Skyscale quality of life is one thing

[Naxos.2503]

3 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

 

That's a different discussion.  Monetization is necessary and how they should go about it is debateable.  However, I disagree that this qualifies as p2w. 

I'd further add that since the mounts are added in the expansion and anything prior to expansions can be done without mounts, it is a completely bogus statement to say that mounts are p2w.

It is also untrue to say that they're p2c since mounts are flat out required for a lot of the content of Path of Fire. What they are is a Feature.

[BlueJin.4127]

It’s nowhere near P2W. P2W is something where companies intentionally create disparities to force players to buy items for in-game advantages. Skyscale is not a gem store item; it's content in an expansion. Expansions must naturally make additions and improvements for the game to stay alive. Intentional or not, this will naturally lead to advantages for upgraders. If expansions don’t make additions and improvements so that it can cater to players who do not upgrade, that game is unlikely to thrive.

Just like with real life, the in-game world will constantly change and improve. Players who do not upgrade or improve along with the game are not going to be able to stay where they are; they’re going to fall behind. Those who refuse to upgrade are just going to have to accept that. It’s just the natural way of things.

Edited September 8, 2021 by BlueJin.4127

[kharmin.7683]

Pay to win?  Wait, what is it about mounts that cause players to lose GW2?  How does one win the game?

[Xanadrine.4352]

Im working on skyscale now for this account. I can tell you having an account with skyscale and one without the QoL with it far exceeds the account without. There is no doubt skyscale is a legendary mount, its just that dang good. Slogging through meta events while everyone zips above you and they dont have to worry about wasting time on tedious terrain sucks. yes the base mounts can get you most places, but they cant get you there as timely or easy as skyscale. 

[yann.1946]

10 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

 

That's a different discussion. 

Tbh that was the whole discussion, somebody made the claim that the skyscale is more accesible because this was locked behind a paywall vs something else which was deemed inaccesible because it was locked behind gameplay. My confussion was on why that would make the skyscale better as we constantly get people complaining over the fact that X,Y and Z is gemstore.

10 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Monetization is necessary and how they should go about it is debateable.  However, I disagree that this qualifies as p2w. 

I agree, but i never said it was p2w, i said it could be perceived as getting closer to it. Those are completely different statements.

 

 

[Ashen.2907]

On 9/5/2021 at 1:33 AM, yann.1946 said:

That depends how you look at it I guess. 

For some people the skyscale is more then a luxury good, it is an upgrade to the mounts and a gameplay advantage . In that sense it comes close to p2w. 

 

No, it is not a function of how you look at it. The game is a luxury good and everything in it is so as well. Even if it were pay to win it would still be a luxury good.

[Gibson.4036]

It would be a strange MMO if expansions never introduced anything significantly useful so Vanilla won't feel out-convenienced.

[yann.1946]

35 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

 

No, it is not a function of how you look at it. The game is a luxury good and everything in it is so as well. Even if it were pay to win it would still be a luxury good.

I mean, technically you are correct. But it's also the most useless analysis of the situation. 

[Maikimaik.1974]

On 9/6/2021 at 8:43 AM, yann.1946 said:

I agree, but i never said it was p2w, i said it could be perceived as getting closer to it. Those are completely different statements.

Like elite specs, gliding, any other mount, more sources of gold, new stat combinations, new mats, the list goes on.

It's not any more "p2w" than any other expansion feature, so I don't understand why you chose to focus on the Skyscale.

To repeat what I already said a while ago: They're currently giving away the LS4 episodes for free, one at a time. The return achievement (which is WAY less grindy than farming the currency by itself and you only need to reach tier 3) gives you 250 map currency, the exact amount you need to unlock the Skyscale. 

It has never been easier to unlock the Skyscale, so why complain about it now?

Edited September 8, 2021 by Maikimaik.1974

[yann.1946]

1 hour ago, Maikimaik.1974 said:

Like elite specs, gliding, any other mount, more sources of gold, new stat combinations, new mats, the list goes on.

It's not any more "p2w" than any other expansion feature, so I don't understand why you chose to focus on the Skyscale.

To repeat what I already said a while ago: They're currently giving away the LS4 episodes for free, one at a time. The return achievement (which is WAY less grindy than farming the currency by itself and you only need to reach tier 3) gives you 250 map currency, the exact amount you need to unlock the Skyscale. 

It has never been easier to unlock the Skyscale, so why complain about it now?

I see, youre just confused about what i was talking about.

