we doing wrong? Was giving mounts a 1shot skill in wvw a good idea? Was removing stab basically a good idea? Was Desert Borderlands a good idea?"

    Just hire finally some people who are competent in their jobs, so you can maybe earn money again with this game.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @tunococman.7324 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @kmfart.7480 said:
    Profession combat skills arent meant to be perfectly balanced across all classes, but "the meta skill balance" is more about the skill balance helping to drive interesting combat encounters that have many different variables in play. A perfect balance would be boring, and prolly also lead to alot of fights ending in another boring "draw".

    While all these nerfs can be negatively summed up as "Everything you do in Tyria.. now means even less than before". That is not a good thing we all agree, but I guess we will have to wait and see how it actually works in practice, before drawing such a conclusion. I just hope we dont end up with a "mass exodus" scenario, because theres always a certain percentage of the playerbase that never returns.

    I also hope these upcoming changes are done with great care, & with a multitude of devs agreeing with it, & that it (surprisingly) turns out as fun. "Fun" is the keyword here, and if its not more fun, then we prolly are better off with keeping the "un-balance" roughly where it is.

    PvP is stale, change is good.
    I think there is alot of things that are overnerfed, and alot of things that are not nerfed that should be.
    but at the very least there is going to be something new.
    If I was warrior main I would be looking forward to playing with hammer and rifle, they propably wont be any good but its something new to try.
    20might signet looks interesting too. Hopefully we wont end up with same meta or bunker meta, and if we do lets hope devs will be fast to act.

    There goes your credibility, hammer and rifle are going to be trash. Sorry you're so bad that you think evade spamming is healthy for the game, and that you're the only one having trouble with warrior Axe 1. Real pathetic, ANET balancing around trash players with a reaction time of a turtle.

    First of all, learn to read and comprehend what you read before you post.
    sec of all, axe chain from warrior deals as MORE damage then soul spiral from reaper.

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    get rid of the might stacks from mantra of pain... a power mes with full might and full vuln is a huge buff to the skill. you're making it 100% more broke.

    Ye, so broke, nerfed all phantasms/weapon skills and shatter by 33%. A class with worst sustained damage, good job I'd say /s
    What is "broken" (not in a good sense lmao) is chrono(its not just useless but its clunky as hell even in pve)/onedodgeman xD. (mantra face req. is dumb).

  • @Odik.4587 said:
    Ye, so broke, nerfed all phantasms/weapon skills and shatter by 33%. A class with worst sustained damage, good job I'd say /s
    What is "broken" (not in a good sense lmao) is chrono(its not just useless but its clunky as hell even in pve)/onedodgeman xD. (mantra face req. is dumb).

    with the trait, the only thing that will be nerfed on gs is the auto.

  • Ertrak.9506Ertrak.9506 Member ✭✭✭

    Yo CMC can we get that Revenant mace 3 change for PvE? That's a significant buff.

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2020

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:
    Ye, so broke, nerfed all phantasms/weapon skills and shatter by 33%. A class with worst sustained damage, good job I'd say /s
    What is "broken" (not in a good sense lmao) is chrono(its not just useless but its clunky as hell even in pve)/onedodgeman xD. (mantra face req. is dumb).

    with the trait, the only thing that will be nerfed on gs is the auto.

    Slap yourself and read patchnotes again. Especially about MoP.

  • Just thinking about the mirage nerf. Maybe you can add 50 endurance on Dune Cloak ?
    No more infinite horizon and double dodge combo, no more elusive mind and double dodge combo and an option avable for mirage to have 2 dodge but at a cost.
    My 2 cents.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2020

    @Odik.4587 said:
    Slap yourself and read patchnotes again. Especially about MoP.

    you're the one that needs to read it again. shatter isn't nerfed 33% lol.

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2020

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:
    Slap yourself and read patchnotes again. Especially about MoP.

    you're the one that needs to read it again. shatter isn't nerfed 33% lol.

    Thats average for most of classes, shoulda mention it was 13/20/20 exclusively? See how much MoP damage was nerfed ?
    It would be actually good if at least one build would be playble since mirage and chrono arent comign back anymore .
    But yes, they should have nerfed might stacks ~6. Might be be needed now :joy:

  • @Neil.3825 said:
    Just thinking about the mirage nerf. Maybe you can add 50 endurance on Dune Cloak ?
    No more infinite horizon and double dodge combo, no more elusive mind and double dodge combo and an option avable for mirage to have 2 dodge but at a cost.
    My 2 cents.

    Fair idea.

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2020

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Neil.3825 said:
    Just thinking about the mirage nerf. Maybe you can add 50 endurance on Dune Cloak ?
    No more infinite horizon and double dodge combo, no more elusive mind and double dodge combo and an option avable for mirage to have 2 dodge but at a cost.
    My 2 cents.

    Fair idea.

    Makes no sense at all for several already mentioned reasons. Even more considering Dune Cloak is less skillful and active as a dodgetrait then IH when ambsuhes are designed well. You just try to be generous on a low reward trait to justify an overnerf and the deletion of skill ceiling at other places of the spec.

    When your goal is to create a viable but less op and more skilled/ less noobfriendly Mirage meta then the one dodge change is nothing you shoud vote for because it does quite the opposite. If anything will be viable on Mirage after that change you can be sure it will be more passive, more braindead and most likely more or at least as annoying to fight as the current meta Condimirage build. Same will count for replacing core Mesmer builds in the case Mirage will not be played. So all what the one dodge change does, is deleting skillful and active power Mirage builds from the game while Condimirage still stays passive and noobfriendly, with more dodge on cd spam with even less incentives (and per se no ability anymore) for active, reactive and tactical pure offensive dodges while having a higher need of specing into passive and non reactive facetank sustain (from Chaosline or Inspiration) to compensate the overnerf in active and reactive dodge sustain (ofc only in case it still will be viable).

    With other words: Voting for the one dodge change only makes sense when you hope that Mirage will dissapear completely because of this. In terms of making it more skilled/less noobcarry the change is completely nonsense.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Neil.3825 said:
    Just thinking about the mirage nerf. Maybe you can add 50 endurance on Dune Cloak ?
    No more infinite horizon and double dodge combo, no more elusive mind and double dodge combo and an option avable for mirage to have 2 dodge but at a cost.
    My 2 cents.

    I'd rather have Anet give Mirage two regular dodges and make Mirage Cloak only accessible via those mirrors.

  • @Odik.4587 said:
    snip

    did you read the upcoming balance notes in the profession sub forum?

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Neil.3825 said:
    Just thinking about the mirage nerf. Maybe you can add 50 endurance on Dune Cloak ?
    No more infinite horizon and double dodge combo, no more elusive mind and double dodge combo and an option avable for mirage to have 2 dodge but at a cost.
    My 2 cents.

    I'd rather have Anet give Mirage two regular dodges and make Mirage Cloak only accessible via those mirrors.

    This makes far more sense to me than removing a dodge which game wide save for DD is set at 2.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2020

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Makes no sense at all for several already mentioned reasons. Even more considering Dune Cloak is less skillful and active as a dodgetrait then IH when ambsuhes are designed well. You just try to be generous on a low reward trait to justify an overnerf and the deletion of skill ceiling at other places of the spec.

