Let's Talk About WvW Balance - Page 8 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Let's Talk About WvW Balance

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  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ThomasC.1056 said:

    @Coinhead.7591 said:
    Is removing come stat combinations from gear a possibility? Personally I wouldn't mind to see minstrel gear gone :)

    To be honest, I think they should just put everyone in exotic celestial gear with superior divinity runes, for a 1 week to 1 month long trial. At first, I thought it as a joke, but I'm considering more and more seriously that it could be useful.

    You could see whether the stat choice is that impactful or not, and above all, you could see what part of the issues come from the stat, and what part comes from the skills/traits.

    Last but not least, you could also see whether a lower DPS/higher sustain actually increases the TTK, to what extent, and whether it's actually better/funnier.

    Or we could just use PvP style stat selection in a PvP mode, and make it fair on everyone regardless of PvE incomes.

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], [RaW][TACO] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:

    @ThomasC.1056 said:

    @Coinhead.7591 said:
    Is removing come stat combinations from gear a possibility? Personally I wouldn't mind to see minstrel gear gone :)

    To be honest, I think they should just put everyone in exotic celestial gear with superior divinity runes, for a 1 week to 1 month long trial. At first, I thought it as a joke, but I'm considering more and more seriously that it could be useful.

    You could see whether the stat choice is that impactful or not, and above all, you could see what part of the issues come from the stat, and what part comes from the skills/traits.

    Last but not least, you could also see whether a lower DPS/higher sustain actually increases the TTK, to what extent, and whether it's actually better/funnier.

    Or we could just use PvP style stat selection in a PvP mode, and make it fair on everyone regardless of PvE incomes.

    Must be new here in the WvW section :p

    Ammy system would kill build diversity. PvP has its own problems and special toxicity. To bring that into a grander scale would cause more issues on top of killing diversity.

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
    twitch.tv/TRMC
    Lover of Jumping puzzles, Squirrels, WvW, and Taimi
    Co-Leader of SOmething inAPpropriate {SOAP}

  • ThomasC.1056ThomasC.1056 Member ✭✭✭

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:

    @ThomasC.1056 said:

    @Coinhead.7591 said:
    Is removing come stat combinations from gear a possibility? Personally I wouldn't mind to see minstrel gear gone :)

    To be honest, I think they should just put everyone in exotic celestial gear with superior divinity runes, for a 1 week to 1 month long trial. At first, I thought it as a joke, but I'm considering more and more seriously that it could be useful.

    You could see whether the stat choice is that impactful or not, and above all, you could see what part of the issues come from the stat, and what part comes from the skills/traits.

    Last but not least, you could also see whether a lower DPS/higher sustain actually increases the TTK, to what extent, and whether it's actually better/funnier.

    Or we could just use PvP style stat selection in a PvP mode, and make it fair on everyone regardless of PvE incomes.

    Must be new here in the WvW section :p

    Ammy system would kill build diversity. PvP has its own problems and special toxicity. To bring that into a grander scale would cause more issues on top of killing diversity.

    I agree. My suggestion is only a week-test, and specifically with celestial to equalize the stats of everyone, and see what comes from the stats, and what comes from the rest (passive procs, etc.), in the scope of the big balance rework that's in progress.

    Look at that—you broke Scruffy's sarcasm meters. ~ Taimi.

  • KeyOrion.9506KeyOrion.9506 Member ✭✭✭

    Institute Boon Sickness. Stripping don't cut it, if they hit a single skill, or strike a single target, and they got every boon back on themselves again. Or worse yet, their in a zerg, and split into 5 man squads within the zerg, and a single player in that squad hits a skill and everybody in the party has instant boons, and then the next guy in squad hits a skill and extends the boons time....seriously boon up time should never be 100% for any reason.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yeah since they will never fix boons they should get some new conditions, one like torment, but instead of damaging a player when they move it reduces duration on all current boons on the player, or a reverse confusion which has the dot(reduce duration on boon) but also on skill activation. :dizzy:

    ^ Another derailing post - Anet
    Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs - Thieves
    A skill overpowered? just nerf their dodge, balanced. - Anet
    There's no power creep you just don't recognize more people hitting you - Flat Earther

  • Svarty.8019Svarty.8019 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    Yeah since they will never fix boons they should get some new conditions, one like torment, but instead of damaging a player when they move it reduces duration on all current boons on the player, or a reverse confusion which has the dot(reduce duration on boon) but also on skill activation. :dizzy:

    Yes, we need more complexity, the game is far too simple. /s

    Thief OP? Better nerf Scourge ... again.
    Hashtag BlameMcLain

  • Now at the reset, you dont need to balance wvw and pvp seperately, because you can do the same for both, because if you have more players fight together, the game is unplayable.

  • Honestly, either nerf elite specializations and their boon output or put in damage and boon caps. Damage and sustain as a whole is ridiculously out of control and has been causing the game to bleed players for years.> @Bish.8627 said:

    I would really like of block actually blocked, seems every profession can bypass it and even CC it now

    Yes, there's also way too many AoEs or skills that bypass blocks, and not just the condition stuff either. It's like what is even the point of blocking an attack?

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bish.8627 said:
    I would really like of block actually blocked, seems every profession can bypass it and even CC it now

    Can you offer some more context here? Cause i constantly see "blocked!" in blobs. And some skills (eg necro warhorn 5, wail of doom) have had an unblockable effect for a long time (in the aforementioned case, since 6/2013).

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Not to defend anet for their many years of neglect... but they already talked more about the balancing in the wvw stream they had a few weeks ago, plus it's mentioned again in the looking ahead post.

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/looking-ahead-to-the-new-year/

    Cal Cohen, Game Designer—Competitive Update
    “The big thing we have coming down the line for both PvP and WvW is a major balance update. We’ve talked a little about it on the forums and on the WvW weekly stream, but to reiterate: our main goal is to reevaluate the desired power level for competitive game modes. We’re reviewing every skill and trait in the game to bring them more in line with our goals. This update will be a large step in the direction we want to move, but there will certainly be more work that follows and more problems to address. This balance update is currently targeted for Q1 of 2020, assuming everything goes according to plan.

    On the PvP side of things, we’ve made some great progress with Swiss tournaments. We’re looking at running a beta event to test the system at a larger scale. Players who participate in Swiss tournaments during the event will earn a unique title. The beta is targeted for early next year, and the full release will follow after any outstanding bugs are squashed.

    For WvW, we’re planning to address some of the problems introduced by the warclaw, namely its overall movement speed and elusiveness via evades. We’ll be removing the increased movement speed in owned territory and replacing it with a new Mastery that we’re still working out. We’ll also be reducing the warclaw’s endurance to give players more opportunities to chase it down and force a dismount.”

    ^ Another derailing post - Anet
    Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs - Thieves
    A skill overpowered? just nerf their dodge, balanced. - Anet
    There's no power creep you just don't recognize more people hitting you - Flat Earther

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 27, 2019

    @Bish.8627 said:
    I would really like of block actually blocked, seems every profession can bypass it and even CC it now

    On gw1 u had some skills that if blocked would make another effect, like it would kd target.

    Sometimes I hate my phone corrector....

  • @Pat Rick.6850 said:
    Now at the reset, you dont need to balance wvw and pvp seperately, because you can do the same for both, because if you have more players fight together, the game is unplayable.

    Maybe don't stack your server. It's fine in tier 3 with 3 blobs having fights.

    Disciples of the monkey god [Apes]

  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    Not to defend anet for their many years of neglect... but they already talked more about the balancing in the wvw stream they had a few weeks ago, plus it's mentioned again in the looking ahead post.

