For the Love of God, Delete Mesmer Mantras!

bravan.3876 · September 17, 2019

@"shadowpass.4236" said:Here's a gallery of my matches from today:
@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" Please remove berserker amulet from PvP and nerf oneshot builds like mantra mesmer.(Or keep it in the game! I've never had more fun/an easier time farming ranked than when I've ran this build! It's literally the easiest rating I've had since release) ¯\(ツ)/¯
"Mantra builds are memes"
"They don't work against good players"
"Just react"
"Play tanky builds"
"The problem with the OP is he tends to project best possible scenarios rather than realistic scenarios." - @"apharma.3741"
"Mantras are easy to interrupt"
etc. etc. etc. I didn't die more than 3x (I died 3 times in a single match. All of the others were between 0-2 deaths.) or get less than 10 kills in 15+ matches on core berserker mantra mesmer and if you look at the leaderboards, Mur is rank 2 on mantra mesmer!
Here are some clips of me from Vallun's stream:
he couldn't "react" in time
oneshot
part 1Vallun chasing me for two minutes. He's a thief btw, a "mesmer's counter"
part 2I only died here because he interrupted my heal before I could get my mass invis off + there were 2 other people attacking me. If he didn't have his steal up in the 3v1, I would've lived and been able to break combat/oneshot someone else.
@Shao.7236You're in a few of these too
@bravan.3876 @Bigpapasmurf.5623 @ollbirtan.2915 @Leonidrex.5649 @viquing.8254 @lightstalker.1498 @kraai.7265 @yusayu.3629 @everyman.4375 @dronte.3416 @Simonoly.4352 @Justine.6351 @Xstein.2187 @"LolLookAtMyAP.8394" @Firebeard.1746 @Naxos.2503 @Henrik.7560 @Azure The Heartless.3261 @Quadox.7834

Beforehand: Pls stop tagging me in this thread, i clearly said i want to be out of this kitten, it is a waste of time talking to both sides here. But you beg for feedback on your insane high ranked Platinum 1 NA duo q games, you will get it. Nice Exalted Legend title btw, i prefer that one too over every Top25 title came out after S4. Btw i was Top 3 each Season EU and NA without wintrading ofc just never made enough games to be on lb and ofc have no shots of any of my rating (outside of lucky placements without a representative number of games), but i think that still proves everything i say right just from the start. (/s) Not that lb matters (for the topic and most other things) but there are for certain 2-3 ppl left being impressed by that right? After that said now to the topic:

The only thing worth reacting to are the Vallun clips because your screenshots prove nothing. Insane winstreaks i had on every class, even the ones i play only around average lvl and also in higher divisions and also solo. A lot of things can cause that aside from the class/ build you play, like just matchmaking things, the time you q etc. Topstats, we all know, also don't say anything. I had games i played pretty bad, still got some Topstats but in the end the team carried me. Other games i carried still had no Topstats. This counts in particular on such low rating for Mesmer oneshot builds. We already know, that Mesmer is a good noobkiller, we don't need another low Platinum prove and only screenshots don't even prove that. With other words your screenshots are useless for the discussion, 100% useless, they prove nothing about how op a build is.

Vallun clip 1: You serious? You stealthed right in front of his face and he still did nothing? Never in my life me or my 80 years old grandpa would get hit by that stealth engage. If i wouldn't see such obvious and insane predictable bursts hit in NA streams even on high ranked players all the time i would assume Vallun is checking Twitch chat that moment, but my stream watch experience says: it is like that in NA even with the NA top player (no clue why, you would assume in a land with that many Powermesmers ppl would know how to play vs them even better or at least can avoid such obvious burst). Ofc you can oneshot a lot of ppl in EU like that too, but not the decent and above player when they play serious and focused. One other reason is that because of NAs lower population and lower amount of good player you will always find at least one noob in each team you can oneshot like that even in NA Plat3/ Legend games (aside form the Top player eating obvious bursts too) and turn it into a 4v5. Means ez carry into higher ranks. In EU you have a way higher chance to get ppl in your team with less rank difference also in higher ranked games and not easy farmed like Vallun in this clip. Two obvious reasons why NA is so different to EU when it comes to viability of noobkiller builds. Very poor play from Vallun. It was a simple torch stealth right in front of his face, easy to predict and to counter and has nothing to do with the problems i see with Core Mesmer stealth stacking with PU Massinv or Chaosline in general. L2p issue on Valluns side vs a very predictable burst.

Vallun clip 2: There is clearly pre story missing. Not sure if Vallun was just about to join the fight (his Ranger still 100% hp btw vs other Ranger and oneshot Mesmer) and then decided to leave it or if he tried to disengage from the 2v2 here. In the end doesn't matter he used shadowstep back because he got, that he is out of cds and he clearly knows a Mesmer is around (you can see on minimap but he probably already knew it from before you stealthed). He also could at least hear you stealthing no matter if you used Mass Inv or Torch. The shadowstep was the right move, he should just have disengaged further until Mesmer drops out of stealth or at least used his Signet for endurance before turning around and running into your knife for no reason. Without blink rdy he would have been 100% out of danger or at least out of nearly instant Mirrorblade range to have more reaction time to the burst. Why he turned around to make it that easy for you, knowing a Mesmer in stealth is behind him, not even using Signet for endurance at least? I don't know. Death clearly avoidable, just a bad play from Vallun. Maybe he hoped for you going on his Ranger to dmg together with your teammate. Then he played Russian roulette and lost. Still has nothing to do with the build being op or not. Just bad played from Vallun.

