perm stealth

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@kash.9213 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Salt Mode.3780 said:

@Raiden The Beast.3016 said:It is okey for us theefs as long as we get moar dmg and much more substain when out of stealth

Maybe perhaps stop running SA and you will get dmg.

Spoken like someone who doesnt know thief. Spoiler: SA is the highest damage traitline in its slot. It replaced DA after DA was nerfed so hard that it does less damage than SA. Any other traitline you choose will

lower

your damage.

Naw man raw damage both DA and CS out damage SA, CS by a large margin. SA is taken more for its small damage gain but huge utility. Damage from venous and leech arnt very great but combine it with the utility the line gives u and it definitely lends to the thief being more prepared for more situations than the other lines especially with the added sustainability with the high stealth access it grants.

I take DA and CS in my core build but if I wanted to sustain myself and keep pressuring consistently in different scale fights I'd leech and syphon with SA. Some kits push SA into that area where it's going to have to be dealt with, not so much other trait lines. For raw damage when I can't funnel and drag some people I'm with you though, and SA takes a bit of a dive if one or two people can keep tethered to you out of radius, that's just a little hard to do against dagger/pistol.

Exactly! SA gives u the utility and sustainability to provide more damage thru being able to stay in the fight longer where as with CS u do more burst but can't stick around to long to continue pressure due to the drop in sustainability and utility.

[Skada.1362]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"Skada.1362" said:cap all stealth in game to 3 sec /thread. thieves don't need more than 3 sec at a time to survive, source? SD thieves/blinds. you get 5 sec blind per shadowshot which is omegalul op so thieves will be just fine. honestly as SA DP dash you, most of the time, don't even need to stack stealth to obliterate people simply dash around and land shadowshots then heartseekers. auto in black powder gg ez mode.

Capping stealth duration is a good idea, but 3 is too low. It also breaks utilities like Shadow Refuge entirely. 6 baseline, and whatever Shadow Refuges max duration is for Shadow Refuge seems reasonable though. Also, you do know that blind is a one-time thing? It being 1 second or 5 second doesnt matter, its why Shadowshots blind is pretty pathetic.

change the traits that buff stealth in shadow arts to like increased life leech and kitten like that to improve their sustain a bit. ez fix really

Those don't really matter for thief all that much (or at all), so sure, remove the increased stealth duration and keep only the "when in stealth gain X" traits. Oh and I guess give thief some damage again. Without permastealth oneshots, we dont need to keep their damage down.

Change refuge to do something else then, something nice and good. And regarding blinds, especially shadowshot blind.. yea im familiar with how it works i got 6000~ hours with the d/p set and 5 seconds duration is obnoxiously broken considering how often its used, it should be 2 seconds, duration matters. I share the same opinion for the engi trait Flashbang. Blinds should be used more skillfully to actively avoid/counter an incoming attack, but as it is now you can basically just drown your opponent in near perma blinds. Honestly in most of my fights, as SA D/p dash, i don't need stealth, i can simply destroy people using only dash, shadowshots, the occasional swipe (which dont even have to land to get huge value because of hidden thief lmaoooo) some heartseekers and some autoattacks while camping a black powder. The blind spam carries HARD.

tdlr shadow arts offers way too much stealth, and the d/p set offers way too much blinds. And the combination of the 2 creates a broken and obnoxious build that nobody, except sa d/p mains who wants easy low effort gameplay, enjoys. 99% of the playerbase wants this shit gone. oh and the people in this thread claiming s/d is bad seriously need to l2p.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@Caedmon.6798 said:Many great suggestions from people who never played thief and want to see it destroyed,much wow.

d/p, s/d, s/p, p/d, staff, dont need high stealth uptime to be effective. Its only dumb gimmick builds like SA rifle DE and smoke field spamming bound DD that have completely 1 dimensional gameplay centered around constantly stealthing.

How many of the non stealth thief builds are competitive, u see any in mats? Really doesn't matter whether a thief build relies on stealth or not they will always get complained about due to the rogue archetypes design. Sd visble-nerfed it, barely seen these days, sp viable- nerfed it, barely seen these days, staff build-nerfed it, barely seen these days. Those three builds didn't utilize stealth yet when they were viable the non thief players whined until the devs caved and nerfed them. Dagger dagger is gbage for yrs and yrs now. So now dp is used BECAUSE its high stealth access and blinds but without the high stealth if u actually look at each skill in dp kit they are not that great. Hs hits hard if enemy low hp, ss hits hard and blinds, headshot is .5 daze for perfect timing interups(lolz), blinding powder is low damage blind field and lastly autos are weak. Without high stealth access dp would need a full rework to not suck even worse than the other less played kits lol.Maybe nerf stealth access but buff the other non stealth kits back up as well. U guys won't like that idea as that still would leave thief in existence lol.

