Reward Structure Changes Mentioned in the Postmortem

[TeamTebow.5274]

7 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

WvW used to have basically zero rewards, heck, players were losing gold by playing it, yet it was more active than now. The best reward is enjoyable game play.

 

There is absolutely zero effort - reward balance in WvW, nor does the current reward system incentivise "healthy PvP". "Outnumbered" also does not disincentivise players from stacking in huge zergs. Most do it anyway, and those who don't either prefer smaller scale game play - unrelated to the outnumbered buff -  or don't want to actively play at all. Getting rid of the latter is no big loss.

Did we play the same game? It used to be used almost exclusively to level characters in zergs, coordinating with 'competing' servers to keep their zergs separated. Its arguably the reason so many people at GW2 launch insisted there was no end-game, because WvW and was just "that mode you level in".

[Zyreva.1078]

2 minutes ago, Legionnaire.9478 said:

The real issue is the loss of pip bonuses with outnumbered. The +2 flat rate pip bonus is nice, but taking away outnumbered pip bonuses well before alliances are even ready. That 1) Punishes lower population servers especially during non-peak hours and 2) They should wait till alliances are ready to monitor if outnumbered is needed. 

 

Currently there is a huge server imbalance which is what alliances are supposed to change to make things fairer. Don't even know why they feel like removing certain features with how imbalance it is. 

 

But the vast majority of players is going to get more pips, how is this punishment for anyone? Also "outnumbered" isn't something only the low pop server have, since it does not take total population into consideration. Especially during non-peak hours where no server has every map filled.

The proposed changes do not punish anyone but those who deliberately seek "outnumbered" maps for easy pip farm.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

32 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

 

Well, using siege = 1 button game play and you were complaining that a fight for an objective was decided by players actually fighting instead of siege only. Now you state the opposite and tell me, siege is actually impactful? So what's your problem exactly?

 

 

You only need to kill a player or cap something every 10 min (5 for sentries) to keep participation maxed out. If you can't do that as roamer, the issue is on you, not the reward system.

 

First, one button gameplay can mean literally anything, including LB #5 from a player to tag something. 

 

Also, yes fighting over an objective and ignoring siege is counter-productive for the mode--should have a mix of both.  Again, if you don't like siege, go to PvP.

 

For that last point, others have already pointed out how that's not always possible--especially sentries which are almost always gone or flipped to your color.  Additionally, 'only need to kill a player' is a pretty big task for someone who isn't used to fighting other people, especially in a mode that SHOULD reward you for alternate ways (defending, repairing, etc.).

 

I realize you have the mindset to force fights so you can showcase your skills or something.  The problem is, this isn't the mode for that, and reward structures shouldn't be formed around that.  If fights were to become paramount we'd have to get down the rabbit hole of removal of food and normalizing of stats...and I for one am not getting into that right now.  

[Zyreva.1078]

7 minutes ago, TeamTebow.5274 said:

Did we play the same game? It used to be used almost exclusively to level characters in zergs, coordinating with 'competing' servers to keep their zergs separated. Its arguably the reason so many people at GW2 launch insisted there was no end-game, because WvW and was just "that mode you level in".

I didn't play at launch. Still started playing long before WvW rewards were a thing and it was very active and way more "competitive" (in terms of players willing to engage in combat) than now. The leveling zone was EotM back then, not regular WvW.

 

@Gotejjeken.1267 Again, WvW is a PvP game mode. I'd i recommend Drizzlewood Coast for those who want siege and repair gameplay without PvP ...

Edited October 22, 2021 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

37 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

I didn't play at launch. Still started playing long before WvW rewards were a thing and it was very active and way more "competitive" (in terms of players willing to engage in combat) than now. The leveling zone was EotM back then, not regular WvW.

 

@Gotejjeken.1267 Again, WvW is a PvP game mode. I'd i recommend Drizzlewood Coast for those who want siege and repair gameplay without PvP ...

And yet WvW is also a war simulator, which means running supply and maintaining objectives. If were just a mass PvP mode, then it would be an empty field.