I never complained about the skyscales acquisition method. I was having a conversation with obtena about an argument they used. In that conversation he mentioned how the skyscale was more accesible because it was pay wall locked then another piece of reward we talked about that was mode locked to an "unfun" mode.

 

To this i wondered why paywall locking was more preferable as it appears more closer to p2w. 

 

I hope i cleared up the confusion.

 

(also you have to buy more then an expac to get the skyscale so it desires more purchase than most expac features.)

[Dean Calaway.9718]

[This message is unwelcomed and was removed.]

Edited September 30, 2021 by Dean Calaway.9718

[Gibson.4036]

13 hours ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

I think this is what OP was all about. I stopped playing before PoF so I never saw any mounts, coming back in 2021 I was trying to do the Dragon Bash holos in open world and everyone was running pass me, by the time I got there it was all gone, this was beyond frustrating and personally it didn't made my feel like I should get PoF and mounts, it mostly made me feel like walking away.

I keep going and I have all of them now, Skyscale being the exception (waiting on those Season 4 returns) but even with all the other mounts available (including Roller Beetle) those Skyscales still pull away or at best (worse?) can keep up, there's no easy fix here, they should most definitely NOT be nerfed, but a player on foot has no chance. Not even gonna mention that mastery from Icebrood Saga to use those player placed waypoints...

 

I say a (partial) solution for this would be Advance Raptor Two Player Mount, think about it, every mount in Guild Wars 2 has been designed to fill a niche, without over stepping each other or make one another obsolete, but the Raptor? By the time you get the Griffon, the thing is almost as fast on a straight line as a Raptor, can clear all the same gaps and then some and as an extra bonus can jump as high as a basic Springer, not to mention glide around for longer than the Glider. The Raptor is mostly useless to anyone with access to a Griffon, so why not do something like the Skimmers and add more abilities to it? Having the Raptor be a two player mount wouldn't take away from Skiffs and Siege Turtles, and it would give it some purpose again, being able to help players with no mounts to bring them along those trains would be nothing but positive in my opinion.

Do you mean the jackal? 

[kharmin.7683]

13 hours ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

I say a (partial) solution for this would be Advance Raptor Two Player Mount, think about it, every mount in Guild Wars 2 has been designed to fill a niche, without over stepping each other or make one another obsolete, but the Raptor? By the time you get the Griffon, the thing is almost as fast on a straight line as a Raptor, can clear all the same gaps and then some and as an extra bonus can jump as high as a basic Springer, not to mention glide around for longer than the Glider. The Raptor is mostly useless to anyone with access to a Griffon, so why not do something like the Skimmers and add more abilities to it? Having the Raptor be a two player mount wouldn't take away from Skiffs and Siege Turtles, and it would give it some purpose again, being able to help players with no mounts to bring them along those trains would be nothing but positive in my opinion.

 

21 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Seeing how mounts are technically character transformations, I don't see how passengers could possibly work in the way that things are currently programmed.  Anet would have to re-program mounts from scratch or add specific mounts for passenger-ing (which I still don't see as possible given the current setup).

 

See also https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/101216-how-would-you-like-to-see-passenger-mounts-work/?do=getNewComment

 

Edited September 9, 2021 by kharmin.7683

[Kraggy.4169]

On 8/28/2021 at 9:06 PM, Obfuscate.6430 said:

All of the mounts do this though to a certain degree. Mounts should be disabled in areas where they entirely invalidate movement skills earned with masteries; ie - maps where you needed those masteries specifically to progress and attain goals. A good early example is Dry Top. Another example is Draconis Mons.  

Mounts are OPTIONAL, be my guest not using them .. oh, and there's nothing special about the masteries, it's simply 'time played' on whatever content you like to get XP to complete the tracks.

[AliamRationem.5172]

On 9/8/2021 at 5:05 PM, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

I think this is what OP was all about. I stopped playing before PoF so I never saw any mounts, coming back in 2021 I was trying to do the Dragon Bash holos in open world and everyone was running pass me, by the time I got there it was all gone, this was beyond frustrating and personally it didn't made my feel like I should get PoF and mounts, it mostly made me feel like walking away.

I keep going and I have all of them now, Skyscale being the exception (waiting on those Season 4 returns) but even with all the other mounts available (including Roller Beetle) those Skyscales still pull away or at best (worse?) can keep up, there's no easy fix here, they should most definitely NOT be nerfed, but a player on foot has no chance. Not even gonna mention that mastery from Icebrood Saga to use those player placed waypoints...

