Core Power Mesmer Is Nasty Toxic Nonesense

Axl.8924 · December 9, 2019

@bravan.3876 said:
@LuneSkrawl.4601 said:
@Odik.4587 said:
@LuneSkrawl.4601 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@LuneSkrawl.4601 said:I think most employees of Guild Wars 2 play Mirage, because it has been an OP class since a long way back. Every class get's nerfed and tweaked except for Mirages. Their clone spawn is absurd, but their sustain is ridiculous as well. It's like they WANT Mirage to be the best class. If it stays this way I'll stop playing the game. Oh and the matchmaking is absolutely horrible as well nowadays.... Another confirmation Mesmer is OP: In almost every PVP ranked game you are with 4 mirages in the game. Great!

I think even mesmers counter eles don't they? even though weavers got some AE effects on their weapons its not like you got the kinda mobility mesmers had combined on core and their elites.

There is really no chance of winning as Weaver against Mirage. My recharge is way too long compared to their clone spawns and my attacks are too concentrated to attack them all together. With my herald it's easier to defeat them, but not easy in any way.

Bad

~~weavers~~

players cant win and got lost in clones. I bet you dwell somewhere in silver :joy:

whatever. If you are going to be this biased, it's not even worth a reaction to it.

Where is he biased? Mesmers, in particular Power, get hardcountered by Weaver, doesn't even matter what build, if bunker water, still bunker but with fire, or the LR build. Only a oneshot out of nowhere or on a Waever with bad awareness/ reaction time can make a Powermes win that. Condimes gets countered by at least 2 of them (not sure about the LR build, it is not played that often until now and i haven't tried it myself yet).

Is it because of aoes? i've seen some pretty big aoe fields in melee range from weavers while dodging, and since it would technically hit all illusions it would counter them hard? if that makes sense.

Burnfall.9573 · December 9, 2019

@"Lighter.5631" said:bois it's ok, we all know by history that spike meta naturally evolves in to bunker meta, because classes without spike cheese are forced to spec hard bunker.either way it will die, i'm sure these guys defending right now will enjoy the bunker meta so much as it's natural progression.

+1

may i also add this??

-perma heals, perma bunker,perma evades, perma dodges,perma condition removal, All-in-one meta bad design with perma everything-

'Hello everybody!Bringing you a fresh build for your thieving PvE needs. This build is loads of fun for fighting mobs.Through exploiting the sigil of stamina you can have infinite dodges! Hope you enjoy and please be'

bravan.3876 · December 9, 2019

@Axl.8924 said:
@bravan.3876 said:
@LuneSkrawl.4601 said:
@Odik.4587 said:
@LuneSkrawl.4601 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@LuneSkrawl.4601 said:I think most employees of Guild Wars 2 play Mirage, because it has been an OP class since a long way back. Every class get's nerfed and tweaked except for Mirages. Their clone spawn is absurd, but their sustain is ridiculous as well. It's like they WANT Mirage to be the best class. If it stays this way I'll stop playing the game. Oh and the matchmaking is absolutely horrible as well nowadays.... Another confirmation Mesmer is OP: In almost every PVP ranked game you are with 4 mirages in the game. Great!

I think even mesmers counter eles don't they? even though weavers got some AE effects on their weapons its not like you got the kinda mobility mesmers had combined on core and their elites.

There is really no chance of winning as Weaver against Mirage. My recharge is way too long compared to their clone spawns and my attacks are too concentrated to attack them all together. With my herald it's easier to defeat them, but not easy in any way.

Bad

~~weavers~~

players cant win and got lost in clones. I bet you dwell somewhere in silver :joy:

whatever. If you are going to be this biased, it's not even worth a reaction to it.

Where is he biased? Mesmers, in particular Power, get hardcountered by Weaver, doesn't even matter what build, if bunker water, still bunker but with fire, or the LR build. Only a oneshot out of nowhere or on a Waever with bad awareness/ reaction time can make a Powermes win that. Condimes gets countered by at least 2 of them (not sure about the LR build, it is not played that often until now and i haven't tried it myself yet).

Is it because of aoes? i've seen some pretty big aoe fields in melee range from weavers while dodging, and since it would technically hit all illusions it would counter them hard? if that makes sense.