    Mind restating/requoting what those reasons are? I believe you've done this before, but I have no idea what thread or page.
    The only thing I want is for mirage in its current state is what you mention below. How we get there is up for debate. If this dodge nerf isn't it, then communicate what is.

    When your goal is to create a viable but less op and more skilled/ less noobfriendly Mirage meta then the one dodge change is nothing you shoud vote for because it does quite the opposite. If anything will be viable on Mirage after that change you can be sure it will be more passive, more braindead and most likely more or at least as annoying to fight as the current meta Condimirage build. Same will count for replacing core Mesmer builds in the case Mirage will not be played. So all what the one dodge change does, is deleting skillful and active power Mirage builds from the game while Condimirage still stays passive and noobfriendly, with more dodge on cd spam with even less incentives (and per se no ability anymore) for active, reactive and tactical pure offensive dodges while having a higher need of specing into passive and non reactive facetank sustain (from Chaosline or Inspiration) to compensate the overnerf in active and reactive dodge sustain (ofc only in case it still will be viable). With other words: Voting for the one dodge change only makes sense when you hope that Mirage will dissapear completely because of this. In terms of making it more skilled/less noobcarry the change is completely nonsense.

    Let's assume this is correct.
    What are we looking for then, if it isn't making people pick Dune Cloak for dodges so they can play axe, removing dodge while stunned from Infinite horizon and giving it to EM, or adding vigor uptime to a GM that isnt IH so that they can dodge more frequently if they don't commit to burst?

    Any solution that fixes the current issue with Mirage is debatable.

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2020

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Makes no sense at all for several already mentioned reasons. Even more considering Dune Cloak is less skillful and active as a dodgetrait then IH when ambsuhes are designed well. You just try to be generous on a low reward trait to justify an overnerf and the deletion of skill ceiling at other places of the spec.

    Mind restating/requoting what those reasons are? I believe you've done this before, but I have no idea what thread or page.
    The only thing I want is for mirage in its current state is what you mention below. How we get there is up for debate. If this dodge nerf isn't it, then communicate what is.

    When your goal is to create a viable but less op and more skilled/ less noobfriendly Mirage meta then the one dodge change is nothing you shoud vote for because it does quite the opposite. If anything will be viable on Mirage after that change you can be sure it will be more passive, more braindead and most likely more or at least as annoying to fight as the current meta Condimirage build. Same will count for replacing core Mesmer builds in the case Mirage will not be played. So all what the one dodge change does, is deleting skillful and active power Mirage builds from the game while Condimirage still stays passive and noobfriendly, with more dodge on cd spam with even less incentives (and per se no ability anymore) for active, reactive and tactical pure offensive dodges while having a higher need of specing into passive and non reactive facetank sustain (from Chaosline or Inspiration) to compensate the overnerf in active and reactive dodge sustain (ofc only in case it still will be viable). With other words: Voting for the one dodge change only makes sense when you hope that Mirage will dissapear completely because of this. In terms of making it more skilled/less noobcarry the change is completely nonsense.

    Let's assume this is correct.
    What are we looking for then, if it isn't making people pick Dune Cloak for dodges so they can play axe, removing dodge while stunned from Infinite horizon and giving it to EM, or adding vigor uptime to a GM that isnt IH so that they can dodge more frequently if they don't commit to burst?

    Any solution that fixes the current issue with Mirage is debatable.

    @bravan.3876 said:
    The change to Mirage Cloak never was called a trade off from Anet side if you read closely. It just feels like one because the change literally does the same as an mechanical Anet trade off (deleting core mechanics, even more deleting a game/classwide basic mechanic of having at least 2 dodge available. The minimum of 2 dodges makes absolutely sense in terms of giving the player the ability of reactive dodge gameplay and skillful management of endurence reggen/vigor in a combat system like gw2 has. It makes no sense at all (no matter how strong the dodges of a class are) to limit dodge bar to only one dodge. On not a single class that one dodge change would make sense, but in particular not on classes/specs are build around doing more with dodges than just avoiding attacks (that is why Daredevil got more dodges and not less). So no matter if you call that change to Mirage an additional trade off (what you could because it just is doing the same, by deleting core mechanics) or if you just call it a normal nerf move doesn't matter, this change is totally unlogical, it removes skill ceiling and makes Mirage even more passive (making pure offensive dodges and for that tactical and active uses of ambushes/IH completely impossible, tactical deepneess and harder decisionmaking and the higehr opportunity costs in dodgemanagement are gone), completely contradicts the elite mechanic itself by overnerfing the resource it actually needs to even work, makes the spec unnecessary clunky (if not unplayable) and hurts in particular high skill ceiling and active power builds more while not rly adressing the root problems of passive Condimirage. Once again, if we even see any Mirage after patch than you can be sure they will be even more braindead and passive (forcing players to trait into passive chaosline sustain even more and maybe even in addition to inspiration to compensate the lose in active and reactive dodge defense) and it will be condi or hybrid because condistyle is still ez passive playstyle (even on core Mesmer, aka passive condi dmg from normal clone autoattacks). And that dear forum nerf complain camper is contradicting the goal of all of you to make Mirage less noobfriendly. You simply delete skillful builds from Mirage by overnerfing them for the sake of balancing Condimirage. So don't be surprised when you will not find any Mesmer with a skillful Powermirage build after patch anymore.

    @bravan.3876 said:
    I guess Anet thinks they can rebalance with normal balance moves later if an elite get overnerfd by trade off (or a normal nerf that just act like a trade off by removing core mechanics as we have on Mirage), while not seeing that they sometimes even remove fundamental core mechanics an elite needs to work or nerf in ways completely contradicting to the elite mechanic itself, what does not make sense in the first place and often at least removes skill ceiling/ tactical deepness/ mechanical complexety and make specs unfun and clunky by touching basic (core or elite) mechanics. Means all compensating buffs they might do in later patches at other place of the elite or the class as a whole will just lower the skill cap even more and will not help vs the artificial produced clunkyness of specs by acting versus their underlying core and elite mechanics in the first step. Follow up buffs in other places will not make up for previous nerfs at wrong places in terms of how fun and unclunky something is to play and in terms of lowered skill ceiling/ tactical deepness and mechanical complexity.