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/looking-ahead-to-the-new-year/

    Balance passes, and little else are also par for the course. New guy always pops in, disappears shortly thereafter, half a year later we get a (something).

    Is it crazy to think a company with it's own forum might use it?

    [HUNT] the predatory instinct

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LetoII.3782 said:

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    Not to defend anet for their many years of neglect... but they already talked more about the balancing in the wvw stream they had a few weeks ago, plus it's mentioned again in the looking ahead post.

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/looking-ahead-to-the-new-year/

    Is it crazy to think a company with it's own forum might use it?

    It seems to be. Not sure why. We only bring the torches and pitchforks out after three or four posts...

    But seriously, I just want some engagement from them.

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LetoII.3782 said:

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    Not to defend anet for their many years of neglect... but they already talked more about the balancing in the wvw stream they had a few weeks ago, plus it's mentioned again in the looking ahead post.

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/looking-ahead-to-the-new-year/

    Balance passes, and little else are also par for the course. New guy always pops in, disappears shortly thereafter, half a year later we get a (something).

    Is it crazy to think a company with it's own forum might use it?

    It's not crazy, I laughed every time they posted stuff on reddit and they stated the reason was the old officials forums weren't good enough in function, then comes the new forums and yet still the same thing, then they let go the head community manager, who really didn't engage with the wvw section very much either, but meh. Most companies don't have devs directly talking with the players often other than the small indie companies, or a major issue needs discussing. And yeah wvw always seem to lose their devs to something else without even a word.

    I'm just content that Cal came out and has already mentioned many areas that need balancing, more than any others have done in the past, I mean has any of the balance team members ever posted in the wvw forums before? They're already working on it and planned for a q1 release, normally they don't even say anything until like a week before release. Maybe it's fluff words as usual, maybe it won't be much done and boons will still be crazy good, but he at least posted in here for discussion and they already have a target release time, I'm gonna cut him a little slack for now before I bring the pitchfork back out.

    ^ Another derailing post - Anet
    Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs - Thieves
    A skill overpowered? just nerf their dodge, balanced. - Anet
    There's no power creep you just don't recognize more people hitting you - Flat Earther

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    On that note, coming back to play on reset after a two month break... wvw is still totally in a garbage state... hope they plan on more than just balance and alliances.

    ^ Another derailing post - Anet
    Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs - Thieves
    A skill overpowered? just nerf their dodge, balanced. - Anet
    There's no power creep you just don't recognize more people hitting you - Flat Earther

  • Chorazin.4107Chorazin.4107 Member ✭✭✭

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @LetoII.3782 said:

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    Not to defend anet for their many years of neglect... but they already talked more about the balancing in the wvw stream they had a few weeks ago, plus it's mentioned again in the looking ahead post.

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/looking-ahead-to-the-new-year/

    Is it crazy to think a company with it's own forum might use it?

    It seems to be. Not sure why. We only bring the torches and pitchforks out after three or four posts...

    But seriously, I just want some engagement from them.

    Im only here to bring out the pitch forks :(

    Lets be fair the balance team really do not have much of a clue. Look at the changes to Chrono, pretty much nuked the class into the ground in one patch. And it's not like it was outperforming Mirage, it had 1 glass cannon blow you up from stealth meme build. That can be executed just as efficiently with core mesmer. They nerfed boon share ages ago, so why the changes?

    I think at the end of the day balance is just not a priority for this game. Unless it is something game breaking, the devs load up the skill and animation, do some superficial bug testing to make sure it is working as intended then roll it out.

    And the balance is glacially slow in GW2, which I am kind of ok with given this is not a subscription game. You are paying a sub you expect constant updates and balancing. Devs are not cheap, so they probably have like 2 devs they flog to death while the rest of the team sit around and sip organic almond milk rain forest friendly latte's in the office.

    [lion] - [tRex] - [nâh/UwU/yep]

  • blackgamma.1809blackgamma.1809 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 30, 2019

    @Chorazin.4107 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @LetoII.3782 said:

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    Not to defend anet for their many years of neglect... but they already talked more about the balancing in the wvw stream they had a few weeks ago, plus it's mentioned again in the looking ahead post.

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/looking-ahead-to-the-new-year/

    Is it crazy to think a company with it's own forum might use it?

    It seems to be. Not sure why. We only bring the torches and pitchforks out after three or four posts...

    But seriously, I just want some engagement from them.

    Im only here to bring out the pitch forks :(

    Lets be fair the balance team really do not have much of a clue. Look at the changes to Chrono, pretty much nuked the class into the ground in one patch. And it's not like it was outperforming Mirage, it had 1 glass cannon blow you up from stealth meme build. That can be executed just as efficiently with core mesmer. They nerfed boon share ages ago, so why the changes?

    I think at the end of the day balance is just not a priority for this game. Unless it is something game breaking, the devs load up the skill and animation, do some superficial bug testing to make sure it is working as intended then roll it out.

    And the balance is glacially slow in GW2, which I am kind of ok with given this is not a subscription game. You are paying a sub you expect constant updates and balancing. Devs are not cheap, so they probably have like 2 devs they flog to death while the rest of the team sit around and sip organic almond milk rain forest friendly latte's in the office.

    months ago, devs removed stealth reveal from gyro, creating a displeasing 3 month zerg meta where the zerg that had the shorter stealth duration first lost the fight.
    i straight up stopped playing gw2 at that point. the devs had no idea that they made a balance so bad that it screwed over a core part of the game mode. every wvw player knew it was a bad balance patch, every player knew it was bad balance patch because we as players actually played the game to know it was a bad balance patch. the fact that players knew, and devs that should of known better to not make that change is giant big red flag about the disconnect that devs have from understanding their own game mode. [at the time anyways]

    the devs definitely has dropped the ball multiple times, because they had no reason or rhyme when they implements a change, because they had no direction. in hopes that they have finally found a direction, an understanding the path they want to make a wvw a good game mode, maybe a simplistic balance patch with a direction is what they need so they can make the appropriate steps forward to create more room for a better game mode.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @blackgamma.1809 said:

    @Chorazin.4107 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @LetoII.3782 said:

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    Not to defend anet for their many years of neglect... but they already talked more about the balancing in the wvw stream they had a few weeks ago, plus it's mentioned again in the looking ahead post.

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/looking-ahead-to-the-new-year/

    Is it crazy to think a company with it's own forum might use it?

    It seems to be. Not sure why. We only bring the torches and pitchforks out after three or four posts...

    But seriously, I just want some engagement from them.

    Im only here to bring out the pitch forks :(

    Lets be fair the balance team really do not have much of a clue. Look at the changes to Chrono, pretty much nuked the class into the ground in one patch. And it's not like it was outperforming Mirage, it had 1 glass cannon blow you up from stealth meme build. That can be executed just as efficiently with core mesmer. They nerfed boon share ages ago, so why the changes?

    I think at the end of the day balance is just not a priority for this game. Unless it is something game breaking, the devs load up the skill and animation, do some superficial bug testing to make sure it is working as intended then roll it out.

    And the balance is glacially slow in GW2, which I am kind of ok with given this is not a subscription game. You are paying a sub you expect constant updates and balancing. Devs are not cheap, so they probably have like 2 devs they flog to death while the rest of the team sit around and sip organic almond milk rain forest friendly latte's in the office.

    months ago, devs removed stealth reveal from gyro, creating a displeasing 3 month zerg meta where the zerg that had the shorter stealth duration first lost the fight.
    i straight up stopped playing gw2 at that point. the devs had no idea that they made a balance so bad that it screwed over a core part of the game mode. every wvw player knew it was a bad balance patch, every player knew it was bad balance patch because we as players actually played the game to know it was a bad balance patch. the fact that players knew, and devs that should of known better to not make that change is giant big red flag about the disconnect that devs have from understanding their own game mode. [at the time anyways]

    the devs definitely has dropped the ball multiple times, because they had no reason or rhyme when they implements a change, because they had no direction. in hopes that they have finally found a direction, an understanding the path they want to make a wvw a good game mode, maybe a simplistic balance patch with a direction is what they need so they can make the appropriate steps forward to create more room for a better game mode.