There is a big difference between using stealth for disengage, burst, hiding rotations, and using stealth to roam around perma invis and only become visible to pick on targets that have no counterplay. d/p has been meta in spvp for ages and seen lots of mat play, and its been meta in wvw roaming since forever. The only reason its not as common in spvp now is because rev is outperforming pretty much every roamer. Condi thief has had a number of effective builds in spvp lately. DE has always been a niche off meta spec that works well vs certain comps. Staff has again always been a niche spec that isnt really suited to spvp, but it has had a strong presence in gvg and zerging for a long time. s/d is still a solid build even though its not meta since it has better mobility than any other spec.

Thief was never meant to be a strong duelist or teamfighter. The entire class is designed around being highly mobile and being able to pick what fights suit them best. If you gave thief the same dps and sustain as other roamers like rev or holo they would be insanely op unless you added more counters to stealth, cast times and telegraphs to skills like steal, headshot, reduced their mobility or increased initiative costs even more etc. Perma stealth is a lazy mechanic that makes for incredibly boring 1 sided fights. Either you have the means to reveal or burst them down, or you lose/stalemate.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Salt Mode.3780 said:

@"Raiden The Beast.3016" said:It is okey for us theefs as long as we get moar dmg and much more substain when out of stealth

Maybe perhaps stop running SA and you will get dmg.

Spoken like someone who doesnt know thief. Spoiler: SA is the highest damage traitline in its slot. It replaced DA after DA was nerfed so hard that it does less damage than SA. Any other traitline you choose will

lower

your damage.

Naw man raw damage both DA and CS out damage SA, CS by a large margin. SA is taken more for its small damage gain but huge utility. Damage from venous and leech arnt very great but combine it with the utility the line gives u and it definitely lends to the thief being more prepared for more situations than the other lines especially with the added sustainability with the high stealth access it grants.

On paper, but not in practice. In practice you don't get enough condis on the enemy for the Exploit Weakness trait to give you enough damage, and executioner is only active when you dont need the damage anymore. CS would do more damage, but its modifiers are turned inactive way too quickly. Its good on exactly rifle because rifle avoids that issue (which is why Rifle is the only weapon where CS > SA), but on D/P, SA will just do more damage in most scenarios. The damage is not as small as you think, its around 600+ damage that bypasses armour, thats more than what DA will usually do.

I play CS over SA on both staff and dp dd, on staff for obvious reasons and on dp cuz I prefer high risk high damage playstyle so when i back stab, HS or SS i do almost 1.5-2 x the damage on those bursts with CA than I do on SA. my sustain and utility take a huge hit but I down players far faster. SA provides far less risk for almost as much reward which is over all a better scenario in most situations, I just prefer my skills to be more burst heavy and impact full when the do connect vs the idea of being a bit less impact full but being more dependable as far as connecting.

On Staff SA is worse, given you dont use stealth on it, but thats where you use DA. D/P uses SA, its better. And even best case scenario with CS (which is "none of the modifiers turned off like they usually do), you will at most do roughly 30% more damage, ish. Not 1.5 or 2 times.

on average with SA/zerk/divinity i get 2.5-3.5k backstabs, anywhere between 1.5-4k heartseekers depending on enemy hp and SS 1.5-3.5K. Now on CS I get 3k-6 average bsckstab, 2-6k HS and 2.5-4.5k SS. Thing I've found is with CS u hit the higher crit numbers far more often than SA. Its not just that u get higher bursts with CA but also that u get the big crits far more often.Again I agree SA is a better over all trait line but as far as pure dps gain per time spent I feel CS provides more burst damage on even a dp build.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@Caedmon.6798 said:Many great suggestions from people who never played thief and want to see it destroyed,much wow.

d/p, s/d, s/p, p/d, staff, dont need high stealth uptime to be effective. Its only dumb gimmick builds like SA rifle DE and smoke field spamming bound DD that have completely 1 dimensional gameplay centered around constantly stealthing.

How many of the non stealth thief builds are competitive, u see any in mats? Really doesn't matter whether a thief build relies on stealth or not they will always get complained about due to the rogue archetypes design. Sd visble-nerfed it, barely seen these days, sp viable- nerfed it, barely seen these days, staff build-nerfed it, barely seen these days. Those three builds didn't utilize stealth yet when they were viable the non thief players whined until the devs caved and nerfed them. Dagger dagger is gbage for yrs and yrs now. So now dp is used BECAUSE its high stealth access and blinds but without the high stealth if u actually look at each skill in dp kit they are not that great. Hs hits hard if enemy low hp, ss hits hard and blinds, headshot is .5 daze for perfect timing interups(lolz), blinding powder is low damage blind field and lastly autos are weak. Without high stealth access dp would need a full rework to not suck even worse than the other less played kits lol.Maybe nerf stealth access but buff the other non stealth kits back up as well. U guys won't like that idea as that still would leave thief in existence lol.

