Balance Patch Preview - PvP - Page 8 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Balance Patch Preview - PvP

168101112

Comments

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2020

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Looking at history the origin core Engi never had an f5. F5 for core Engi got added around 2017. What does that mean?

    Look again, it came in the core spec patch in mid 2015, it was vanilla GW2

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Tycura.1982Tycura.1982 Member ✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Second part (anyone interested in reading another wall of text, the first part of my post talking about the PvP patch in general can just scroll up)

    1. Trade offs:
      I rly try to understand the consept and tried to do some research about that. I get the basic consept that says, that some class elites got stuff on top of what corebuilds have (named were Druid, Chrono as exaple) during other classes just got their core mechanics changed by replacing already existing skills with new ones (example Necro) without really adding other skills/cds on top of that. And this more on cds/skills now needs to be compensated by a trade off to make elites on par with core specs. I guess Deadeye, Ele specs, DH aside from Necro specs don't need trade offs in that regard.

    Lets forget for the moment that you can powercreep and overbuff elite specs by just making the replacing skills way better than the core ones as happend to Reaper skills for example for some extent (way faster paced shroud gameplay with way more dmg what barely got compensated by faster shroud lose when i see how long and often i still can be in shroud with my Reaper). Lets also forget for the moment that deleting shroud on Scourge got instantly compensated by barrier mechanic and lets pretend Necro elites don't need any more trade offs because they didn't rly get any more cds/skills in additon compared to core.
    That also counts vice versa btw, core specs with less skills available can be stronger than elites with more skills/cds because all in all the elite skills are too much weaker than the core skills (looking at defensive traitlines a lot of them are stronger than the elite lines, by having lower skill ceiling and less active mechanics often because defensive traitlines still have too less opportunity costs in dmg and are for that powercreeped). But lets forget about that too atm.

    Lets also forget for now that classes which got their trade offs later where already more "normally" nerfed in their elite and core mechanics to deal with meta builds compared to elites which already got their trade off. Means some elites get a trade off on top off several nerfs happend already and would have been unnecessary when they would just have gotten their trade off sooner. On the other side elite specific boons for example like alacrity were given to other classes but chrono is the only class gets a trade off for it because it was implemented as Chrono elite feature.

    Then i tried to compare trade offs from different specs and here is were my problem really starts. I am not sure my friend google gave me all needed informations about specs im not that deep into, means everyone (in particular main class player with more knowledge) can correct me and give me the informations i maybe miss.

    For example Druid (i never played Druid that much, same as Scrapper, i found both specs kind of boring, but i played both a little bit during Hot and when i just lately jumped on Druid while missing that Druid already got a trade off, i couldn't feel any trade off, Druid felt exactly the same for me, ofc aside from other "normal" nerfs and aside from meta changes make it less viable compared to other Ranger specs and even more compared to other support specs atm), so i googled for Druid trade off:
    All i could find as trade off for Druid was a a pet dmg nerf for Druid Pets only. Is that correct or do i miss something here? I mean that would be a joke of a trade off for a class that can just switch to core pets or PoF pets and when i look at current Smokescale being still a very strong pick. HoT pets after Hot release also were broken in dmg they needed nerfs in dmg to be balanced. That is just a normal nerf and not a trade off. Otherwise why is the Soulbeast trade off not just nerfing broken Gazelle dmg (and other PoF pets not used anyway) and we are done? When i then compare the new Soulbeast trade off to the Druid one then Soulbeast is trade offed way way harder than Druid. Do i get that right? When yes, why is Soulbeast treatened that much harder and in a way will affect the playstyle more than on Druid who just has less dmg on pets but no mechanical changes making fun and from players loved combos impossible?

    Example Holo/ Scrapper: Holo/Scrapper trade off supposed to be the lose of f5 toolbelt which was linked to the elite skill on button 0 (Scrapper got vitality reduced in addition). Looking at history the origin core Engi never had an f5. F5 for core Engi got added around 2017. What does that mean? I buff Core with an already unnecessary powercreeped cd additon and replace the f5 by elite spec mechanic skills and call that a trade off? That would be the same as buffing core Mesmer by giving it a core f5 shatter first and then trade off Chronomancer by replacing the core f5 with Continuum Split and Mirage trade off with giving a Mirage specific f5 shatter. You neutralize the elite trade off by pre buffing core to elite lvl, thats a big rofl (again when i miss something here feel free to correct me).

    Example Spellbreaker: Trade off is the lose of adrenalin bars, yet i fail to see how that did lower the impact from burst skills in any remarkable way compared to core. They still both hit like a truck. Overall looks more like a buff than a trade off because the Spellbreaker now needs to build up less adrenalin and has access to the "maximum" burst skills more often for barely any downside on the impact of burst skills (the new lower maximum is still as strong as the old 3bars max). The bit of downside gets compensated by the added pros in the trade off itself (needs less adrenalin). What do i miss?

    Example Daredevil: Trade off is the shorter range for the stealskill Swipe. But the shorter range got instantly compensated by adding a pretty strong unblockable feature. It was just switching a downgrade with an upgrade, that is not a trade off but still Anet managed to make the spec more clunky to play from a too short range but then buffing it in an unhealthy way with an unblockable feature should not exist on instant, no los, range skills. Double dislike!

    Then there are classes i have a hard time to see a difference between "normal" nerfs and a trade off directed to downgrade elite mechanics to bring them more in line to core. For example Rev and FB. What is their trade off? I heard something about Rev loses ability to stunbreak on legend swap, yet can't find anything about this in the global or pvp changes. Also would that be a normal nerf? Why does that count as trade off? It is not even directed at the elite traitline. What is about the planned change to Holo f5? I am a little bit confused how that is supposed to work, like every toolbelt skill gets more cooldown or only the ones already on cd when going into Holo mode? According to the context of the patch it is a nerf no matter how it will work in the end. But is it meant as additional trade off (what would make sense because of what i wrote before) or is it just a normal nerf in context of the big patch nerfing everything?

    Then i look at a class like Mesmer. Both specs will have such clearly downgrades you cannot even mistake them as normal nerfs. They are clearly trade offs. Chrono got triple downgrade by losing f4 statter, losing Illusionary Persona and reworked f1-3 shatters with less dmg when no slow is applied (if i understand that right). 2 of these changes completely change the playstyle remarkable from how it was originally meant to be and make the spec clunky with not respecting how the class needs to work (instant shatters for combos). Chrono is worse than Core now. Not even the planned Soulbeast trade off comes even near in how much the origin Soulbeast mechanic and playstyle will change and get negative affected by its trade off. Soulbeast trade off is a nerf not rly affecting the playstyle in a critical way, it has less cds/skills available now and some combos you needed pet swap for can't be done anymore (i would have prefered simple dmg reduction and lower cc durations on longer cooldowns as trade off because without pet swap Soulbeast gets a bit easier to play mechanically but ofc less lame to play from not being overloaded with impactful cds anymore). Soulbeast trade off is not my first choice but acceptable. It is rly not easy to change Mesmer mechanics without killing them but what happend to Chrono and now Mirage is insane.

    As i already said in an other thread about how to balance elite specs like FB which got more cds without changing or killing the way they are supposed to be played and supposed to work, it is simple: When more cds/skills get added to a skill sample, it is needed to balance the more skills/cds by making each single skill less impactful or less often usable, so that the whole sample overall is not remarkable more impactful than a skill sample with less cds/skills. That can be done by either giving higher cds on single skills, or by making each single skill/cd less impactful in their rewards by lower dmg or like shorter cc duration and less skills with cumulated rewards (for example why does Mantra of Truth apply 3 condis, why not just 1 or 2 aside from dmg. Why is the condi duration so long? MoT would be even power creeped on a Guard spec that has only 3 f3 skills like core Guard and not +12 cds from tomes).

    The cd from Condinuum Split got increased more than one time before the trade off idea even started if i remember right. On top of that they got triple downgrade. Ofc higher cds on sinlge skills is not rly effectual when the mechanic of chrono is to just reset them with CS but why there was not just a trade off like -200 power and -200 vita in addition to the already increased CS cd? It would compensate for the more cds Chrono has without killing the underlying mechanics and playstyle and make it clunky and unplayable in competitive modes.

    Mirage now is supposed to have only one dodge. It got said several times already why this is a bad plan, it downgrades skill ceiling in several aspects of the spec, it is contrary to the spec mechanic and it will make Mirage clunky if not completely unplayable in competitive modes, without even fixing the passive playstyle on Condimirage . Looking at Mesmer player and Mesmer hater this is a lose-lose situation just that Mesmer hater don't even have enough clue of the spec to even see that. Because in case Mirage will be playable in any form than you can be sure it will be even less skillful and even more lame then what we have today, probably some chaos-inspi-bunker kitten no one will like.

    Other ideas for trade offs are mentioned i will not repeat. Another idea (even though not rly doable and probably too harsh) would be to lock out Mirage from traitlines like Chaos or Inspiration. That would be an insane restriction in build diversity but at least would not kill the whole playstyle and makes sense in the way that Mirage is supposed to have high active sustain from dodges and counterpressure from each dodge and for that it doesn't need more passive sustain (from Chaos) or less reactive/ more spammy sustain (from Inspiration) in addition because the synergy is too strong. The Mirage trade off would be that player cannot use Chaos or Inspiration in addition to Mirage traitline. I would never suggest such thing because it is crazy and better would be to just rework those 2 lines into something more active (Chaos) or less spammy/ more reactive (Inspiration). But even this crazy trade off i would prefer over the current plan. That shows how even more crazy that one dodge trade off idea is.

    All in all i am confused by how differently different specs are treated by trade offs. Just as i am confused about the difference between a normal nerf and a trade off change directed at downgrading elite mechanics to core lvl. If someone can help me to understand i will be grateful.

    For SPB trade off is mitigated by GS having the same damage across all levels and dagger being designed for the one bar bursts. If you run axe you can see the difference in power on evicerate same with the other bursts. So it's not that the class doesn't have a trade off it's just circumventing it.

  • mrauls.6519mrauls.6519 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2020

    Deflecting shot doing 0 damage is going to suck so much. I get what ANet is trying to do, but if you're going to make it do 0 damage, up the damage of true shot or AA or something. Its damage is ESSENTIAL to DH

  • Losing control over your character without the possibility of doing anything is the worst possible experience you can give.

    nope, its being killed out of stealth

  • Alin.2468Alin.2468 Member ✭✭✭

    The next balance patch will fail. They simply forgot to bring back teamwork and friendship. Players will still play solo, casting spells without even knowing what a combo is.

    One man trash another man treasure.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Odik.4587 said:

    Got some questions...
    Traits that boost power/precision/ferocity ... why they are not getting nerfed as well?
    Thief & Bundle.
    What will happen to CONSUME PLASMA? It will be OP-overloaded as hell? Because couldnt find any changes on it. Even being interrupted he doesnt lose it and unpunished, how did it pass?
    Binding shadow - can you remove the immobilize, so this skill wouldnt need a breakstun and cleanse(at the same time) to get out of it ?
    Mesmer
    In addition to previous post.
    Can mantra face requirement be reviewed ? Since they are seeing major nerfs, pretty clunky as they are now
    Elementalist.
    Lightning rod turns every CC into DMG spike with a weakness on it, no icd. I'd like to remind that power block (on mesmer) has 3s icd, cant crit and procs on interrupt . We had a trait with exact the same functionality - "lost time" on chrono before and it did half of LROD damage, it was deleted entirely. Disable the crits at least, may be?
    Engineer.
    AED (engi heal) escaped the nerfs?
    Warrior.
    Also want to remind that "Attacker's Insight" is an overloaded trait, aside REFRESHING warrior's burst skill it does give a stat boost (which is super easy to get and keep) 225 power and 225 ferocity (450 overall), thats waaaaay too much.
    Always felt that Greatsword burst is weird. It has no difference between burst tier 1-2-3 (the onle change is a boon duration, really?). Its always the same and always strong (and somehow will be barely nerfed, like really). Higher tier level -more power/damage/stronger effect but its just the same.
    This favors spellbreaker the most and let it use its full strength as tier 1 burst. That supposed to be a spellbreaker trade off? To not hit you with lvl3 bursts at cost of 1 adrenaline bar but in reality its lvl3 burst but count as lvl1, thats the only difference. Because of that we have to evade in that manner F1 -> F2 (if hits refreshing F1 again) ->F1->swap-> F1 again and every burst is worth a dodge because magebane tether and GS F1 hit like a truck.
    (Not sure if fixed) Would be nice if sword burst wouldnt immobilize people before it even hit them.

    "Traits that boost power/precision/ferocity ... why they are not getting nerfed as well?"
    Power/Ferocity/Precision.
    are % damage modifiers that increase damage depending on already owned p/f/p.
    and thus nerfing them is pointless unless they are already too high. example.
    skill with 100 damage boosted by power that increases damage by 20% will hit for 120. meaning it provided extra 20 damage.
    same skill after nerf deals 50 damage, and thus the same power buff off 20% increases its damage to 60, meaning it provided 10 damage instead.
    lowering bonus stats is not needed ( their value will go SLIGHTLY up since people generate less might? -> unsure didnt read all patch changes )

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2020

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Looking at history the origin core Engi never had an f5. F5 for core Engi got added around 2017. What does that mean?