    Here is a perfect example for that:
    I found a funny (actually more sad) suggestion somewhere on how to rebalance/ buff Mirage later if it turns out that the one dodge change is too hard of an overnerf. I cannot remember where i read/saw it, i watched too many videos and read too many posts about the upcoming patch to remember where i noticed what. But it got suggested, that they could introduce a new trait in Mirage line that gives Mirage endurance back when applying confusion. I thought i didn't get that right first. Sometimes i ask myself if ppl even do the effort to enable their brains before starting to tinker with balance or if the problem only is, that the Mesmer mechanics are too complicated/ complex and too high IQ for most ppl to understand. But at least use basic logic then or not?
    I mean you kill the whole spec first with all build diversity and inlcuding all high skill ceiling and active Powermirage builds (which do not cause any balance problem at all currently) with the one dodge change for the sake of balancing Condimirage and then the only problematic op build is the only one you will later compensate by a "get more dodges for applying condis" trait? Seriously? Means in the end Condimirage will be the only playstyle gets compensated for previous nerfs (while still being clunky) not even addressing the passive condi playstyle and for that will maybe be viable again, while being even more passive and dodge spammy because with only one dodge and higher endurance gain or -reggen you force the player to just spam dodges on cd (means as soon as the one endurance bar is full) while on the other side they will not have the ability to use dodge pure offensive for active and well timed tactical outplays (because in 90% of all cases you have no dodge rdy when a well timed moment for an pure offensive and tactical outplay dodge will be up). Well done, you just produced an even more braindead, passive and dodge spammy Condimirage than we currently have while you killed all already way more active and high skill ceiling power builds and with that all build diversity for Mirage for nothing. Condimirage will be meta again because the only playstyle that got compensated for previous nerfs but now with lower skill ceiling, less tactical deepness, less mechanical complexity but more clunky and still the same op balance problem with passive and spammy playstyle. If you add a trait will give more endurance for either confusion or vuln (so that Powermirage builds gets compensated too) you then have the same problem with Powermirage: more clunky more dodgespammy, less active. GG you created the same status we have now just on a higher clunky lvl with more passive, more dodgespammy and more noobfriedly and more toxic/ annoying playstyle but you now turned even Powermirage into that.

    That is the big big point: you can't compensate deleted skill ceiling/ tactical deepness/ mechanical complexity with later buffs on other places. You might bring elites back into meta when overnerfed yes, but with even easier and more toxic and passive playstyle.

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Mirage now is supposed to have only one dodge. It got said several times already why this is a bad plan, it downgrades skill ceiling in several aspects of the spec, it is contrary to the spec mechanic and it will make Mirage clunky if not completely unplayable in competitive modes, without even fixing the passive playstyle on Condimirage . Looking at Mesmer player and Mesmer hater this is a lose-lose situation just that Mesmer hater don't even have enough clue of the spec to even see that. Because in case Mirage will be playable in any form than you can be sure it will be even less skillful and even more lame then what we have today, probably some chaos-inspi-bunker kitten no one will like.

    Other ideas for trade offs are mentioned i will not repeat. Another idea (even though not rly doable and probably too harsh) would be to lock out Mirage from traitlines like Chaos or Inspiration. That would be an insane restriction in build diversity but at least would not kill the whole playstyle and makes sense in the way that Mirage is supposed to have high active sustain from dodges and counterpressure from each dodge and for that it doesn't need more passive sustain (from Chaos) or less reactive/ more spammy sustain (from Inspiration) in addition because the synergy is too strong. The Mirage trade off would be that player cannot use Chaos or Inspiration in addition to Mirage traitline. I would never suggest such thing because it is crazy and better would be to just rework those 2 lines into something more active (Chaos) or less spammy/ more reactive (Inspiration). But even this crazy trade off i would prefer over the current plan. That shows how even more crazy that one dodge trade off idea is.

    There are many more, i also do not quote all the posts where i explained why IH is not the issue what makes Condimirage op, and i also do not quote the posts of other player describing why Mirrors can not count as substitution for normal dodges. Just check Mirage trade off threads (there are a few on page 1 and 2).

    In the end, from Anets PoV of trade off (the definition Anet seems to have for trade offs), Mirage already has one. Additonally Mirage also has several inherent costs for using ambush/IH elite mechanic. It also already is nerfed to a point where it has clearly less dodges available than most other classes (and dodges from Mirrors are not even equal to nomal dodges, they worth clearly less). There is per se no reason at all to nerf Mirages ability to dodge even more.

    The only playstyle on Mirgae that is just as braindead, noobfriendly and power creeped as every other meta build from other classes (so not even more problematic than other classes metabuilds) we currently have and for that problematic in terms of the new balance patch for less power creep is Condi/ Hybridmirage. And the reason is not that Mirage can dodge while stunned or cover some casts with dodging, the reason is that condi ambushes are bad and too passive designed (or at least op in dmg application) while Mesmer barely has active ways of condiapplication through shatters anymore. But it starts with normal autoattacks from clones on condi weapons already, they do insane amount of passive dmg, while clones autoattacks on power weapons do nearly zero dmg (core problem has nothing to do with Mirage).
    Means all you need to do is

    1. directly nerfing condi clones normal autoattacks to have zero dmg like power clone autoattacks and

    2. either rework condi ambushes (that they are less about only applying dmg but more about having effects the player can active and tactical work with and require a different timing then pure defensive dodges, means they force the player to go for pure offensive dodges to perfectly time an effect on the opponent, analogical to sword ambush) or at least directly nerf condi clone ambush dmg (for example make scepter ambushes only have one or two hits with a balanced amount of confusion stacks, so it doesn't overperform with a traits like Sharper Images). To make a dodgetrait less passive which is only build around dmg and not about effects in the first place, you need to find the equilibrium between not adding a too weak dmg-reward on dodge (so it doesn't worth active offensive dodging only for a timed application of that weak effect, what we have with Dune Cloak atm) but also not too strong (so pure defensive dodging is enough to get good reward from the dodge trait as a pure passive side effect, what we have on Condi ambushes with IH atm). I would prefer the first way to rework condi ambushes to be more about effects and less about pure dmg. But a simple direct nerf of condi clone ambush dmg to a good equilibrium would do the job too, with less work from Anet. That would make Condimirage more balanced, less passive and more skilled instead making it less op by deleting every skill ceiling the IH/ambush mechanic can have and without deleting not overperforming and active and high skill ceiling Powermirage builds as a spin-off.

    If you think Mirage needs a second trade off, just because it sounds good, then trade off suggestions like limited clone cap are way better because they do not contradict the whole Mirage mechanic and do not overnerf the resource the elite even needs to work (not to mention that it is a game-and classwide mechanic to have at least a 2 dodges bar for good reasons, because having only one dodge would lower the skill ceiling in terms of dodge management on all classes by making it more spammy on cd, and it gets the more braindead spammy the more you add endurance reggen as compensation to a one dodge bar. Mirage just gets double dumbed down by that because the whole mechanic gets contradicted and with that all inherent skill ceiling it has. It makes pure offensive and for that well timed, active and tactical dodges for ambush rewards impossible).

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Evon Skyfyre.9673Evon Skyfyre.9673 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2020

    ...............

    MsTrandentia - Leader of Tyrian Mystical Tours [PORT]

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2020

    Thanks for the reminder.
    Regarding this:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    -Snip-

    The only playstyle on Mirgae that is just as braindead, noobfriendly and power creeped as every other meta build from other classes (so not even more problematic than other classes metabuilds) we currently have and for that problematic in terms of the new balance patch for less power creep is Condi/ Hybridmirage.

    The core of that is true. I have no issue with power mirage as it stands.

    And the reason is not that Mirage can dodge while stunned or cover some casts with dodging, the reason is that condi ambushes are bad and too passive designed **(or at least op in dmg application) **while Mesmer barely has active ways of condiapplication through shatters anymore. But it starts with normal autoattacks from clones on condi weapons already, they do insane amount of passive dmg, while clones autoattacks on power weapons do nearly zero dmg (core problem has nothing to do with Mirage).
    Means all you need to do is
    1. directly nerfing condi clones normal autoattacks to have zero dmg like power clone autoattacks and
    2. either rework condi ambushes (that they are less about only applying dmg but more about having effects the player can active and tactical work with and require a different timing then pure defensive dodges, means they force the player to go for pure offensive dodges to perfectly time an effect on the opponent, analogical to sword ambush) or at least directly nerf condi clone ambush dmg.