There is a big difference between using stealth for disengage, burst, hiding rotations, and using stealth to roam around perma invis and only become visible to pick on targets that have no counterplay. d/p has been meta in spvp for ages and seen lots of mat play, and its been meta in wvw roaming since forever. The only reason its not as common in spvp now is because rev is outperforming pretty much every roamer. Condi thief has had a number of effective builds in spvp lately. DE has always been a niche off meta spec that works well vs certain comps. Staff has again always been a niche spec that isnt really suited to spvp, but it has had a strong presence in gvg and zerging for a long time. s/d is still a solid build even though its not meta since it has better mobility than any other spec.

Thief was never meant to be a strong duelist or teamfighter. The entire class is designed around being highly mobile and being able to pick what fights suit them best. If you gave thief the same dps and sustain as other roamers like rev or holo they would be insanely op unless you added more counters to stealth, cast times and telegraphs to skills like steal, headshot, reduced their mobility or increased initiative costs even more etc. Perma stealth is a lazy mechanic that makes for incredibly boring 1 sided fights. Either you have the means to reveal or burst them down, or you lose/stalemate.

I disagree, thief is meant to be like all rogue specs in every single mmo in existence, that being highly mobile low hp=armor burst class that utilizes a hit and run playstyles and needs to use stealth and ports etc to survive, as all rogues do. Gw2 community is thee only community that thinks cuz a rogue has mobility it should have low damage. Rogues generally always have one of if not highest bursts in the game but has to leave soon after and can't stick around long when pressured which allows the engaging and disengaging potential. Rogues and their design isn't a hew concept. Xlasses like u say that can't disengage,engage or pick targets so easily are given more in fight sustain and usually don't burst quite as hard as the rogue but can stay around to produce more damge than the rogue due to being able to put out sustained pressure. Right now the classes that can do what I just mentioned can out burst thieves which is outa balance. Bottom line is players hate rogue designs but for them to work they gotta be able to do the things u hate which is pick targets and get in do a big burst and get out and if the make a mistake getting out they get punished or if the player does something defensively to evade or make the rogues burst inconsequential than rogue dies or leaves.U can't design a class that due to its high mobility can't do enough burst to down anyone except those who are almost dead, that would be silly. What u can do is design a high mobility class that does high burst damage but front loads it all in first few secs of a fight and u catch the enemy of guard and hit ur burst they SOULD be hurting and be impactful enough if successful tp give the rogue option to risk staying to try and finish the fight at risk or leave, hence the mobility. No class should have to wander around looking for a already injured enemy or a outnumbered situation to be effective, again be silly. Teef does out numbered cuz its mobility lends it to be able to cross the map to join them faster than other classes (not by much these days) not cuz it was designed to only do so therefore it doesn't need high burst lolTheres a difference between a class doing a roll cuz its design makes it good at it and a class designed to be fast but hit so little it needs teammates to down anything so just does outnumbered fights.As it stands even when a teef outnumbered with u it still takes a while to get a down vs some builds.Also having high burst hit and run design like all rogues is not the same as being a duelist nor does it make it a good duelist class. A proper designed rogue burst if successful should significantly impact a duelist builds hp but if i can't secure the kill quickly or if the duelist does a defensive action to mitigate the burst the rogue shouldn't be able to partake in a long duel beating the duelist, which they cant unless duelist player is out played hard. As it stands u can build a high sustain duelist and not mitigate a teefs burst and ur hp will be barely chipped down and would crush the thief in a longer fight, thats dumb. If u catch a duelist off guard a thief/rogue should do some major front load burst damage then have to back off.Balance in gw2 is all over the place, its no surprise its population in pvp is so low.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@Caedmon.6798 said:Many great suggestions from people who never played thief and want to see it destroyed,much wow.

d/p, s/d, s/p, p/d, staff, dont need high stealth uptime to be effective. Its only dumb gimmick builds like SA rifle DE and smoke field spamming bound DD that have completely 1 dimensional gameplay centered around constantly stealthing.

How many of the non stealth thief builds are competitive, u see any in mats? Really doesn't matter whether a thief build relies on stealth or not they will always get complained about due to the rogue archetypes design. Sd visble-nerfed it, barely seen these days, sp viable- nerfed it, barely seen these days, staff build-nerfed it, barely seen these days. Those three builds didn't utilize stealth yet when they were viable the non thief players whined until the devs caved and nerfed them. Dagger dagger is gbage for yrs and yrs now. So now dp is used BECAUSE its high stealth access and blinds but without the high stealth if u actually look at each skill in dp kit they are not that great. Hs hits hard if enemy low hp, ss hits hard and blinds, headshot is .5 daze for perfect timing interups(lolz), blinding powder is low damage blind field and lastly autos are weak. Without high stealth access dp would need a full rework to not suck even worse than the other less played kits lol.Maybe nerf stealth access but buff the other non stealth kits back up as well. U guys won't like that idea as that still would leave thief in existence lol.