    Look again, it came in the core spec patch in mid 2015, it was vanilla GW2

    Ok means it was a bit sooner but that doesn't change my point that they pre buffed core Engi before introducing elites (makes even more sense now because its more obvious that they didt it with the coming elites in mind) to have another f5 and then called it a trade off to place elite specific mechanic skills into that f5. They could have done the same to Mesmer which has the same amount of f-skills as Engi and is for that a good example. Imagine how big the difference in Mesmer trade off would be for Mesmer players if replacing a core f5 with Chrono or Mirage specific f5 shatter would have been all they would have done as trade off. I think no Mesmer main would complain about those trade offs and both specs would still see play.

    Engi is by the way not the only core spec that got pre buffed and for that power creeped by core already (it is just the most obvious because they said they want to give trade off for more skils added but in Engi chase they neutralized the skill deletion by pre buffing core with adding an f5 to core), they did it with all core traitlines during reworking the traitline system pre HoT and making a lot of vanilla traits baseline or turning two traits into one now giving both rewards and added new traits on these empty spaces. They deleted stat boni correlated to the traitline nature (you take a offensive traitline you got offensive stat boni, you didn't take a defensive traitline you didn't get defensive stat boni). They did it with all classes. They power creeped the core game before any elite spec even went live.

    And as i said somewhere else: one big trade off from elite specs Anet seems to forget in general is, that elite specs give up one core traitline and for that a traitline that got insanely power creepd often more power creeped than the elite traitline by itself. If you want dmg on Engi the core traitlines are the stronger pick, if you want sustain the defensive core traitlines are the stronger pick over Scrapper for example. Elites are more about adding different mechanics than buffing a spec in terms of dmg or sustain (i mean they also have dmg and sustain traits but they are less power creeped, what is kind of funny).

    Why elite specs are overall more impactful is often not because the elite line itself is op, often it is more the synergy the new gameplay mechanics in elites have with those power creeped core traitlines. Imo it would be easier to balance elite specs if they would consume 2 traitlines so you only can pick one core line in addition or even all 3 lines would be replaced by elite specific lines. But that is not how it is designed, means we need another way to give trade offs for some more skills some elites have or strong mechanics some elites have but even more we need to compensate the too strong synergy between elite mechanics and power creeped core traitlines (not even Mirage what clearly got the strongest mechanics over core is op when played without Chaosline for example, only on Condi maybe).

    And because most core traitlines are more about dmg and sustain and not about adding different playstyles often simple stat downgrades are enough to compensate. There is no reason why Druid only gets a stat penalty during Soulbeast gets skills and combos removed player started to like and even reduce the skill floor and ceiling Soulbeast added over core Ranger. Yes Soulbeast now lost skill floor/ceiling, it is mechanically easier to play without pet swap. The only thing why it is still acceptable as a trade off is that it at least indeed also added some skill need in return by rly nerfing what makes Soulbeast op (having too much too impactful skills/cds). But they could have done that by simple stat penalty and some higher cds on pets skills and f skills too without taking away active gameplay options from players.

    And don't get me wrong my point is NOT to ask that all elite get Mesmer elite treatment, i am not here to say Druid or Scrapper needs a harder trade off, i am here to say that all elites should be more treated like Druid or Scrapper. As long as it is possible to compensate what elites make so strong that way. And 99% of elites could have been balanced just by stat penalty to compensate the more in skills/ cds they have over core. Even for Chrono because Chrono is mostly about having more cds from resetting them faster. Instead they changed the gameplay style into a clunky one and took away necessary combo potential from shatters what a shatterbased Mesmer playstyle needs by core design to even work. Not to mention that Mesmer got not only f5 completely removed they got a triple downgrade, that is unfairly harder and unnecessary harder than other elite specs were treated by trade off. Daredevil could have got a range decrease to 900 instead 600 to not make the gameplay that clunky and instead compensating this even by unblockable they could have got a -100 toughness treatment or soemthing like that (they have more active defense from more dodges and it gets compensated by less passive sustain, a change that higher skill ceiling by switching passive sustain out for active and reactive sustain, while leaving the overall sustain the same compared to core)

    The only exception is Mirage. Mirage mechanics are that strong, that it is the only class i can agree to give some penatly to the mechanic itself. A trade off like suggested with only 2 clones maxixmum and a stat penalty on condi dmg and condi duration for example would be a way to balance Mirage without killing gameplay options and without killing skill ceiling. The one dodge trade off doesn't change how passive CondiMirage is played, it just solve the problem by deleting the spec from competitive modes or make it be played in an even lamer form like chaos-inspi- bunker kitten, ppl will hate even more.

    @Tycura.1982 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Second part (anyone interested in reading another wall of text, the first part of my post talking about the PvP patch in general can just scroll up)

    1. Trade offs:
      I rly try to understand the consept and tried to do some research about that. I get the basic consept that says, that some class elites got stuff on top of what corebuilds have (named were Druid, Chrono as exaple) during other classes just got their core mechanics changed by replacing already existing skills with new ones (example Necro) without really adding other skills/cds on top of that. And this more on cds/skills now needs to be compensated by a trade off to make elites on par with core specs. I guess Deadeye, Ele specs, DH aside from Necro specs don't need trade offs in that regard.

    Lets forget for the moment that you can powercreep and overbuff elite specs by just making the replacing skills way better than the core ones as happend to Reaper skills for example for some extent (way faster paced shroud gameplay with way more dmg what barely got compensated by faster shroud lose when i see how long and often i still can be in shroud with my Reaper). Lets also forget for the moment that deleting shroud on Scourge got instantly compensated by barrier mechanic and lets pretend Necro elites don't need any more trade offs because they didn't rly get any more cds/skills in additon compared to core.
    That also counts vice versa btw, core specs with less skills available can be stronger than elites with more skills/cds because all in all the elite skills are too much weaker than the core skills (looking at defensive traitlines a lot of them are stronger than the elite lines, by having lower skill ceiling and less active mechanics often because defensive traitlines still have too less opportunity costs in dmg and are for that powercreeped). But lets forget about that too atm.

    Lets also forget for now that classes which got their trade offs later where already more "normally" nerfed in their elite and core mechanics to deal with meta builds compared to elites which already got their trade off. Means some elites get a trade off on top off several nerfs happend already and would have been unnecessary when they would just have gotten their trade off sooner. On the other side elite specific boons for example like alacrity were given to other classes but chrono is the only class gets a trade off for it because it was implemented as Chrono elite feature.

    Then i tried to compare trade offs from different specs and here is were my problem really starts. I am not sure my friend google gave me all needed informations about specs im not that deep into, means everyone (in particular main class player with more knowledge) can correct me and give me the informations i maybe miss.

    For example Druid (i never played Druid that much, same as Scrapper, i found both specs kind of boring, but i played both a little bit during Hot and when i just lately jumped on Druid while missing that Druid already got a trade off, i couldn't feel any trade off, Druid felt exactly the same for me, ofc aside from other "normal" nerfs and aside from meta changes make it less viable compared to other Ranger specs and even more compared to other support specs atm), so i googled for Druid trade off:
    All i could find as trade off for Druid was a a pet dmg nerf for Druid Pets only. Is that correct or do i miss something here? I mean that would be a joke of a trade off for a class that can just switch to core pets or PoF pets and when i look at current Smokescale being still a very strong pick. HoT pets after Hot release also were broken in dmg they needed nerfs in dmg to be balanced. That is just a normal nerf and not a trade off. Otherwise why is the Soulbeast trade off not just nerfing broken Gazelle dmg (and other PoF pets not used anyway) and we are done? When i then compare the new Soulbeast trade off to the Druid one then Soulbeast is trade offed way way harder than Druid. Do i get that right? When yes, why is Soulbeast treatened that much harder and in a way will affect the playstyle more than on Druid who just has less dmg on pets but no mechanical changes making fun and from players loved combos impossible?

    Example Holo/ Scrapper: Holo/Scrapper trade off supposed to be the lose of f5 toolbelt which was linked to the elite skill on button 0 (Scrapper got vitality reduced in addition). Looking at history the origin core Engi never had an f5. F5 for core Engi got added around 2017. What does that mean? I buff Core with an already unnecessary powercreeped cd additon and replace the f5 by elite spec mechanic skills and call that a trade off? That would be the same as buffing core Mesmer by giving it a core f5 shatter first and then trade off Chronomancer by replacing the core f5 with Continuum Split and Mirage trade off with giving a Mirage specific f5 shatter. You neutralize the elite trade off by pre buffing core to elite lvl, thats a big rofl (again when i miss something here feel free to correct me).

    Example Spellbreaker: Trade off is the lose of adrenalin bars, yet i fail to see how that did lower the impact from burst skills in any remarkable way compared to core. They still both hit like a truck. Overall looks more like a buff than a trade off because the Spellbreaker now needs to build up less adrenalin and has access to the "maximum" burst skills more often for barely any downside on the impact of burst skills (the new lower maximum is still as strong as the old 3bars max). The bit of downside gets compensated by the added pros in the trade off itself (needs less adrenalin). What do i miss?

    Example Daredevil: Trade off is the shorter range for the stealskill Swipe. But the shorter range got instantly compensated by adding a pretty strong unblockable feature. It was just switching a downgrade with an upgrade, that is not a trade off but still Anet managed to make the spec more clunky to play from a too short range but then buffing it in an unhealthy way with an unblockable feature should not exist on instant, no los, range skills. Double dislike!

    Then there are classes i have a hard time to see a difference between "normal" nerfs and a trade off directed to downgrade elite mechanics to bring them more in line to core. For example Rev and FB. What is their trade off? I heard something about Rev loses ability to stunbreak on legend swap, yet can't find anything about this in the global or pvp changes. Also would that be a normal nerf? Why does that count as trade off? It is not even directed at the elite traitline. What is about the planned change to Holo f5? I am a little bit confused how that is supposed to work, like every toolbelt skill gets more cooldown or only the ones already on cd when going into Holo mode? According to the context of the patch it is a nerf no matter how it will work in the end. But is it meant as additional trade off (what would make sense because of what i wrote before) or is it just a normal nerf in context of the big patch nerfing everything?

    Then i look at a class like Mesmer. Both specs will have such clearly downgrades you cannot even mistake them as normal nerfs. They are clearly trade offs. Chrono got triple downgrade by losing f4 statter, losing Illusionary Persona and reworked f1-3 shatters with less dmg when no slow is applied (if i understand that right). 2 of these changes completely change the playstyle remarkable from how it was originally meant to be and make the spec clunky with not respecting how the class needs to work (instant shatters for combos). Chrono is worse than Core now. Not even the planned Soulbeast trade off comes even near in how much the origin Soulbeast mechanic and playstyle will change and get negative affected by its trade off. Soulbeast trade off is a nerf not rly affecting the playstyle in a critical way, it has less cds/skills available now and some combos you needed pet swap for can't be done anymore (i would have prefered simple dmg reduction and lower cc durations on longer cooldowns as trade off because without pet swap Soulbeast gets a bit easier to play mechanically but ofc less lame to play from not being overloaded with impactful cds anymore). Soulbeast trade off is not my first choice but acceptable. It is rly not easy to change Mesmer mechanics without killing them but what happend to Chrono and now Mirage is insane.

    As i already said in an other thread about how to balance elite specs like FB which got more cds without changing or killing the way they are supposed to be played and supposed to work, it is simple: When more cds/skills get added to a skill sample, it is needed to balance the more skills/cds by making each single skill less impactful or less often usable, so that the whole sample overall is not remarkable more impactful than a skill sample with less cds/skills. That can be done by either giving higher cds on single skills, or by making each single skill/cd less impactful in their rewards by lower dmg or like shorter cc duration and less skills with cumulated rewards (for example why does Mantra of Truth apply 3 condis, why not just 1 or 2 aside from dmg. Why is the condi duration so long? MoT would be even power creeped on a Guard spec that has only 3 f3 skills like core Guard and not +12 cds from tomes).

    The cd from Condinuum Split got increased more than one time before the trade off idea even started if i remember right. On top of that they got triple downgrade. Ofc higher cds on sinlge skills is not rly effectual when the mechanic of chrono is to just reset them with CS but why there was not just a trade off like -200 power and -200 vita in addition to the already increased CS cd? It would compensate for the more cds Chrono has without killing the underlying mechanics and playstyle and make it clunky and unplayable in competitive modes.

    Mirage now is supposed to have only one dodge. It got said several times already why this is a bad plan, it downgrades skill ceiling in several aspects of the spec, it is contrary to the spec mechanic and it will make Mirage clunky if not completely unplayable in competitive modes, without even fixing the passive playstyle on Condimirage . Looking at Mesmer player and Mesmer hater this is a lose-lose situation just that Mesmer hater don't even have enough clue of the spec to even see that. Because in case Mirage will be playable in any form than you can be sure it will be even less skillful and even more lame then what we have today, probably some chaos-inspi-bunker kitten no one will like.

    Other ideas for trade offs are mentioned i will not repeat. Another idea (even though not rly doable and probably too harsh) would be to lock out Mirage from traitlines like Chaos or Inspiration. That would be an insane restriction in build diversity but at least would not kill the whole playstyle and makes sense in the way that Mirage is supposed to have high active sustain from dodges and counterpressure from each dodge and for that it doesn't need more passive sustain (from Chaos) or less reactive/ more spammy sustain (from Inspiration) in addition because the synergy is too strong. The Mirage trade off would be that player cannot use Chaos or Inspiration in addition to Mirage traitline. I would never suggest such thing because it is crazy and better would be to just rework those 2 lines into something more active (Chaos) or less spammy/ more reactive (Inspiration). But even this crazy trade off i would prefer over the current plan. That shows how even more crazy that one dodge trade off idea is.