    Fair.

    If you think Mirage needs a second trade off, just because it sounds good, then trade off suggestions like limited clone cap are way better because they do not contradict the whole Mirage mechanic and do not overnerf the resource the elite even needs to work (not to mention that it is a game-and classwide mechanic to have a least 2 dodges bar for good reasons, because having only one dodge would lower the skill ceiling in terms of dodge management on all classes by making it more spammy on cd, and it gets the more braindead spammy the more you add endurance reggen as compensation to a one dodge bar.

    Also fair. I don't mind taking condi damage from shatters. That's telegraphed and is predictable.

    I wouldn't mind the above in lieu of the dodge nerf. If I played staff mirage and devs said -1 dodge, I'd just get angry and lean harder into the passive spam and blink away when anyone got close to me. I'd also probably never consider touching axe unless I found a burst combo that made it work like backstab thief does now. Bravan's right in that sense. I'm pretty sure not having 2 dodges is just going to make mirages not put themselves in a position where that drawback can be exploited, which will weed out bad players and make the good ones even more obnoxious/noncommittal.

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Would clones doing dps along side mesmer make sense cuz their clones. Mirages can't damage cuz their mirages.
    Would it not make sense if mirages trade off was the damage being applied by the mirage player itself and the mirages move and attack randomly to confuse the player but do no damage, maybe provide some utility as well. This way if done right it's not a nerf or trade up but a trade off. Clones damage but mirages don't. Obviously some skill would have to be altered as well as damage increased on the mirage skills but it would be a trade off that makes sense and could still be made very viable if done right. I dont play a lot of mesmer so the idea may be very flawed. Losing a dodge is to much a trade off for any class, their evasiveness could have been slightly shaved in way less detrimental ways.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2020

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    Thanks for the reminder.
    Regarding this:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    -Snip-

    The only playstyle on Mirgae that is just as braindead, noobfriendly and power creeped as every other meta build from other classes (so not even more problematic than other classes metabuilds) we currently have and for that problematic in terms of the new balance patch for less power creep is Condi/ Hybridmirage.

    The core of that is true. I have no issue with power mirage as it stands.

    And the reason is not that Mirage can dodge while stunned or cover some casts with dodging, the reason is that condi ambushes are bad and too passive designed **(or at least op in dmg application) **while Mesmer barely has active ways of condiapplication through shatters anymore. But it starts with normal autoattacks from clones on condi weapons already, they do insane amount of passive dmg, while clones autoattacks on power weapons do nearly zero dmg (core problem has nothing to do with Mirage).
    Means all you need to do is
    1. directly nerfing condi clones normal autoattacks to have zero dmg like power clone autoattacks and
    2. either rework condi ambushes (that they are less about only applying dmg but more about having effects the player can active and tactical work with and require a different timing then pure defensive dodges, means they force the player to go for pure offensive dodges to perfectly time an effect on the opponent, analogical to sword ambush) or at least directly nerf condi clone ambush dmg.

    Fair.

    If you think Mirage needs a second trade off, just because it sounds good, then trade off suggestions like limited clone cap are way better because they do not contradict the whole Mirage mechanic and do not overnerf the resource the elite even needs to work (not to mention that it is a game-and classwide mechanic to have a least 2 dodges bar for good reasons, because having only one dodge would lower the skill ceiling in terms of dodge management on all classes by making it more spammy on cd, and it gets the more braindead spammy the more you add endurance reggen as compensation to a one dodge bar.

    Also fair. I don't mind taking condi damage from shatters. That's telegraphed and is predictable.

    I wouldn't mind the above in lieu of the dodge nerf. If I played staff mirage and devs said -1 dodge, I'd just get angry and lean harder into the passive spam and blink away when anyone got close to me. I'd also probably never consider touching axe unless I found a burst combo that made it work like backstab thief does now. Bravan's right in that sense. I'm pretty sure not having 2 dodges is just going to make mirages not put themselves in a position where that drawback can be exploited, which will weed out bad players and make the good ones even more obnoxious/noncommittal.

    Hopefully this isn't obnoxious but if it is feel free to warn/infract:

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    we’re expecting to make further adjustments based on player feedback as well as our own internal review.

    Some thoughts instead of the dodge nerf, potentially.

    That way fixing mirage doesnt break power variants.

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2020

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    we’re expecting to make further adjustments based on player feedback as well as our own internal review.

    I think it would be beneficial to examine how the mirage playstyle works and balance based on that first. Right now the bulk of the damage delivered through the only variant they have that causes major issues is condi damage through clones, as Bravan states. The dodge shave doesn't get to the core of the issue. Can you for this iteration at least have all clones for mirage that do condition ticks on auto do no damage or have a tiny chance to do a single condi stack on auto instead of the dodge nerf?

    That way fixing mirage doesnt break power variants.

    :+1:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Would clones doing dps along side mesmer make sense cuz their clones. Mirages can't damage cuz their mirages.
    Would it not make sense if mirages trade off was the damage being applied by the mirage player itself and the mirages move and attack randomly to confuse the player but do no damage, maybe provide some utility as well. This way if done right it's not a nerf or trade up but a trade off. Clones damage but mirages don't. Obviously some skill would have to be altered as well as damage increased on the mirage skills but it would be a trade off that makes sense and could still be made very viable if done right. I dont play a lot of mesmer so the idea may be very flawed. Losing a dodge is to much a trade off for any class, their evasiveness could have been slightly shaved in way less detrimental ways.

    Hard to say anything to that idea, you would need to get way more detailed about how you imagine that spec to work. If you want clones to be main (and if i understand right, the ONLY) sourge of dmg and effects (like daze) you would need to add more command skill buttons, so everything the clones do becomes player controlled and for that active. You could use shatters for that, so instead of clone destoying for effects they become clone command buttons and Mirgae doesn't use the dodge button anymore for that. But that is a very big and time consuming rework i doubt will ever happen. Keep that idea for the next elite spec (if we ever will get other elite spec). I don't think it is necessary to rework Mirage that heavily. The "command clones via dodge button"-idea and IH/ambush mechanic is per se active and an interesting and skillful way of playing. All that is needed is that ambushes (from Mesmer itself and from clones) are well designed (preferable about applying effects you need to time well and different from pure defensive dodges over simple pure dmg application) and not op in dmg. You can fine adjust Mirage in so many ways to only nerf roots of balance problems (you just need to have some class knowledge to see that) but Anet decided to use the hammer for a big killing move and that in a very unlogical elite mechanic contradicting way, will not even make Condimirage less passive and less noobcarry.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2020

    @Evon Skyfyre.9673 said:
    I have one sincere question, why are stats deemed ok to go into the game, eventually changed? It reminds me of a mechanics joke. "Don't look up a torque setting, just strip the bolt and back it off half a turn". Humor aside, I can't help but feel like those making these decisions are unsure how to balance the game so they keep changing the stats hoping for the best? Players in game speculated it is to drive us to play other classes, and not dwell on one. Others said it's forced socialization (pushing us to group more). Seriously, why do we see what was deemed ok at some point changed, and changed, and changed?? Before some one flames me, I am dead serious. Please explain.