Mostly because Weavers can just outsustain Powermes hard, as said the only way to die for a Weaver to a Powermes is to a build that has oneshot dmg and hit it with enough crit luck to instantly kill the Weaver otherwise he will just resustain from everything the Powermes throws at him and that hits inbetween the 10000 dodges. The Weaver on the other side still has enough dmg to kill the Mesmer (and ofc also clones) when hitting him only few times. A Mes can just kite away but then has even less pressure. A Mesmer is more or less outsustained and outdamaged by a Weaver, only a very big skill difference or as said a lucky burst (power or condi) a Weaver has no chance to resustain from will end that fight any soon for the Mesmer. Aoe for easy clone cleave and not being able to lock down (f3 on power or pistol 5 on condi) the Weaver thanks to stunbreak dodges/ stability are ofc also relevant.

Leonidrex.5649 · December 9, 2019

@Lighter.5631 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@Lighter.5631 said:
bois it's ok, we all know by history that spike meta naturally evolves in to bunker meta, because classes without spike cheese are forced to spec hard bunker.either way it will die, i'm sure these guys defending right now will enjoy the bunker meta so much as it's natural progression.

Bunker meta exists already, you have prot holo, weavers and FB as unkillable blobs, and revs roaming. thats it.

1/3 classes playing semi tanky spec! wow must be bunker meta! you are funny dude, go check the definition of meta, bye bye don't see again.

yes 1/3 of the classes play bunker meta. the other 2/3 of the classes are garbage. Read what meta means.

Leonidrex.5649 · December 9, 2019

@bravan.3876 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@bravan.3876 said:
@LuneSkrawl.4601 said:
@Odik.4587 said:
@LuneSkrawl.4601 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@LuneSkrawl.4601 said:I think most employees of Guild Wars 2 play Mirage, because it has been an OP class since a long way back. Every class get's nerfed and tweaked except for Mirages. Their clone spawn is absurd, but their sustain is ridiculous as well. It's like they WANT Mirage to be the best class. If it stays this way I'll stop playing the game. Oh and the matchmaking is absolutely horrible as well nowadays.... Another confirmation Mesmer is OP: In almost every PVP ranked game you are with 4 mirages in the game. Great!

I think even mesmers counter eles don't they? even though weavers got some AE effects on their weapons its not like you got the kinda mobility mesmers had combined on core and their elites.

There is really no chance of winning as Weaver against Mirage. My recharge is way too long compared to their clone spawns and my attacks are too concentrated to attack them all together. With my herald it's easier to defeat them, but not easy in any way.

Bad

~~weavers~~

players cant win and got lost in clones. I bet you dwell somewhere in silver :joy:

whatever. If you are going to be this biased, it's not even worth a reaction to it.

Where is he biased? Mesmers, in particular Power, get hardcountered by Weaver, doesn't even matter what build, if bunker water, still bunker but with fire, or the LR build. Only a oneshot out of nowhere or on a Waever with bad awareness/ reaction time can make a Powermes win that. Condimes gets countered by at least 2 of them (not sure about the LR build, it is not played that often until now and i haven't tried it myself yet).

Is it because of aoes? i've seen some pretty big aoe fields in melee range from weavers while dodging, and since it would technically hit all illusions it would counter them hard? if that makes sense.

Mostly because Weavers can just outsustain Powermes hard, as said the only way to die for a Weaver to a Powermes is to a build that has oneshot dmg and hit it with enough crit luck to instantly kill the Weaver otherwise he will just resustain from everything the Powermes throws at him and that hits inbetween the 10000 dodges. The Weaver on the other side still has enough dmg to kill the Mesmer (and ofc also clones) when hitting him only few times. A Mes can just kite away but then has even less pressure. A Mesmer is more or less outsustained and outdamaged by a Weaver, only a very big skill difference or as said a lucky burst (power or condi) a Weaver has no chance to resustain from will end that fight any soon for the Mesmer. Aoe for easy clone cleave and not being able to lock down (f3 on power or pistol 5 on condi) the Weaver thanks to stunbreak dodges/ stability are ofc also relevant.

You just summed up every powermes matchup. 1shot or fuck off :D@Axl.8924condi mes autoloses to weaver too, you can fight for about 15s. maybe 20, then you have to leave. you lose the node, burn almost no cooldowns from weaver. and have to leave.At no point weaver is in danger of dying, while if you fuck up can actually die.You have slightly more mobility so what you can do is go to oposite node, and if you knew the matchup you could MAAAAAAYBE take portal, to be in 2 places at once once 1-2min. But overall its nowin matchup for mes.

