Warrior and his E-spec. What's going on?

[DemonCrypto.6792]

Hello to all.

I'm writing this to go on a topic who's burning today.
Warrior as one flavour of E-spec.
From what Anet told us E-spec exist to expende a classe to give a special place in the gameplay to it.
But if we look at it:

Core War: The dps by exellence, tanky ,with hint of condition damage. The core is a litteral armory with a lot of choice weapon and trait but a DPS.

Then we got with HoT

The berserker : 3 trait line ,1 line condition damage (good but not exeptionnal in front of other classes), 1 line Power DPS (the most used build) and 1 line  tanky (rarely used).  The berserker expend on the core dps and give a good condi option, but sill a Dps.

And Pof

The spellbreaker: 4 role associated, a boonstripper (good in Wvw and event where boons are keys), Tanky intteruptor (the PvP tank by exellence), The Dps dualist ( Pve, pvp and Wvw roamer) , the healbreaker (nerfed but still a support). The spellbreaker is  a great expention on core , it is a multitool but still in his center a dps focused spec.

And lastely for EoD everything goes out the window.
The bladesworn, 1 role maybe 2 , The Dragon trigger happy Dps ( usable only in pve), shoutingsworn (not really viable rigth now). This is the biggest Dps war can do .

So the real question now is "What's the point of berserker ,now ?" because again we got a spec who go into dps territory , but we got already  2/3 types of gameplay who filled this spot (core and bers especialy).

What was the big project behind a total Dps focus E-spec? They aren't made to fill new role for the warrior ?

I 'm not an expert but only a war main, I can't says what anet is thinking .... But  3 time the same core role not even giving a little way for good support (outside of banners) or heals roles. I can't call this expending toward  new roles. I fear the futur of our war peoples.

Edited October 29, 2021 by DemonCrypto.6792

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

One can only hope that leading up to EoD release that the team sits down an focuses on each traitline and weapon and decide what their niches will be and where they get to excel at without too much double dipping.

[Zekent.3652]

What this should be imo:

Berserker: The main condi dps spec.

Spellbreaker: Antiwizard, duelist.

BS: The main power dps spec.

So, could be nice if they polish these main aspects of each elite spec.

[Geoff Fey.1035]

@Zizekent.2398 Going one step further

1. Strength: Power DPS + Burst
2. Tactics: Healing + Support
3. Discipline: Utility
4. Defense: Defense
5. Arms: Condi DPS + Burst

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

39 minutes ago, Geoff Fey.1035 said:

@Zizekent.2398 Going one step further

1. Strength: Power DPS + Burst
2. Tactics: Healing + Support
3. Discipline: Utility
4. Defense: Defense
5. Arms: Condi DPS + Burst

The problem is that there are important self sustain traits in Strength that are on master traits, and thus crowd out the DPS traits.

The healing and support in Tactics is subpar.

The utility in Discipline is so vital to warrior gameplay that most people cannot fathom never taking it

Defense offers very little in the way of Defense anymore

and Arms is a hodge podge of useless forgotten traits.

[DemonCrypto.6792]

29 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

The problem is that there are important self sustain traits in Strength that are on master traits, and thus crowd out the DPS traits.

The healing and support in Tactics is subpar.

The utility in Discipline is so vital to warrior gameplay that most people cannot fathom never taking it

Defense offers very little in the way of Defense anymore

and Arms is a hodge podge of useless forgotten traits.

Yep , when was the last war big update ?
I was speaking about the specs because their are more or less recent but yep their just the most visible part of the iceberg.

But for me Bladesworn is the thing that kicked the hornet nest (i know it's a beta build) but look at what the other classes have in specs (the new ones are not totaly coocked also)  they litteraly change the way a classe play and roles.

and then their is war stuck on is dps and the dreaded Bannerslave ( this is another can of worm i don't even need to talk about , the other war mains have already take about it from all point)

[Geoff Fey.1035]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 Yeah, I was mostly noting the traitlines as rough looks at how they could revamp them to give each line its own identity.

Off topic:

The Marching Orders change was a great idea but ANet really didn't go as far as it should have gone. I'd want to see Tactics providing Warriors with a strong "support commander" traitline where they can push allies in the fight.

Banners in discipline has always truck me as weird, because they're 100% support and Discipline is all about utility (weapon swap to access it). With Axes at the end "just because". I feel moving the banners (and reworking them) to Tactics would allow Discipline to have more of an identity focused around your weapons. Providing a couple seconds of CD reduction to weapon skills on swap would be a nice update for it.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

18 minutes ago, Geoff Fey.1035 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 Yeah, I was mostly noting the traitlines as rough looks at how they could revamp them to give each line its own identity.

Off topic:

The Marching Orders change was a great idea but ANet really didn't go as far as it should have gone. I'd want to see Tactics providing Warriors with a strong "support commander" traitline where they can push allies in the fight.

Banners in discipline has always truck me as weird, because they're 100% support and Discipline is all about utility (weapon swap to access it). With Axes at the end "just because". I feel moving the banners (and reworking them) to Tactics would allow Discipline to have more of an identity focused around your weapons. Providing a couple seconds of CD reduction to weapon skills on swap would be a nice update for it.

It's because they murdered it in the cradle with the CD on Marching Orders. Remove the CD and it instantly becomes viable support. Change Marital Cadence to provide Alacrity and quickness in an AoE around the warrior for 3s on using a burst.

Banners just need to be completely scrapped and reworked into something not passive stat sticks.

[frareanselm.1925]

The new role for warrior in eod should be the monk, but anet didnt want to implement it

[Logos.3042]

On 10/29/2021 at 10:20 AM, Zizekent.2398 said:

What this should be imo:

Berserker: The main condi dps spec.