    Because the playerbase, the expacs, the prevalence of classes in the meta, the understanding players have of previously thought-to-be-useless traits and skills keep changing and changing and changing.

    Balance is a moving target. Stat changes are just a tool to get to that target that happens to be (relatively) easy to do without speaking to multiple teams (like the art and animation teams) about having to recraft how skills behave because a small group of players that like hitting each other for fun are whining 200% loud.

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2020

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    we’re expecting to make further adjustments based on player feedback as well as our own internal review.

    I think it would be beneficial to examine how the mirage playstyle works and balance based on that first. Right now the bulk of the damage delivered through the only variant they have that causes major issues is condi damage through clones, as Bravan states. The dodge shave doesn't get to the core of the issue. Can you for this iteration at least have all clones for mirage that do condition ticks on auto do no damage or have a tiny chance to do a single condi stack on auto instead of the dodge nerf?

    That way fixing mirage doesnt break power variants.

    :+1:

    I edited this post, but I meant it. Just neglected to mention that damage shave should also include to some degree staff and scepter ambushes and the conditions they put out, while we are waiting for a condition change that puts condition damage on the mirage or its shatters/a rework to ambushes for the above that is not as passive as the current variant.

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    we’re expecting to make further adjustments based on player feedback as well as our own internal review.

    I think it would be beneficial to examine how the mirage playstyle works and balance based on that first. Right now the bulk of the damage delivered through the only variant they have that causes major issues is condi damage through clones, as Bravan states. The dodge shave doesn't get to the core of the issue. Can you for this iteration at least have all clones for mirage that do condition ticks on auto do no damage or have a tiny chance to do a single condi stack on auto instead of the dodge nerf?

    That way fixing mirage doesnt break power variants.

    :+1:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Would clones doing dps along side mesmer make sense cuz their clones. Mirages can't damage cuz their mirages.
    Would it not make sense if mirages trade off was the damage being applied by the mirage player itself and the mirages move and attack randomly to confuse the player but do no damage, maybe provide some utility as well. This way if done right it's not a nerf or trade up but a trade off. Clones damage but mirages don't. Obviously some skill would have to be altered as well as damage increased on the mirage skills but it would be a trade off that makes sense and could still be made very viable if done right. I dont play a lot of mesmer so the idea may be very flawed. Losing a dodge is to much a trade off for any class, their evasiveness could have been slightly shaved in way less detrimental ways.

    Hard to say anything to that idea, you would need to get way more detailed about how you imagine that spec to work. If you want clones to be main (and if i understand right, the ONLY) sourge of dmg and effects (like daze) you would need to add more command skill buttons, so everything the clones do becomes player controlled and for that active. You could use shatters for that, so instead of clone destoying for effects they become clone command buttons and Mirgae doesn't use the dodge button anymore for that. But that is a very big and time consuming rework i doubt will ever happen. Keep that idea for the next elite spec (if we ever will get other elite spec). I don't think it is necessary to rework Mirage that heavily. The "command clones via dodge button"-idea and IH/ambush mechanic is per se active and an interesting and skillful way of playing. All that is needed is that ambushes (from Mesmer itself and from clones) are well designed (preferable about applying effects you need to time well and different from pure defensive dodges over simple pure dmg application) and not op in dmg. You can fine adjust Mirage in so many ways to only nerf roots of balance problems (you just need to have some class knowledge to see that) but Anet decided to use the hammer for a big killing move and that in a very unlogical elite mechanic contradicting way, will not even make Condimirage less passive and less noobcarry.

    I dont play mirage enough to do it justice in a redesign but I think dazes etc would still have to be applied thru the player model as multiple mirages along hard cc etc out side of the player might be a bit much but if mirages provided some utility or boons to the mirage while acting as distractions by moving around like the player would fit well. Like I said though mirage weapon skills would all need adjustments due to the mirage being the source of damage. Anything g past that would be out of my reach as mirage players would have to design it properly lol

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2020

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    we’re expecting to make further adjustments based on player feedback as well as our own internal review.

    I think it would be beneficial to examine how the mirage playstyle works and balance based on that first. Right now the bulk of the damage delivered through the only variant they have that causes major issues is condi damage through clones, as Bravan states. The dodge shave doesn't get to the core of the issue. Can you for this iteration at least have all clones for mirage that do condition ticks on auto do no damage or have a tiny chance to do a single condi stack on auto instead of the dodge nerf?

    That way fixing mirage doesnt break power variants.

    :+1:

    I edited this post, but I meant it. Just neglected to mention that damage shave should also include to some degree staff and scepter ambushes and the conditions they put out, while we are waiting for a condition change that puts condition damage on the mirage or its shatters.

    Yes i wasn't even going deep into details. I was more reacting to your point to ask for nerfs to specific Mirage skills which actually cause the issue instead to tar all different Mirage builds with the same brush and shaving everything with deleting one dodge bar. Mirage has the advantage of being able to be fine adjusted in many different places. If one of the Mesmers own ambush is too strong or too weak nerf of buff its dmg/ or effect. If one of the clones ambushes are too strong or too weak nerf of buff their dmg or effects.

    Even more funny: They want to delete dodges from all specs (even the squishy ones not having anything else), while the only op spec still gets 8 insane seconds of vigor on f2 use (no nerf to it in the upcoming patch) in Chaostraitline what allows passive and nonreactive facetank gameplay per basic traitline design in addition to the endurance reggen, and not to mention that even in its current state the passive spammable Condimirage build would not even be on par with other metabuilds from other classes anymore without Chaosline used xD

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Would clones doing dps along side mesmer make sense cuz their clones. Mirages can't damage cuz their mirages.
    Would it not make sense if mirages trade off was the damage being applied by the mirage player itself and the mirages move and attack randomly to confuse the player but do no damage, maybe provide some utility as well. This way if done right it's not a nerf or trade up but a trade off. Clones damage but mirages don't. Obviously some skill would have to be altered as well as damage increased on the mirage skills but it would be a trade off that makes sense and could still be made very viable if done right. I dont play a lot of mesmer so the idea may be very flawed. Losing a dodge is to much a trade off for any class, their evasiveness could have been slightly shaved in way less detrimental ways.

    im not sure if its sarcasm or not and that scares me

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2020

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Would clones doing dps along side mesmer make sense cuz their clones. Mirages can't damage cuz their mirages.
    Would it not make sense if mirages trade off was the damage being applied by the mirage player itself and the mirages move and attack randomly to confuse the player but do no damage, maybe provide some utility as well. This way if done right it's not a nerf or trade up but a trade off. Clones damage but mirages don't. Obviously some skill would have to be altered as well as damage increased on the mirage skills but it would be a trade off that makes sense and could still be made very viable if done right. I dont play a lot of mesmer so the idea may be very flawed. Losing a dodge is to much a trade off for any class, their evasiveness could have been slightly shaved in way less detrimental ways.