[Nimris.3781]

3 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

If it does feel like a chore, you picked the wrong game mode.

 

Are you trying to convince me, that spending 20h+ for dimond chest is resonable time? I am perfectly fine with spending 8-10h a week activly playing in wvw, but at that point it start to feel tedious and outnumbered did help with it a bit. On a top of that, i would love to try other content, be it pvp or raids or fractals, and not spend whole week playing just wvw.

But most importantly, you are missing my point, and cherrypicking 1 sentence.  outnumbered also balances pips between servers, because while losing server has less pips from score, it does get occasionaly outnumbered bonus and everyone knows, matches arent balanced now, so small servers get slapped into face while waiting for alliances for no reason.

And while we are at it, Anet point out how well their algorithm balanced groups with just 2% difference but thats just about size of groups, however people dont play 24/7 so outnumber was and always will happen due to many reasons.

Edited October 22, 2021 by Nimris.3781

[Gorem.8104]

Removing outnumbered pips is a step in the wrong direction. Unless  the maps are balanced, so balanced that they don't have outnumbered over 4 maps 24/7 you will be getting less pips even with the added 2. 

 

Some people like roaming in outnumbered maps, which means they always now get 3 less pips. They now take many hours longer a week to complete a track that is capped. 

 

Why is the wvw tickets capped weekly? in pve you can pug into a full raid legendary set in a MUCH shorter time then it takes to get the wvw legendries. It could take a person multiple years of wvw to get legendries. Or a short time of raiding. 

 

You telling me that Oceanic players are just not accounted for entirely in this new reward system? How dare I play in NA times when living in Australia so I mostly get outnumbered pips that make up most of my pips? 

 

Also removing repairing part, the WORST part about wvw is keeping participation even when actively playing, you could hit 100 people die, and lose access to pips. You could escort yaks and fight people off but not kill anyone and lose access to pips. Now you can even try to defend a tower or keep, and lose access to pips. Outside of EBG Defence ticks do not give timer. 

 

So you have only 2 accesses to it essentially, flipping objectives or killing players. So the worst part of WvW, would be made to be even worse. So they want us to spend 20 hours a week flipping camps to get our tickets that gain super super slowly. 

[Gorem.8104]

38 minutes ago, Nimris.3781 said:

Are you trying to convince me, that spending 20h+ for dimond chest is resonable time? I am perfectly fine with spending 8-10h a week activly playing in wvw, but at that point it start to feel tedious and outnumbered did help with it a bit. On a top of that, i would love to try other content, be it pvp or raids or fractals, and not spend whole week playing just wvw.

But most importantly, you are missing my point, and cherrypicking 1 sentence.  outnumbered also balances pips between servers, because while losing server has less pips from score, it does get occasionaly outnumbered bonus and everyone knows, matches arent balanced now, so small servers get slapped into face while waiting for alliances for no reason.

And while we are at it, Anet point out how well their algorithm balanced groups with just 2% difference but thats just about size of groups, however people dont play 24/7 so outnumber was and always will happen due to many reasons.

 

Exactly, it still takes too long to get to diamond chests, and with the removal of repairs giving timer, your essentially cut off from a major source of it when actually playing the game. Defence of an objective now won't give you pips. 

 

Which means, 20+ hours of camp flipping weekly. WvW has the worst reward system and ways to get it in game, so their choice is to make it worse? Nothing should be removed, it should be easier to get participation, and you should get more pips.

Edited October 22, 2021 by Gorem.8104

[Sylvyn.4750]

13 minutes ago, Gorem.8104 said:

 

Exactly, it still takes too long to get to diamond chests, and with the removal of repairs giving timer, your essentially cut off from a major source of it when actually playing the game. Defence of an objective now won't give you pips. 

 

Which means, 20+ hours of camp flipping weekly. 

In addition to removing the Vet Creature from dailies, they'd better remove Objective defender too...

[ArchonWing.9480]

But as for wall repairing, won't you still get participation for completing the defender event? I personally have never repaired walls just to maintain partcipation outside of this event.