There is a big difference between using stealth for disengage, burst, hiding rotations, and using stealth to roam around perma invis and only become visible to pick on targets that have no counterplay. d/p has been meta in spvp for ages and seen lots of mat play, and its been meta in wvw roaming since forever. The only reason its not as common in spvp now is because rev is outperforming pretty much every roamer. Condi thief has had a number of effective builds in spvp lately. DE has always been a niche off meta spec that works well vs certain comps. Staff has again always been a niche spec that isnt really suited to spvp, but it has had a strong presence in gvg and zerging for a long time. s/d is still a solid build even though its not meta since it has better mobility than any other spec.

Thief was never meant to be a strong duelist or teamfighter. The entire class is designed around being highly mobile and being able to pick what fights suit them best. If you gave thief the same dps and sustain as other roamers like rev or holo they would be insanely op unless you added more counters to stealth, cast times and telegraphs to skills like steal, headshot, reduced their mobility or increased initiative costs even more etc. Perma stealth is a lazy mechanic that makes for incredibly boring 1 sided fights. Either you have the means to reveal or burst them down, or you lose/stalemate.

perma stealth wouldn't need to be a thing if thief was given a proper burst potential like a hit and run playstyles dictates. I think most thieves would prefer timing their ambushes to catch the enemy at the right time or when their off guard to land a massive burst and be at high risk if it fails, instead of the now chip ur enemy down while having low risk to stealth disengage and re engage multiple times.Stealth should be hard capped at 6 secs and restackable with a 1.5 sec reveal on any attack attempt missed or blocked but teef should also have its burst numbers buffed to actually feel like a rogue class.I can go into wvw right now on my Soulbeast with pack runes and marauder gear and do 9k mails back to back with hilt bash in between and 10k WI after maul not to mention my burst with rapid fire yet on my teef feel zerkers and scholars with a all damage build I can do the 8k sometimes 9k on low armored enemies on backstabs and 6-7k heartseekers yet my ranger has great mobility and 23k hp vs 13k hp on teef IF im using brawlers resilience, 11 k if on core. As I said the burst damages in gw2 between the class types are completely f...cked up in this game, again pops low for a reason.

[kash.9213]

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@Caedmon.6798 said:Many great suggestions from people who never played thief and want to see it destroyed,much wow.

d/p, s/d, s/p, p/d, staff, dont need high stealth uptime to be effective. Its only dumb gimmick builds like SA rifle DE and smoke field spamming bound DD that have completely 1 dimensional gameplay centered around constantly stealthing.

How many of the non stealth thief builds are competitive, u see any in mats? Really doesn't matter whether a thief build relies on stealth or not they will always get complained about due to the rogue archetypes design. Sd visble-nerfed it, barely seen these days, sp viable- nerfed it, barely seen these days, staff build-nerfed it, barely seen these days. Those three builds didn't utilize stealth yet when they were viable the non thief players whined until the devs caved and nerfed them. Dagger dagger is gbage for yrs and yrs now. So now dp is used BECAUSE its high stealth access and blinds but without the high stealth if u actually look at each skill in dp kit they are not that great. Hs hits hard if enemy low hp, ss hits hard and blinds, headshot is .5 daze for perfect timing interups(lolz), blinding powder is low damage blind field and lastly autos are weak. Without high stealth access dp would need a full rework to not suck even worse than the other less played kits lol.Maybe nerf stealth access but buff the other non stealth kits back up as well. U guys won't like that idea as that still would leave thief in existence lol.

There is a big difference between using stealth for disengage, burst, hiding rotations, and using stealth to roam around perma invis and only become visible to pick on targets that have no counterplay. d/p has been meta in spvp for ages and seen lots of mat play, and its been meta in wvw roaming since forever. The only reason its not as common in spvp now is because rev is outperforming pretty much every roamer. Condi thief has had a number of effective builds in spvp lately. DE has always been a niche off meta spec that works well vs certain comps. Staff has again always been a niche spec that isnt really suited to spvp, but it has had a strong presence in gvg and zerging for a long time. s/d is still a solid build even though its not meta since it has better mobility than any other spec.

Thief was never meant to be a strong duelist or teamfighter. The entire class is designed around being highly mobile and being able to pick what fights suit them best. If you gave thief the same dps and sustain as other roamers like rev or holo they would be insanely op unless you added more counters to stealth, cast times and telegraphs to skills like steal, headshot, reduced their mobility or increased initiative costs even more etc. Perma stealth is a lazy mechanic that makes for incredibly boring 1 sided fights. Either you have the means to reveal or burst them down, or you lose/stalemate.