    im not sure if its sarcasm or not and that scares me

    Not sarcasm at all. I saw mentioned somewhere in a post the damage being moved to the mirage and away from the mirage clones and thought it sounded cool. Wasnt implying that I'd be a nerf in anyway so not sure why ur scared, if u don't like the idea than that's fine was just a idea. I also admitted I don't kno enough about the class to do a proper rework that would do mirage justice.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Would clones doing dps along side mesmer make sense cuz their clones. Mirages can't damage cuz their mirages.
    Would it not make sense if mirages trade off was the damage being applied by the mirage player itself and the mirages move and attack randomly to confuse the player but do no damage, maybe provide some utility as well. This way if done right it's not a nerf or trade up but a trade off. Clones damage but mirages don't. Obviously some skill would have to be altered as well as damage increased on the mirage skills but it would be a trade off that makes sense and could still be made very viable if done right. I dont play a lot of mesmer so the idea may be very flawed. Losing a dodge is to much a trade off for any class, their evasiveness could have been slightly shaved in way less detrimental ways.

    im not sure if its sarcasm or not and that scares me

    Not sarcasm at all. I saw mentioned somewhere in a post the damage being moved to the mirage and away from the mirage clones and thought it sounded cool. Wasnt implying that I'd be a nerf in anyway so not sure why ur scared, if u don't like the idea than that's fine was just a idea. I also admitted I don't kno enough about the class to do a proper rework that would do mirage justice.

    what people hate in the cmirage is the passive gamplay, at least its what they say.
    if you took damage away from mirage and put it into clones..... it would be THE end xd
    and it would be miserable to play against -> mesmer runs away and hides and clones do their thingy.
    and it would be miserable to play -> random aoe guess I lose ALL my damage.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Would clones doing dps along side mesmer make sense cuz their clones. Mirages can't damage cuz their mirages.
    Would it not make sense if mirages trade off was the damage being applied by the mirage player itself and the mirages move and attack randomly to confuse the player but do no damage, maybe provide some utility as well. This way if done right it's not a nerf or trade up but a trade off. Clones damage but mirages don't. Obviously some skill would have to be altered as well as damage increased on the mirage skills but it would be a trade off that makes sense and could still be made very viable if done right. I dont play a lot of mesmer so the idea may be very flawed. Losing a dodge is to much a trade off for any class, their evasiveness could have been slightly shaved in way less detrimental ways.

    im not sure if its sarcasm or not and that scares me

    Not sarcasm at all. I saw mentioned somewhere in a post the damage being moved to the mirage and away from the mirage clones and thought it sounded cool. Wasnt implying that I'd be a nerf in anyway so not sure why ur scared, if u don't like the idea than that's fine was just a idea. I also admitted I don't kno enough about the class to do a proper rework that would do mirage justice.

    what people hate in the cmirage is the passive gamplay, at least its what they say.
    if you took damage away from mirage and put it into clones..... it would be THE end xd
    and it would be miserable to play against -> mesmer runs away and hides and clones do their thingy.
    and it would be miserable to play -> random aoe guess I lose ALL my damage.

    “ damage being moved to the mirage and away from the mirage clones and thought it sounded cool.” (emphasis added).

    He liked the opposite, not moving damage to clones but from clones to the Mesmer.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Would clones doing dps along side mesmer make sense cuz their clones. Mirages can't damage cuz their mirages.
    Would it not make sense if mirages trade off was the damage being applied by the mirage player itself and the mirages move and attack randomly to confuse the player but do no damage, maybe provide some utility as well. This way if done right it's not a nerf or trade up but a trade off. Clones damage but mirages don't. Obviously some skill would have to be altered as well as damage increased on the mirage skills but it would be a trade off that makes sense and could still be made very viable if done right. I dont play a lot of mesmer so the idea may be very flawed. Losing a dodge is to much a trade off for any class, their evasiveness could have been slightly shaved in way less detrimental ways.

    im not sure if its sarcasm or not and that scares me

    Not sarcasm at all. I saw mentioned somewhere in a post the damage being moved to the mirage and away from the mirage clones and thought it sounded cool. Wasnt implying that I'd be a nerf in anyway so not sure why ur scared, if u don't like the idea than that's fine was just a idea. I also admitted I don't kno enough about the class to do a proper rework that would do mirage justice.

    what people hate in the cmirage is the passive gamplay, at least its what they say.
    if you took damage away from mirage and put it into clones..... it would be THE end xd
    and it would be miserable to play against -> mesmer runs away and hides and clones do their thingy.
    and it would be miserable to play -> random aoe guess I lose ALL my damage.

    “ damage being moved to the mirage and away from the mirage clones and thought it sounded cool.” (emphasis added).

    He liked the opposite, not moving damage to clones but from clones to the Mesmer.

    Yeah this^

  • Hylo.1968Hylo.1968 Member ✭✭
    edited February 22, 2020

    Things to nerf: Lightining Rod : reduce the dmg.
    Things not to nerf:
    Deflecting Shot : it's ok if you decrease the power coefficient to 0.01 but don't slow down the projectile. It's already hard to hit moving targets without you making it slower
    Mirage Cloak: I would have reworked IH and vigor uptime instead of destroying the spec

  • mixxed.5862mixxed.5862 Member ✭✭✭

    @tunococman.7324 said:
    Yeah it sounds disgusting to be honest, these patch looks really fail. Nerfing big casting time CCs that you won't land in the first place anyways due to the amount of evade spam, and defensive blocks.

    Nerf damage, but don't touch evade skills like sigh. Bad logic is bad. Nerfing damage when they NEVER considered block spam and made it unrewarding to land high casting time skills like Guardian Hammer 4 or Warrior Hammer 3-4-5. What kind of people does ANET hire, like what is this logic?

    Yet hammer on Warrior will be in a far better spot post-nerf.

  • @Odik.4587 said:

    @ruwani.8624 said:
    If you make those changes to druids after having continuously nerfed us, I will simply delete my account. :)

    Send me your gold and stuff before that plox

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @ruwani.8624 said:
    If you make those changes to druids after having continuously nerfed us, I will simply delete my account. :)

    Send me your gold and stuff before that plox

    ok king

  • tunococman.7324tunococman.7324 Member ✭✭
    edited February 23, 2020

    @mixxed.5862 said:

    @tunococman.7324 said:
    Yeah it sounds disgusting to be honest, these patch looks really fail. Nerfing big casting time CCs that you won't land in the first place anyways due to the amount of evade spam, and defensive blocks.

    Nerf damage, but don't touch evade skills like sigh. Bad logic is bad. Nerfing damage when they NEVER considered block spam and made it unrewarding to land high casting time skills like Guardian Hammer 4 or Warrior Hammer 3-4-5. What kind of people does ANET hire, like what is this logic?

    Yet hammer on Warrior will be in a far better spot post-nerf.

    Fail evidence based on feelings.

    If you don't know how to deal with Warrior hammer skills, you are simply not a good player. There will be NO REASON to avoid or waste endurance on hammer skills because they do no damage, therefore vs. good players you get evade spammed harder because why dodge a 0.01 coefficient when I can save it for your other skills? You are also not baiting stun breaks with a 0.01 coefficient. Sorry, but your evidence is FAIL. You clearly don't fight good players and your evidence is not good enough.