Outnumbered pips are nice, but they are also a sign of an unhealthy game mode, so ideally, we shouldn't balance around that. If you ask me outnumbered pips should be baseline, but they're already increasing baseline pips, so whatever.

Also while we're at this, can you reconsider vendors for WvW stuff? Like we're still seeing vendors selling paper siege for 12s or laurels. I think those need to be updated severely. Also the WvW laurel vendor doesn't sell enrichments. The skirmish ticket vendor could also use a revamp, since it's not viable for people that don't want legendaries. And what about mark shards? Not only are they a pain, but a year for ascended armor just seems silly.

I'll probably get shot for this, but... also. Why don't we have Guild Omega Golems?

Oh, can we make all sources of +xp from boosters apply to WxP? The wording is extremely confusing, and we have some boosters that say they improve XP but apply to XP and others only apply to pve XP.  And Birthday Boosters only give +10% reward track. Is that ok?

Edited October 22, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

7 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

But as for wall repairing, won't you still get participation for completing the defender event? I personally have never repaired walls just to maintain partcipation outside of this event.

Outnumbered pips are nice, but they are also a sign of an unhealthy game mode, so ideally, we shouldn't balance around that. If you ask me outnumbered pips should be baseline, but they're already increasing baseline pips, so whatever.

Also while we're at this, can you reconsider vendors for WvW stuff? Like we're still seeing vendors selling paper siege for 12s or laurels. I think those need to be updated severely. Also the WvW laurel vendor doesn't sell enrichments. The skirmish ticket vendor could also use a revamp, since it's not viable for people that don't want legendaries. And what about mark shards? Not only are they a pain, but a year for ascended armor just seems silly.

I'll probably get shot for this, but... also. Why don't we have Guild Omega Golems?

Guild golems would be awesome.

The shards should be updated to full marks.

Skirmish tick acquisition should increase by roughly 30%

[Leo.3428]

21 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Imagine fighting over only camps on the map, because that's what that would look like.

I was picturing the open gates as choke points, and more generally was envisioning making the terrain more strategic, but that alone is not enough, I agree.

Just looking for a way out of the PvE nature of flipping empty structures. I don't pay much attention to the rewards and am not sure this is where great changes can come from.

I should rather make another thread even though I'm sure all the possible ideas have been debated for years.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Leo.3428

[Xenesis.6389]

Just now, Leo.3428 said:

I was picturing the open gates as choke points, and more generally was envisioning making the terrain more strategic, but that alone is not enough, I agree.

Just looking for a way out of the PvE nature of flipping empty structures. I don't pay much attention to the rewards and am not sure this is were great changes can come from.

I should rather make another thread even though I'm sure all the possible ideas have been debated for years.

 

In order to have a choke point you have to have two sides present, and if you have open gates and no defenders and just scouts, those attackers will just run right in. Chokes are created in those objectives when the attacker is delayed long enough so that enough defenders show up to defend the choke when it opens.

[Gorem.8104]

8 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

But as for wall repairing, won't you still get participation for completing the defender event? I personally have never repaired walls just to maintain partcipation outside of this event.

Outnumbered pips are nice, but they are also a sign of an unhealthy game mode, so ideally, we shouldn't balance around that. If you ask me outnumbered pips should be baseline, but they're already increasing baseline pips, so whatever.

Also while we're at this, can you reconsider vendors for WvW stuff? Like we're still seeing vendors selling paper siege for 12s or laurels. I think those need to be updated severely. Also the WvW laurel vendor doesn't sell enrichments. The skirmish ticket vendor could also use a revamp, since it's not viable for people that don't want legendaries. And what about mark shards? Not only are they a pain, but a year for ascended armor just seems silly.

I'll probably get shot for this, but... also. Why don't we have Guild Omega Golems?

Oh, can we make all sources of +xp from boosters apply to WxP? The wording is extremely confusing, and we have some boosters that say they improve XP but apply to XP and others only apply to pve XP.  And Birthday Boosters only give +10% reward track. Is that ok?