    Which is why I am holding out a sliver of hope that Cal will make a difference. What we have heard is that he actually plays the game with some fairly significant time in PvP. He is new to the balance team and I believe he came from the player base, though I could be wrong.

    Of course, it still remains to be seen and I would bet either in game or real life gold on in.

    Might be a couple of coppers in both though..

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LetoII.3782 said:
    So I thought I'd revisit this thread three months later.
    First post by Cal: October 23
    Last post by Cal: October 23

    Par for the course: Yes

    It's why my Alliance barely plays anymore. If we ever got Alliances we might try it out, but we are pretty sure that is a dead enhancement.

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], [RaW][TACO] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 1, 2020

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @blackgamma.1809 said:

    @Chorazin.4107 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @LetoII.3782 said:

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    Not to defend anet for their many years of neglect... but they already talked more about the balancing in the wvw stream they had a few weeks ago, plus it's mentioned again in the looking ahead post.

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/looking-ahead-to-the-new-year/

    Is it crazy to think a company with it's own forum might use it?

    It seems to be. Not sure why. We only bring the torches and pitchforks out after three or four posts...

    But seriously, I just want some engagement from them.

    Im only here to bring out the pitch forks :(

    Lets be fair the balance team really do not have much of a clue. Look at the changes to Chrono, pretty much nuked the class into the ground in one patch. And it's not like it was outperforming Mirage, it had 1 glass cannon blow you up from stealth meme build. That can be executed just as efficiently with core mesmer. They nerfed boon share ages ago, so why the changes?

    I think at the end of the day balance is just not a priority for this game. Unless it is something game breaking, the devs load up the skill and animation, do some superficial bug testing to make sure it is working as intended then roll it out.

    And the balance is glacially slow in GW2, which I am kind of ok with given this is not a subscription game. You are paying a sub you expect constant updates and balancing. Devs are not cheap, so they probably have like 2 devs they flog to death while the rest of the team sit around and sip organic almond milk rain forest friendly latte's in the office.

    months ago, devs removed stealth reveal from gyro, creating a displeasing 3 month zerg meta where the zerg that had the shorter stealth duration first lost the fight.
    i straight up stopped playing gw2 at that point. the devs had no idea that they made a balance so bad that it screwed over a core part of the game mode. every wvw player knew it was a bad balance patch, every player knew it was bad balance patch because we as players actually played the game to know it was a bad balance patch. the fact that players knew, and devs that should of known better to not make that change is giant big red flag about the disconnect that devs have from understanding their own game mode. [at the time anyways]

    the devs definitely has dropped the ball multiple times, because they had no reason or rhyme when they implements a change, because they had no direction. in hopes that they have finally found a direction, an understanding the path they want to make a wvw a good game mode, maybe a simplistic balance patch with a direction is what they need so they can make the appropriate steps forward to create more room for a better game mode.

    Which is why I am holding out a sliver of hope that Cal will make a difference. What we have heard is that he actually plays the game with some fairly significant time in PvP. He is new to the balance team and I believe he came from the player base, though I could be wrong.

    Of course, it still remains to be seen and I would bet either in game or real life gold on in.

    Might be a couple of coppers in both though..

    But his work/actions are probably limited to just damage up and down, wich is redundanct way of not solving the real issue arround what is creating the unbalance in the game.

    Damage up and down wont solve the current class and combat mess game is suffering.
    The main reason we are in this state of a game is due how classes were designed and Anet devs mentality behind it and how players should be carried by the class gameplay....if they keep adding every class lots of spam and redundanct gameplay but just with more damage or plenty more boons, Cal work m8 be unnoteceable has much he can try to put the game in the right direction, and IMO he does not deserve it to backfire while during 7years Anet was completelly ignorant about decent class creation andbalance fixes...

    IMO mainlly Anet needs to see what classes due and not, mesmer for example feels pretty much the same wahever elite or core speck im playing i have access to the "same burst" combos being trough condi or damage wont change much cause the main mechanics stand equal and redundanct just with a diferent name and animation and intead of hitting 3, hits 5.

    As for mesmer as example, they need to think and avaliate what core does, what mirage does and what chronomancer does even if means remove or add mechanics on its gameplay.
    For example, mesmer needs to loose access to stealth, it has clones, and needs some new mechanic added as compensation, mirage could have the stealth and gameplay arround clones/mirages, chronomancer would loose stealth but could save positions like thief and return to its inital position due time control,could become a hexer, chrono means time, class should be about slow and aste allies, make conditions on enemy pulse faster ticks and slower on allies, it could also end allie boons faster with is hexes, what we have now kinda feels themewise weak :\ its gameplay could be better than find gimmicks based on damage output, just like any other mesmer build or class.

    To many classes doing the same:
    Resistance
    Condi spam
    Cleanse spam
    Boon spam and stack
    Aoe's...its a messfest.

    Each class should be themed andlimited to control that its theme sets to it.

    TDRL, Anet lacked vision when making the classes now we are all paying for that, all classes are just a buffed version from previous versions....IMO that need to get fixed changed ASAP before any balance change wich are just damage up and dow, and since classes use salvaged mechanics and skills to feel different with just higher damage it didnt helped at all the game.

    To many classes doing the same, wil be impossible or make combat better.

  • The non-Damage times for such Chars like Warriors and Archers is way to high. Four seconds plus of non-Damage is they Live and Death for others. For example, when playing with my Necro I attack them I just see Zero’s popping up for Damage, so I have to run because if you stand and Fight your Dead. Even if you wait the time till you can do Damage you can’t even cast enough damage in the time given before you see Zero’s popping again. Same Thing with Archers and there holding. They capture you send their pets and shoot, bam your dead and you can’t do a thing and if you get loose to attack, you’re not going to see them because they disappear. Just like thieves. If you see one 10 seconds in a fight you did well. 90% of the time you can’t see them and if they play dead eye, BAM One Hit, your dead if you didn’t manage to hit more life or roll at the second they shot. Sure Necors and others have longer Life or healing and the Wells which say can’t be blocked( Don’t work) you see zero’s and not Damage.
    Ok the new trades were added so that you can run around with different armor and traits but here you have to click all over and Really, when running with a group/Guild who switches when you running alone to catch back up with the group. If you do then you forget to change when you’re back with the group from your 1vs1 to Guild Build. Ooops.

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2020

    @ThomasC.1056 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:

    @ThomasC.1056 said:

    @Coinhead.7591 said:
    Is removing come stat combinations from gear a possibility? Personally I wouldn't mind to see minstrel gear gone :)

    To be honest, I think they should just put everyone in exotic celestial gear with superior divinity runes, for a 1 week to 1 month long trial. At first, I thought it as a joke, but I'm considering more and more seriously that it could be useful.

    You could see whether the stat choice is that impactful or not, and above all, you could see what part of the issues come from the stat, and what part comes from the skills/traits.

    Last but not least, you could also see whether a lower DPS/higher sustain actually increases the TTK, to what extent, and whether it's actually better/funnier.

    Or we could just use PvP style stat selection in a PvP mode, and make it fair on everyone regardless of PvE incomes.