Azure The Heartless.3261 · December 9, 2019

Couple things

@"Lighter.5631" said:bois it's ok, we all know by history that spike meta naturally evolves in to bunker meta, because classes without spike cheese are forced to spec hard bunker.either way it will die, i'm sure these guys defending right now will enjoy the bunker meta so much as it's natural progression.

See now, here's the thing. The existence of a strong spike class doesn't necessarily mean the advent of bunker meta. People are generally just as eager to play spike classes as they are to play unkillable ones. What matters is what's available. Remember, chronobunker and scrapper leapt into relevance the moment they were empowered to be practically unkillable 1v1. It wasn't really in response to any particular gank spec.

That being said, it's important that we not allow unkillable builds as much as we disallow oneshots that don't give you a chance to react.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:Ouchies :cry:
https://streamable.com/v6ksk

First of all, you could hear mes stealth.Sec of all he whiffed and you should punishThird of all, did you srsl follow up his combo with ambush?

I agree with Leonidrex on this one. after a while you get paranoid about hearing that faint chiming noise, just like you do about hearing black powder being dropped.And, in this case, mirror blade appeared first. That burst was sloppy.

That being said, what you mentioned later is also true.Trevor proved earlier that the burst, timed properly, can erase a class, but whether that is due more to timing than it is the classes choice of amulet or some other external factor remains to be seen.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
THE REST WILL BE UP TO MY REACTION TIME AND PING I SUPPOSE.

I really want to stress the point behind the bolded.^ I think that's a good portion of the problems we have happening. A good 50% of what is making this so toxic, actually isn't even related to the class design/patching.

I''m more in agreement with this. I think this was and remains the most balanced view of this right now.I personally find myself having enough time to respond to mes burst more often than not, but that is probably largely due to the fact that my ping very rarely goes above 30ms. If something can be done for players that probably see connection delays upwards of 100ms, that would be nice.

I need more data on exactly what core power mes oneshots, whether that oneshot potential is hard countered by using a traitline with damage gating or a tougher amulet, and whether there is a way to make it slightly more telegraphed without making it useless. I also did some mock matches with Mort in the arena on my War (and probably my zerker thief, though that was prob vs. a condi build.) If I was reasonably aware which direction he was coming from I was able to evade most of the damage. If I failed that, taking Defy Pain saved me.

I see the frustration, but I'm not willing to agree fully with damage nerfing it just yet personally. I don't think leaving this in is specifically going to lead to bunker meta. It would be better if there was a way to modify the burst specifically to remove the instances where it can completely remove the health of someone not playing full glass with no telegraph, if such exist. Still open to changing my mind on that though..

(And I consider sound effects from The Prestige/Mass Invisibility / Mirror blade / Being stunned one second before nuke to all be suitable telegraphs. Anything outside of that or that gets around that should be adjusted.)

Leonidrex.5649 · December 9, 2019

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:Couple things
@"Lighter.5631" said:
bois it's ok, we all know by history that
spike meta naturally evolves in to bunker meta
, because classes without spike cheese are forced to spec hard bunker.either way it will die, i'm sure these guys defending right now will enjoy the bunker meta so much as it's natural progression.

See now, here's the thing. The existence of a strong spike class doesn't necessarily mean the advent of bunker meta. People are generally just as eager to play spike classes as they are to play unkillable ones. What matters is what's available. Remember, chronobunker and scrapper leapt into relevance the moment they were empowered to be practically unkillable 1v1. It wasn't really in response to any particular gank spec.

That being said, it's important that we not allow unkillable builds as much as we disallow oneshots that don't give you a chance to react.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:Ouchies :cry:
https://streamable.com/v6ksk

First of all, you could hear mes stealth.Sec of all he whiffed and you should punishThird of all, did you srsl follow up his combo with ambush?

I agree with Leonidrex on this one. after a while you get paranoid about hearing that faint chiming noise, just like you do about hearing black powder being dropped.And, in this case, mirror blade appeared first. That burst was sloppy.

That being said, what you mentioned later is also true.Trevor proved earlier that the burst, timed properly, can erase a class, but whether that is due more to timing than it is the classes choice of amulet or some other external factor remains to be seen.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
THE REST WILL BE UP TO MY REACTION TIME AND PING I SUPPOSE.