 

Only EBG Defence timers seem to give part, I've done defend events in say, Bay, and at the end of the timer, it did not reset it to 10mins even though I had kills and wall repairs during the timer. Same deal with towers in redBL, noticed it not giving the 10 mins, unless that is just more incentive for everyone to be in EBG 😛 

 

Or zergs. Which is what their changes will do, either camp flipping or zergs will be the only way to get participation. 

[Luthan.5236]

Diamond takes too long compared to PvP the last chest in each season. For PvP I remember just playing about 3 matches each day (losing a lot so maybe 50/50 the win-loss-ratio) and finishing 1-2 weeks earlier usually. That's like ... less than 7 hours per week.

The diamond in WvW though is weekly - which makes it a lot more pressure to play. And it takes into account the extra pips for higher ranked players (probably balanced for them - to make it worthier to get higher rank).

I'd say ... they should change it to a similar system like PvP. Don't know how often those new "worlds" get rebalanced/mixed - if there are the same players playing for 2 months (like we have now with the classic worlds) ... they could make chests that reset not weekly but every 2 months.

And instead higher pip counter needed + also more rewards (tickets) in the chests.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Luthan.5236

[ArchonWing.9480]

3 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

 

Only EBG Defence timers seem to give part, I've done defend events in say, Bay, and at the end of the timer, it did not reset it to 10mins even though I had kills and wall repairs during the timer. Same deal with towers in redBL, noticed it not giving the 10 mins, unless that is just more incentive for everyone to be in EBG 😛 

 

Or zergs. Which is what their changes will do, either camp flipping or zergs will be the only way to get participation. 

I have never had any problem with it regardless of map. Granted I rarely pay attention to participation unless I drop below level 6.

Edited October 23, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[Zyreva.1078]

15 hours ago, Nimris.3781 said:

Are you trying to convince me, that spending 20h+ for dimond chest is resonable time? I am perfectly fine with spending 8-10h a week activly playing in wvw, but at that point it start to feel tedious and outnumbered did help with it a bit. On a top of that, i would love to try other content, be it pvp or raids or fractals, and not spend whole week playing just wvw.

When considering that a) legendary armor is supposed to be "the" ultimative end game reward and aquiring it means never having to worry about getting armor ever again and b) it is entirely optional and not required for any activity whatsoever and c) you don't even have to get to diamond chest to actually get it - then the time requirements don't seem to be unreasonable at all. In fact, they might be too low, since some players come to WvW - despite not liking the game mode - solely to get their legendary gear, even tho it can be aquired in other game modes as well.

Just play the game the way you like it and enjoy the free rewards that come with it. That's one awesome thing about GW2 and something that sets it apart from many other MMOs - the game does not force you to grind gear or play specific game modes to be competitive in others. So don't force it onto yourself.

Quote

But most importantly, you are missing my point, and cherrypicking 1 sentence.  outnumbered also balances pips between servers, because while losing server has less pips from score, it does get occasionaly outnumbered bonus and everyone knows, matches arent balanced now, so small servers get slapped into face while waiting for alliances for no reason.

Outnumbered does not balance servers. It does not take total population into consideration and isn't even meaningful when it comes to map states. Even the server with the highest population will have "outnumbered" on at least one map quite often, while at the same time it is possible for the second populated server, that might be heavily outnumbered by server nr. 1, to not have that buff.

Tying a significant reward bonus to "outnumbered" also creates the problem, that players want to maintain the buff as much as possible and for example don't call out an incoming attack on one of their structures, because reinforcements would mean, they lose their bonus pips. It basically does the opposite of balancing map population.

Quote

And while we are at it, Anet point out how well their algorithm balanced groups with just 2% difference but thats just about size of groups, however people dont play 24/7 so outnumber was and always will happen due to many reasons.

That's true but also irrelevant for reasons stated above. "Outnumbered" bonus pips do absolutely nothing to improve map or server wide population balance.

Edited October 23, 2021 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[SweetPotato.7456]

Do we get back track pips? for all the hours that was put in that get so little pips ?