    Must be new here in the WvW section :p

    Ammy system would kill build diversity. PvP has its own problems and special toxicity. To bring that into a grander scale would cause more issues on top of killing diversity.

    I agree. My suggestion is only a week-test, and specifically with celestial to equalize the stats of everyone, and see what comes from the stats, and what comes from the rest (passive procs, etc.), in the scope of the big balance rework that's in progress.

    Just because you "equalize the stats" does in no way mean that you also equalized every class. Necro, ele and guard for example benefit from every single stat of celestial, to a point where it was actually played basically as meta build for some time. While warrior, ranger etc. wont make use of alot of those provided stats, making them alot less effective than those other classes that can use those stats.
    You would effectively have some classes play with less statpoints than others, how is that anywhere near balanced?

    Id take pvp amulets ANYTIME over your all celestial proposal.

  • Seed.5467Seed.5467 Member
    edited January 8, 2020

    So, for the purpose of this discussion, consider these two future updates. First for the short-term: What outliers do you see in the current meta? Then think about the big picture: What issues do you see on a fundamental level that should be addressed? Think outside of the current meta and instead about what you want the meta to look like from a power-level perspective. Keep in mind that a majority of changes should be splits, but feel free to also call out issues that you feel cannot be addressed by splits.

    What i like to see is a WvW framework that works separate from PvE and sPvP. The bigger picture i have in mind is as follows :

    1. Establish an armor set(Heavy,Medium,Light) and Trinkets for all classes, with baseline stats that works only in WvW.
    2. Establish a fixed TTK in WvW.
    3. Remove all the passive conditions/boons/heals/damage/stealth etc. from traits in WvW.
    4. Establish a baseline of conditions/boons/heals/damage/stealth etc. for each class in WvW.
    5. Make conditions/boons affect only armor stats and remove the damage per second from conditions in WvW. Then tied to the mastery system of WvW (i.e Bleed mastery X points. Each stack of bleed you applied to an enemy/enemies, is reducing their health x%)
    6. Tie the effectiveness of conditions/boons/heals/Stealth/Damage etc. and skill effectiveness, to the mastery system of WvW. (i.e Boon mastery X Points. When you apply a boon to an ally, that boon is x% more effective.)

    Other stuff that i like to see :

    1. Make the activators for tactic work only when there is actually an attack on keep/tower.
    2. Adjust the damage of siege to be able to counter against zergs.
    3. Re.adjust the amount of siege been able to be placed and remove the ability, to be able to place catapults, almost halfway inside the walls where no defense siege can reach.
    4. Make some fixed places where siege can be placed defensively without getting destroyed because it stays few centimeters close from enemy AOE-radius.It should only get damaged in radius.

    Those are my thoughts and my opinion.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ThomasC.1056 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    (...)
    In this thread I would like the community to come up with a list of your top 5 “ biggest pain points” and how you would tackle them.

    Hello,

    I won't list 5 points, but here are some thoughts. First point is a question :

    What is WvW all about ?

    I think that's the core question of all this.

    I read here and there that WvW is all about fights, but if it was the case, we'd only need a big flat empty map with 3 TP. So part of what the WvW is about is provided by the map, and it's objectives to fight for, and playstyles. Back when DBL was launched, there was the shrines who provided advantages, or barricades, and people went all "Oh noes, I can't go back to my fight as quick as in ABL plz delete", but this provided new ways of being part of it. Like 1-2 ppl running the shrines to trigger the fire turrets and help with the fight in the lava keep.

    There're people who like to zerg, there're people who like to roam, to scout, to escort dollies, to have their beloved tower raise to T3. And I feel like everyone should find a thing to do in WvW, and feel like one belong, and take part of it. And get rewards from it. Reward is not necessarily items or gold, it's also some notion of pride. Right now, material rewards are lame, and most actions aren't rewarding. You take someting ? It'll be taken one hour or less later. You fight and work to your T3 ? It won't prevent it from being flipped soon. You fight intensely a whole evening to protect your T3 keep ? Whatever ! The last one to go to sleep will have it.

    In a nutshell : WvW has to provide various playstyles, various roles, that'd be engaging and rewarding.

    Right now, it's not. It's only about fights, which leads to...

    Fights are underwhelming.

    Proof is most people don't want to engage in fights they're not sure to win in a matter of a split second. Gank builds, mounts, zegs, stunlocks. Specific change, but fundamentals stay. It's a matter of balance, and design philosophy.

    On the design philosophy, TTK is too short, and most fights boil down to : "just toss your rotation, rinse and repeat." No strategy, no choices, no turning tides. It favours lazy gameplay, and jaded players. I remember GW1 with strategies, intricate build choices. But fights were far slower, you had to aim and select, there was a casting bar, interrupts were significant... No such things in GW2 but I still hope it can be better.

    In a nutshell : Fights are boring by design, and design allows bored players to avoid them through mere escape, or one-shot builds.

    wvw is a king of the hill battle where only 1 server is the last man standing. that's it basically.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • ThomasC.1056ThomasC.1056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2020

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @ThomasC.1056 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:

    @ThomasC.1056 said:

    @Coinhead.7591 said:
    Is removing come stat combinations from gear a possibility? Personally I wouldn't mind to see minstrel gear gone :)

    To be honest, I think they should just put everyone in exotic celestial gear with superior divinity runes, for a 1 week to 1 month long trial. At first, I thought it as a joke, but I'm considering more and more seriously that it could be useful.

    You could see whether the stat choice is that impactful or not, and above all, you could see what part of the issues come from the stat, and what part comes from the skills/traits.

    Last but not least, you could also see whether a lower DPS/higher sustain actually increases the TTK, to what extent, and whether it's actually better/funnier.

    Or we could just use PvP style stat selection in a PvP mode, and make it fair on everyone regardless of PvE incomes.

    Must be new here in the WvW section :p

    Ammy system would kill build diversity. PvP has its own problems and special toxicity. To bring that into a grander scale would cause more issues on top of killing diversity.

    I agree. My suggestion is only a week-test, and specifically with celestial to equalize the stats of everyone, and see what comes from the stats, and what comes from the rest (passive procs, etc.), in the scope of the big balance rework that's in progress.

    Just because you "equalize the stats" does in no way mean that you also equalized every class. Necro, ele and guard for example benefit from every single stat of celestial, to a point where it was actually played basically as meta build for some time. While warrior, ranger etc. wont make use of alot of those provided stats, making them alot less effective than those other classes that can use those stats.
    You would effectively have some classes play with less statpoints than others, how is that anywhere near balanced?

    Id take pvp amulets ANYTIME over your all celestial proposal.

    You should consider reading more carefully.

    I'm not telling everyone should be in celestial all the time. Not at all.

    I'm telling that it should be a temporary check, specifically because, as you're saying :

    Necro, ele and guard for example benefit from every single stat of celestial, to a point where it was actually played basically as meta build for some time. While warrior, ranger etc. wont make use of alot of those provided stats, making them alot less effective than those other classes that can use those stats.

    So it's just a way to check what class is overperforming and by what mean. I'm not telling it's any kind of solution towards a more balanced game. Only it's an idea of a diagnostic among others.

    Look at that—you broke Scruffy's sarcasm meters. ~ Taimi.

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2020

    @ThomasC.1056 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @ThomasC.1056 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:

    @ThomasC.1056 said:

    @Coinhead.7591 said:
    Is removing come stat combinations from gear a possibility? Personally I wouldn't mind to see minstrel gear gone :)

    To be honest, I think they should just put everyone in exotic celestial gear with superior divinity runes, for a 1 week to 1 month long trial. At first, I thought it as a joke, but I'm considering more and more seriously that it could be useful.