    All in all i am confused by how differently different specs are treated by trade offs. Just as i am confused about the difference between a normal nerf and a trade off change directed at downgrading elite mechanics to core lvl. If someone can help me to understand i will be grateful.

    For SPB trade off is mitigated by GS having the same damage across all levels and dagger being designed for the one bar bursts. If you run axe you can see the difference in power on evicerate same with the other bursts. So it's not that the class doesn't have a trade off it's just circumventing it.

    Yes that was my point, the most common playstyle for Spb didn't even get changed or less impactful (it is played with gs and dagger). You have some downgrades but a lot of it gets compensated by also having less adrenalin to build up. Axe evis maybe makes less dmg (i didn't know i only played the meta version) but you also can use it more often because less bars are filled faster. I don't mind the Spb trade off, it is a trade off that is more or less a dmg penalty without deleting gameplay options from the player. I don't want Spb to get a trade off that deletes the more gameplay options the Spb spec adds compared to core. My problem is, that other elite specs are hit so much harder by trade offs than others (Daredevil got clunky as hell, Soulbeast loses some nice combos and skill ceiling with losing pet swap, Mesmer specs will be totally unplayable and clunky as hell too and will lose skill ceiling and that without even solving the problem with the too passive playstyle on Condimirage).

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • The Ace.9105The Ace.9105 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2020

    Please take a look at thief stolen skills like essence sap. It still inflicts 4s of slow despite the tooltip has says 1s since the release of hot and the damage on essence sap is over 4k per hit. Stolen abilities shouldn't be stronger than thief stealth back stab after the nerf.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2020

    @bravan.3876 said:

    Ok means it was a bit sooner but that doesn't change my point that they pre buffed core Engi

    Actually the core spec patch was overall a sizable power reduction for Engi, not a pre-buff just from an F5 skill added.

    Here's why:

    A bunch of strong traits were spread out to different traitlines forcing decisions that left you weaker. They further hurt cele Engineer, removing it from all play by lowering sustain through nerfing functionality of backpack regenerator. Engineers went from being arguably the best duelist overnight to being below average - subpar in competitive. Luckily they were still decent as pure teamfight role.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2020

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    Ok means it was a bit sooner but that doesn't change my point that they pre buffed core Engi

    Actually the core spec patch was overall a sizable power reduction for Engi, not a pre-buff just from an F5 skill added.

    Here's why:

    A bunch of strong traits were spread out to different traitlines forcing decisions that left you weaker. They further hurt cele Engineer, by lowering sustain through nerfing functionality of backpack regenerator. Engineers went from being arguably the best duelist overnight to being below average - subpar in competitive. Luckily they were still decent as pure teamfight role.

    I am rly no expert about balance history for Engi in particular (Holo is the only Engi spec i played), i only know that they made a lot of traits baseline over all classes pre HoT and that they deleted the statboni on traitlines and put them into amulets. Both already powercreeped the core lines. Then i have a blackscreen and then i look at defensive traitlines Engi has today and what traitlines were mandatory to pick during Hot and PoF. Alchemy comes in mind immediately, being strong as hell, and mandatory to pick no matter what spec. Some other changes you mentioned and i missed did maybe compensated a bit more than on other classes the over all direction of being a more power creeped core game but by only looking at what happend and how strong defensive trailines on Engi currently are (in particular Alchemy) you can't say that only replaceing the f5 what got added to core right before HoT release is a fair trade off compared to what other classes like Daredevil, Soulbeast and Mesmer specs got. As said i don't think Scrapper needs more trade off than vita penalty maybe some dmg reduction on hammer skills or whatever (outside of the coming big patch that will nerf everything ofc). I think the way Scrapper or Druid got trade offed should be the leading example how to trade off specs. A trade off that doesn't make gameplay clunky and doesn't delete active gameplay options player started to like and which add skill ceiling to elite specs (having higher skill ceiling is a trade off too btw, something that is harder to pull of can be a little bit stronger than an easy gameplay mechanic).
    Only Mirage needs a trade off that is a direct penalty to the mechanic itself and a clone maximum of 2 (in addition to condi dmg stat penalty or even better just nerf condi ambush clone skills and normal autoattacks from condi clones) is a better way then only one dodge. Even keeping Mirage out of traitlines like Chaos or Inspiration would be a better trade off than the current plan.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:
    Dmg reduction is fine and corruption too(if and only if we see a real decline of boon spam, otherwise you'll see even more boonspam without anything keeping it in check).
    Now here are the things I really do not understand:

    • Executioners Scythe: why remove the dmg component when it's clear it was meanth as killer hit since even its dmg scales with the percentage of enemy's health. In my opinion you should remove the cc and keep the dmg, not do the opposite.
    • Spectral walk and armor didn't deserve a nerf since you already removed a key component for core necro survivability (foot in the grave). You now force any necromancer to basically run with always 2 or 3 breakstuns, not to talk about the fact that the breakstun on entering shroud, actually grants the ability to instantly react to a cc lock down.
    • Doom: the usefull part of this ability was the fact it was instant, most of all a lot of people complain about the fear duration not the fact it was instant. Infact doom being instant is crucial to actually try to stop a burst while in core shroud.
    • Infusing Terror: really you nerf stability on reaper shroud which needs it to stay in melee without being cc locked? Reduce it to 2 stacks instead of 3 but keep the duration. Because stab on reaper shroud is crucial, to be able to cast something that it is not autoattack since every skill has a 1.25s cast time or more. You expect a melee shroud mode with long cast times to actually be usefull without the ability to cast its slow abilities without any protection vs CCs?

    You can't nerf dmg and corruption on necro and at the same time increase its weakness to CC too, in my opinion is too much. You say you want less stab on necro and that's fine but even going hammer on breakstuns? Like 15s increase on trail of anguish? Is any necro spec supposed to have 1 breakstun each 40s, when every other class in game can spam all the cc they have, which btw are more than just 1 or 2, and keep doing damage with every other skill in the kit while they cc lock a necro?

    With the damage lower across the board, though, and the cc doing low damage, you don't need to worry about breaking stun as much, so you may not need to continue to run stunbreaks. Just wait it out and see.

    What you are suggesting is the most uninterractive way of playing one could ever imagine. Losing control over your character without the possibility of doing anything is the worst possible experience you can give.

    I don't find having 15 million stab, on top of 2 health bars, and a high natural health pool, making you tanky by default "interactive" and "fun". Especially after these damage nerfs. You want the best of all worlds. Too bad.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2020

    @bravan.3876 said:
    You can't say that only replaceing the f5 what got added to core right before HoT release is a fair trade off compared to what other classes like Daredevil, Soulbeast and Mesmer specs got.

    Before I explained about the actual history of engineer balance I should just note that it doesn't matter "when" F5 was added. When a class is completely rebalanced around having a strong F5 skill like it was, losing Toss Elixir X for example is a valid trade.

    A few of the Holo tradeoffs are more subtle and you aren't willing or able to see:

    1.) Overheating. Holo is balanced around never overheating. If you don't overheat, good, you're average, if you make a mistake, get overconfident or aren't aware, you delete your presence from a fight. It's a straight additional hoop to jump, you aren't more likely to win than others if you avoid overheating.

    2.) Kit lockout. Equipping Holosmith and using Forge means you absolutely cannot smoothly use kits and weapons on demand, an extremely powerful privilege of core Engineer the reason why core individual abilities aren't often uber hard hitting.

    As said i don't think Scrapper needs more trade off than vita penalty maybe some dmg reduction on hammer skills or whatever (outside of the coming big patch that will nerf everything ofc).

    Doesn't need more trade offs but.. should have hammer damage nerfed further outside the big coming patch that's nerfing hammer more than most weapons are getting nerfed. Maybe wait to see instead would be a better strat?

    I think the way Scrapper or Druid got trade offed should be the leading example how to trade off specs.

    I don't agree, it's boring to slap a vitality or pet stat penalty on a spec that just received a functionality change or straight functionality buff.

    Holo losing unlimited kit access and gaining chance to overheat, Scourge losing second HP bar, Spellbreaker losing 3stage burst skills. These are the well thought out trade offs imo.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Bazooka.3590Bazooka.3590 Member ✭✭✭

    It's a nice thing to working on game balance finally. Better late than never.
    My problem is with this patch it will kill the continuity of the game mechanic between pvp wvw and pve. Pve will be a whole other game with total different traits and skills. It can be misleading and it breaks the consistency even more between the game mods.
    In spite of that I'm curious of this update but don't forget to read the community posts (what you always do anyway:P) Maybe a beta server and some beta weekends would be good idea before the official release.
    ps
    Please keep in mind that the missing damage will make teleporting and resurrecting skills/traits much stronger too.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Odik.4587 said:

    Should I be rolling on the floor after your comments ?

    ¯_(ツ)_/¯ Thats your choice

    Mesmer = boon boost ( generally mesmers are known for having pretty wide boon table so i can see why they get something like plasma from them)

    Since the core times they had plasma and mesmer wasnt boonmonster (spoiler for uninformed - it was chrono), if there is boonmonstermachine its guardian since CORE days.

    Ive seen the boons mesmers can have when using core and mirage so yeah.... no its not just chrono their boon tables are pretty wide. Almost no one plays chrono

    None of the stolen bundles shuts down the class completely and make it insane hard to fight back or even close to impossible. You said the most noticable effects on the budles they steal but this "crazy good" throw gank/rangers tree/ice shard stab.

    Fear is a cc can be used twice against necro a class with limited stability ontop of other thief skills its easy to shut down a necro when played properly
    The throwable skill from rev can easily be used to shut a rev down as it deals high damage and applies one of the strongest soft conditions in the game.
    Chill spike massively cripples ele and their ability to element swap (even it takes a bit more skill to land)
    Riddle me this??? Why should mesmers be any different???
    Why are you complaining about the one profession that counters mesmer harder than the others when almost every profession has something if not multiple things that counter them.

    I dont want to deal with such biased and hateful person against the mes and be like "yes, its OP but its good that mesmer automatically deleted when thief is there*.

    But you are being biased and hateful against thief for literally 1 skill that they can only obtain from mesmer.

    i can almost always evade it if i can see the smoke effect

    ¯_(ツ)_/¯

    I guess thats your own personal problem then. IF i can dodge it on necro you can dodge it on mirage or mesmer ¯_(ツ)_/¯ You have considerably more evasive options than I would so i mean either you are not as good as you think you are or you are just as baised if not more baised. Though your attempts to troll are amusing :-1:

    Its not identical though. even in past applications of the skill.
    Lets also not forget that the chrono version could be triggered without disables by simply landing critical hits

    You are not competent to give any answers regards question I'v asked, you simply dont even know the traits :joy::joy::joy:

    ¯_(ツ)_/¯ Are you sure about that?

    Dont expect a response from me.

    ¯_(ツ)_/¯ Thats fine
    I expect you to continue to get erased by thieves cause you dont want the game to be fair.
    Good day Odik! :D

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2020

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    You can't say that only replaceing the f5 what got added to core right before HoT release is a fair trade off compared to what other classes like Daredevil, Soulbeast and Mesmer specs got.

    Before I explained about the actual history of engineer balance I should just note that it doesn't matter "when" F5 was added. When a class is completely rebalanced around having a strong F5 skill like it was, losing Toss Elixir X for example is a valid trade.

    A few of the Holo tradeoffs are more subtle and you aren't willing or able to see:

    1.) Overheating. Holo is balanced around never overheating. If you don't overheat, good, you're average, if you make a mistake, get overconfident or aren't aware, you delete your presence from a fight. It's a straight additional hoop to jump, you aren't more likely to win than others if you avoid overheating.

    2.) Kit lockout. Equipping Holosmith and using Forge means you absolutely cannot smoothly use kits and weapons on demand, an extremely powerful privilege of core Engineer the reason why core individual abilities aren't often uber hard hitting.

    As said i don't think Scrapper needs more trade off than vita penalty maybe some dmg reduction on hammer skills or whatever (outside of the coming big patch that will nerf everything ofc).

    Doesn't need more trade offs but.. should have hammer damage nerfed further outside the big coming patch that's nerfing hammer more than most weapons are getting nerfed. Maybe wait to see instead would be a better strat?

    I think the way Scrapper or Druid got trade offed should be the leading example how to trade off specs.

    I don't agree, it's boring to slap a vitality or pet stat penalty on a spec that just received a functionality change or straight functionality buff.

    Holo losing unlimited kit access and gaining chance to overheat, Scourge losing second HP bar, Spellbreaker losing 3stage burst skills. These are the well thought out trade offs imo.

    Core Engi wasn't balanced around having a strong f5, it didn't have f5 the whole core duration of the game. It clearly got added with having elite specs in mind right before HoT release. The nerfs, which happend during traitline rework you mentioned (and i don't know about ) compensated for a little bit the overall tendency in power creeping the core game but didn't neutralized it, simple fact when looking at how strong Engis core traitlines are currently and were all time after traitline rework. They sure didn't compensate for adding an f5 to core for elite spec purposes.

    1. Yes i am aware of the inherent trade off Holo has, i am aware that this trade off is well made because it adds skill ceiling by the need to care for the overhead penalty (what maybe is a bit too weak imo or coming too late, you can camp very long in Holomode without penalty dropping in). That is the reason i never would have said Holo needs an additional trade off at all. Yet losing f5 was called the Holo trade off, a trade off that wasn't a trade off (because core never had an f5 before HoT relsease, core got just buffed in that regard) but luckily this trade off is not needed anyway. That is exactly my point.