    If you're talking about WvW, anything works in WvW. We are talking about sPvP where people actually are more tryhard mechanics wise.

  • Anet reworks Sickem as an Aoe Revelation and that can activate without a Target.

  • mixxed.5862mixxed.5862 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2020

    @tunococman.7324 said:

    @mixxed.5862 said:

    @tunococman.7324 said:
    Yeah it sounds disgusting to be honest, these patch looks really fail. Nerfing big casting time CCs that you won't land in the first place anyways due to the amount of evade spam, and defensive blocks.

    Nerf damage, but don't touch evade skills like sigh. Bad logic is bad. Nerfing damage when they NEVER considered block spam and made it unrewarding to land high casting time skills like Guardian Hammer 4 or Warrior Hammer 3-4-5. What kind of people does ANET hire, like what is this logic?

    Yet hammer on Warrior will be in a far better spot post-nerf.

    Fail evidence based on feelings.

    If you don't know how to deal with Warrior hammer skills, you are simply not a good player. There will be NO REASON to avoid or waste endurance on hammer skills because they do no damage, therefore vs. good players you get evade spammed harder because why dodge a 0.01 coefficient when I can save it for your other skills? You are also not baiting stun breaks with a 0.01 coefficient. Sorry, but your evidence is FAIL. You clearly don't fight good players and your evidence is not good enough.

    If you're talking about WvW, anything works in WvW. We are talking about sPvP where people actually are more tryhard mechanics wise.

    No, I'm talking about sPvP. Why do you mention "evidence"? There won't be evidence before we've played with the changes for a fair bit and the meta begins to settle.

    While all damage is gone from hard CC skills, the CC aspect itself will be much more valuable. Stun breaks are generally on long cooldowns and most classes lose the majority of their stability access. Passive stunbreaks are completely gone.

    The viability of hammer will largely depend on its ability to stunlock opponents for extended durations - which will likely be possible with most professions after the nerfs! (Likely exception: Firebrand) Of course you'll need to initiate your combo with one of your faster stuns and proper timing, as you do now. If you get a good CC combo off on an opponent that has previously blown all stunbreaks, you're still likely to get the kill. Fierce blow does excellent damage on stunned (full adrenaline eviscerate level!) and in a proper chain you'll be able to recharge it through backbreaker. Swap weapons and follow up with burst. Once you've wasted your enemies stunbreaks, damage is not the issue.

    Tldr: With BIG nerfs to the frequency of stunbreak and stability access across all classes hammer will serve a purpose: CC lockdown.

  • ASV.7819ASV.7819 Member ✭✭

    ArenaNet in the process of patchmaking.
    400538855f2f37784_0.jpg

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 24, 2020

    @tunococman.7324 said:
    If you don't know how to deal with Warrior hammer skills, you are simply not a good player. There will be NO REASON to avoid or waste endurance on hammer skills because they do no damage, therefore vs. good players you get evade spammed harder because why dodge a 0.01 coefficient when I can save it for your other skills? You are also not baiting stun breaks with a 0.01 coefficient. Sorry, but your evidence is FAIL. You clearly don't fight good players and your evidence is not good enough.

    ITT someone who thinks I wont swap to Axe/Shield to evisc you / GS for Arcing or Divider if I hit you with Hammer cc in a heartbeat, because lockdown chain basically guarantees I have enough time to swap if I dont maul you with hammer 2

    Eat this L3 for not burning your stunbreak

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • Alin.2468Alin.2468 Member ✭✭✭

    Less than 24 hours remaining. I shall now prepare for lots and lots of complains, requests for nerfing, requests for buffing, and price increase on materials as players go to play alone in PvP. Fastening my seat belt...

    Click!

    One man trash another man treasure.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 25, 2020

    11 hours remaining.

    Mesmer still doesn't have a glamor trait.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ASV.7819 said:
    Then you will make it impossible to play for core mesmer. Then what? Delete it?

    You're in for a treat!
    Good luck hitting those new pathetic damage shatters without confounding suggestions.

    The degenerate

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ASV.7819 said:
    I'll start with the following words: ArenaNet are VILE POTBOILERS who do their work so clumsy that I have no words. They do the worst in every game mode. I haven’t seen adequate patches since 2018. Mesmers nerf hard every patch, the other classes do not receive any balance.
    This patch is the worst patch of all time of the game. Instead of balancing broken powercreep Anet nerf everything indiscriminately.
    Mesmer
    Mesmer is the most sensitive part of the game. It has been nerfed hard since 2018. First you made chronomancer piece of ****, now you reached to mirages. You reduce endurance of mirage by 50 for PvP and WvW. Did you test it? What is the reason for this ********? Daredevil has 150 endurance, the other classes have 100 and mirage has 50. Are you kidding? Mesmer is no better than training golem dummy. Then you will make it impossible to play for core mesmer. Then what? Delete it?

    My guess would be that the first sentence here is the whole problem with why it been getting nerfed so hard. "Mesmer is the most sensitive part of the game." it probably shouldnt be... but thats just one way to look at it. In realitiy some people tired to tell anet that mirage needed new and unique shatters as a trade off and people constantly continued to deny that and said that the trade off would be "because we dont roll when we dodge" apparently anet things thats not enough so now we are stuck with 1 dodge mirage for a while.... :c

    Necromancer
    You reduce the number of converted boons for axe, scepter, dagger and Boon corruption. Why? Why do you detract necromancer’s essence? Kinda for balance? You don’t make any trade off, don’t add additional effects, just cut it blankly. You don’t reduce amount of buffs for other classes but just reduce their duration. What is the point? Even changes for scourge do not make anything new. You just giving back the old version of F2 for scourge shroud. It will not work.

    Because the power of boons went down. Lets please not make necromancer a boon balancing tool even as a necro main i support this choice completely so long as they lowered and stopped most of the perma boon in pvp settings. Scourge needs a rework entirely reverting one change wont make it better it will still be frustrating to play solo and frustarting to play against. Till they rework it its a pointless elite in pvp alone just consider it a wvw only elite spec for now.

    Elementlist
    Now condisword weaver is one of the strongest metabuilds because of broken healing, evades, damage and stances. Condi weaver is a unkillable dodgebot with endless evades and healing who can stack about 20 stacks of burning on you. Do you thinks this is normal? Lightning rod trait can crit and applies a lot of weakness. You don’t care. The main problem for you is Mesmer.

    Again the first sentence "condisword weaver is one of the strongest metabuilds because of broken healing, evades, damage and stances." they actually fixed this if you read the global notes as stances will no longer be covered by stability and the burn on Prim. stance is dropping in duration considerably. Now you are targeting lightning rod when almost no weavers used this build this is just direct "nerf it more" targeting based on how it reads. To be honest not enough people used lightning rod cause air was not something that commonly fit into weaver builds unless you ran d/d and not many people in reality have the skill to play that properly.

    Warrior
    The most broken class in the game. Especially spellbreaker that is a unkillable killmachine. Permanent cc + dmg 20-50% of hp suggests the need to nerf it first. Don’t forget about permanent 25 stacks of might. WARRIOR MUST BE NERFED.