    You could see whether the stat choice is that impactful or not, and above all, you could see what part of the issues come from the stat, and what part comes from the skills/traits.

    Last but not least, you could also see whether a lower DPS/higher sustain actually increases the TTK, to what extent, and whether it's actually better/funnier.

    Or we could just use PvP style stat selection in a PvP mode, and make it fair on everyone regardless of PvE incomes.

    Must be new here in the WvW section :p

    Ammy system would kill build diversity. PvP has its own problems and special toxicity. To bring that into a grander scale would cause more issues on top of killing diversity.

    I agree. My suggestion is only a week-test, and specifically with celestial to equalize the stats of everyone, and see what comes from the stats, and what comes from the rest (passive procs, etc.), in the scope of the big balance rework that's in progress.

    Just because you "equalize the stats" does in no way mean that you also equalized every class. Necro, ele and guard for example benefit from every single stat of celestial, to a point where it was actually played basically as meta build for some time. While warrior, ranger etc. wont make use of alot of those provided stats, making them alot less effective than those other classes that can use those stats.
    You would effectively have some classes play with less statpoints than others, how is that anywhere near balanced?

    Id take pvp amulets ANYTIME over your all celestial proposal.

    You should consider reading more carefully.

    I'm not telling everyone should be in celestial all the time. Not at all.

    I'm telling that it should be a temporary check, specifically because, as you're saying :

    Necro, ele and guard for example benefit from every single stat of celestial, to a point where it was actually played basically as meta build for some time. While warrior, ranger etc. wont make use of alot of those provided stats, making them alot less effective than those other classes that can use those stats.

    So it's just a way to check what class is overperforming and by what mean. I'm not telling it's any kind of solution towards a more balanced game. Only it's an idea of a diagnostic among others.

    I understood that its temporary, but its not a "check". You wont see whos overperforming, you would only see who benefits the most from celestial gear, nothing more, nothing less.
    And we even know which classes are benefitting the most.
    This would only make sense if you wanted to balance classes around celestial gear.

    If you give them all celestial, then start balancing them, so that they all are equally good, and then go back to all armor stats open, what do you think would happpen?

    You gain absolutely nothing from your test. Ofc a warrior will perform worse on celestial than a guard, ele or necro...
    And there is no problem with that, it doesnt mean those classes are overperforming, just because they are able to make use of all those stats.
    What do you think you gain from your "diagnosis" ?

  • ThomasC.1056ThomasC.1056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2020

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @ThomasC.1056 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @ThomasC.1056 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:

    @ThomasC.1056 said:

    @Coinhead.7591 said:
    Is removing come stat combinations from gear a possibility? Personally I wouldn't mind to see minstrel gear gone :)

    To be honest, I think they should just put everyone in exotic celestial gear with superior divinity runes, for a 1 week to 1 month long trial. At first, I thought it as a joke, but I'm considering more and more seriously that it could be useful.

    You could see whether the stat choice is that impactful or not, and above all, you could see what part of the issues come from the stat, and what part comes from the skills/traits.

    Last but not least, you could also see whether a lower DPS/higher sustain actually increases the TTK, to what extent, and whether it's actually better/funnier.

    Or we could just use PvP style stat selection in a PvP mode, and make it fair on everyone regardless of PvE incomes.

    Must be new here in the WvW section :p

    Ammy system would kill build diversity. PvP has its own problems and special toxicity. To bring that into a grander scale would cause more issues on top of killing diversity.

    I agree. My suggestion is only a week-test, and specifically with celestial to equalize the stats of everyone, and see what comes from the stats, and what comes from the rest (passive procs, etc.), in the scope of the big balance rework that's in progress.

    Just because you "equalize the stats" does in no way mean that you also equalized every class. Necro, ele and guard for example benefit from every single stat of celestial, to a point where it was actually played basically as meta build for some time. While warrior, ranger etc. wont make use of alot of those provided stats, making them alot less effective than those other classes that can use those stats.
    You would effectively have some classes play with less statpoints than others, how is that anywhere near balanced?

    Id take pvp amulets ANYTIME over your all celestial proposal.

    You should consider reading more carefully.

    I'm not telling everyone should be in celestial all the time. Not at all.

    I'm telling that it should be a temporary check, specifically because, as you're saying :

    Necro, ele and guard for example benefit from every single stat of celestial, to a point where it was actually played basically as meta build for some time. While warrior, ranger etc. wont make use of alot of those provided stats, making them alot less effective than those other classes that can use those stats.

    So it's just a way to check what class is overperforming and by what mean. I'm not telling it's any kind of solution towards a more balanced game. Only it's an idea of a diagnostic among others.

    I understood that its temporary, but its not a "check". You wont see whos overperforming, you would only see who benefits the most from celestial gear, nothing more, nothing less.
    And we even know which classes are benefitting the most.
    This would only make sense if you wanted to balance classes around celestial gear.

    If you give them all celestial, then start balancing them, so that they all are equally good, and then go back to all armor stats open, what do you think would happpen?

    You gain absolutely nothing from your test. Ofc a warrior will perform worse on celestial than a guard, ele or necro...
    And there is no problem with that, it doesnt mean those classes are overperforming, just because they are able to make use of all those stats.
    What do you think you gain from your "diagnosis" ?

    The first thing you gain is you get the knowledge of what lies behind the "of course" you stated in "Ofc a warrior will perform worse".

    Now, to dig a bit deeper. Say "Ele is overperforming". If, indeed, Ele overperforms when every other class is put in celestial gear, it means that Ele can rely on something else than stats to perform. It can be boons that provide an artificial stat increase (a temporary one, allegedly, but we all know...), or passive procs, or skills that are "more powerful", or traits more interesting, or a more versatile class (jack of all trades...). All of this is class design, and there're numbers here that could be toned down.

    Likewise, if you say "Warrior is underperforming", it can imply its skills aren't powerful enough, or traits are uninteresting, or there're less passive etc. So numbers here could be toned up.

    The purpose is to see where are the strengths and weaknesses of a class, when all other things are equal. I'm not saying things should be balanced for celestial. Ele's design is more suitable for celestial, while Warrior's design is more "put your eggs in the same basket" indeed, but it's only to have a check.

    In the end of the day, I think what was initially a silly idea of mine I said as a semi-serious joke is going far too much into the migraine area :-)

    Look at that—you broke Scruffy's sarcasm meters. ~ Taimi.

  • Liston.9708Liston.9708 Member ✭✭✭

    Balance step 1 is nerf of dragon banner. Not as familiar with the other 2, but a banner should not wreak as much havoc. Nerf could be to damage or CD.

  • Balance seems decent atm, theres not much take special note of (or instantly run away from lol), almost everything seems to be within acceptable ranges.

    However, one of my biggest concerns about WvW, is that it seems the populations (NA) are thinned out way too much, and that creates alot of emptiness. When nothing happens, ppl go do other stuff or log out. Back in the day, there would be fights in all the major world timezones, around the clock on the most populated NA servers. It felt like war, as it should. NA servers need to condense the populations closer togther to bring the level of action up!

    If u look at the "Kills & Deaths" and compare EU & NA, EU numbers are more than double, and the week isnt even over. With those numbers im looking at, it looks like the NA servers had their server population cap halved at some point, but EU kept it at the same old level (the EU KD is roughly the same it always has been). (There could be other explanations obviously.)