    And when you then look at other classes: Soulbeast for example also had inherent trade off since PoF release. When they merge with Pet they lose access to their pet as compensation. They didn't get merge f skills on top of it, merge skills replace the pet f skills and all passive pets skills dissapear too, together with the pet itself, during merge.
    Mirage has inherent trade offs, even 3. You have a harder dodge management by more opportunity costs about for what to use dodges while not having more dodges than other classes and you have the weakest dodge trait in the game (IH) needs additional effort from the player to work or consumes an additional trait to work and you have a dodge can be slowed down in distance by cripple and chill.

    1. You cannot use a kit during in Holo mode true (but you never could use 2 kits at the same time on core Engi either and Holomode is more or less just another kit changing your no. 1-5 skills like every other kit does. Only the button for the switch to the kit is not an utility but an f5 got added right before HoT release for exactly that purpose, so Holomode doesn't consume an utility slot, what is straight up a buff). The buff got trade offed by the overhead mechanic. Yes, ergo: No need to claim Holo got a second trade off by removing f5, the f5 change never was a trade off and Holo is also not in need to have this second trade off. All balance can be done by normal nerfs by increasing head penalty or lower dmg or higher cds on Holoskills WHEN NEEDED.

    My whole point is, that i don't understand the trade off mechanic itself because most specs, in particular the ones having inherent trade offs in the origin spec design right from start of PoF getting a second or even triple trade off on top of the inherent trade off they always had and that is not fair and that is not what make them more skilled, in particular when the trade off then even delete active gameplay options and delete skill ceiling and deletes the inherent and skilled trade off the spec had already.
    In that double and triple trade off scenario case at least only do stat penalty because Soulbeast clearly will not become more interersting or harder to play. It got mechanically easier to play. Same with Mirage and Chrono. Daredevil got unnecessary clunky by the too short range Steal but on the other side more broken by the unblockable on Steal. All trade offs that don't make sense. A range decrease to 900 and a little toughness penalty would make more sense. Cut Mirage dodge to one deletes the skillful and inherent trade off Mirage has by preventing any dodge management by making offensive dodges completely impossible. There are a lot of trade off possibilities make more sense for Mirage (and yes Mirage needed an additional trade off or at least a nerf to condi clones because too high clone dmg on condi builds is what makes Condimirage op and passive).

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2020

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    Doesn't need more trade offs but.. should have hammer damage nerfed further outside the big coming patch that's nerfing hammer more than most weapons are getting nerfed. Maybe wait to see instead would be a better strat?

    Ofc i would not nerf hammer skills further outside of the big patch, what i meant was: when Anet wants to add trade offs to elite specs so badly then do it in a way of nerfing skill ensembles with more skills/ cds by lowering down their impact instead just deleting skills from the game. Very simplified said: Don't delete Hammer skills from the game to trade off Scrapper, just balance their dmg or other rewards they give on a balanced lvl if needed.

    Pls stop being so tunnelvisioned on being afraid i want overnerf your main class, you rly miss all my points by that. I never talked about Hammer needs nerfs. I t was just an example on how to balance Scrapper when NEEDED without adding not needed additional trade offs.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    You can't say that only replaceing the f5 what got added to core right before HoT release is a fair trade off compared to what other classes like Daredevil, Soulbeast and Mesmer specs got.

    Before I explained about the actual history of engineer balance I should just note that it doesn't matter "when" F5 was added. When a class is completely rebalanced around having a strong F5 skill like it was, losing Toss Elixir X for example is a valid trade.

    A few of the Holo tradeoffs are more subtle and you aren't willing or able to see:

    1.) Overheating. Holo is balanced around never overheating. If you don't overheat, good, you're average, if you make a mistake, get overconfident or aren't aware, you delete your presence from a fight. It's a straight additional hoop to jump, you aren't more likely to win than others if you avoid overheating.

    2.) Kit lockout. Equipping Holosmith and using Forge means you absolutely cannot smoothly use kits and weapons on demand, an extremely powerful privilege of core Engineer the reason why core individual abilities aren't often uber hard hitting.

    As said i don't think Scrapper needs more trade off than vita penalty maybe some dmg reduction on hammer skills or whatever (outside of the coming big patch that will nerf everything ofc).

    Doesn't need more trade offs but.. should have hammer damage nerfed further outside the big coming patch that's nerfing hammer more than most weapons are getting nerfed. Maybe wait to see instead would be a better strat?

    I think the way Scrapper or Druid got trade offed should be the leading example how to trade off specs.

    I don't agree, it's boring to slap a vitality or pet stat penalty on a spec that just received a functionality change or straight functionality buff.

    Holo losing unlimited kit access and gaining chance to overheat, Scourge losing second HP bar, Spellbreaker losing 3stage burst skills. These are the well thought out trade offs imo.

    Core Engi wasn't balanced around having a strong f5, it didn't have f5 the whole core duration of the game.

    Chaith said rebalanced.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    You can't say that only replaceing the f5 what got added to core right before HoT release is a fair trade off compared to what other classes like Daredevil, Soulbeast and Mesmer specs got.

    Before I explained about the actual history of engineer balance I should just note that it doesn't matter "when" F5 was added. When a class is completely rebalanced around having a strong F5 skill like it was, losing Toss Elixir X for example is a valid trade.

    A few of the Holo tradeoffs are more subtle and you aren't willing or able to see:

    1.) Overheating. Holo is balanced around never overheating. If you don't overheat, good, you're average, if you make a mistake, get overconfident or aren't aware, you delete your presence from a fight. It's a straight additional hoop to jump, you aren't more likely to win than others if you avoid overheating.

    2.) Kit lockout. Equipping Holosmith and using Forge means you absolutely cannot smoothly use kits and weapons on demand, an extremely powerful privilege of core Engineer the reason why core individual abilities aren't often uber hard hitting.

    As said i don't think Scrapper needs more trade off than vita penalty maybe some dmg reduction on hammer skills or whatever (outside of the coming big patch that will nerf everything ofc).

    Doesn't need more trade offs but.. should have hammer damage nerfed further outside the big coming patch that's nerfing hammer more than most weapons are getting nerfed. Maybe wait to see instead would be a better strat?

    I think the way Scrapper or Druid got trade offed should be the leading example how to trade off specs.

    I don't agree, it's boring to slap a vitality or pet stat penalty on a spec that just received a functionality change or straight functionality buff.

    Holo losing unlimited kit access and gaining chance to overheat, Scourge losing second HP bar, Spellbreaker losing 3stage burst skills. These are the well thought out trade offs imo.

    Core Engi wasn't balanced around having a strong f5, it didn't have f5 the whole core duration of the game.

    Chaith said rebalanced.

    Yes and as i described the rebalance that happend was overall still a power creep also for Engi. The nerfs that happend didn't even compensate for the power creep Anet added to all classes in the traitlines not to say it didn't compensate for adding an f5 to core. But you both can calm down, i am not here to nerf Holo more than needed inside of the big patch. My point is not about Holo being not trade offed enough, my point is that other specs got trade offed way to hard, unfair and unnecessary harder than other specs and also in ways that lowered their skill ceiling and not increased it. What got mentioned by other ppl in the forum already.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2020

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:
    Dmg reduction is fine and corruption too(if and only if we see a real decline of boon spam, otherwise you'll see even more boonspam without anything keeping it in check).
    Now here are the things I really do not understand:

    • Executioners Scythe: why remove the dmg component when it's clear it was meanth as killer hit since even its dmg scales with the percentage of enemy's health. In my opinion you should remove the cc and keep the dmg, not do the opposite.
    • Spectral walk and armor didn't deserve a nerf since you already removed a key component for core necro survivability (foot in the grave). You now force any necromancer to basically run with always 2 or 3 breakstuns, not to talk about the fact that the breakstun on entering shroud, actually grants the ability to instantly react to a cc lock down.
    • Doom: the usefull part of this ability was the fact it was instant, most of all a lot of people complain about the fear duration not the fact it was instant. Infact doom being instant is crucial to actually try to stop a burst while in core shroud.
    • Infusing Terror: really you nerf stability on reaper shroud which needs it to stay in melee without being cc locked? Reduce it to 2 stacks instead of 3 but keep the duration. Because stab on reaper shroud is crucial, to be able to cast something that it is not autoattack since every skill has a 1.25s cast time or more. You expect a melee shroud mode with long cast times to actually be usefull without the ability to cast its slow abilities without any protection vs CCs?

    You can't nerf dmg and corruption on necro and at the same time increase its weakness to CC too, in my opinion is too much. You say you want less stab on necro and that's fine but even going hammer on breakstuns? Like 15s increase on trail of anguish? Is any necro spec supposed to have 1 breakstun each 40s, when every other class in game can spam all the cc they have, which btw are more than just 1 or 2, and keep doing damage with every other skill in the kit while they cc lock a necro?

    With the damage lower across the board, though, and the cc doing low damage, you don't need to worry about breaking stun as much, so you may not need to continue to run stunbreaks. Just wait it out and see.

    What you are suggesting is the most uninterractive way of playing one could ever imagine. Losing control over your character without the possibility of doing anything is the worst possible experience you can give.

    I don't find having 15 million stab, on top of 2 health bars, and a high natural health pool, making you tanky by default "interactive" and "fun". Especially after these damage nerfs. You want the best of all worlds. Too bad.

    To be fair necro never had that much stab.
    I feel like the nerf to reapers stability was a bit unnecessary as it is a melee elite spec on a light armor profession whos core design is based on keep away ideally there needs to be a bit of padding on going into melee range but its whatever.

    To be honest as a long term necro player it never had the best of all worlds despite what people think.
    Its easy to learn its offensive aspects but its defensive aspects are hard to master.
    With low mobility, low stability, no hard defenses, and the power creep that every other profession has gained. Necromancer was one of the more balanced professions (especially if you ignore the bugged scourge time periods) Almost every other profession in the game has a play style that can easily shutdown a necromancer with ele being the weakest due to chill screwing them and engi being the second weakest because its so dependent on boons.

    Currently there is no necromancer build that allows you to combat a large portion of other builds or professions in the game like you can find on warrior, holo, ranger, etc.
    If you opt for damage your defensive power drops significantly. Even with the shroud bar damage soaking is a far cry from damage blocking or evasion which is why people say necromancer needs more! ITs only option is damage soaking and thats not viably equal in terms of sustain to damage blocking/evasion in the power crept meta.
    If you opt for defensive boost then your damage output drops considerably and you lack the power to kill even some of the most glass cannon builds in the game the flip side is that, in a majority of these cases, the glass cannons still kill you as fast as they would another glass cannon which makes no sense considering you gave up considerable offensive pressure for improved defenses.

    The necromancer depends on soft conditions and damage soaking as pretty much all of its defense both of which have been indirectly and in some cases directly nerfed over a long span of time. Indirectly through power creep and directly through the boost to condition cleanses/condition immunities among other professions. Chill use to keep foes at bay from even a core necromancer but now everything can just run/leap/blink at you while ignoring the chill/cripple effects. Necromancer has been held to its core values for both its elites unlike so many others.

    Now are necromancers naturally more tanky? Yes
    Was it a wise choice to reduce their stability even more? Probably not but it might not be as bad as we think? IF damage drops are proper then damage soaking could become more viable for the necromancers putting it on a much closer effectiveness to avoiding / blocking damage which i would be ok with.

    Im fine with losing damage so long as everyone else lost just as much damage or in some cases moderately more damage as they hit considerably harder than necro did.
    Im fine with have less cc resistance so long as i can soak hits without instantly getting erased rather than avoid them as that is designed how shroud and necromancer is suppose to be played which is why it has no blocks, extra evades, direct vigor access, etc. currently the gap between soaking damage for defense and just avoiding damage is far too big. ITs easy to see why many necromancer players dislike the changes.

    My thoughts on doom not being instant is that core will be less effective in solo play situations especially if it gets caught out alone cause it now has no break stun on shroud access and will have no way to get someone off it when they are too close.
    The way they wrote it out im not sure if doom can still be used while under cc and if it just has a delay before it hits or if it cant be used at all while under cc.

    If its the second option then im going to enjoy forcing dodges by spam canceling it which people might find even more frustrating than the instant one lol.

    As of right now life force generation was not touched though so necro might be fine even if its pingpong ball, if anything it might better than it is now not because of buffs but because overall game damage is lower letting its defensive style of play shine brighter than it has in a long time. This will be what makes people call necro op. Lets see if this will be the one time necro has something viable that is allowed to stay thats not boon corruption.

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:
    Dmg reduction is fine and corruption too(if and only if we see a real decline of boon spam, otherwise you'll see even more boonspam without anything keeping it in check).
    Now here are the things I really do not understand:

    • Executioners Scythe: why remove the dmg component when it's clear it was meanth as killer hit since even its dmg scales with the percentage of enemy's health. In my opinion you should remove the cc and keep the dmg, not do the opposite.
    • Spectral walk and armor didn't deserve a nerf since you already removed a key component for core necro survivability (foot in the grave). You now force any necromancer to basically run with always 2 or 3 breakstuns, not to talk about the fact that the breakstun on entering shroud, actually grants the ability to instantly react to a cc lock down.
    • Doom: the usefull part of this ability was the fact it was instant, most of all a lot of people complain about the fear duration not the fact it was instant. Infact doom being instant is crucial to actually try to stop a burst while in core shroud.
    • Infusing Terror: really you nerf stability on reaper shroud which needs it to stay in melee without being cc locked? Reduce it to 2 stacks instead of 3 but keep the duration. Because stab on reaper shroud is crucial, to be able to cast something that it is not autoattack since every skill has a 1.25s cast time or more. You expect a melee shroud mode with long cast times to actually be usefull without the ability to cast its slow abilities without any protection vs CCs?