If thief was never meant to be a strong duelist it's animations and potential combos wouldn't exist or would look very different. If it wasn't meant to be a team fighter it wouldn't have the Fields it does or the group oriented utilities, skills, and traits it has. One kit has high mobility and is mostly a utility kit. Stealth travel isn't mobility. A thief can set up a clean Backstab or other Stealth attack. The fight they get out of that isn't theirs to pick though, that's largely up to build choices they run into.

[Salt Mode.3780]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Salt Mode.3780 said:

@"Raiden The Beast.3016" said:It is okey for us theefs as long as we get moar dmg and much more substain when out of stealth

Maybe perhaps stop running SA and you will get dmg.

Spoken like someone who doesnt know thief. Spoiler: SA is the highest damage traitline in its slot. It replaced DA after DA was nerfed so hard that it does less damage than SA. Any other traitline you choose will

lower

your damage.

Shadow arts traitline is a pure defensive/utility traitline, the damage you are talking about is being able to disengage and reengage. It is a low risk traitline that allows thieves to make mistakes without cost. If you mean you not dying and being able to survive to do more damage later on then yes it is the "highest damage traitline". This traitline after buffs has been the handicap for thieves in WvW esp paired with d/p. I don't know what world you live in when SA does not offer any dmg modifiers to increase your direct dmg.

[frareanselm.1925]

Look how the Op threw the bait and never answered anymore.

[kash.9213]

@Salt Mode.3780 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Salt Mode.3780 said:

@"Raiden The Beast.3016" said:It is okey for us theefs as long as we get moar dmg and much more substain when out of stealth

Maybe perhaps stop running SA and you will get dmg.

Spoken like someone who doesnt know thief. Spoiler: SA is the highest damage traitline in its slot. It replaced DA after DA was nerfed so hard that it does less damage than SA. Any other traitline you choose will

lower

your damage.

Shadow arts traitline is a pure defensive/utility traitline, the damage you are talking about is being able to disengage and reengage. It is a low risk traitline that allows thieves to make mistakes without cost. If you mean you not dying and being able to survive to do more damage later on then yes it is the "highest damage traitline". This traitline after buffs has been the handicap for thieves in WvW esp paired with d/p. I don't know what world you live in when SA does not offer any dmg modifiers to increase your direct dmg.

They said damage, they didn't say direct damage. You tried to walk that back with that detail because you were aware of that. The damage they're talking about is leech and syphon damage which depending on the kit would allow you to not have to disengage and engage often. The traitline doesn't allow thieves to make mistakes without cost. It allows some kits to compound those effects by using skills that have defense baked in, which is why some kits combined with some trait lines are ongoing problems.

[avey.4201]

When leaving stealth you should be given 2.5-3 seconds of reveal, thief can burst, and reenter stealth faster then you can complete dodging their attack, used to spend 5 minutes repeatedly dodging DE shots as good luck casting DH F1 on a thief in stealth.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Salt Mode.3780 said:

@"Raiden The Beast.3016" said:It is okey for us theefs as long as we get moar dmg and much more substain when out of stealth

Maybe perhaps stop running SA and you will get dmg.

Spoken like someone who doesnt know thief. Spoiler: SA is the highest damage traitline in its slot. It replaced DA after DA was nerfed so hard that it does less damage than SA. Any other traitline you choose will

lower

your damage.

Naw man raw damage both DA and CS out damage SA, CS by a large margin. SA is taken more for its small damage gain but huge utility. Damage from venous and leech arnt very great but combine it with the utility the line gives u and it definitely lends to the thief being more prepared for more situations than the other lines especially with the added sustainability with the high stealth access it grants.

On paper, but not in practice. In practice you don't get enough condis on the enemy for the Exploit Weakness trait to give you enough damage, and executioner is only active when you dont need the damage anymore. CS would do more damage, but its modifiers are turned inactive way too quickly. Its good on exactly rifle because rifle avoids that issue (which is why Rifle is the only weapon where CS > SA), but on D/P, SA will just do more damage in most scenarios. The damage is not as small as you think, its around 600+ damage that bypasses armour, thats more than what DA will usually do.

I play CS over SA on both staff and dp dd, on staff for obvious reasons and on dp cuz I prefer high risk high damage playstyle so when i back stab, HS or SS i do almost 1.5-2 x the damage on those bursts with CA than I do on SA. my sustain and utility take a huge hit but I down players far faster. SA provides far less risk for almost as much reward which is over all a better scenario in most situations, I just prefer my skills to be more burst heavy and impact full when the do connect vs the idea of being a bit less impact full but being more dependable as far as connecting.