I really want to stress the point behind the bolded.^ I think that's a good portion of the problems we have happening. A good 50% of what is making this so toxic, actually isn't even related to the class design/patching.

I''m more in agreement with this. I think this was and remains the most balanced view of this right now.I personally find myself having enough time to respond to mes burst more often than not, but that is probably largely due to the fact that my ping very rarely goes above 30ms.

I need more data on exactly

what core power mes oneshots, whether that oneshot potential is hard countered by using a traitline with damage gating or a tougher amulet, and whether there is a way to make it slightly more telegraphed without making it useless

. I also did some mock matches with Mort in the arena on my War (and probably my zerker thief, though that was prob vs. a condi build.) If I was reasonably aware which direction he was coming from I was able to evade most of the damage. If I failed that, taking Defy Pain saved me.

I see the frustration, but I'm not willing to agree fully with damage nerfing it just yet personally. I don't think leaving this in is specifically going to lead to bunker meta. It would be better if there was a way to modify the burst specifically to remove the instances where it can completely remove the health of someone not playing full glass, if such exist.

All this comes down to mesmer design of having NO cast time on alot of abilities, and 1 ability that has casttime gets hidden in stealth.Nerfing damage is a no go becouse powermesmer is garbage already, removing Mental Anguish from the game would be propably for the best.If that is not good enuf I would also remove MoP from the game and introduce new utilities for mesmer.When good players play against this build they dont get 1shoted all that often, almost every single class has ways to avoid it. or straight up facetank the damage.

Just think about it. GLASS CANNON, build lands 5-6 abilities chained together, to kill you.Immagine how fucking bad the damage will be on normal power mesmer. Just think about it.

Axl.8924 · December 9, 2019

Sounds kinda nuts if mes has impossible chance to win vs weaver. I'm no a fan of classes hardcountering so hard you have no chance at all.

mortrialus.3062 · December 9, 2019

@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:I am seriously getting tired of builds that can stealth in at you from 4000 some range and instantly drop your health from 100% to 0% with no tells.
It's a bad design that makes for a bad game that isn't fun to play.
~ Edit
I'm gonna paste this into the OP because I should have written this here to begin with:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Just want to make this post to really elaborate on quite exactly what attributes are stacking up here, to make this build so toxic:
Nuclear damage output.
This is normally fine imo on glass cannon designed specs. But it begins to get out of control here for the following reasons.
Too many instant cast pre-charged skills.
It can front load enough damage to drop any build instantly. Again, this is normally not that big of a deal in most situations, when a build provides tells so that it can be counter played. But this leads to the next reason of what makes this so toxic.
Too much stealth uptime paired with their mobility.
Lately these Mesmers have enough stealth to approach you from blind spots in the map where you are unable to see them visually on the screen, or even their class icon on the mini map. Don't believe me? Watch that video that was posted. This means that you have no ability whatsoever, to counter play the Mesmer's position or to interpret where he is or where he is going. Now your survival vs. the Mesmer burst is entirely dependent upon raw reflex, for when it attacks you, and if you have some kind of an instant invuln or instant mobility stun break with an evade, such as Roll For Initiative. This takes us to the following point to be made, which is the deepest and most toxic part about all of this.
There are no tells when a good Mesmer player is wielding this build.
Even middle tiered players can sort of "no tell" blow you up a fraction of a second with this build, but the good Mesmers out there, seriously instantly kill you by perfectly timing all of the instants & precharges, and landing them all simultaneously for a visual representation on-screen of seeing your health go from 100% to 0% instantly. There is no counter play to this. By the time any visual graphics appear or you hear any noises at all, you're already dead.
Subsequently, it is important to compare Core Power Mesmer to other notorious 1HKO builds
-> Even Deadeyes & Soulbeasts provide warning of inc burst when a DE marks a target or a Soulbeast uses Sic Em. A player can see these things on their UI, as a warning that they are being focused. The Mesmer on the other hand, delivers no such warning. The DE & Soulbeast also must approach a general vicinity before engaging in stealth play. Players can see this happening, and are ready to engage the situation. They know the DE or Soulbeast is close, they are being marked or seeing Sic Em on UI, they know if they are being targeted. The stealth's are also short on DE & Soulbeast to where players can intuitively gauge how long the DE or Soulbeast will be in stealth and if he is about to land a burst or how far he could move during that short time. The Power Mesmer on the other hand, yeah reread the points made in 3. Furthermore, the DEs & Soulbeasts don't actually "1shot" anything. The damage may lay down quickly, you may see your health drop from 100% to 75% to 50% to 25% to 0% from a Rapid Fire that takes 2 and a half seconds to complete, or you may see a 100% to 50% o 0% with a Maul leading into Worldy Impact that takes roughly 2s to complete even with quickness. You may see your health drop from 100% to 25% from a Death's Judgement, and then a DE follows up with some other attack to finish the job, requiring a good 2s to complete. <- All of this as annoying as it is, requires like 2s at the minimum to actually do, which is allowing counter play. But the Mesmer? Nah, all that damage lands in the fraction of a millisecond right out of stealth, especially if a person has a good macro set. Even the approach of the DEs & the Soulbeasts are rather obvious and allow players to position themselves to engage them. But the Mesmer? Nah you can't see it or interpret where it is at all. The final point to be made is that: DEs and Soulbeasts are nailing people with projectiles, which can be LOSed. But the Mesmer? That's mostly all melee functioned & ground targeted damage that HIT THROUGH WALLS.
I don't know what else to say. The implementation of this Core Power Mesmer lately, feels like I was eating at a nice dinner and enjoying my meal, then someone tossed a nasty leaky dirty diaper up on my table, and then I had to get up and leave. For real though. I've put up with a lot of bad metas in this game over the years, but there is something extra
bad feeling
about this no-tell Mesmer stealth across the map and 1HKO you stuff. Like actual instant 1HKO. Not like DEs or Soulbeasts that just deal a lot of damage really fast. No, this is an actual quite literal "instant 1HKO right out of stealth"