    You can't nerf dmg and corruption on necro and at the same time increase its weakness to CC too, in my opinion is too much. You say you want less stab on necro and that's fine but even going hammer on breakstuns? Like 15s increase on trail of anguish? Is any necro spec supposed to have 1 breakstun each 40s, when every other class in game can spam all the cc they have, which btw are more than just 1 or 2, and keep doing damage with every other skill in the kit while they cc lock a necro?

    With the damage lower across the board, though, and the cc doing low damage, you don't need to worry about breaking stun as much, so you may not need to continue to run stunbreaks. Just wait it out and see.

    What you are suggesting is the most uninterractive way of playing one could ever imagine. Losing control over your character without the possibility of doing anything is the worst possible experience you can give.

    I don't find having 15 million stab, on top of 2 health bars, and a high natural health pool, making you tanky by default "interactive" and "fun". Especially after these damage nerfs. You want the best of all worlds. Too bad.

    To be fair necro never had that much stab.
    I feel like the nerf to reapers stability was a bit unnecessary as it is a melee elite spec on a light armor profession whos core design is based on keep away ideally there needs to be a bit of padding on going into melee range but its whatever.

    To be honest as a long term necro player it never had the best of all worlds despite what people think.
    Its easy to learn its offensive aspects but its defensive aspects are hard to master.
    With low mobility, low stability, no hard defenses, and the power creep that every other profession has gained. Necromancer was one of the more balanced professions (especially if you ignore the bugged scourge time periods) Almost every other profession in the game has a play style that can easily shutdown a necromancer with ele being the weakest due to chill screwing them and engi being the second weakest because its so dependent on boons.

    Currently there is no necromancer build that allows you to combat a large portion of other builds or professions in the game like you can find on warrior, holo, ranger, etc.
    If you opt for damage your defensive power drops significantly. Even with the shroud bar damage soaking is a far cry from damage blocking or evasion which is why people say necromancer needs more! ITs only option is damage soaking and thats not viably equal in terms of sustain to damage blocking/evasion in the power crept meta.
    If you opt for defensive boost then your damage output drops considerably and you lack the power to kill even some of the most glass cannon builds in the game the flip side is that, in a majority of these cases, the glass cannons still kill you as fast as they would another glass cannon which makes no sense considering you gave up considerable offensive pressure for improved defenses.

    The necromancer depends on soft conditions and damage soaking as pretty much all of its defense both of which have been indirectly and in some cases directly nerfed over a long span of time. Indirectly through power creep and directly through the boost to condition cleanses/condition immunities among other professions. Chill use to keep foes at bay from even a core necromancer but now everything can just run/leap/blink at you while ignoring the chill/cripple effects. Necromancer has been held to its core values for both its elites unlike so many others.

    Now are necromancers naturally more tanky? Yes
    Was it a wise choice to reduce their stability even more? Probably not but it might not be as bad as we think? IF damage drops are proper then damage soaking could become more viable for the necromancers putting it on a much closer effectiveness to avoiding / blocking damage which i would be ok with.

    Im fine with losing damage so long as everyone else lost just as much damage or in some cases moderately more damage as they hit considerably harder than necro did.
    Im fine with have less cc resistance so long as i can soak hits without instantly getting erased rather than avoid them as that is designed how shroud and necromancer is suppose to be played which is why it has no blocks, extra evades, direct vigor access, etc. currently the gap between soaking damage for defense and just avoiding damage is far too big. ITs easy to see why many necromancer players dislike the changes.

    My thoughts on doom not being instant is that core will be less effective in solo play situations especially if it gets caught out alone cause it now has no break stun on shroud access and will have no way to get someone off it when they are too close.
    The way they wrote it out im not sure if doom can still be used while under cc and if it just has a delay before it hits or if it cant be used at all while under cc.

    If its the second option then im going to enjoy forcing dodges by spam canceling it which people might find even more frustrating than the instant one lol.

    As of right now life force generation was not touched though so necro might be fine even if its pingpong ball, if anything it might better than it is now not because of buffs but because overall game damage is lower letting its defensive style of play shine brighter than it has in a long time. This will be what makes people call necro op. Lets see if this will be the one time necro has something viable that is allowed to stay thats not boon corruption.

    More or less, the 15 million stab comment was using the commentor's hypethetical scenario of if necros were given more stab.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @hotte in space.2158 said:

    Losing control over your character without the possibility of doing anything is the worst possible experience you can give.

    nope, its being killed out of stealth

    I think i agree with this only if its a 1 tap though.
    At least if you lose control you can build skills that give some resistance against that to allow you to play.

    IF you get 1 tapped from stealth you dont even get to play... not getting to play = 0 fun

  • Teb.6980Teb.6980 Member ✭✭
    edited February 5, 2020

    Watch me never using Holographic Shockwave. Ever.
    What's the point in heating up a whooping 25% for 400 damage (lmfao) and a short stun? Not to mention casting it is slow, you can't move, and the range is actually shorter than the auto attack range XD

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Yes and as i described the rebalance that happend was overall still a power creep also for Engi.

    It was not. We can agree to disagree but I'm not sure why, you've said multiple times you don't know about the effect that Core Specs did to Engi in 2015. Core specs brought the performance of Engineer down relative to other classes. Adding an F5 skill off-set the sizable PvP nerfs by a bit to where it was middle of the pack, in an overall pretty balanced meta. You'll have to just trust me on this one, I was a full-time competitive Engi main, it was literally my job from Dec 2014-August 2016 to know.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2020

    @bravan.3876 said:
    As said i don't think Scrapper needs more trade off than vita penalty maybe some dmg reduction on hammer skills or whatever (outside of the coming big patch)

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Ofc i would not nerf hammer skills further outside of the big patch.

    You just contradict yourself

    @bravan.3876 said:
    I t was just an example on how to balance Scrapper when NEEDED

    You kind of backpeddle and are all over the place but yeah I can see now you don't actually believe holo trade offs are the lightest, or Scrapper needs more hammer nerfs. We agree

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • NecroSummonsMors.7816NecroSummonsMors.7816 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2020

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:
    Dmg reduction is fine and corruption too(if and only if we see a real decline of boon spam, otherwise you'll see even more boonspam without anything keeping it in check).
    Now here are the things I really do not understand:

    • Executioners Scythe: why remove the dmg component when it's clear it was meanth as killer hit since even its dmg scales with the percentage of enemy's health. In my opinion you should remove the cc and keep the dmg, not do the opposite.
    • Spectral walk and armor didn't deserve a nerf since you already removed a key component for core necro survivability (foot in the grave). You now force any necromancer to basically run with always 2 or 3 breakstuns, not to talk about the fact that the breakstun on entering shroud, actually grants the ability to instantly react to a cc lock down.
    • Doom: the usefull part of this ability was the fact it was instant, most of all a lot of people complain about the fear duration not the fact it was instant. Infact doom being instant is crucial to actually try to stop a burst while in core shroud.
    • Infusing Terror: really you nerf stability on reaper shroud which needs it to stay in melee without being cc locked? Reduce it to 2 stacks instead of 3 but keep the duration. Because stab on reaper shroud is crucial, to be able to cast something that it is not autoattack since every skill has a 1.25s cast time or more. You expect a melee shroud mode with long cast times to actually be usefull without the ability to cast its slow abilities without any protection vs CCs?

    You can't nerf dmg and corruption on necro and at the same time increase its weakness to CC too, in my opinion is too much. You say you want less stab on necro and that's fine but even going hammer on breakstuns? Like 15s increase on trail of anguish? Is any necro spec supposed to have 1 breakstun each 40s, when every other class in game can spam all the cc they have, which btw are more than just 1 or 2, and keep doing damage with every other skill in the kit while they cc lock a necro?

    With the damage lower across the board, though, and the cc doing low damage, you don't need to worry about breaking stun as much, so you may not need to continue to run stunbreaks. Just wait it out and see.

    What you are suggesting is the most uninterractive way of playing one could ever imagine. Losing control over your character without the possibility of doing anything is the worst possible experience you can give.

    I don't find having 15 million stab, on top of 2 health bars, and a high natural health pool, making you tanky by default "interactive" and "fun". Especially after these damage nerfs. You want the best of all worlds. Too bad.

    They only thing that will be tanky is core necro which will have 0 access to stability(except lich form, which nobody takes ever as elite). Reaper needs the stability to even be able to cast something, considering its long cast times. And if you compare reaper's stability access and duration to other classes it actually pales in comparison to them.
    And yes I consider getting your character cc locked while you can't do anything about it uninterractive and not fun, you should try it and see how an awfull experience it is, especially while the entire enemy team gets on you, because you are a sitting duck, and you can't even try to escape it.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2020

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Yes and as i described the rebalance that happend was overall still a power creep also for Engi.

    It was not. We can agree to disagree but I'm not sure why, you've said multiple times you don't know about the effect that Core Specs did to Engi in 2015. Core specs brought the performance of Engineer down relative to other classes. Adding an F5 skill off-set the sizable PvP nerfs by a bit to where it was middle of the pack, in an overall pretty balanced meta. You'll have to just trust me on this one, I was a full-time competitive Engi main, it was literally my job from Dec 2014-August 2016 to know.

    How got Engi then power creeped from back then to now outside of elite specs? When you say everything that happend pre HoT in clear preparation of HoT didn't power creep Engi at all and was fully compensated by nerfs on other places back then? I can't remember any remarkable buffs to core traitlines from Engi since HoT release what might be rooted in me not rly looking at Engi balance history.

    I rly like to believe you and i know you are a knowledgable and good player (and it is actually my bad to not get into the archive and do the complete research myslf, no doubt) but just one post before you tried to sell me the kit lockout from Holomode as trade off, how can i be sure you didn't mistake other pre HoT buffs as nerf?

    Anyway all i wanted to say is, that i don't even understand the need to add a second or even triple trade off to specs like Holo or Soulbeast. I also don't understand why in opposite specs which didn't get additional skills from elite (like Necro) don't need another trade off even though the new replacing skills are clearly an upgrade from the core skills (and pls don't say Scourge lost shroud, that was compensated with barrier mechanic, it is just a mechanic switch not a downgrade). I just find the whole trade off wave confusing and in comparision between elite specs unfair (Mesmer specs, Soulbeast) and bad (Daredevil) implemented.

    As you say yourself, a lot of elite specs that got stuff on top of core (either more skills/cds or a stronger mechanic) had at least one or even more inherent trade offs implemented right from the start. Trade offs that make sense and higher the skillneed to play the spec (also compared to core, higher skill ceiling is an additional trade off already). If some of the builds using elite lines are still op then in my view it is more then enough to make adjustments to dmg and other rewards of skills/traits (like condi clone ambush skills and normal autoattacks from clones on Mesmer which need nerfs) and/ or higher cds from stuff that causes the problems (without slowing down the playstyle too hard). Means just doing normal nerfs to builds instead giving additional trade offs taking away parts of the elite mechanic itself.

    Trade offs, like the Soulbeast one, which delete active gameplay mechanics in additon to the already existing inherent trade offs are self-defeating, they make specs more clunky and less skilled. In case of Mesmer even completely unplayable. That is rly all i am saying. Holo has one trade off (Head) and it is enough. If the Holospec is still overperforming then you can adjust by stat penalty higher cds and lower dmg and such kitten, there is no need to kill the Holomechanic with another not needed trade off (like giving Holomode only 3 skills aside from autoattack instead of 4, means simply deleting skills and mechanics you are already used to, would you like that? Feels bad when you also could just higher the cds or nerf the dmg of Holoskills a little bit to make them balanced). But that is what happened to other specs.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 6, 2020

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    As said i don't think Scrapper needs more trade off than vita penalty maybe some dmg reduction on hammer skills or whatever (outside of the coming big patch)

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Ofc i would not nerf hammer skills further outside of the big patch.

    You just contradict yourself

    @bravan.3876 said:
    I t was just an example on how to balance Scrapper when NEEDED

    You kind of backpeddle and are all over the place but yeah I can see now you don't actually believe holo trade offs are the lightest, or Scrapper needs more hammer nerfs. We agree

    How is it a backpeddle when i just correct your missunderstanding? I just mean in case Scrapper would be op, you would not add another trade off on top of what Scrapper already has (-200 vita), you would just nerf skills or trades which are too strong, you would not delete one or two Hammerskills and make it a 3 skill weapon as a trade off.
    The part with "outside of the big balance patch" was just to make sure you understand that i mean nerfs/trade offs to Scrapper which are directed at the elite and not just normal nerfs we now get with the patch anyway.