On Staff SA is worse, given you dont use stealth on it, but thats where you use DA. D/P uses SA, its better. And even best case scenario with CS (which is "none of the modifiers turned off like they usually do), you will at most do roughly 30% more damage, ish. Not 1.5 or 2 times.

on average with SA/zerk/divinity i get 2.5-3.5k backstabs, anywhere between 1.5-4k heartseekers depending on enemy hp and SS 1.5-3.5K. Now on CS I get 3k-6 average bsckstab, 2-6k HS and 2.5-4.5k SS. Thing I've found is with CS u hit the higher crit numbers far more often than SA. Its not just that u get higher bursts with CA but also that u get the big crits far more often.

You have ot keep in mind that SA also gives you about 600+ armor unnegetable damage. The more armour the enemy has, the further SA pulls ahead. And on CS, the problem is if the condition is not active (Very often the case), it just doesnt add any damage.

Again I agree SA is a better over all trait line but as far as pure dps gain per time spent I feel CS provides more burst damage on even a dp build.

In some situations, in other it provides less. Its very inconsistent, and that inconsistency makes the average case worse.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Salt Mode.3780 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Salt Mode.3780 said:

@"Raiden The Beast.3016" said:It is okey for us theefs as long as we get moar dmg and much more substain when out of stealth

Maybe perhaps stop running SA and you will get dmg.

Spoken like someone who doesnt know thief. Spoiler: SA is the highest damage traitline in its slot. It replaced DA after DA was nerfed so hard that it does less damage than SA. Any other traitline you choose will

lower

your damage.

Shadow arts traitline is a pure defensive/utility traitline, the damage you are talking about is being able to disengage and reengage. It is a low risk traitline that allows thieves to make mistakes without cost. If you mean you not dying and being able to survive to do more damage later on then yes it is the "highest damage traitline". This traitline after buffs has been the handicap for thieves in WvW esp paired with d/p. I don't know what world you live in when SA does not offer any dmg modifiers to increase your direct dmg.

The only people saying its a pure defensive traitline are those who don't know why its picked. It was picked to replace DD in core burst builds that didnt give a rats ass about defense. It was picked for damage. It just adds more damage in the form of lifeleech traits. Traitlines dont have "risks", and SA does next to nothing for survivability (if you want to survive, you disengage with shortbow 5, all trying to stealth is going to do is kill you when you otherwise wouldnt have died). Its the highest damage traitlines because the life siphons damage is consistent and as a result its average damage is, quite literally, higher than CS or DA. Modifiers arent the only way of increasing damage.

[Captain Kuro.8937]

@"Skada.1362" said:change the traits that buff stealth in shadow arts to like increased life leech and kitten like that to improve their sustain a bit. ez fix really+1Also modifiers deal less damage if he have chosen the Defensive Traits l(like the Daredevil 30% damage reduction traits) , and instead increase the damage for Core

Also put a hardcap/ for damage reduction modifiers in WvWvW , to avoid Bunkerwars .For example 30% damage reduction from Daredevil ,+ 33% from https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flickering_Shadows + (stolen) 33% Protection + other -10% WvWvW buff , are hardcapped at 30% .Anymore and you get -100/200 strength scalable de-buffs

edit:Or introduce a "Mentality" meter ,where a specific attack gaines bonus damage effect (going to the "Berseker" side) , as the battle progresses(10sec) (for example Heartseeker does 10% of your max HP +normal damage , that can be spammed) .And based for each Damage Reduction Modifier you have , the Bar is Shorter/grey-out , or start reversing going to to "High Toughness/Low Mentally" meter , so you get self-conditioned/damage/boons dont work/move slolwlyStaying on stealth , more than 2 sec counts as a damage reduction trait(each time)

[Caedmon.6798]

Most of the complaints coming from people about "perm stealth" and "Thief is op" is coming from baddies running in groups getting supported by forever heals/blocks/reflects/condi cleanses. But if they do get picked out,THIEF IS OP!!!!!! While they run away in a straight line popping all their defensive utils and not bothering to counter back. Get your game up instead. Stop relying on others to save your ass.

FYI Most good thieves running solo have hundreds,if not thousands of hours experience on that class and having dueled every class on every spec and every build possible. If you aint up to that task,stop complaining. Otherwise learn how to counter because it can Easily be shut down.

[Salt Mode.3780]

@"Caedmon.6798" said:Most of the complaints coming from people about "perm stealth" and "Thief is op" is coming from baddies running in groups getting supported by forever heals/blocks/reflects/condi cleanses. But if they do get picked out,THIEF IS OP!!!!!! While they run away in a straight line popping all their defensive utils and not bothering to counter back. Get your game up instead. Stop relying on others to save your kitten.

FYI Most good thieves running solo have hundreds,if not thousands of hours experience on that class and having dueled every class on every spec and every build possible. If you aint up to that task,stop complaining. Otherwise learn how to counter because it can Easily be shut down.