~ 2nd edit

And this meme deserves to be here too

How about we just nerf stealth on mesmers just like we did for the thief class?If 4 explosions of illusions are a problem and hitting that hard with mind stab cand o 20k well if we make stealth last 2 secs or something and then stealth falls off as soon as mesmer does anything they won't be so overpowered and maybe we might not need to touch their damage or maybe I dunno

Stealth should never last too long anyways. I still remember when perma stealth thief was wreaking havoc in WVW.

It's not 4 explosions of illusions, actually.

The typical instant kill mesmer burst you're seeing is just a one clone shatter plus the mesmer who counts as a clone themselves. That's it. I've seen just the 1 Clone Mind Wrack portion of the burst hit for 14k. It typically hits for 9-12k.

People keep pointing fingers at everything except what is actually killing people. We can talk about the stealth, and the multicasting. But 1 Clone Shatters were never supposed to be doing this level of damage to being with and are supposed to be something of a wasted opportunity in their own way. If we were talking actual 3 clones+Mesmer shatters the set up required for that actually probably does deserve to be something of an exodia execute style win condition, but that's not what is going on here. Mirror Blade into Mind Wrack can truck people as soon as the Mirror Blade makes its clone.

Like we can and should look at the multicasting with Mantra of Pain, Mind Wrack, and the very high stealth uptime with the Chaos Traitline (Though in my opinion mesmers should typically be very high stealth as part of their design). But I think the change that makes the most sense is to hit the damage on Mind Wrack with only 1x Clone and trimming might off mantra of distraction.

I dont get it, burst and combos is the only thing keeping mesmer viable, whats the point of nerfing the only thing mesmer really has?it has no sustain damage, healing so bad it dies to retaliation, cleanses nonexistant.garbo mobility thats so bad you are gatekept into specific builds.

OH and PS if you increase top end DPS people will use utility that spawns 2 clones to instagib.IF you dont increase top end dps mesmer will be so garbage that I might as well play thief blindfolded becouse ill have better resoults.