 

I say a (partial) solution for this would be Advance Raptor Two Player Mount, think about it, every mount in Guild Wars 2 has been designed to fill a niche, without over stepping each other or make one another obsolete, but the Raptor? By the time you get the Griffon, the thing is almost as fast on a straight line as a Raptor, can clear all the same gaps and then some and as an extra bonus can jump as high as a basic Springer, not to mention glide around for longer than the Glider. The Raptor is mostly useless to anyone with access to a Griffon, so why not do something like the Skimmers and add more abilities to it? Having the Raptor be a two player mount wouldn't take away from Skiffs and Siege Turtles, and it would give it some purpose again, being able to help players with no mounts to bring them along those trains would be nothing but positive in my opinion.

 

I don't disagree with the idea of adding features to mounts, but your understanding of these masteries seems a bit off to me.

The legion waystation mastery does not function as a waypoint.  Players cannot teleport to it.

You're also doing it wrong with the raptor.  For most players, raptor is one of the most useful mounts.  It's much faster than the griffon over land, particularly when you chain canyon leaps using the endurance regen skill (you can leap 5 times in a row with it).  It also has the tail pull engage, which is great for initiating combat against groups of lesser enemies.

Griffon is good over uneven terrain, but only until you have a skyscale which is simply better for that.  After that, griffon is only useful in the air.  They've done a great job of ensuring that each mount has its purpose.  The only mounts I'd say experience too much overlap are the jackal, which feels like a slightly inferior raptor with contrived sand portal mechanic and occasionally useful barrier application.  Also, the springer which is mostly overlapped by the skyscale and otherwise only has a good CC engage for bosses.

Edited September 10, 2021 by AliamRationem.5172

[Dithnir.4593]

Going through the game first time means not having a mount and experiencing it as intended, until the expansions where you get them. I envied the players with mounts flashing past me, but thought 'hey, I just need to get there and earn it.' I didn't mind too much that it was all slower, because I didn't know any different and I was learning the game.

 

I remember then getting my glider for the first time, jumping off a cliff in Verdant Brink and just...soaring. It remains the most memorable single moment of my game so far, all those falls, and now I can just fly. It felt amazing, I felt really powerful. well, more like my capabilities were significantly upgraded.

 

Then, the raptor, that felt supercool, the bunny, etc. they all felt like great new 'capabilities' and I had played so long without any such thing in Tyria.

 

Then with LWS4 I grinded like hell for the Skyscale and was thrilled with it.

 

Going back to the earlier maps with these new capabilities made me feel a little bit OP. I felt I'd done my time, completing maps etc. on foot, now I got the rewards for playing through the game, the advantages for putting the time in, and it felt and still feels wonderful to replay the content but this time with ease. It feels to me an entirely positive thing, but only because I'd gone through it, like all first playthroughs, the vanilla way.

 

I would agree it would be too cheesy if you could turn up in this game and buy or otherwise acquire a mount on first playthrough from on or close to the start, that would indeed feel wrong.

 

Right now, it doesn't feel broken.

[Bingus.4236]

On 9/4/2021 at 1:01 AM, Obtena.7952 said:

That's an interesting theory .. but that ship sailed about 4 years ago. Whatever the impact is, good or bad, it's the STANDARD in the game now. It still doesn't change the fact that:

 

1. HoT content deosn't require mounts to do them

 

 

That's an argument for them not to be there.

[Obtena.7952]

24 minutes ago, Bingus.4236 said:

 

That's an argument for them not to be there.

Again, that ship has sailed ... they ARE there, so whether you have arguments they shouldn't be there isn't even worth discussing or relevant to the thread. They aren't going to be removed if that's what your implication is. 

Edited September 10, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[AliamRationem.5172]

26 minutes ago, Bingus.4236 said:

 

That's an argument for them not to be there.

 

No, it isn't.  Horizontal progression is intended and the developers have taken care to ensure that players can participate in content with no (or minimal) mastery unlocks.  HoT has numerous examples of places where having all mounts unlocked is an advantage, but it was designed prior to mounts and you can do absolutely every bit of it without a mount.

[LucianDK.8615]

Really tried to like the raptor. I just cannot. Snap upwards movement with the skyscale is just too good to not always use , compared to the raptor whom runs out stamina too fast.

 

The only land mount I find of use is the beetle.

Edited September 10, 2021 by LucianDK.8615

[Bingus.4236]

7 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, that ship has sailed ... they ARE there, so whether you have arguments they shouldn't be there isn't even worth discussing or relevant to the thread. They aren't going to be removed if that's what your implication is. 

 

My argument was your logic is back to front, I know years old content is not going to be changed.