Perma Stealth paired with mobility is a problem. The ability to disengage and reengage at will is what most classes cannot do or afford to do. In a roaming situation against same skill level you will never be able to beat a thief that is just fact.

[Salt Mode.3780]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Salt Mode.3780 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Salt Mode.3780 said:

@"Raiden The Beast.3016" said:It is okey for us theefs as long as we get moar dmg and much more substain when out of stealth

Maybe perhaps stop running SA and you will get dmg.

Spoken like someone who doesnt know thief. Spoiler: SA is the highest damage traitline in its slot. It replaced DA after DA was nerfed so hard that it does less damage than SA. Any other traitline you choose will

lower

your damage.

Shadow arts traitline is a pure defensive/utility traitline, the damage you are talking about is being able to disengage and reengage. It is a low risk traitline that allows thieves to make mistakes without cost. If you mean you not dying and being able to survive to do more damage later on then yes it is the "highest damage traitline". This traitline after buffs has been the handicap for thieves in WvW esp paired with d/p. I don't know what world you live in when SA does not offer any dmg modifiers to increase your direct dmg.

The only people saying its a pure defensive traitline are those who don't know why its picked. It was picked to replace DD in core burst builds that didnt give a rats kitten about defense. It was picked for damage. It just adds more damage in the form of lifeleech traits. Traitlines dont have "risks", and SA does next to nothing for survivability (if you want to survive, you disengage with shortbow 5, all trying to stealth is going to do is kill you when you otherwise wouldnt have died). Its the highest damage traitlines because the life siphons damage is consistent and as a result its average damage is, quite literally, higher than CS or DA. Modifiers arent the only way of increasing damage.

So again ill say thief is fine aside from SA being overperforming and you literally are proving that. It has the superior defensive capabilities and damage.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

@"Caedmon.6798" said:Most of the complaints coming from people about "perm stealth" and "Thief is op" is coming from baddies running in groups getting supported by forever heals/blocks/reflects/condi cleanses. But if they do get picked out,THIEF IS OP!!!!!! While they run away in a straight line popping all their defensive utils and not bothering to counter back. Get your game up instead. Stop relying on others to save your kitten.

FYI Most good thieves running solo have hundreds,if not thousands of hours experience on that class and having dueled every class on every spec and every build possible. If you aint up to that task,stop complaining. Otherwise learn how to counter because it can Easily be shut down.

Most thieves defending perma stealth are baddies who cant survive and get kills without it. Only some builds can counter it. Others just chase it around for 5 minutes before giving up because its not worth their time to fight. Doesnt matter if its wvw or spvp, high stealth uptime in combat is bad for the game.

[Raiden The Beast.3016]

Change title into: wvw 100% reveal map, stealth is dead ... but who cares wvw is dead anyway, roaming since years and blob play wasnt skillfull at all.

To bring reveal cancer in line in wvw other classes should have a disadvantage as well.

In reveal zone:Teef revealRanger no petMes no clones...

Fair enough, stop BS on teef when u running blob build and teef catch u alone. W8 for ur blob buddies and gud ...

Btw, delete mounts or make mounts has 1HP for sure no dodges

[UNOwen.7132]

@Salt Mode.3780 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Salt Mode.3780 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Salt Mode.3780 said:

@"Raiden The Beast.3016" said:It is okey for us theefs as long as we get moar dmg and much more substain when out of stealth

Maybe perhaps stop running SA and you will get dmg.

Spoken like someone who doesnt know thief. Spoiler: SA is the highest damage traitline in its slot. It replaced DA after DA was nerfed so hard that it does less damage than SA. Any other traitline you choose will

lower

your damage.

Shadow arts traitline is a pure defensive/utility traitline, the damage you are talking about is being able to disengage and reengage. It is a low risk traitline that allows thieves to make mistakes without cost. If you mean you not dying and being able to survive to do more damage later on then yes it is the "highest damage traitline". This traitline after buffs has been the handicap for thieves in WvW esp paired with d/p. I don't know what world you live in when SA does not offer any dmg modifiers to increase your direct dmg.

The only people saying its a pure defensive traitline are those who don't know why its picked. It was picked to replace DD in core burst builds that didnt give a rats kitten about defense. It was picked for damage. It just adds more damage in the form of lifeleech traits. Traitlines dont have "risks", and SA does next to nothing for survivability (if you want to survive, you disengage with shortbow 5, all trying to stealth is going to do is kill you when you otherwise wouldnt have died). Its the highest damage traitlines because the life siphons damage is consistent and as a result its average damage is, quite literally, higher than CS or DA. Modifiers arent the only way of increasing damage.

So again ill say thief is fine aside from SA being overperforming and you literally are proving that. It has the superior defensive capabilities and damage.