@bravan.3876 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:I am seriously getting tired of builds that can stealth in at you from 4000 some range and instantly drop your health from 100% to 0% with no tells.
It's a bad design that makes for a bad game that isn't fun to play.
~ Edit
I'm gonna paste this into the OP because I should have written this here to begin with:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Just want to make this post to really elaborate on quite exactly what attributes are stacking up here, to make this build so toxic:
Nuclear damage output.
This is normally fine imo on glass cannon designed specs. But it begins to get out of control here for the following reasons.
Too many instant cast pre-charged skills.
It can front load enough damage to drop any build instantly. Again, this is normally not that big of a deal in most situations, when a build provides tells so that it can be counter played. But this leads to the next reason of what makes this so toxic.
Too much stealth uptime paired with their mobility.
Lately these Mesmers have enough stealth to approach you from blind spots in the map where you are unable to see them visually on the screen, or even their class icon on the mini map. Don't believe me? Watch that video that was posted. This means that you have no ability whatsoever, to counter play the Mesmer's position or to interpret where he is or where he is going. Now your survival vs. the Mesmer burst is entirely dependent upon raw reflex, for when it attacks you, and if you have some kind of an instant invuln or instant mobility stun break with an evade, such as Roll For Initiative. This takes us to the following point to be made, which is the deepest and most toxic part about all of this.
There are no tells when a good Mesmer player is wielding this build.
Even middle tiered players can sort of "no tell" blow you up a fraction of a second with this build, but the good Mesmers out there, seriously instantly kill you by perfectly timing all of the instants & precharges, and landing them all simultaneously for a visual representation on-screen of seeing your health go from 100% to 0% instantly. There is no counter play to this. By the time any visual graphics appear or you hear any noises at all, you're already dead.
Subsequently, it is important to compare Core Power Mesmer to other notorious 1HKO builds
-> Even Deadeyes & Soulbeasts provide warning of inc burst when a DE marks a target or a Soulbeast uses Sic Em. A player can see these things on their UI, as a warning that they are being focused. The Mesmer on the other hand, delivers no such warning. The DE & Soulbeast also must approach a general vicinity before engaging in stealth play. Players can see this happening, and are ready to engage the situation. They know the DE or Soulbeast is close, they are being marked or seeing Sic Em on UI, they know if they are being targeted. The stealth's are also short on DE & Soulbeast to where players can intuitively gauge how long the DE or Soulbeast will be in stealth and if he is about to land a burst or how far he could move during that short time. The Power Mesmer on the other hand, yeah reread the points made in 3. Furthermore, the DEs & Soulbeasts don't actually "1shot" anything. The damage may lay down quickly, you may see your health drop from 100% to 75% to 50% to 25% to 0% from a Rapid Fire that takes 2 and a half seconds to complete, or you may see a 100% to 50% o 0% with a Maul leading into Worldy Impact that takes roughly 2s to complete even with quickness. You may see your health drop from 100% to 25% from a Death's Judgement, and then a DE follows up with some other attack to finish the job, requiring a good 2s to complete. <- All of this as annoying as it is, requires like 2s at the minimum to actually do, which is allowing counter play. But the Mesmer? Nah, all that damage lands in the fraction of a millisecond right out of stealth, especially if a person has a good macro set. Even the approach of the DEs & the Soulbeasts are rather obvious and allow players to position themselves to engage them. But the Mesmer? Nah you can't see it or interpret where it is at all. The final point to be made is that: DEs and Soulbeasts are nailing people with projectiles, which can be LOSed. But the Mesmer? That's mostly all melee functioned & ground targeted damage that HIT THROUGH WALLS.
I don't know what else to say. The implementation of this Core Power Mesmer lately, feels like I was eating at a nice dinner and enjoying my meal, then someone tossed a nasty leaky dirty diaper up on my table, and then I had to get up and leave. For real though. I've put up with a lot of bad metas in this game over the years, but there is something extra
bad feeling
about this no-tell Mesmer stealth across the map and 1HKO you stuff. Like actual instant 1HKO. Not like DEs or Soulbeasts that just deal a lot of damage really fast. No, this is an actual quite literal "instant 1HKO right out of stealth"

~ 2nd edit

And this meme deserves to be here too

How about we just nerf stealth on mesmers just like we did for the thief class?If 4 explosions of illusions are a problem and hitting that hard with mind stab cand o 20k well if we make stealth last 2 secs or something and then stealth falls off as soon as mesmer does anything they won't be so overpowered and maybe we might not need to touch their damage or maybe I dunno

Stealth should never last too long anyways. I still remember when perma stealth thief was wreaking havoc in WVW.

It's not 4 explosions of illusions, actually.

The typical instant kill mesmer burst you're seeing is just a one clone shatter plus the mesmer who counts as a clone themselves. That's it. I've seen just the 1 Clone Mind Wrack portion of the burst hit for 14k. It typically hits for 9-12k.