    Make WvW feel like a war again

    _/_ [SSSh] Secret Society Service _/_
    [Respect Ur Opponents, We All Provide Eachothers Fun]
    Blackgate Since Season 1

  • @ThomasC.1056 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @ThomasC.1056 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @ThomasC.1056 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:

    @ThomasC.1056 said:

    @Coinhead.7591 said:
    Is removing come stat combinations from gear a possibility? Personally I wouldn't mind to see minstrel gear gone :)

    To be honest, I think they should just put everyone in exotic celestial gear with superior divinity runes, for a 1 week to 1 month long trial. At first, I thought it as a joke, but I'm considering more and more seriously that it could be useful.

    You could see whether the stat choice is that impactful or not, and above all, you could see what part of the issues come from the stat, and what part comes from the skills/traits.

    Last but not least, you could also see whether a lower DPS/higher sustain actually increases the TTK, to what extent, and whether it's actually better/funnier.

    Or we could just use PvP style stat selection in a PvP mode, and make it fair on everyone regardless of PvE incomes.

    Must be new here in the WvW section :p

    Ammy system would kill build diversity. PvP has its own problems and special toxicity. To bring that into a grander scale would cause more issues on top of killing diversity.

    I agree. My suggestion is only a week-test, and specifically with celestial to equalize the stats of everyone, and see what comes from the stats, and what comes from the rest (passive procs, etc.), in the scope of the big balance rework that's in progress.

    Just because you "equalize the stats" does in no way mean that you also equalized every class. Necro, ele and guard for example benefit from every single stat of celestial, to a point where it was actually played basically as meta build for some time. While warrior, ranger etc. wont make use of alot of those provided stats, making them alot less effective than those other classes that can use those stats.
    You would effectively have some classes play with less statpoints than others, how is that anywhere near balanced?

    Id take pvp amulets ANYTIME over your all celestial proposal.

    You should consider reading more carefully.

    I'm not telling everyone should be in celestial all the time. Not at all.

    I'm telling that it should be a temporary check, specifically because, as you're saying :

    Necro, ele and guard for example benefit from every single stat of celestial, to a point where it was actually played basically as meta build for some time. While warrior, ranger etc. wont make use of alot of those provided stats, making them alot less effective than those other classes that can use those stats.

    So it's just a way to check what class is overperforming and by what mean. I'm not telling it's any kind of solution towards a more balanced game. Only it's an idea of a diagnostic among others.

    I understood that its temporary, but its not a "check". You wont see whos overperforming, you would only see who benefits the most from celestial gear, nothing more, nothing less.
    And we even know which classes are benefitting the most.
    This would only make sense if you wanted to balance classes around celestial gear.

    If you give them all celestial, then start balancing them, so that they all are equally good, and then go back to all armor stats open, what do you think would happpen?

    You gain absolutely nothing from your test. Ofc a warrior will perform worse on celestial than a guard, ele or necro...
    And there is no problem with that, it doesnt mean those classes are overperforming, just because they are able to make use of all those stats.
    What do you think you gain from your "diagnosis" ?

    The first thing you gain is you get the knowledge of what lies behind the "of course" you stated in "Ofc a warrior will perform worse".

    Now, to dig a bit deeper. Say "Ele is overperforming". If, indeed, Ele overperforms when every other class is put in celestial gear, it means that Ele can rely on something else than stats to perform. It can be boons that provide an artificial stat increase (a temporary one, allegedly, but we all know...), or passive procs, or skills that are "more powerful", or traits more interesting, or a more versatile class (jack of all trades...). All of this is class design, and there're numbers here that could be toned down.

    Likewise, if you say "Warrior is underperforming", it can imply its skills aren't powerful enough, or traits are uninteresting, or there're less passive etc. So numbers here could be toned up.

    The purpose is to see where are the strengths and weaknesses of a class, when all other things are equal. I'm not saying things should be balanced for celestial. Ele's design is more suitable for celestial, while Warrior's design is more "put your eggs in the same basket" indeed, but it's only to have a check.

    In the end of the day, I think what was initially a silly idea of mine I said as a semi-serious joke is going far too much into the migraine area :-)

    I was sceptic on your Idea when i first Read IT but after some thoughts IT might work what you say. But i dont consider 1 tryout to be a full test, maybe do some stats tweek (+600 stats instead of +1k stats on cele once, add concentration and replace condi damage with expertise or add Both and remove Fer. Etc.). Cele Will benefit the builds capable of Being hybrid the most (firebrand, druid, ele, scrapper, scourge and mesmer). If you remove certain aspects you can really test whats performing well

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2020

    I think it would be interesting to nerf the duration of most aoe down to 2 secs but buff its damage / effects. give most aoes a 1 sec timer before it starts ticking. pretty sure this would make aoe cause less lag.

  • @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    Hi Everyone,

    I wanted to clarify something from today’s blog post while also kicking off a discussion on a topic that’s near and dear to most competitive players: balance.

    It’s important to understand that as competitive handles competitive balance, we will continue to primarily use skill splits in order to minimize the impact on the rest of the game. It’s certainly true that not all issues can be addressed through splits, and we will continue to work with the skills team to make sure we are making the right changes for the entire game when splitting is not a viable option.

    Mini Balance Roadmap

    We have identified the overall power of the game has become an issue and we wish to address this in the competitive game modes.

    The next balance update is going to be smaller than usual. We want to make a handful of very targeted changes to address the biggest pain points in the current meta, but we also want to bank some time for bigger plans moving forward. For a future balance update, we are looking at major adjustments across the board. The goal is to re-establish what the overall power level for competitive modes, and then bring everything down to meet that. In true gw2 fashion, everything is on the table.

    With that said, we’re not going to nerf just for the sake of nerfing. Every change should make sense, and every change should be working toward a bigger goal. This patch is still super early in development, so I don’t want to go into too much detail, but it’s definitely something we want to talk about more moving forward. As mentioned in the blog post, we want to keep the community involved early and often when it comes to balance.

    So, for the purpose of this discussion, consider these two future updates. First for the short-term: What outliers do you see in the current meta? Then think about the big picture: What issues do you see on a fundamental level that should be addressed? Think outside of the current meta and instead about what you want the meta to look like from a power-level perspective. Keep in mind that a majority of changes should be splits, but feel free to also call out issues that you feel cannot be addressed by splits.

    This post is intentionally starting a broad discussion as a jumping off point into the new communication of the Systems team, but keep in mind that in the future our posts are generally going to be more targeted at specific issues as we won’t have as much time to handle giant discussions.

    I wanted to keep this initial post fairly short, so please ask questions about anything that is unclear. Otherwise, let’s talk balance.

    cmc

    It's taken 7 years to get Anet to properly admit that PvE needs different balance than PvP and WvW.
    Please don't take 7 more years to get Anet to properly admit that PvP has profoundly different mechanics to WvW
    Without 3 different sets of balance objectives (teams) - balance is going to be bad.
    Trying to balance PvP & WvW without comprehensive skill splits between them is guaranteed to be deeply unsatisfying and counter productive.

    • just consider reflect bubble on firebrand for one single skill example, look at: use, uptime, placement, coverage, total reflects with 1 FB on each side vs with 10 FBs on each side.
  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2020

    @Kalan.9705 said:

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    Hi Everyone,

    I wanted to clarify something from today’s blog post while also kicking off a discussion on a topic that’s near and dear to most competitive players: balance.

    It’s important to understand that as competitive handles competitive balance, we will continue to primarily use skill splits in order to minimize the impact on the rest of the game. It’s certainly true that not all issues can be addressed through splits, and we will continue to work with the skills team to make sure we are making the right changes for the entire game when splitting is not a viable option.

    Mini Balance Roadmap

    We have identified the overall power of the game has become an issue and we wish to address this in the competitive game modes.