    Again, pls stop tunnelvisioning. I feel like you read more inbetween lines trying to find something that is not there and being feared to find a hidden nerf request from me to your main class. That is not my point. I just talk about the trade off kitten and that other classes got unfairly harder trade offed than other classes. During i don't want the less harder trade offed classes to get more trade offed, i want that the harder tradeoffed class to get a fair and balance trade off too.
    Holo got what it deserved right from start of PoF, it doesn't need a second trade off. It rly doesn't (the only thing could be considered after patch and in case Holo even cause any problems as spec would be to higher the head penalty a LITTLE BIT IF NEEDED, that is the only thing directly addressed at the elite mechanic that could be adjusted IF NEEDED. But never ever add another trade off to Holo, only normal nerfs IF NEEDED.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:
    Dmg reduction is fine and corruption too(if and only if we see a real decline of boon spam, otherwise you'll see even more boonspam without anything keeping it in check).
    Now here are the things I really do not understand:

    • Executioners Scythe: why remove the dmg component when it's clear it was meanth as killer hit since even its dmg scales with the percentage of enemy's health. In my opinion you should remove the cc and keep the dmg, not do the opposite.
    • Spectral walk and armor didn't deserve a nerf since you already removed a key component for core necro survivability (foot in the grave). You now force any necromancer to basically run with always 2 or 3 breakstuns, not to talk about the fact that the breakstun on entering shroud, actually grants the ability to instantly react to a cc lock down.
    • Doom: the usefull part of this ability was the fact it was instant, most of all a lot of people complain about the fear duration not the fact it was instant. Infact doom being instant is crucial to actually try to stop a burst while in core shroud.
    • Infusing Terror: really you nerf stability on reaper shroud which needs it to stay in melee without being cc locked? Reduce it to 2 stacks instead of 3 but keep the duration. Because stab on reaper shroud is crucial, to be able to cast something that it is not autoattack since every skill has a 1.25s cast time or more. You expect a melee shroud mode with long cast times to actually be usefull without the ability to cast its slow abilities without any protection vs CCs?

    You can't nerf dmg and corruption on necro and at the same time increase its weakness to CC too, in my opinion is too much. You say you want less stab on necro and that's fine but even going hammer on breakstuns? Like 15s increase on trail of anguish? Is any necro spec supposed to have 1 breakstun each 40s, when every other class in game can spam all the cc they have, which btw are more than just 1 or 2, and keep doing damage with every other skill in the kit while they cc lock a necro?

    With the damage lower across the board, though, and the cc doing low damage, you don't need to worry about breaking stun as much, so you may not need to continue to run stunbreaks. Just wait it out and see.

    What you are suggesting is the most uninterractive way of playing one could ever imagine. Losing control over your character without the possibility of doing anything is the worst possible experience you can give.

    I don't find having 15 million stab, on top of 2 health bars, and a high natural health pool, making you tanky by default "interactive" and "fun". Especially after these damage nerfs. You want the best of all worlds. Too bad.

    They only thing that will be tanky is core necro which will have 0 access to stability(except lich form, which nobody takes ever as elite). Reaper needs the stability to even be able to cast something, considering its long cast times. And if you compare reaper's stability access and duration to other classes it actually pales in comparison to them.
    And yes I consider getting your character cc locked while you can't do anything about it uninterractive and not fun, you should try it and see how an awfull experience it is, especially while the entire enemy team gets on you, because you are a sitting duck, and you can't even try to escape it.

    Core necro is going to require more support to be effective going forward if 2 people jump on it and no one peels for it then its going to die. Which is likely going to happen alot unless you have a firebrand or tempest sitting on your rump the whole time or your teams damage and focus is good enough to kill more of the enemy team in the time it might take a few of them to kill the necromancer.

    Generally speaking its never fun being the first one to be focused but the way i see it is necro will always be that way until untill they give it something that allows it to slip out of a situation thats not "wurm" like the other professions have or untill they take more away from the other professions making them higher potential targets to go for. Necro is generally easy to go for because people know its generally not going to be able to disengage a fight once it goes in. Either it kills you with the team or it dies its rare that you get a chance to escape as necro where people wont chase you down

    Keep in mind though

    • Life force gains are not changing as of yet
    • CC skills wont be doing much damage so if the majority of the things that hit you are cc only in quick succession it wont be a ton of damage if any damage at all.
    • Overall damage is going to be lower meaning shroud can do what it was meant to do which is soak damage for sustain right now it fails at doing that because damage is too high shroud melts and you get blown up.
    • We are finally getting out of the kill quick or be killed meta. This meta does not work well for the design of necromancer having no hard defense so this is a good thing.

    If you are focused and cc locked its not the end of the world. ITs not going to be fun but if the whole team focuses you and cant kill you in a reasonable time and your team can destory them because they are so dead set on focusing you then do what you can trading one death for 2-3 deaths on the enemy team is actually a better outcome a match overall which would mean you played your role effectively.

    Short term/ in the moment and or perhaps roaming in wvw though yes it might feel pretty crappy. :C

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:
    Dmg reduction is fine and corruption too(if and only if we see a real decline of boon spam, otherwise you'll see even more boonspam without anything keeping it in check).
    Now here are the things I really do not understand:

    • Executioners Scythe: why remove the dmg component when it's clear it was meanth as killer hit since even its dmg scales with the percentage of enemy's health. In my opinion you should remove the cc and keep the dmg, not do the opposite.
    • Spectral walk and armor didn't deserve a nerf since you already removed a key component for core necro survivability (foot in the grave). You now force any necromancer to basically run with always 2 or 3 breakstuns, not to talk about the fact that the breakstun on entering shroud, actually grants the ability to instantly react to a cc lock down.
    • Doom: the usefull part of this ability was the fact it was instant, most of all a lot of people complain about the fear duration not the fact it was instant. Infact doom being instant is crucial to actually try to stop a burst while in core shroud.
    • Infusing Terror: really you nerf stability on reaper shroud which needs it to stay in melee without being cc locked? Reduce it to 2 stacks instead of 3 but keep the duration. Because stab on reaper shroud is crucial, to be able to cast something that it is not autoattack since every skill has a 1.25s cast time or more. You expect a melee shroud mode with long cast times to actually be usefull without the ability to cast its slow abilities without any protection vs CCs?

    You can't nerf dmg and corruption on necro and at the same time increase its weakness to CC too, in my opinion is too much. You say you want less stab on necro and that's fine but even going hammer on breakstuns? Like 15s increase on trail of anguish? Is any necro spec supposed to have 1 breakstun each 40s, when every other class in game can spam all the cc they have, which btw are more than just 1 or 2, and keep doing damage with every other skill in the kit while they cc lock a necro?

    With the damage lower across the board, though, and the cc doing low damage, you don't need to worry about breaking stun as much, so you may not need to continue to run stunbreaks. Just wait it out and see.

    What you are suggesting is the most uninterractive way of playing one could ever imagine. Losing control over your character without the possibility of doing anything is the worst possible experience you can give.

    I don't find having 15 million stab, on top of 2 health bars, and a high natural health pool, making you tanky by default "interactive" and "fun". Especially after these damage nerfs. You want the best of all worlds. Too bad.

    They only thing that will be tanky is core necro which will have 0 access to stability(except lich form, which nobody takes ever as elite). Reaper needs the stability to even be able to cast something, considering its long cast times. And if you compare reaper's stability access and duration to other classes it actually pales in comparison to them.
    And yes I consider getting your character cc locked while you can't do anything about it uninterractive and not fun, you should try it and see how an awfull experience it is, especially while the entire enemy team gets on you, because you are a sitting duck, and you can't even try to escape it.

    Well of power also grants a second of stability, so your claim that core necro will have 0 is already false.
    While traited to Reaper, your shroud skill 3 grants a few stacks of stab. There's another source.
    As well, while in Reaper, Chilled to the Bone grants 2? stacks of stability.
    While traited with Scourge, you get Stability from Trail of Anguish.
    Lets also mention one of your minions, though not sure if that minion gets the stab, or if the necro itself gets the stab, when you use the command skill for it.
    There's also Feed From Corruption in Scourge, that allows you to gain the boon you corrupted on the enemy.

    Now here's a word from our sponsors, ArenaNet:
    Necromancer has always been designed to be a resilient profession that was light on Stability. Since this update specifically is removing some stability from their traits we made sure to buff their stunbreak skills appropriately in response. Additionally we've fixed a few issues with minion responsiveness and buffed a few of the weaker minion command skills.
    Lets zoom in on that part. LIGHT on stability.
    LIGHT.

    Any other questions?

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • NecroSummonsMors.7816NecroSummonsMors.7816 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2020

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:
    Dmg reduction is fine and corruption too(if and only if we see a real decline of boon spam, otherwise you'll see even more boonspam without anything keeping it in check).
    Now here are the things I really do not understand:

    • Executioners Scythe: why remove the dmg component when it's clear it was meanth as killer hit since even its dmg scales with the percentage of enemy's health. In my opinion you should remove the cc and keep the dmg, not do the opposite.
    • Spectral walk and armor didn't deserve a nerf since you already removed a key component for core necro survivability (foot in the grave). You now force any necromancer to basically run with always 2 or 3 breakstuns, not to talk about the fact that the breakstun on entering shroud, actually grants the ability to instantly react to a cc lock down.
    • Doom: the usefull part of this ability was the fact it was instant, most of all a lot of people complain about the fear duration not the fact it was instant. Infact doom being instant is crucial to actually try to stop a burst while in core shroud.
    • Infusing Terror: really you nerf stability on reaper shroud which needs it to stay in melee without being cc locked? Reduce it to 2 stacks instead of 3 but keep the duration. Because stab on reaper shroud is crucial, to be able to cast something that it is not autoattack since every skill has a 1.25s cast time or more. You expect a melee shroud mode with long cast times to actually be usefull without the ability to cast its slow abilities without any protection vs CCs?

    You can't nerf dmg and corruption on necro and at the same time increase its weakness to CC too, in my opinion is too much. You say you want less stab on necro and that's fine but even going hammer on breakstuns? Like 15s increase on trail of anguish? Is any necro spec supposed to have 1 breakstun each 40s, when every other class in game can spam all the cc they have, which btw are more than just 1 or 2, and keep doing damage with every other skill in the kit while they cc lock a necro?

    With the damage lower across the board, though, and the cc doing low damage, you don't need to worry about breaking stun as much, so you may not need to continue to run stunbreaks. Just wait it out and see.

    What you are suggesting is the most uninterractive way of playing one could ever imagine. Losing control over your character without the possibility of doing anything is the worst possible experience you can give.

    I don't find having 15 million stab, on top of 2 health bars, and a high natural health pool, making you tanky by default "interactive" and "fun". Especially after these damage nerfs. You want the best of all worlds. Too bad.

    They only thing that will be tanky is core necro which will have 0 access to stability(except lich form, which nobody takes ever as elite). Reaper needs the stability to even be able to cast something, considering its long cast times. And if you compare reaper's stability access and duration to other classes it actually pales in comparison to them.
    And yes I consider getting your character cc locked while you can't do anything about it uninterractive and not fun, you should try it and see how an awfull experience it is, especially while the entire enemy team gets on you, because you are a sitting duck, and you can't even try to escape it.

    Core necro is going to require more support to be effective going forward if 2 people jump on it and no one peels for it then its going to die. Which is likely going to happen alot unless you have a firebrand or tempest sitting on your rump the whole time or your teams damage and focus is good enough to kill more of the enemy team in the time it might take a few of them to kill the necromancer.

    Generally speaking its never fun being the first one to be focused but the way i see it is necro will always be that way until untill they give it something that allows it to slip out of a situation thats not "wurm" like the other professions have or untill they take more away from the other professions making them higher potential targets to go for. Necro is generally easy to go for because people know its generally not going to be able to disengage a fight once it goes in. Either it kills you with the team or it dies its rare that you get a chance to escape as necro where people wont chase you down

    Keep in mind though

    • Life force gains are not changing as of yet
    • CC skills wont be doing much damage so if the majority of the things that hit you are cc only in quick succession it wont be a ton of damage if any damage at all.
    • Overall damage is going to be lower meaning shroud can do what it was meant to do which is soak damage for sustain right now it fails at doing that because damage is too high shroud melts and you get blown up.
    • We are finally getting out of the kill quick or be killed meta. This meta does not work well for the design of necromancer having no hard defense so this is a good thing.

    If you are focused and cc locked its not the end of the world. ITs not going to be fun but if the whole team focuses you and cant kill you in a reasonable time and your team can destory them because they are so dead set on focusing you then do what you can trading one death for 2-3 deaths on the enemy team is actually a better outcome a match overall which would mean you played your role effectively.

    Short term/ in the moment and or perhaps roaming in wvw though yes it might feel pretty crappy. :C

    Every thing you say, I already know since I play necro, and yes roaming on necro will now be even worse. Still the need to be baby sit because Anet doesn't/can't understand how to improve necro, while keeping it in check, leaves me baffled. This patch will nerf necromancer in every aspect dmg, corruption, breakstuns and stability, and the last 2 were not deserved at all in my opinion.

  • NecroSummonsMors.7816NecroSummonsMors.7816 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2020

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    Well of power also grants a second of stability, so your claim that core necro will have 0 is already false.
    While traited to Reaper, your shroud skill 3 grants a few stacks of stab. There's another source.
    As well, while in Reaper, Chilled to the Bone grants 2? stacks of stability.
    While traited with Scourge, you get Stability from Trail of Anguish.
    Lets also mention one of your minions, though not sure if that minion gets the stab, or if the necro itself gets the stab, when you use the command skill for it.
    There's also Feed From Corruption in Scourge, that allows you to gain the boon you corrupted on the enemy.