[Narathkor.8541]

On 8/28/2021 at 4:06 PM, Obfuscate.6430 said:

All of the mounts do this though to a certain degree. Mounts should be disabled in areas where they entirely invalidate movement skills earned with masteries; ie - maps where you needed those masteries specifically to progress and attain goals. A good early example is Dry Top. Another example is Draconis Mons.  

The counter argument is that mounts bring new life to old maps and I agree. If you've ever flown over one on Gryphon back or Skyscale there's no comparison. Vistas will never give you that view. If you've ever needed to get to a certain map fast, on a new character without going near mobs nothing beats a Rollerbeetle or a Raptor.  
I think these two uses of mounts in core maps are ok because they don't disrupt any one else's game play and the only advantage that gives you is no worse than using a Gem Shop item to unlock waypoints.

But people use them to engage and instantly destroy low level mobs. You can leap from the back of them on to the end of some jumping puzzles regardless of the mount and gliding ban. 

I feel the issues I've mentioned are serious problems which can be disruptive for new players but also ~ the habit of Arenanet introducing new movement systems and then never or rarely using them again outside of the map they were from is already pretty bad. Mounts render those things even more useless.  I'm not particularly eloquent but I can understand how frustrating it is when you realize that your time is only valuable to the company in so far as  how long they can keep you engaged in certain content - that is to say the company is less interested in creating lasting, useful systems that rewards our time and effort throughout the game. 

That being said, it is understandable to a certain extent that any new map added past Path of Fire would and should make use of mount movement.  But, adding in vines, mushrooms, Zephyrite crystals - in areas too tight for mounts, in puzzles, in intricate terrain - I think would be good. We earned these things: I want to see them used more often.  

I don't think new players should be able to just be able to skip ahead to the degree mounts allow them to.  (Like Heart of Thorns content.) 
 

I could agree with that, Gliding only in Hots and associated season maps, gliding + mounts in PoF and associated seaon maps and anything in the future where mounts were considered, and disable both in core tyria where mounts and gliding were not a thought at all, I could get behind this.

[Narathkor.8541]

On 9/10/2021 at 10:57 AM, Dithnir.4593 said:

Going through the game first time means not having a mount and experiencing it as intended, until the expansions where you get them. I envied the players with mounts flashing past me, but thought 'hey, I just need to get there and earn it.' I didn't mind too much that it was all slower, because I didn't know any different and I was learning the game.

 

I remember then getting my glider for the first time, jumping off a cliff in Verdant Brink and just...soaring. It remains the most memorable single moment of my game so far, all those falls, and now I can just fly. It felt amazing, I felt really powerful. well, more like my capabilities were significantly upgraded.

 

Then, the raptor, that felt supercool, the bunny, etc. they all felt like great new 'capabilities' and I had played so long without any such thing in Tyria.

 

Then with LWS4 I grinded like hell for the Skyscale and was thrilled with it.

 

Going back to the earlier maps with these new capabilities made me feel a little bit OP. I felt I'd done my time, completing maps etc. on foot, now I got the rewards for playing through the game, the advantages for putting the time in, and it felt and still feels wonderful to replay the content but this time with ease. It feels to me an entirely positive thing, but only because I'd gone through it, like all first playthroughs, the vanilla way.

 

I would agree it would be too cheesy if you could turn up in this game and buy or otherwise acquire a mount on first playthrough from on or close to the start, that would indeed feel wrong.

 

Right now, it doesn't feel broken.

You mean like buy all of the expansions and use your instant 80 and do the first missions of hot and pof so you have gliding and a raptor in your first hour or two of play? 

[mythical.6315]

On 9/5/2021 at 10:02 PM, Zuldari.3940 said:

yes the base mounts can get you most places, but they cant get you there as timely or easy as skyscale. 

They can and in most case much quicker. 

[Xanadrine.4352]

On 9/25/2021 at 12:11 AM, mythical.6315 said:

They can and in most case much quicker. 

You know i found out this was bunkum tonight doing jahai. Went to kill the Djinn in the brandstorm southeast of the villiage wp. You know the guy that jumps from platform to platform. Once he got all the way over to the furthest platform I couldnt make the jump on my raptor. Landed down in the brandstorm and couldnt bunny up had to go all the way around to the village bunny the mountains to get back to his platform. he was dead the chest was not there for me and no achievement. Everyone had skyscales and just flew across to him, except me and another guy. We both got screwed.

 

Nothing beats the ease of a skyscale. i know I have an account with it and one without. So hey go do the map events and metas a couple of days without you skyscale, then come back.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Zuldari.3940