    The next balance update is going to be smaller than usual. We want to make a handful of very targeted changes to address the biggest pain points in the current meta, but we also want to bank some time for bigger plans moving forward. For a future balance update, we are looking at major adjustments across the board. The goal is to re-establish what the overall power level for competitive modes, and then bring everything down to meet that. In true gw2 fashion, everything is on the table.

    With that said, we’re not going to nerf just for the sake of nerfing. Every change should make sense, and every change should be working toward a bigger goal. This patch is still super early in development, so I don’t want to go into too much detail, but it’s definitely something we want to talk about more moving forward. As mentioned in the blog post, we want to keep the community involved early and often when it comes to balance.

    So, for the purpose of this discussion, consider these two future updates. First for the short-term: What outliers do you see in the current meta? Then think about the big picture: What issues do you see on a fundamental level that should be addressed? Think outside of the current meta and instead about what you want the meta to look like from a power-level perspective. Keep in mind that a majority of changes should be splits, but feel free to also call out issues that you feel cannot be addressed by splits.

    This post is intentionally starting a broad discussion as a jumping off point into the new communication of the Systems team, but keep in mind that in the future our posts are generally going to be more targeted at specific issues as we won’t have as much time to handle giant discussions.

    I wanted to keep this initial post fairly short, so please ask questions about anything that is unclear. Otherwise, let’s talk balance.

    cmc

    It's taken 7 years to get Anet to properly admit that PvE needs different balance than PvP and WvW.
    Please don't take 7 more years to get Anet to properly admit that PvP has profoundly different mechanics to WvW
    Without 3 different sets of balance objectives (teams) - balance is going to be bad.
    Trying to balance PvP & WvW without comprehensive skill splits between them is guaranteed to be deeply unsatisfying and counter productive.

    • just consider reflect bubble on firebrand for one single skill example, look at: use, uptime, placement, coverage, total reflects with 1 FB on each side vs with 10 FBs on each side.

    The 3 ambients could work in armory quite easy if had decent iteration and a decent ideology behind it from the beggining.

    It’s always a mistake to separate the game mode skills w/o realizing the “why it must happen”.

  • @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @blackgamma.1809 said:

    @Chorazin.4107 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @LetoII.3782 said:

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    Not to defend anet for their many years of neglect... but they already talked more about the balancing in the wvw stream they had a few weeks ago, plus it's mentioned again in the looking ahead post.

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/looking-ahead-to-the-new-year/

    Is it crazy to think a company with it's own forum might use it?

    It seems to be. Not sure why. We only bring the torches and pitchforks out after three or four posts...

    But seriously, I just want some engagement from them.

    Im only here to bring out the pitch forks :(

    Lets be fair the balance team really do not have much of a clue. Look at the changes to Chrono, pretty much nuked the class into the ground in one patch. And it's not like it was outperforming Mirage, it had 1 glass cannon blow you up from stealth meme build. That can be executed just as efficiently with core mesmer. They nerfed boon share ages ago, so why the changes?

    I think at the end of the day balance is just not a priority for this game. Unless it is something game breaking, the devs load up the skill and animation, do some superficial bug testing to make sure it is working as intended then roll it out.

    And the balance is glacially slow in GW2, which I am kind of ok with given this is not a subscription game. You are paying a sub you expect constant updates and balancing. Devs are not cheap, so they probably have like 2 devs they flog to death while the rest of the team sit around and sip organic almond milk rain forest friendly latte's in the office.

    months ago, devs removed stealth reveal from gyro, creating a displeasing 3 month zerg meta where the zerg that had the shorter stealth duration first lost the fight.
    i straight up stopped playing gw2 at that point. the devs had no idea that they made a balance so bad that it screwed over a core part of the game mode. every wvw player knew it was a bad balance patch, every player knew it was bad balance patch because we as players actually played the game to know it was a bad balance patch. the fact that players knew, and devs that should of known better to not make that change is giant big red flag about the disconnect that devs have from understanding their own game mode. [at the time anyways]

    the devs definitely has dropped the ball multiple times, because they had no reason or rhyme when they implements a change, because they had no direction. in hopes that they have finally found a direction, an understanding the path they want to make a wvw a good game mode, maybe a simplistic balance patch with a direction is what they need so they can make the appropriate steps forward to create more room for a better game mode.

    Which is why I am holding out a sliver of hope that Cal will make a difference. What we have heard is that he actually plays the game with some fairly significant time in PvP. He is new to the balance team and I believe he came from the player base, though I could be wrong.

    Of course, it still remains to be seen and I would bet either in game or real life gold on in.

    Might be a couple of coppers in both though..

    A dev who's played a lot of PvP and then thinking somehow this will help him balance WvW could actually be worse than a dev who's played neither mode and is actually open to the realisation that they are completely different games with skill splits required.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    A dev who's played pvp will at least have some experience on how the numbers affect players than npcs. A dev who doesn't, well, look at how balance has been the last 5 years. When it comes down to it, the next splits will probably be more focused on damage numbers than cooldowns or charges which is mostly what they did in the past. A pve dev wouldn't care if a skill hits for 20k, that's a drop in the bucket of a npc boss, in pvp that's a one shot, npc healthpools have increased since HoT along with player damage and support, player health pools haven't, a pvp dev should at least take this into account.

    ^ Another derailing post - Anet
    Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs - Thieves
    A skill overpowered? just nerf their dodge, balanced. - Anet
    There's no power creep you just don't recognize more people hitting you - Flat Earther

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kalan.9705 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @blackgamma.1809 said:

    @Chorazin.4107 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @LetoII.3782 said:

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    Not to defend anet for their many years of neglect... but they already talked more about the balancing in the wvw stream they had a few weeks ago, plus it's mentioned again in the looking ahead post.

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/looking-ahead-to-the-new-year/

    Is it crazy to think a company with it's own forum might use it?

    It seems to be. Not sure why. We only bring the torches and pitchforks out after three or four posts...

    But seriously, I just want some engagement from them.

    Im only here to bring out the pitch forks :(

    Lets be fair the balance team really do not have much of a clue. Look at the changes to Chrono, pretty much nuked the class into the ground in one patch. And it's not like it was outperforming Mirage, it had 1 glass cannon blow you up from stealth meme build. That can be executed just as efficiently with core mesmer. They nerfed boon share ages ago, so why the changes?

    I think at the end of the day balance is just not a priority for this game. Unless it is something game breaking, the devs load up the skill and animation, do some superficial bug testing to make sure it is working as intended then roll it out.

    And the balance is glacially slow in GW2, which I am kind of ok with given this is not a subscription game. You are paying a sub you expect constant updates and balancing. Devs are not cheap, so they probably have like 2 devs they flog to death while the rest of the team sit around and sip organic almond milk rain forest friendly latte's in the office.

    months ago, devs removed stealth reveal from gyro, creating a displeasing 3 month zerg meta where the zerg that had the shorter stealth duration first lost the fight.
    i straight up stopped playing gw2 at that point. the devs had no idea that they made a balance so bad that it screwed over a core part of the game mode. every wvw player knew it was a bad balance patch, every player knew it was bad balance patch because we as players actually played the game to know it was a bad balance patch. the fact that players knew, and devs that should of known better to not make that change is giant big red flag about the disconnect that devs have from understanding their own game mode. [at the time anyways]

    the devs definitely has dropped the ball multiple times, because they had no reason or rhyme when they implements a change, because they had no direction. in hopes that they have finally found a direction, an understanding the path they want to make a wvw a good game mode, maybe a simplistic balance patch with a direction is what they need so they can make the appropriate steps forward to create more room for a better game mode.