[Gorem.8104]

7 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

When considering that a) legendary armor is supposed to be "the" ultimative end game reward and aquiring it means never having to worry about getting armor ever again and b) it is entirely optional and not required for any activity whatsoever and c) you don't even have to get to diamond chest to actually get it - then the time requirements don't seem to be unreasonable at all. In fact, they might be too low, since some players come to WvW - despite not liking the game mode - solely to get their legendary gear, even tho it can be aquired in other game modes as well.

Just play the game the way you like it and enjoy the free rewards that come with it. That's one awesome thing about GW2 and something that sets it apart from many other MMOs - the game does not force you to grind gear or play specific game modes to be competitive in others. So don't force it onto yourself.

Outnumbered does not balance servers. It does not take total population into consideration and isn't even meaningful when it comes to map states. Even the server with the highest population will have "outnumbered" on at least one map quite often, while at the same time it is possible for the second populated server, that might be heavily outnumbered by server nr. 1, to not have that buff.

Tying a significant reward bonus to "outnumbered" also creates the problem, that players want to maintain the buff as much as possible and for example don't call out an incoming attack on one of their structures, because reinforcements would mean, they lose their bonus pips. It basically does the opposite of balancing map population.

That's true but also irrelevant for reasons stated above. "Outnumbered" bonus pips do absolutely nothing to improve map or server wide population balance.

 

Actually extremely low, in the time you get one set of Legendary gear from wvw, you have all armour classes and more unlocked in pve. 

Like why make wvw stuff take years to get, when pve stuff takes weeks? 

Edited October 23, 2021 by Gorem.8104

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, Gorem.8104 said:

 

Actually extremely low, in the time you get one set of Legendary gear from wvw, you have all armour classes and more unlocked in pve. 

Like why make wvw stuff take years to get, when pve stuff takes weeks? 

Then go do it in PvE. Why is this a problem if you can get it so fast it'll only take weeks? Just do that first then play WvW as much as you wish!

[Leo.3428]

23 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

In order to have a choke point you have to have two sides present, and if you have open gates and no defenders and just scouts, those attackers will just run right in. Chokes are created in those objectives when the attacker is delayed long enough so that enough defenders show up to defend the choke when it opens.

In real life, choke points give the defenders a definite edge. In the game though -- I forgot this for a moment while devising grandiose strategy plans -- there is no such thing, as a hundred players can all at once enter through a narrow door. Let's quickly forget this derailment and move back to the topic 😉

[Tuna Bandit.3786]

Participation system needs an overhaul completely in my oppinion.

During fights, if you started to bleed participation, you dropped a supply in a wall to not loose it. 

So now, you're in a large fight, you are healer for example, can't get a shot in on an enemy that dies, but can disable siege, can rezz allies, can support... you will bleed participation..

The whole system is designed to combat AFKing... when I fight - but die - I am not AFK. When I risk it all, run out and stand in the middle of the enemy in an effort to disable their siege I am not AFK... 

Love large scale fights, but with this change, I will not support.... I MUST KILL to keep participation up... Disable siege? Ha no! MUST KILL to keep participation up... forget defending, MUST KILL... MUST KILL... 

Because if you do not kill... you're afk and abusing the system.

Extremely short sighted to attack 1 activity that was also a saving grace for those not always able to constantly kill

Seriously ArenaNet, I hope you take a complete look at the entire system instead of just taking things away that we (NOT afkers) also use to prevent bleed of participation and replace it with credit of other activities.

AKFers will find other ways, yet we - the ones that just want to play WvW and have fun - are the ones that are gonna be the victim.

 

[Xenesis.6389]

They cannot give participation for dying because then you would have lazy kittens suiciding for it, not hard to figure out why you get most participation from killing stuff.

 

[Gorem.8104]

23 hours ago, Tuna Bandit.3786 said:

Participation system needs an overhaul completely in my oppinion.

During fights, if you started to bleed participation, you dropped a supply in a wall to not loose it. 

So now, you're in a large fight, you are healer for example, can't get a shot in on an enemy that dies, but can disable siege, can rezz allies, can support... you will bleed participation..