Vallun clip 3/4: Here we reach stuff i agree with you, that is the carry from Chaosline (high passive Boonsustain vs power dmg, short blink cd, superspeed) what made it hard for Vallun to pressure you (a Core Mesmer without Chaosline would be dead here) and ability to stack stealth (you could stack for 13 secs if wanted, Mesmers who drop Mantra of Distraction what is not needed for that oneshot build and use Signet of Midnight/ Decoy instead have even more stealth + Desperate Decoy for another out of jail card what is passive).Here Vallun played well, first good move was to totally disengage from you after you used Mass Inv. He could have delayed his healuse a little bit to cover more time for when you potentially could have been in his range again (because you just used blink short time before Mass Inv.) but he is Staffthief and with Daggerstorm he can chain evades for ages, why care about one dodge, better get heal of cd sooner instead. Anyway Vallun played well and for that survived finally and you had to run for your money and you survived only by Chaosline for that long. I don't know if Vallun saw you on Minimap after you went out of Mass Inv (he could have, you were visible on minimap) and before you tried to blink burst but the way he chained dodge+Daggerstorm makes me guess that he only random dodged while focusing the other target. All in all you using only Mass Inv forced Vallun into disengaging totally (including shadowstep cd use and heal if you count that into the for distance purpose), not knowing if you will follow him or straight go to mid in stealth (maybe stacking stealth with Torch even). Made him use a dodge and long cd elite to random cover time you could inc (or 3 dodges from classes don't have Daggerstorm long duration evade) and that without you even stacking stealth. What an insane amount of cds used by Vallun to counter only 9s Mass Inv + Oneshot potential+ stealth stack potential (what you have to counter when you cannot see or hear it after disengaging that far) and there is barely room to do that better than Vallun did here and save any of these cds.

I think Builds using one defensive Traitline (Inspiration or Chaos in case of Mesmer) shouldn't have enough dmg to oneshot, i think Chaosline as a whole gives way to much (passive) sustain (+ stuff like superspeed and lower cd on blink), i think the amount of stealth a Coremesmer can stack with Mass Inv + other stealthskill is too high and PU is in general unhealthy for the game. Mantra of Pain needs to be deleted too.

With other words, it is only this exact build being broken and that not because of the oneshot combo itself, not even when done out of 3/5 secs stealth, or because of Mantras (except for one), it is because of Chaosline (in combination with still oneshot dmg) and the amount und duration of stealth ty to Mass Inv/ PU can force too many random uses of defensive cds too easy in a fight you know a Mesmer is around or can oneshot you completely out of nowhere on the first inc with no counterplay (no map awareness is no counter vs that long stealth can be stacked 100% out of ear shot and visible range on a oneshot spec). But i repeat myself here.

Most stuff you show in hope it proves your points are only l2p issues from you or the one you oneshot and 70% of the stuff you wanna get nerfed don't need a nerf. Not including your screenshot stuff that is per se totally irrelevant and doesn't prove anything.

You will not agree to anything as always, it is ok for me, i don't even need to know. No need to answer me, no need to tag me, no need to trigger me again. You are right, i am wrong, ez end of this mess. Same for Viquing we agree to disagree about Chaosline and everything else i would nerf on Mesmer. You are right, i am wrong! Let me go please.

apharma.3741 · September 17, 2019

@shadowpass.4236 said:
@apharma.3741 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:@apharma.3741
"
Why would I want to pay attention to players who aren't top 10 in NA, a region I can't play with and which plays at times I'm either in bed or at work or players that have not made a name for themselves?
That's without pointing out the poor reasoning that the top 10 is indicative of a players skill anymore, I mean you don't see any WTS, World Championship or any big competition winners there.
"
"Why would I want to pay attention to players who aren't top 10 in NA?" - Apharma"Top 10 isn't indicative of skill" - Apharma
I disagree with your assessment. The top 10 is harder to get into than you're making it seem and the same players have been
consistently
finished there regardless of team que, solo que, or duo que. Top 10
is
indicative of a player's skill. You'd see WTS, WC, or any big competition winners there if PvP was still supported by ESL or Anet. So your argument that the lack of any tournament winners from 5 years ago means that they aren't as skilled is very faulty.
The samples I picked are about as consistent as they can get. This is what you're having trouble understanding. You don't need thousands of players to be running the same build (lol? guess everything is balanced then) in order to pass judgment. Good mantra mesmer players have
consistently
placed in the top 10 since the leaderboards came out. If you can get into the top 10 with a build, it means it's generally a very strong carry.