    Which is why I am holding out a sliver of hope that Cal will make a difference. What we have heard is that he actually plays the game with some fairly significant time in PvP. He is new to the balance team and I believe he came from the player base, though I could be wrong.

    Of course, it still remains to be seen and I would bet either in game or real life gold on in.

    Might be a couple of coppers in both though..

    A dev who's played a lot of PvP and then thinking somehow this will help him balance WvW could actually be worse than a dev who's played neither mode and is actually open to the realisation that they are completely different games with skill splits required.

    Wrong, cause what u say that it’s better has been proven actually that is what won’t work.

    A person with pvp experience will know or have a better sense of noticing whats the diference between being carried moment and getting outplayed by player skill rather than loose towards a gimmick high damage gimmick.

    Game needs to be player carrying class and not the opposite, and classes do to much almost no team work is needed, note boon stack and spam is not team work....

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    Game needs to be player carrying class and not the opposite, and classes do to much almost no team work is needed, note boon stack and spam is not team work....

    Yea this is correct.

    The entire large scale WvW scene has largely been dominated by Scourges and Firebrands.

    There has been efforts to bring other classes into viability, which is great, but this never stopped Firebrands and Scourges from topping the rest in their respective roles as DPS and Support/Frontline spearhead.

    While there are other stuff on the smaller scale for roamers to worry about, like the state of Boonbeasts, the dominance of Holos and the occasional complaint that X class does X too well, all of this is meaningless in the face of a zerg at full strength, carried purely just by having a massive diarrhoea of boons and dropping massive amounts of zoning/debilitating cancer circles.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • thing is, if firebrands and scrappers get nerfed, each nuke/dps class (warrior, thief, mesmer, necro, dragonhunter, ele, ranger, ranger) has to be nerfed into the ground damagewise... we're on a point where healing classes tend to struggle to out-heal the insane damagepeaks of all the oneshotbuilds, despite firebrands beeing very common and often doing work. specifically talking about situation where they sleep (reacted too slow) or the damage classes cower instead of pushing, leading to the healer taking unnecessary damage. both situations are pretty common.

    funny that u mention holo as dominating, because as good as it is, i see rather few of them compared to literally any other class. strong melee is the only answer to the still present condi-field spam... if something in this "balance" patch gets messed up, you can forget fighting higher numbers, so i rather have them take their time till march instead of getting some total mess.

    and again: battles are not the problem.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2020

    Don't know why people think support are the ones getting major nerfs, the most talked about points from the devs has been about damage, support obviously needs to also be toned down to match that properly otherwise you'll end up with an overly bunker meta which also isn't good. The current meta is basically a ton of damage, a ton of support, and you only crack groups when something fails to be casted whether that's stability or block or reflect, or some really good timing of corruption of protection and stability. Everything on both sides needs to be toned down.

    ^ Another derailing post - Anet
    Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs - Thieves
    A skill overpowered? just nerf their dodge, balanced. - Anet
    There's no power creep you just don't recognize more people hitting you - Flat Earther

  • Svarty.8019Svarty.8019 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    Hi Everyone,
    [..]

    Mini Balance Roadmap

    We have identified the overall power of the game has become an issue and we wish to address this in the competitive game modes.
    [..]
    cmc

    Balance of SKILLS is very important and thanks for addressing it.

    I wonder if anything is being done in terms of balance of server populations, because [High] vs [Full+Medium] vs [Very High+Medium] is this week's matchup for us and it's extremely not fun.

    Is it more important to allow lucrative gem store server transfers than to keep players happy?

    Thief OP? Better nerf Scourge ... again.
    Hashtag BlameMcLain

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Svarty.8019 said:
    Balance of SKILLS is very important and thanks for addressing it.

    I wonder if anything is being done in terms of balance of server populations, because [High] vs [Full+Medium] vs [Very High+Medium] is this week's matchup for us and it's extremely not fun.

    Is it more important to allow lucrative gem store server transfers than to keep players happy?

    Please take a moment to learn and understand how links and matchups work before coming in here to complain.

    ^ Another derailing post - Anet
    Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs - Thieves
    A skill overpowered? just nerf their dodge, balanced. - Anet
    There's no power creep you just don't recognize more people hitting you - Flat Earther

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 16, 2020

    'Been using it on deadeye for so long 😂😂'

    'this sigil really makes my s/p build shine. it's true not many know about it ;)'

    'Lel, been using this forever. Bought a ton of celerity when it came out. BTW getting it nerfed won't really change anything'

    (I no longer blame Thief Profession being Toxic, Anet is fully responsible for it, they allow it, they promote it, they encourage it by continuing to ignore our concerns.... so therefore, as result, we open our eyes, move on)

    Enjoy and have a good day

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2020

    @Burnfall.9573 Ofc Anet knows lol.... lots of mechanics and bugs can be legally exploited and thats what game is about since launch l2exploit and overperformance yourself even in some spvp tournament a group was using glitched sigils, only few knew, devs didnt fixed and alowed the team to use them knowing they were using the 2nd invisible effect.

    BTW:
    Quickness mass spiked is used to lag enemey and creates game desync issues(been always used for this effect when used on zerg and its one of the reason skill lag exists), any idea if this is being taking care from devs, since they were improving some skills that were creating this kind of effect?

    Should quickess be limited to player rather than aoe stacking if performance issues cant be resolved?
    Should it be an effect like superspeed?

  • Mitsen.3247Mitsen.3247 Member
    edited January 26, 2020

    I am wvw user
    I think the specializations(talents) that exist, through are better than ever at this time.
    It would be advisable to adapt those specializations that are not used in most cases{ make new sustain builds?? } or to add a younger one as well as newer secondary skills ( at q,e,r buttons).
    to radically change something that has pleased many users who have been here for many years, and I don't know if they are considered wise.
    put in new additions and let the user decide which cases to use.
    I mean don't change anything who keep, old players even today!
    Remember when you put in, took out and put back(again) the desert map?
    We all learn from our mistakes, and the next time we have wiser choices.
    At least that is my opinion.
    maybe when will come(patch),it will be the best of all previous...(Let's hope)

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 27, 2020

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    @Burnfall.9573 Ofc Anet knows lol.... lots of mechanics and bugs can be legally exploited and thats what game is about since launch l2exploit and overperformance yourself even in some spvp tournament a group was using glitched sigils, only few knew, devs didnt fixed and alowed the team to use them knowing they were using the 2nd invisible effect.

    BTW:
    Quickness mass spiked is used to lag enemey and creates game desync issues(been always used for this effect when used on zerg and its one of the reason skill lag exists), any idea if this is being taking care from devs, since they were improving some skills that were creating this kind of effect?

    Should quickess be limited to player rather than aoe stacking if performance issues cant be resolved?
    Should it be an effect like superspeed?

    +1
    Aeolus i completely agree with everything you said. I believe quickness should be limited to individual player and to not be stackable. Superspeed should also be affected by individual players as well, i believe that would help resolve some of the performance issues.

    In fact, i found something quite in line with what you said and what we continual to agree on.

    -+1 shotting has reached new boundaries; PvP>WvW>PvE>Fractal-

    really, isn't that what Toxicity does.....it spreads everywhere?

    Here is a perfect example of traps being stacked resulting in nearly +1 shotting a fractal boss- this is a level 99 fractal, how could this be?
    also, i do not believe anything is being done about because it is only getting worse because Anet allows it

    take a look

    (by the way, this has been going on for a while as Anet refuses to address Toxic +1 shotting. They are not the first ones to do so, there are many more. i encourage everyone to respect the the streamer and his team players)

    'What You Permit, You Promote'