The whole system is designed to combat AFKing... when I fight - but die - I am not AFK. When I risk it all, run out and stand in the middle of the enemy in an effort to disable their siege I am not AFK... 

Love large scale fights, but with this change, I will not support.... I MUST KILL to keep participation up... Disable siege? Ha no! MUST KILL to keep participation up... forget defending, MUST KILL... MUST KILL... 

Because if you do not kill... you're afk and abusing the system.

Extremely short sighted to attack 1 activity that was also a saving grace for those not always able to constantly kill

Seriously ArenaNet, I hope you take a complete look at the entire system instead of just taking things away that we (NOT afkers) also use to prevent bleed of participation and replace it with credit of other activities.

AKFers will find other ways, yet we - the ones that just want to play WvW and have fun - are the ones that are gonna be the victim.

 

 

You know, that is an idea, if you heal someone else and they gain health back, set participation to 10minutes. Buffing couldn't work as then that'd be the easiest way to get it as you could just afk as a Rev and get it. Still most support has some kind of heal, so be interesting if they actually let things count with heals, that way you can support in a group and actually have an easier time keeping it up then the dps and tanks. 

CC'ing another player, should give participation too,  harder to pull off then just damage dealt. Ya'know, things that you actually do when playing the game, instead of having to worry about this ticking timer you could just play and enjoy yourself. 

Sieging a target should give participation to everyone standing around the siege If its not inside a keep/tower. That would make things interesting as it could cause pvp events simply by more people being hittable. 

Idk, just seems like if you are actually playing the game you should always have it without having to try. Even right now its easily possible to be super active in wvw, play for hours, and accidently spend a lot of it outside of the grace period and miss pips entirely because you didn't do what you had to specifically to keep it up. You have to take camps, you have to get a kill every 10minutes. Removing one of our few accesses to it, only hurts active players, it does nothing for afk players. 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Gorem.8104

[TheGrimm.5624]

On 10/21/2021 at 2:49 PM, Josh Davis.7865 said:

Posted this elsewhere, wanted to make sure I put it on the forums as well:

 

A quick follow-up here regarding the removal of the outnumbered pip bonus.

 

Looking at the sources of pips, outnumbered is a small percentage (7%) of overall pip gains compared to ranks and placement, despite the fact that outnumbered is a huge bonus (+5). The changes outlined in the blog (+2 baseline pips) are intended to provide more players, more pips, in more scenarios.

 

It's worth keeping in mind that the entire point of World Restructuring is improving population balance across match ups. The ability to benefit from outnumbered exists to the degree that it does currently because population isn't balanced as well as it could be. We're experimenting with this change now because the goal is that world population balance will improve with World Restructuring, meaning that the outnumbered bonus will be even more difficult to benefit from in the future.

 

And, I know this is hard to believe (trust me, I get it), but if we don't see the results we're looking for from this change, we'll make additional adjustments.

 

 

Concerned here, removing the outnumbered pips will encourage people to leave fights that based on numbers they can not win. Even though statistically this reward is a small percentage of people this is also the scouts that might be fighting outnumbered that are trying to watch their teams holdings that so that they can shout out and get people on map if possible and/or are trying to hold the line knowing they can just simply slow the other side if the otherside just brings enough. This job is already frustrating at times as the mind set of 'don't worry we will come by later and just flip it back' is still pretty strong out there and it's still far easier to attack then to defend. There are already enough incentive for zerg play and the time to take has already been vastly reduced.

 

The reduction in contribution to repair will also impact the few that do stop to try and repair. Quite often that job is left to a few people as the masses move on. Please reconsider this or run some stats to compare the numbers that do repair in that equation. I think there is less people using this as a  'farm' mechanic versus those of us that will do the dull work to repair simply because we don't like it when we lose objectives because the wall wasn't repaired after the last attack on it. Most zergs that come to defend will quite often just roll out to move back to attacking versus stay and repair since it costs them supply they will need for the next fight. I worry this change will have a negative impact and encourage even less to stop and repair then we have repairing today.