    Now here's a word from our sponsors, ArenaNet:
    Necromancer has always been designed to be a resilient profession that was light on Stability. Since this update specifically is removing some stability from their traits we made sure to buff their stunbreak skills appropriately in response. Additionally we've fixed a few issues with minion responsiveness and buffed a few of the weaker minion command skills.
    Lets zoom in on that part. LIGHT on stability.
    LIGHT.

    Any other questions?

    The 1 second of stability is there to actually grant the possibility of casting the skill which is a breakstun, otherwise you wouldn't even have the chance of casting it.
    Chilled to the Bone grants stab only if you actually hit something. And I actually have no problem with a nerf to it since it's a pretty impactfull skill.
    Trail of Anguish got an increased 15s cd. Really 50s cd for a breakstun and 1 stack of stab for 6s, man such an op skill...
    The golem activation skill doesn't grant stability to the necromancer.
    Feed From Corruption until now has seen no use at all, that might change in the future, but I still highly doubt that.
    The statment of Anet on necro being light on stability has been through for years and it's not new, what is annoying is this: you wanna nerf stability fine, but then don't claim to buff the breakstuns when in reality they nerfed all of them(the most used) except well of power, wurm and "you are all weaklings". Because that's just saying 1 thing than doing another. The point of the patch should have been nerf dmg and corruptions, while freeing the necromancer from the constant need of support to even be able to survive.
    You clearly do not play necromancer, your lack of knowledge of skills you mentioned proves it. That's why you obviously do not understand my point of view on how necro will become even more weak to cc lock, like it wasn't weak already to that.

  • NecroSummonsMors.7816NecroSummonsMors.7816 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2020

    @hotte in space.2158 said:

    Losing control over your character without the possibility of doing anything is the worst possible experience you can give.

    nope, its being killed out of stealth

    Ye you right oneshots from stealth are worse than that xD

  • Hello,

    Thanks you ArenaNet for all this work about this patch and this new approach to the game balance. A lot of people, including me, is heavily waiting for such a patch, and you can expect us to play your game a lot when this patch will be available.

    Even thought most damages/sustain abilities have been decreased by ~33%, there are still some abilities/traits untouched, which can be then considered as those traits get a huge buff. But I am confident that over time, the game will find a great balance.

    I have read most of the patch note, and, from my experience I could provide some stuff that could be too strong if this exact patch note is released :

    • I haven't seen elsewhere anything about the retaliation buff, which currently, if my memories are good, reflect 300 damages per hit with a high amount of power, which could become pretty huge (especially against some builds). Hopefully, it seems that the uptime of buffs have been decreased. But I still fear that some builds can keep this buff always up and then have a great advantage (especially guardians and engineers).

    • The Base Necromancer and reaper could be MUCH tanker than ever, because their life force recovering seems to not have been modified. It is even highly probable that a bunker meta arround Necromancers happens. I have currently a build that run a 37K HP tank necro with 30K life force, (33K life if going with alteration damage, but the life force recovering is lower) and, with the signet of no-life and signet of vampirish (buffed with a specific trait), you have a tremendous sustain (even in death shroud). Keep an eye on how fast a necromancer can recover his life force... Especially when you adds a new trait that replace "foot in the grave" that fills really great to improve the sustain of the build (but losing a lot of damages, but it's ok, because the "life blast" of the death shroud have been decreased by around 15% instead of 33%).

    • In the same idea, there are also a tank thief build based around high sustain and dodges, which will be nerfed by the "death blossom" cost increased from 4 to 5 and the base heal on dodge diminished from 450 to 150 (huge nerf on this specific sustain btw), but all the others stuff haven't been changed, will it be enough to not make a bunker meta ?

    • I have played the "support", healer warrior with shouts, and currently, it is actually really powerfull how you can heal your team and being pretty usefull, and you know what ? The heal on shouts have not been that much nerfed (around 10% less base heal). This build might be pretty strong after the patch.

    Now, I'll respond to some comments in this forum, which I don't understand the reasoning :

    • "This patch will decrease the build diversity of the game" : I just litterally don't agree. Decreasing damage indirectly nerf CCs, because when someone will be CCed, he'll receive less damage during this vulnerability window, and therefore, the game will tend more to a state where the player will not be forced to pick a break-stun in his build, increasing the build diversity by picking other utilities than a breakstun. Currently, running a build without a breakstun probably mean low survivability.

    • "I don't understand reducing to 0 the damages of CCs skills, it is gonna make them useless" : For some rare specific skills which I agree with, because they are either situationnal or have an obvious animation/are hard to hit because it is a close range ability (big Oil bomb, and few other), this idea is really logic and healthy by following this thinking : Imagine 3 players that want to take down one main target pretty, it is then really easy for them to use each of their CCs abilities, without considering what does your mates, which will naturally kill the target by the overwhelming CCs and damages which will chain very easily (aren't you annoyed when you burn your 2 or 3 breakstun in a row, and you end up still CCed to death ?).
      Now, people will have to see if the target need to be CCed, to help other to hit it, or simply attacked, because the target is vulnerable.

    • "thieves is currently the most dominant pick, and therefore, it is the strongest class of the game, and you are not nerfing his damages as much as other classes + you didn't nerf his mobility + You should better nerf the shadow art tree" :
      You can say "X in the thief is too strong" or anything else, you'll hardly change my mind : From my experience, what make the thief currently very powerfull is not really one of his weapon set, or perma stealth (or even his mobility which is one of his intented strenght), but mostly because by pressing F1, he have an INSTANT teleport to his target, that interrupt it, rip 3 boons (which make the interrupt and follow up burst/damages stronger against stability/protection users), deal 2K (even more with pulmonary impact), heal the thief for 2K, poison, reducing the ennemy sustain, and since the thief have INSTANTLY teleported to his ennemy which is dazed without buffs, then vulnerable for one second, the thief will naturally auto-attack, increasing the burst potential of the combo. And you know what ? Most meta thief build (at least every popular ones) uses the same specifics traits so that they can achieve this thing.
      In this patch note, the auto-attack damages have been decreased like other classes, Mug damages (damages on steal) have been halved, pulmonary impact damages have been highly decreased, and the reaping boon is decreased to 2 boons ripped. This is a good nerf to the thief burst potential on stealing.

  • mrauls.6519mrauls.6519 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Will lesser smite condition also remove 3 conditions?

    @Ben Phongluangtham.1065
    @Cal Cohen.2358

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:
    Dmg reduction is fine and corruption too(if and only if we see a real decline of boon spam, otherwise you'll see even more boonspam without anything keeping it in check).
    Now here are the things I really do not understand:

    • Executioners Scythe: why remove the dmg component when it's clear it was meanth as killer hit since even its dmg scales with the percentage of enemy's health. In my opinion you should remove the cc and keep the dmg, not do the opposite.
    • Spectral walk and armor didn't deserve a nerf since you already removed a key component for core necro survivability (foot in the grave). You now force any necromancer to basically run with always 2 or 3 breakstuns, not to talk about the fact that the breakstun on entering shroud, actually grants the ability to instantly react to a cc lock down.
    • Doom: the usefull part of this ability was the fact it was instant, most of all a lot of people complain about the fear duration not the fact it was instant. Infact doom being instant is crucial to actually try to stop a burst while in core shroud.
    • Infusing Terror: really you nerf stability on reaper shroud which needs it to stay in melee without being cc locked? Reduce it to 2 stacks instead of 3 but keep the duration. Because stab on reaper shroud is crucial, to be able to cast something that it is not autoattack since every skill has a 1.25s cast time or more. You expect a melee shroud mode with long cast times to actually be usefull without the ability to cast its slow abilities without any protection vs CCs?

    You can't nerf dmg and corruption on necro and at the same time increase its weakness to CC too, in my opinion is too much. You say you want less stab on necro and that's fine but even going hammer on breakstuns? Like 15s increase on trail of anguish? Is any necro spec supposed to have 1 breakstun each 40s, when every other class in game can spam all the cc they have, which btw are more than just 1 or 2, and keep doing damage with every other skill in the kit while they cc lock a necro?

    With the damage lower across the board, though, and the cc doing low damage, you don't need to worry about breaking stun as much, so you may not need to continue to run stunbreaks. Just wait it out and see.

    What you are suggesting is the most uninterractive way of playing one could ever imagine. Losing control over your character without the possibility of doing anything is the worst possible experience you can give.

    I don't find having 15 million stab, on top of 2 health bars, and a high natural health pool, making you tanky by default "interactive" and "fun". Especially after these damage nerfs. You want the best of all worlds. Too bad.

    They only thing that will be tanky is core necro which will have 0 access to stability(except lich form, which nobody takes ever as elite). Reaper needs the stability to even be able to cast something, considering its long cast times. And if you compare reaper's stability access and duration to other classes it actually pales in comparison to them.
    And yes I consider getting your character cc locked while you can't do anything about it uninterractive and not fun, you should try it and see how an awfull experience it is, especially while the entire enemy team gets on you, because you are a sitting duck, and you can't even try to escape it.

    Core necro is going to require more support to be effective going forward if 2 people jump on it and no one peels for it then its going to die. Which is likely going to happen alot unless you have a firebrand or tempest sitting on your rump the whole time or your teams damage and focus is good enough to kill more of the enemy team in the time it might take a few of them to kill the necromancer.

    Generally speaking its never fun being the first one to be focused but the way i see it is necro will always be that way until untill they give it something that allows it to slip out of a situation thats not "wurm" like the other professions have or untill they take more away from the other professions making them higher potential targets to go for. Necro is generally easy to go for because people know its generally not going to be able to disengage a fight once it goes in. Either it kills you with the team or it dies its rare that you get a chance to escape as necro where people wont chase you down

    Keep in mind though

    • Life force gains are not changing as of yet
    • CC skills wont be doing much damage so if the majority of the things that hit you are cc only in quick succession it wont be a ton of damage if any damage at all.
    • Overall damage is going to be lower meaning shroud can do what it was meant to do which is soak damage for sustain right now it fails at doing that because damage is too high shroud melts and you get blown up.
    • We are finally getting out of the kill quick or be killed meta. This meta does not work well for the design of necromancer having no hard defense so this is a good thing.

    If you are focused and cc locked its not the end of the world. ITs not going to be fun but if the whole team focuses you and cant kill you in a reasonable time and your team can destory them because they are so dead set on focusing you then do what you can trading one death for 2-3 deaths on the enemy team is actually a better outcome a match overall which would mean you played your role effectively.

    Short term/ in the moment and or perhaps roaming in wvw though yes it might feel pretty crappy. :C

    Every thing you say, I already know since I play necro, and yes roaming on necro will now be even worse. Still the need to be baby sit because Anet doesn't/can't understand how to improve necro, while keeping it in check, leaves me baffled. This patch will nerf necromancer in every aspect dmg, corruption, breakstuns and stability, and the last 2 were not deserved at all in my opinion.

    I think the nerf to spectrals was a bit much considering they took spectral mastery some months back with the idea of making the skills better at their baseline but are now almost undoing that with this patch which is likely a design flaw they didnt consider.

    Foot in the grave was a trait players had been either asking to be replaced or outright buffed due to its age and well "be-careful what you wish for?" But in all honestly the trait they added should have been included in necro's kit some place. IS this spot perfect for it... probably not but it needs to be there for sure. I think this trait alone if people opt to use it will be a big game changer on how people start matches as core and reaper seeing as how right now that is the necromancers weakest moment in a match having to start with 0% life force.

    I think its less on improving necro and more so on fixing the majority of everyone else who is overperforming while necro was held to "some kind" of standard while the others were not.
    There is a reason necro over 2 elite specs only mostly gained self might, no extra evasion, no blocks, not much more mobility or stability.

    I personally would have rather seen foot in the grave buffed sure but Eternal Life aint a bad option on paper.

  • Please consider the - twist of fate - change. 60s seems about right. 75s is a bit harsh.

  • Dralor.3701Dralor.3701 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dralor.3701 said:
    Haven’t had time to read all the comments so I apologize if this has been asked but...

    Evade frames? Protection? Aegis? It seems like you are going ham on damage and not even paying attention to other forms of sustain outside of flat healing.

    One of the biggest issues this games has with pvp is evade and stealth uptime on thief/Mesmer. I don’t have a nicer way to say it but this sounds like more bad design that hasn’t fully been thought through or tested.

    Phase Retreat: Increased cooldown from 10 seconds to 12 seconds
    Illusionary Counter: Increased cooldown from 8 seconds to 12 seconds.
    Axes of Symmetry: Increased cooldown from 10 seconds to 15 seconds
    Sand Through Glass: Increased cooldown from 25 seconds to 30 seconds
    Evasive Mirror: Reduced mirror duration from 2 seconds to 1.5 seconds
    Mirror: Increased cooldown from 15 seconds to 20 seconds
    Mirage Cloak: This trait now reduces the mirage's endurance by 50 in competitive modes

    Why in the kitten nugged do you even comment if you wont read the patch ?

    EDIT remembered more!
    Illusionary Membrane: Reduced protection duration from 3 seconds to 2 seconds
    Chaotic Persistence: Reduced bonus boon and condition duration per boon from 2% to 1%
    Method of Madness: Increased cooldown from 35 seconds to 75 seconds
    Chaotic Dampening: Reduced protection duration from 4 seconds to 2.5 seconds

    This was a pretty rude response, I did read the patch you just missed the context of my question. Also defensive much? Thief is probably my first or second most played class but there are still huge balance issues.

    Cool downs are well and good but the functionality of certain mechanics are still a big problem at their core. Evades and invulnerability are bad for the game regardless of who has them, the time should be shortened if nothing else.