People keep pointing fingers at everything except what is actually killing people. We can talk about the stealth, and the multicasting. But 1 Clone Shatters were never supposed to be doing this level of damage to being with and are supposed to be something of a wasted opportunity in their own way. If we were talking actual 3 clones+Mesmer shatters the set up required for that actually probably does deserve to be something of an exodia execute style win condition, but that's not what is going on here. Mirror Blade into Mind Wrack can truck people as soon as the Mirror Blade makes its clone.

Like we can and should look at the multicasting with Mantra of Pain, Mind Wrack, and the very high stealth uptime with the Chaos Traitline (Though in my opinion mesmers should typically be very high stealth as part of their design). But I think the change that makes the most sense is to hit the damage on Mind Wrack with only 1x Clone and trimming might off mantra of distraction.

I hate those no clone 6k+ MW or up to 14k with one clone MW too, don't get me wrong, but they only do that much dmg when the Mesmer stacks every passive dmg multiplier he can find in the game. Just remove passive dmg mulitplier from traits, its a stupid, uncreative and lazy traitdesign doesn't add any skill ceiling anyway. Let only runes and sigils add small passive dmg boni. Or at least put different passive dmg traits in the same place so you have to choose between them, as Viquing suggested as a first step until Anet has some new ideas for a better traitdesign can replace that stuff. Superiority Complex also seems a bit bugged or simply overperforming, some crits i got hit by (not only from MW) run riot here and there. If you nerf the shatters, then every Mesmer build not using stacked dmg traits and run the more skillbased and active traitalternatives will do zero dmg, with other words we would punish the builds running more skilled traits for no reason. That is exactly the best way to kill skillbased Mesmer builds. Compared to the power creep we have shatters base dmg is already not great. Without stacked dmg traits/ rune they do less dmg per clone than most classes autoattacks.

As for the PU core stealthspam oneshot build just rework MoP into a non dmg boonremove mantra and the build maybe is already dead anyway. Used or not, PU still should get reworked into a less unhealthy mechanic too. For example remove the steathduration and higher boonduration in return (only defensive boons, delete the might from all grandmaster traits in Chaos).

No clue why we have so many so long threads about a build that is so obviously not skillbased and unhealthy from its playstyle (no matter how viable it is in conquest) but also so easy to fix...

It's not about kicking mesmer for the sake of mesmer. On a fundamental philosophical level I believe no build should be capable of killing builds in under 4 seconds, let alone a fraction of a second at the start of the fight. This includes soulbeasts, thieves, warriors, and Deadeye's the later two should also revolve around Exodia style win condition play. And I also philosophically believe instant cast damage, even condition damage is unhealthy for the game. Like thieves loading steal up 8k poison damage and enough confusion stacks to do 1k on skill use. It's not healthy for the game. You'll find I'm very consistent about that.

I also think certain skills that are too high impact and literally impossible to see coming, in particular Prime Light Beam, shouldn't be castable stealthed either and should Reveal at the beginning of the cast just like Death's Judgement.

On the opposite end of the spectrum I think builds that can sustain serious combat for straight up minutes at a time also should never exist and it's a big part of why I found post rework Scrapper so absolutely offensive and why I am still unhappy with Holosmith's capacity to reset a fight with T oss Elixir S and Healing Turret's overtuned burst healing potential. No build should be sustaining over 60 of combat without either having to completely flee and abandon the point or take jumping puzzles or else die.

Regarding the modifiers I don't think they're that passive or that lazy. Providing a damage boost to disabled opponents and a damage boost against players who aren't actively using skills are cool insentives that feel very mesmery in design.

I've said before I want to see power mesmers damage spread out, become more sustained, maybe look at improving sword offhand Phantasm's capacity to hit and DPS a target down, and condition mesmers damage condensed more focused on setting up and landing skill shots than clone auto attacks.

When you look at what mesmer should be physically capable of in game, nearly instantly creating a clone and then hitting with a 14k one clone Mind Wrack just shouldn't be one of them.

Leonidrex.5649 · December 9, 2019

@Axl.8924 said:Sounds kinda nuts if mes has impossible chance to win vs weaver. I'm no a fan of classes hardcountering so hard you have no chance at all.

Mes has alot of unwinnable matchupsThief of any kind.WeaverProt holo.same old same old, fight for 15s then you have to leave.Meanwhile poor warriors complain about condi mes beating them to death.