SA isnt overperforming, DA and CS (though CS is just always bad) are underperforming. The only reason SA is being picked is because DA was overnerfed. SA also has rubbish defensive capabilities. It gives a bit of healing, but thats already less than DA, and thats all it does for defense. DA at least has weakness.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@"Caedmon.6798" said:Most of the complaints coming from people about "perm stealth" and "Thief is op" is coming from baddies running in groups getting supported by forever heals/blocks/reflects/condi cleanses. But if they do get picked out,THIEF IS OP!!!!!! While they run away in a straight line popping all their defensive utils and not bothering to counter back. Get your game up instead. Stop relying on others to save your kitten.

FYI Most good thieves running solo have hundreds,if not thousands of hours experience on that class and having dueled every class on every spec and every build possible. If you aint up to that task,stop complaining. Otherwise learn how to counter because it can Easily be shut down.

Most thieves defending perma stealth are baddies who cant survive and get kills without it. Only some builds can counter it. Others just chase it around for 5 minutes before giving up because its not worth their time to fight. Doesnt matter if its wvw or spvp, high stealth uptime in combat is bad for the game.

No, high stealth uptime in combat is fine, it comes with a number of major weaknesses that make it actually not good right now. Its high stealth uptime out of combat thats the issue, hence why stealth should just get a cap. But even permastealth is bad, its just really annoying and shouldnt be in the game, but it is bad.

[kash.9213]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Salt Mode.3780 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Salt Mode.3780 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Salt Mode.3780 said:

@"Raiden The Beast.3016" said:It is okey for us theefs as long as we get moar dmg and much more substain when out of stealth

Maybe perhaps stop running SA and you will get dmg.

Spoken like someone who doesnt know thief. Spoiler: SA is the highest damage traitline in its slot. It replaced DA after DA was nerfed so hard that it does less damage than SA. Any other traitline you choose will

lower

your damage.

Shadow arts traitline is a pure defensive/utility traitline, the damage you are talking about is being able to disengage and reengage. It is a low risk traitline that allows thieves to make mistakes without cost. If you mean you not dying and being able to survive to do more damage later on then yes it is the "highest damage traitline". This traitline after buffs has been the handicap for thieves in WvW esp paired with d/p. I don't know what world you live in when SA does not offer any dmg modifiers to increase your direct dmg.

The only people saying its a pure defensive traitline are those who don't know why its picked. It was picked to replace DD in core burst builds that didnt give a rats kitten about defense. It was picked for damage. It just adds more damage in the form of lifeleech traits. Traitlines dont have "risks", and SA does next to nothing for survivability (if you want to survive, you disengage with shortbow 5, all trying to stealth is going to do is kill you when you otherwise wouldnt have died). Its the highest damage traitlines because the life siphons damage is consistent and as a result its average damage is, quite literally, higher than CS or DA. Modifiers arent the only way of increasing damage.

So again ill say thief is fine aside from SA being overperforming and you literally are proving that. It has the superior defensive capabilities and damage.

SA isnt overperforming, DA and CS (though CS is just always bad) are

underperforming

. The only reason SA is being picked is because DA was overnerfed. SA also has rubbish defensive capabilities. It gives a bit of healing, but thats already less than DA, and thats all it does for defense. DA at least has weakness.

I do think SA can get pushed over the top some with something like dagger/pistol, especially if they already have sigil of draining, given the easy utility and combos it has. Rifle is mostly alright but we need something else to replace stealth on dodge, people shouldn't have to play against such a stacked passive combo fed by traits and I'd like to have the Precision without having to manage Reveals when I'd rather not stealth. I'm not too worried about much else though aside from Dash still being kind of dumb since that stealth plus mobility people are on about is expensive and I'd hope they're spending big.

[Quench.7091]

Member when stealth buffs didn't accumulate duration and would only override the weakest active buff? That the devs designed stealth so that it couldn't be permanent? I member.

[MaLong.2079]

Stealth is not just invisibility, it is also invulnerability against many skills that require a target. It is way better than blinding which normally makes only one hit miss. The benefits of chill, immobilize, pull are also often negated if you don't know where your target is to hit them after they are slowed down. In my opinion these some of the reasons why stealth feels unfair in many situations.

[kash.9213]

@MaLong.2079 said:Stealth is not just invisibility, it is also invulnerability against many skills that require a target. It is way better than blinding which normally makes only one hit miss. The benefits of chill, immobilize, pull are also often negated if you don't know where your target is to hit them after they are slowed down. In my opinion these some of the reasons why stealth feels unfair in many situations.

Except Stealth isn't invulnerability. Invulnerability is it's own thing in this game that some builds have, likely not the Stealth build you're talking about. That's called a tradeoff. I continue to hit people who are in Stealth, they don't feel invulnerable. I can try to hit people who are Invulnerable, but they're invulnerable so it doesn't matter. There's a lot of stuff people have that make it difficult to damage them. That creates build choices.