    Protection is going to be even more punishing to power builds and continue to do nothing to rein in conditions.

  • S O S core ele and tempest need help !
    Obsidian Flesh: This skill now locks the player's skill bar while invulnerable.
    This nerf targeted on weaver but kills focus core ele and focus tempest forever. Although there had been left just a few of them the past 3 years.
    IN THE NAME OF DIVERSITY please establish this change just for weaver, at least in PvP.
    For six years now I`m a passionate dagger/focus tempest player.15000 matches with my beloved character in PvP.
    And now this one and only essential defense skill gets destroyed?
    If this change happens I would be very very disappointed PLEASE HELP

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dralor.3701
    One of the biggest issues this games has with pvp is evade and stealth uptime on thief/Mesmer.
    your words not mine.
    mesmer got hit hard, almost every single evasive skill got increased CD.
    stop cluttering the formum, take 2 freaking minutes to READ the patch notes before you comment on them.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 6, 2020

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:
    Dmg reduction is fine and corruption too(if and only if we see a real decline of boon spam, otherwise you'll see even more boonspam without anything keeping it in check).
    Now here are the things I really do not understand:

    • Executioners Scythe: why remove the dmg component when it's clear it was meanth as killer hit since even its dmg scales with the percentage of enemy's health. In my opinion you should remove the cc and keep the dmg, not do the opposite.
    • Spectral walk and armor didn't deserve a nerf since you already removed a key component for core necro survivability (foot in the grave). You now force any necromancer to basically run with always 2 or 3 breakstuns, not to talk about the fact that the breakstun on entering shroud, actually grants the ability to instantly react to a cc lock down.
    • Doom: the usefull part of this ability was the fact it was instant, most of all a lot of people complain about the fear duration not the fact it was instant. Infact doom being instant is crucial to actually try to stop a burst while in core shroud.
    • Infusing Terror: really you nerf stability on reaper shroud which needs it to stay in melee without being cc locked? Reduce it to 2 stacks instead of 3 but keep the duration. Because stab on reaper shroud is crucial, to be able to cast something that it is not autoattack since every skill has a 1.25s cast time or more. You expect a melee shroud mode with long cast times to actually be usefull without the ability to cast its slow abilities without any protection vs CCs?

    You can't nerf dmg and corruption on necro and at the same time increase its weakness to CC too, in my opinion is too much. You say you want less stab on necro and that's fine but even going hammer on breakstuns? Like 15s increase on trail of anguish? Is any necro spec supposed to have 1 breakstun each 40s, when every other class in game can spam all the cc they have, which btw are more than just 1 or 2, and keep doing damage with every other skill in the kit while they cc lock a necro?

    With the damage lower across the board, though, and the cc doing low damage, you don't need to worry about breaking stun as much, so you may not need to continue to run stunbreaks. Just wait it out and see.

    What you are suggesting is the most uninterractive way of playing one could ever imagine. Losing control over your character without the possibility of doing anything is the worst possible experience you can give.

    I don't find having 15 million stab, on top of 2 health bars, and a high natural health pool, making you tanky by default "interactive" and "fun". Especially after these damage nerfs. You want the best of all worlds. Too bad.

    They only thing that will be tanky is core necro which will have 0 access to stability(except lich form, which nobody takes ever as elite). Reaper needs the stability to even be able to cast something, considering its long cast times. And if you compare reaper's stability access and duration to other classes it actually pales in comparison to them.
    And yes I consider getting your character cc locked while you can't do anything about it uninterractive and not fun, you should try it and see how an awfull experience it is, especially while the entire enemy team gets on you, because you are a sitting duck, and you can't even try to escape it.

    Well of power also grants a second of stability, so your claim that core necro will have 0 is already false.

    1 second though i feel i should step in and say this. 1s of stability is exteremly hard to use defensively its more or less there so that the skill will not easily be interupted on cast. Now why might that be? Its because anet has added several stun breaks to the game that also have cast times which are generally bad. In the past well of power might have been your last or only breakstun up at the time so you use it but also need to evade a very high powered incoming attack or a chain of cc. So what happens is that it will break your stun but because you dodged or got hit with another cc immediately it would go on full cooldown and cause the well to not actually be cast on the ground.
    The 1 second stability was a lazy fix to a skill that should technically be instant with 0 cast time. This happened alot more commonly then you might think. Even the chronomancer stun break well is flawed by this design where you can use it to break a stun but need to dodge or get cced resulting in you breaking the stun but not casting the well and so the same thing was done they added a 1s stab to cover the cast time of the well. Trust me that stability is not there for long term or even modest short term defensive purposes. Try to imagine if one of your go to breakstuns had a cast time on it and the cast started after the stun was broken but if you dodged or got stunned agian the skill would fail to activate and go on full cd. I would literally not count this in the line of "necro has stability" ITs more of a bandaid that covers 50% of a design flaw to a stun break skill.

    While traited to Reaper, your shroud skill 3 grants a few stacks of stab. There's another source.

    Yes infusing terror this one is legit but also needed as reaper is going to be in melee range 9 times out of 10 if you have access to that skill. Did it need nerfs maybe, maybe not personally ithink this is one of they few they could have left alone.

    As well, while in Reaper, Chilled to the Bone grants 2? stacks of stability.

    Also true but does require on hit effect but to be honest i have no complaints about the changes they did here imo chill to the bone now being a 3s stun with lower cd is on par with other aoe elites that stun like jade winds etc.

    While traited with Scourge, you get Stability from Trail of Anguish.

    This is 1 stack easily removed tbh Trail of anguish is literally more about the trail and helping you make distance and the break stun itself more than the stability. I would have rather seen the stability removed and the cooldown modified to a lesser extent pushing it to 50s which is the same cd as spectral walk now does not exactly seem fair.

    Lets also mention one of your minions, though not sure if that minion gets the stab, or if the necro itself gets the stab, when you use the command skill for it.

    The minion gets it not the caster by the way the last hit of the golem is suppose to hit very hard and do the blow out effect not the knock down effect but that will almost never happen due to its badly designed code in which it pierces through people. Anet baked the best part of the golem charge into the skill in a way where you almost never see it land even in pve.

    There's also Feed From Corruption in Scourge, that allows you to gain the boon you corrupted on the enemy.

    This is not a legit self source as boons corrupted from foes can vary widely base on the profession and there is never always a promise that you will get the boons you intend to with corrupts. Truth be told when was the last time you saw a scourge in pvp let alone a scourge in pvp using this trait? At the moment i dont think you will see a scourge unless a firebrand is tied to it with a rope even after this patch i dont think the number of scourges is going to increase by much its still off the mark imo and likey will require a full rework at this point.

    Now here's a word from our sponsors, ArenaNet:
    Necromancer has always been designed to be a resilient profession that was light on Stability. Since this update specifically is removing some stability from their traits we made sure to buff their stunbreak skills appropriately in response. Additionally we've fixed a few issues with minion responsiveness and buffed a few of the weaker minion command skills.
    Lets zoom in on that part. LIGHT on stability.
    LIGHT.

    Any other questions?

    Yeah where is the improvement to the stunbreak skills in the pvp side where they are actually more important? Im not trying to be a butt.... however they did...
    Remove spectral mastery some time ago and adjusted the cds and some effects on spectral skills as a QoL thing it also came with the same patch that removed "last ghasp" which was the necromancers passive proc trait that gave spectral armor when hit at or below 50%.
    Now they have pretty much reverted cds on spectral skills and strictly limited stability access.
    While yes in pve they did improve their stunbreak skills in pve they practically did the opposite in the pvp split. so im not sure how valid that post is when it comes to pvp.

    To be honest i get that the direction they want to go with the game and where you are looking at it from but i also get why NecroSummons is super annoyed when looking at the notes on paper because they dont make the most sense. The global post you pulled from does not match the changes they performed in the pvp notes at all.

  • why did you always make same mistake was like HOT released.
    have you checked that time so many player left because you had reduced warrior before?
    Right now again? so you will see more ppl leave again. Now , warrior is not powerful and nerf well.
    Good. So smart.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 6, 2020

    @Nelson.7485 said:
    why did you always make same mistake was like HOT released.
    have you checked that time so many player left because you had reduced warrior before?
    Right now again? so you will see more ppl leave again. Now , warrior is not powerful and nerf well.
    Good. So smart.

    Everyone got hard nerfs not just warrior.
    The cc doing no damage should have been thought out a bit more for classes like warrior who rely on them as predictable as they are for their bursts, imagine blades if not being done after hard cc lol. If warrior dps skills are being scaled down like the rest but WERE balanced around hard cc doing damage as well but now are not warrior could be a weak melee class lol imagine warrior the weak melee class of the game especially when u consider how integral hard cc are in that class lol. Classes that dont heavily rely on hard cc to do damage or as being part of their bursts will be loving this patch. With that said with everyone damage getting reduced warrior is definitely fair game for reductions as well.

  • @Bazooka.3590 said:
    It's a nice thing to working on game balance finally. Better late than never.
    My problem is with this patch it will kill the continuity of the game mechanic between pvp wvw and pve. Pve will be a whole other game with total different traits and skills. It can be misleading and it breaks the consistency even more between the game mods.
    In spite of that I'm curious of this update but don't forget to read the community posts (what you always do anyway:P) Maybe a beta server and some beta weekends would be good idea before the official release.
    ps
    Please keep in mind that the missing damage will make teleporting and resurrecting skills/traits much stronger too.

    This is one of my concerns about this patch also. I always felt doing one helped prepare you for the other.

    Also, their skills tabs are already nonsense to use, they feel cumbersome and broken. Though it does seem to remember the template you were using for skills, it does not seem to change weapons, probably because it is on a different template. I ended up in pvp with my DH equipped with a staff. If they are going to make such a hard division, they need to make sure their systems work properly and better synergize.

    I am also afraid it will be like playing WoW where to cool downs of even skill one were stupid slow. Especially since Anet wants to make cool downs felt. It is unnatural and makes battles feels like stilted. If they nerf mobility, and healing, we might as well just stand their and trade shots like old school Final Fantasy until someone loses.

  • mrauls.6519mrauls.6519 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Test of Faith

    Please make the protection duration 3 or 4 seconds... It was originally 6 seconds for a reason

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2020

    @mrauls.6519 said:

    Test of Faith

    Please make the protection duration 3 or 4 seconds... It was originally 6 seconds for a reason

    That made me chuckle
    Not related.
    Spotter's Shot: Reduced power coefficient from 0.8 to 0.4. Increased immobilize duration from 1 second to 1.5 seconds
    Its going to be fun to be perma immobilized and blinded, while he pewpew through the smoke wall that blocks projectiles and being all safe :)

  • Avatar.3568Avatar.3568 Member ✭✭✭

    @Nelson.7485 said:
    why did you always make same mistake was like HOT released.
    have you checked that time so many player left because you had reduced warrior before?
    Right now again? so you will see more ppl leave again. Now , warrior is not powerful and nerf well.
    Good. So smart.

    I don't think they left because of war

  • Nelson.7485Nelson.7485 Member ✭✭
    edited February 7, 2020

    @Avatar.3568 said:

    @Nelson.7485 said:
    why did you always make same mistake was like HOT released.
    have you checked that time so many player left because you had reduced warrior before?
    Right now again? so you will see more ppl leave again. Now , warrior is not powerful and nerf well.
    Good. So smart.

    I don't think they left because of war

    if you have been through that period that you will know why during that time no one played warrior and players population were really small until they fixed the first version of berserker.
    Let's see it happens again. I will be the first one left.

  • allias.1420allias.1420 Member ✭✭✭

    I like these changes. The shift from incredibly fast-paced, "spammy" combat system to a more thoughtful and tactical combat-based system is welcome in my book and I'm sure it's a welcoming change for many others too. I look forward to this.

  • @allias.1420 said:
    I like these changes. The shift from incredibly fast-paced, "spammy" combat system to a more thoughtful and tactical combat-based

    I feel like people who are using "spammy" to describe gw2 combat don't actually understand what that word means. Not targeting you specifically, there's been quite a few people who've used that in this post and you just happen to be the latest. The only class that spams in combat is thief, because thief skills have no cool down and the class is designed around the initiative mechanic. Hence thieves spam their skills. No other class has skills with no CD and therefore can't spam.

    The fast pace of gw2 combat has always been one of its greatest strengths imo. Look at other most other MMOs whose 'combat' is basically you standing still clicking skills and tab targeting in a yawnfest. So I disagree that the pace of the game needed to be slowed down.

    The main issue is powercreep atm and again imo I don't think blanket nerfing every class, including to go so far as to nerf useless traits that nobody even uses is the right way to go about it. To address the powercreep they should have looked at each trait/skill individually and asked themselves, is this skill working as intended, and then make adjustments accordingly.

    It feels like this patch is more about slowing down the game with a blanket nerf so that more casual players or players who can't keep up with the current pace can cope with PvP, than it is about addressing the actual issues that veteran players have with the classes. To reiterate, the powercreep should not be handled with a blanket nerf shorcut but rather by taking a tailored approach to each class. If a particular skill is overperforming, identify and tone it down. No need to turn over the games whole combat system into final fantasy 14 because thats what makes it unique.

  • Coalescence of Ruin - cooldown increase is absurd. Just nerf the damage accordingly (33%) and leave the cooldown as it is now. Hammer 1,3 and 5 nerfs are enough.