Thanks for linking a post from 3 months ago that says exactly what I said now that top 10 on a leaderboard is not indicative of skill anymore, glad we've established I'm consistent.

You've removed the context from those statements though, it was in response to Mr Boyer saying I should watch and pay attention to players in NA who hold and play in regular tournament that are hidden from general viewership and scrutiny.

Your argument is that a guy who places consistently in top 10 is in the top 10 and then you're trying to associate a link to it being because of mantra mesmer, as far as I know there's no "evidence" being presented that his position is down to mantra mesmer. However you put a lot of stock into simply being on the leaderboard also:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Again, Mur is
currently
rank 2 on mantra mesmer and he's been in the top 10 consistently since the leaderboards came out. CJ has also been high up there and Shorts is usually on the leaderboards when he plays mantras as well. So, it's pretty clear that the build works at a high level.

Your examples are not consistent, you switch classes plenty of times. You played 21 ranked games from what I counted originally, 16 were on mesmer 3 were on engineer and 2 were on ranger which means for a quarter of your ranked games you weren't playing mantra mesmer.

No you seem to not understand, dev time is limited, they fix problem builds when they come up and when they're being actual problems so if their stats don't show that something is performing too well it won't get touched for a long time hence....you know it's coming.....wait for it....

For the

~~third~~

~~fourth~~

~~fifth~~

~~sixth~~

seventh time: "If you and Shadowfall really think these builds are so grossly overtuned play them, spread the word, get people to represent them and they will get nerfs/changes."

You need numbers of players playing the build in ranked to the level of current Holo and condi Mirage so it shows on ANet's statistics. I don't know how I can spell it out any more.

"Why would I want to pay attention to players who aren't top 10 in NA?" - Apharma"Top 10 isn't indicative of skill" - Apharma

Mur and CJ are both known as mantra mesmer players. No "evidence" comes down to the fact that you're on EU and haven't played against them. By definition, the top 10 spots on the leaderboards are hard to get and indicative of skill. There are more reasons to put stock in them than they are reasons to do otherwise.

So you're saying the fact that nearly 80% of my games played this season are on mesmer is inconsistent? What percentage would you like it to be? 100%? 110%? Would you like 200% of my games played this season on mesmer? How about placing a ban on my account, disabling me from playing any other classes just so I can be "consistent" in your eyes. Get real here. 16/21 games played on mesmer (76%!) is plenty consistent. Mur and CJ playing 120 games (not all of them are on mantra mesmer!) and placing in the top 10 since the leaderboards came out is about as consistent and large of a sample size as you'll get for a true representation of the capabilities of the build.

"This thread is my attempt to spread the word, as are the ques I've been doing these past few days on mantra mesmer. I'm not disagreeing with you on this, so you can stop repeating yourself over and over again."

So you're telling me to spread the word, yet are arguing against my attempt to spread the word. That's counterintuitive, right?

I'm saying you need to be consistent and have a large data set, that means 100% of games on only mantra mesmer and more than ~20 over the course of a few days.You even say it yourself, your examples CJ and Mur don't use mantra mesmer all the time so how are we to know that when they gain or lose rating it correlates directly to playing mantra mesmer or not? How are we to correlate increase in rank or performance to the build and not what they would normally get to without playing the build?

I'm telling you for the eighth time:

You need numbers of players playing the build in ranked to the level of current Holo and condi Mirage so it shows on ANet's statistics. I don't know how I can spell it out any more."If you and Shadowfall really think these builds are so grossly overtuned play them, spread the word, get people to represent them and they will get nerfs/changes."

It's not a hard concept to grasp. I'm not arguing against your spreading the word, I'm arguing about you misrepresenting small, inconsistent and circumstantial "evidence" of a link that is not able to stand up to scrutiny.

shadowpass.4236 · September 17, 2019

@apharma.3741 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@apharma.3741 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:@apharma.3741
"
Why would I want to pay attention to players who aren't top 10 in NA, a region I can't play with and which plays at times I'm either in bed or at work or players that have not made a name for themselves?
That's without pointing out the poor reasoning that the top 10 is indicative of a players skill anymore, I mean you don't see any WTS, World Championship or any big competition winners there.
"
"Why would I want to pay attention to players who aren't top 10 in NA?" - Apharma"Top 10 isn't indicative of skill" - Apharma
I disagree with your assessment. The top 10 is harder to get into than you're making it seem and the same players have been
consistently
finished there regardless of team que, solo que, or duo que. Top 10
is
indicative of a player's skill. You'd see WTS, WC, or any big competition winners there if PvP was still supported by ESL or Anet. So your argument that the lack of any tournament winners from 5 years ago means that they aren't as skilled is very faulty.
The samples I picked are about as consistent as they can get. This is what you're having trouble understanding. You don't need thousands of players to be running the same build (lol? guess everything is balanced then) in order to pass judgment. Good mantra mesmer players have
consistently
placed in the top 10 since the leaderboards came out. If you can get into the top 10 with a build, it means it's generally a very strong carry.