    This was addressed already with the nerfs to Might gain / duration as well as the trait might makes right. They will stlll have lots of cc but dont espect to see warriors with 20-25 might in high duration anymore thats going to be a thing of the past. Also if warriors want sustain they now need to go back to slotting defenses for adrinal unless they are mad good at dodging everything.

    Revenant
    Power Gerald constantly spams buffs and deals more dmg than you can heal or negate. Buffing the demon traitline, you open the way for new condi spammers, rom which everyone will cry. Renegade traitline didn’t receive any development. Renegade could be the one of the strongest supports. But why? Let’s just nerf one of a unpopular line LOL.

    Again this is already addressed they removed the free break stun on legend swap meaning revs in generally will be considerably more vulnerable to cc attacks. As of right now you cannot hold them still for any amount of time but this will change after patch dont worry. You will see a lot of revs swapping legends on cc thinking its going to still break their stun cause its hared wired into their muscle memory at this point.

    Ranger
    And nothing again. Dumb cutting of damage and healing is unlikely changes anything. Rangers still will play with longbow and greatsword. What about pets: you do nothing. The only viable pets for pvp is a smolescale, gazelle, siamoth and snow owl. You even don’t try do make the other pets more useful.

    The block got nerfed considerably and soulbeast now only get 1 pet in combat. Its still going to be strong but not free and busted like before. Also expect to see alot of people go back to core ranger just to keep pet swap in combat. I bet you there will be alot of core rangers now cause its still gonna be stupidly strong.

    Guardian
    You reduce amount of converted boons for necro, increase cd for mesmer’s mantras, but ignore completely symbolbrand. Guardians mantras an axe is too op and need serious balance.

    Because symbols are not the problem. The problem is more so just with the firebrand line but i agree here for once it was not nerfed enough Firebrand brusiers will probably be one of the strongest things after patch and will need some more nerfs maybe...

    Thief
    Thieves need the reduce of stealth duration provided by Shadow arts traitline, nerf of deadeye and d/p core.

    They kind of already nipped this in the bud in so manyways

    Engineer
    Nothing.

    Pretty sure instant toolbelt projectile dps with no tell still should be nerfed but thats just me. Scrapper might be strong now though it actually might be able to bunker with the overall lower damage.

    chill bro ;) it will work out for the better in the end get ready for that patch!!!!

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ASV.7819 said:
    I'll start with the following words: ArenaNet are VILE POTBOILERS who do their work so clumsy that I have no words. They do the worst in every game mode. I haven’t seen adequate patches since 2018. Mesmers nerf hard every patch, the other classes do not receive any balance.
    This patch is the worst patch of all time of the game. Instead of balancing broken powercreep Anet nerf everything indiscriminately.
    Mesmer
    Mesmer is the most sensitive part of the game. It has been nerfed hard since 2018. First you made chronomancer piece of ****, now you reached to mirages. You reduce endurance of mirage by 50 for PvP and WvW. Did you test it? What is the reason for this ********? Daredevil has 150 endurance, the other classes have 100 and mirage has 50. Are you kidding? Mesmer is no better than training golem dummy. Then you will make it impossible to play for core mesmer. Then what? Delete it?
    Necromancer
    You reduce the number of converted boons for axe, scepter, dagger and Boon corruption. Why? Why do you detract necromancer’s essence? Kinda for balance? You don’t make any trade off, don’t add additional effects, just cut it blankly. You don’t reduce amount of buffs for other classes but just reduce their duration. What is the point? Even changes for scourge do not make anything new. You just giving back the old version of F2 for scourge shroud. It will not work.
    Elementlist
    Now condisword weaver is one of the strongest metabuilds because of broken healing, evades, damage and stances. Condi weaver is a unkillable dodgebot with endless evades and healing who can stack about 20 stacks of burning on you. Do you thinks this is normal? Lightning rod trait can crit and applies a lot of weakness. You don’t care. The main problem for you is Mesmer.
    Warrior
    The most broken class in the game. Especially spellbreaker that is a unkillable killmachine. Permanent cc + dmg 20-50% of hp suggests the need to nerf it first. Don’t forget about permanent 25 stacks of might. WARRIOR MUST BE NERFED.
    Revenant
    Power Gerald constantly spams buffs and deals more dmg than you can heal or negate. Buffing the demon traitline, you open the way for new condi spammers, rom which everyone will cry. Renegade traitline didn’t receive any development. Renegade could be the one of the strongest supports. But why? Let’s just nerf one of a unpopular line LOL.
    Ranger
    And nothing again. Dumb cutting of damage and healing is unlikely changes anything. Rangers still will play with longbow and greatsword. What about pets: you do nothing. The only viable pets for pvp is a smolescale, gazelle, siamoth and snow owl. You even don’t try do make the other pets more useful.
    Guardian
    You reduce amount of converted boons for necro, increase cd for mesmer’s mantras, but ignore completely symbolbrand. Guardians mantras an axe is too op and need serious balance.
    Thief
    Thieves need the reduce of stealth duration provided by Shadow arts traitline, nerf of deadeye and d/p core.
    Engineer
    Nothing.
    On top of that regular client crashes doesn’t add any fun and pleasure.
    To summarize I can say that An# et only exacerbated the disbalance in the pvp.

    I don't agree with the majority of this.
    You claim Engineer got no nerfs. I don't consider damage coeff nerfs nothing, they play a big part in why things do so much damage currently.
    I also don't consider actually having a cast time on rifle 4 now nothing, as before the cast time was so kitten fast it was pretty much instant.
    I also don't consider getting stability on corona burst while traited taken away nothing. that was a BIG nerf to holos.
    I also don't consider hammer autos being reduced in damage via coeff nerfs nothing. less damage will ultimately equal less sustain, due to how impact savant in the scrapper trait line works. Though they'll still be able to finally do what they were intended to do: tank. it's still far from nothing.
    lowering the coeff from prime light beam down to 0.01 is definitely not nothing either.
    I think you get the point.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • At moment is better play on downstate, much more damage =D haahhaha

  • RoyalPredator.9163RoyalPredator.9163 Member
    edited February 27, 2020

    Dear Staff... Now its truly ruined balance! My core ranger LB/GS lacks damage and fighting in slow motion... How to catch up with the slow targeting engine, when noskill shatter shtters spam us?!

    **Ps.: "Kitten" it 100 times! **

  • avey.4201avey.4201 Member ✭✭✭

    The nerf affects ratio of stat into damage, so people running bunker builds got less overall nerf than people using zerk/viper or actually trying to place skill into the game.
    The problem with balance before the patch, was invulnerability/evade spam glass cannon builds, invulnerability could've been made channel skills like guardian, evades not on dodge roll could've been replaced with aegis, as the game is about counter play.
    As of now sPvP is a boring bunker meta fest, only real question is who will alt+F4 first, WvW I'm running around as a zerk, swapping weapons 3-4 times before 15-25 people kill me, I have no sustain, just mindlessly dropping random skills, random dodge because now it doesn't matter what you dodge.
    I'm glad they are finally attempting to balance, but this patch should be rolled back, it's a big step in the wrong direction.
    Just not worth playing without good wholesome murrdurr.