Axl.8924 · December 9, 2019

Warrs get a lot of hard fights, Just imagine how a warr must feel when he is running to fight some guardian and gets all his boons melted and completely disolved or getting disolved in WVW by groups of scourges.

Leonidrex.5649 · December 9, 2019

@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:I am seriously getting tired of builds that can stealth in at you from 4000 some range and instantly drop your health from 100% to 0% with no tells.
It's a bad design that makes for a bad game that isn't fun to play.
~ Edit
I'm gonna paste this into the OP because I should have written this here to begin with:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Just want to make this post to really elaborate on quite exactly what attributes are stacking up here, to make this build so toxic:
Nuclear damage output.
This is normally fine imo on glass cannon designed specs. But it begins to get out of control here for the following reasons.
Too many instant cast pre-charged skills.
It can front load enough damage to drop any build instantly. Again, this is normally not that big of a deal in most situations, when a build provides tells so that it can be counter played. But this leads to the next reason of what makes this so toxic.
Too much stealth uptime paired with their mobility.
Lately these Mesmers have enough stealth to approach you from blind spots in the map where you are unable to see them visually on the screen, or even their class icon on the mini map. Don't believe me? Watch that video that was posted. This means that you have no ability whatsoever, to counter play the Mesmer's position or to interpret where he is or where he is going. Now your survival vs. the Mesmer burst is entirely dependent upon raw reflex, for when it attacks you, and if you have some kind of an instant invuln or instant mobility stun break with an evade, such as Roll For Initiative. This takes us to the following point to be made, which is the deepest and most toxic part about all of this.
There are no tells when a good Mesmer player is wielding this build.
Even middle tiered players can sort of "no tell" blow you up a fraction of a second with this build, but the good Mesmers out there, seriously instantly kill you by perfectly timing all of the instants & precharges, and landing them all simultaneously for a visual representation on-screen of seeing your health go from 100% to 0% instantly. There is no counter play to this. By the time any visual graphics appear or you hear any noises at all, you're already dead.
Subsequently, it is important to compare Core Power Mesmer to other notorious 1HKO builds
-> Even Deadeyes & Soulbeasts provide warning of inc burst when a DE marks a target or a Soulbeast uses Sic Em. A player can see these things on their UI, as a warning that they are being focused. The Mesmer on the other hand, delivers no such warning. The DE & Soulbeast also must approach a general vicinity before engaging in stealth play. Players can see this happening, and are ready to engage the situation. They know the DE or Soulbeast is close, they are being marked or seeing Sic Em on UI, they know if they are being targeted. The stealth's are also short on DE & Soulbeast to where players can intuitively gauge how long the DE or Soulbeast will be in stealth and if he is about to land a burst or how far he could move during that short time. The Power Mesmer on the other hand, yeah reread the points made in 3. Furthermore, the DEs & Soulbeasts don't actually "1shot" anything. The damage may lay down quickly, you may see your health drop from 100% to 75% to 50% to 25% to 0% from a Rapid Fire that takes 2 and a half seconds to complete, or you may see a 100% to 50% o 0% with a Maul leading into Worldy Impact that takes roughly 2s to complete even with quickness. You may see your health drop from 100% to 25% from a Death's Judgement, and then a DE follows up with some other attack to finish the job, requiring a good 2s to complete. <- All of this as annoying as it is, requires like 2s at the minimum to actually do, which is allowing counter play. But the Mesmer? Nah, all that damage lands in the fraction of a millisecond right out of stealth, especially if a person has a good macro set. Even the approach of the DEs & the Soulbeasts are rather obvious and allow players to position themselves to engage them. But the Mesmer? Nah you can't see it or interpret where it is at all. The final point to be made is that: DEs and Soulbeasts are nailing people with projectiles, which can be LOSed. But the Mesmer? That's mostly all melee functioned & ground targeted damage that HIT THROUGH WALLS.
I don't know what else to say. The implementation of this Core Power Mesmer lately, feels like I was eating at a nice dinner and enjoying my meal, then someone tossed a nasty leaky dirty diaper up on my table, and then I had to get up and leave. For real though. I've put up with a lot of bad metas in this game over the years, but there is something extra
bad feeling
about this no-tell Mesmer stealth across the map and 1HKO you stuff. Like actual instant 1HKO. Not like DEs or Soulbeasts that just deal a lot of damage really fast. No, this is an actual quite literal "instant 1HKO right out of stealth"