Spellbreaker: Antiwizard, duelist.

BS: The main power dps spec.

So, could be nice if they polish these main aspects of each elite spec.

I would rather they rework all of the F1 & F2 skills of BS and make this a support spec.  This is ridiculous to have another DPS power spec...

[Jzaku.9765]

They very intentionally and explicitly made Berserker ALSO the power DPS espec when they completely revamped the Axe and GS Primal Bursts. So really, bladesworn is just retreading ground as recent as... April 23rd 2019. 

[Dadnir.5038]

Judging a spec based on prejudice isn't really the best thing someone should do. Whether the spec traitline and tools seem oriented in a way or another, in the end it's just a part of a build that will or won't be meta. And to be fair, since HoT, warrior have mainly been used as a support in group content despite it's specs not being seen as "support" specs.

And, the fact that warrior have primarily been used as a support for most of it's "life" is probably why the devs seek a way to give it a dps alternative (even if the design can be somewhat ridiculous).

Edited October 30, 2021 by Dadnir.5038

[Grand Marshal.4098]

20 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Judging a spec based on prejudice isn't really the best thing someone should do. Whether the spec traitline and tools seem oriented in a way or another, in the end it's just a part of a build that will or won't be meta. And to be fair, since HoT, warrior have mainly been used as a support in group content despite it's specs not being seen as "support" specs.

And, the fact that warrior have primarily been used as a support for most of it's "life" is probably why the devs seek a way to give it a dps alternative (even if the design can be somewhat ridiculous).

which means there is a flawed approach somewhere there. As no warrior is a true support. Banners could be support be it for regen and other boons on banners, but that got axed and shouts can be effective as a third support option as flat healing, some cleaning and some might aren't rly the deal nowadays. Ig to the limit has a use but such build can only work with trooper runes. 

 

Phalanx strength got axed as a pure might support and yet look at druid lel. 

 

I think the bladesworn could have been an unique ammo-interactive spec with more aegis and stab built into it and a decent dps row of traits, not bount by a bad kit, instead by a new actual burst mechanic that does not sacrifice weapon swap or normal weapon bursts (or enhanced ones for that matter should the spec introduce a new way of utilizing all core bursts). 

 

Be it double pistol, or staff. Woul it look too similar to Guardian? Not rly, cause it's warrior.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

I'm interested to see what direction the Devs take BS next month in the second beta event. Clearly, BS has (rightfully) gotten a lot of negative feedback and serious changes need to be made. The question is what the devs actually will do about it. 

 

I really, really hope they listen to the community...ANet has a tendency to just "do their own thing," i.e. make changes that no one was asking for. It hasn't worked out so well for them thus far, and it would be a shame if they totally screw up BS because they were too stubborn to listen.

[oscuro.9720]

10 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

I'm interested to see what direction the Devs take BS next month in the second beta event. Clearly, BS has (rightfully) gotten a lot of negative feedback and serious changes need to be made. The question is what the devs actually will do about it. 

 

I really, really hope they listen to the community...ANet has a tendency to just "do their own thing," i.e. make changes that no one was asking for. It hasn't worked out so well for them thus far, and it would be a shame if they totally screw up BS because they were too stubborn to listen.

I think one of the issues is some people offer unhelpful, non-starter suggestions like “give us a complete rework, its unsalvagable”, which is not going to happen, and doesn’t offer anything constructive or critical of what was presented (and imo the claim it’s unsalvageable is wrong). Parsing through pages of unhelpful feedback can be a pain and obscures the legitimate criticisms (I’ve done it, it sucks). 
But you are absolutely right, if they just start throwing in random stuff that doesn’t address the actual issues of the spec, it could be a mess. 

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

58 minutes ago, oscuro.9720 said:

I think one of the issues is some people offer unhelpful, non-starter suggestions like “give us a complete rework, its unsalvagable”, which is not going to happen, and doesn’t offer anything constructive or critical of what was presented (and imo the claim it’s unsalvageable is wrong). Parsing through pages of unhelpful feedback can be a pain and obscures the legitimate criticisms (I’ve done it, it sucks). 
But you are absolutely right, if they just start throwing in random stuff that doesn’t address the actual issues of the spec, it could be a mess. 

Yeah, my biggest concern is that ANet has seemed really out of touch with what Warrior needs, and that the changes that they make don't do enough to move Warrior toward viability.  For instance, take the recent Rifle "rework."  This was A.) a terrible rework that did little to address Rifle's core problems, and B.) should have been a much lower priority for a rework when compared to things like Mace or Sword.

 

Or consider the rework to Great Fortitude.  This one is actually a good change, but they did so in a trait line that was already strong (no pun intended) and you still have to choose it over Forceful Greatsword, arguably the most valuable warrior trait, period.  All the while, Defense is sitting there with 2 traits with 300s CD, and Armored Attack is underperforming.  They easily could have reworked Armored Attack instead (for example, convert 10% toughness into power AND precision; basically the same thing they did for Great Fortitude just a different trait line) and made Defense that much more viable. And because of Armored Attack's position in the trait line (paired with Defy Pain and Sundering Mace), it would actually see plenty of use.

 

It's decisions like these  that make me worried that ANet just doesn't get Warrior.  And makes the fact that they don't seem interested in implementing any of our ideas from the forums (you know, from people who actually play warrior) all the more tragic.

Edited October 30, 2021 by CalmTheStorm.2364

[Grand Marshal.4098]

1 hour ago, oscuro.9720 said:

I think one of the issues is some people offer unhelpful, non-starter suggestions like “give us a complete rework, its unsalvagable”, which is not going to happen, and doesn’t offer anything constructive or critical of what was presented (and imo the claim it’s unsalvageable is wrong). Parsing through pages of unhelpful feedback can be a pain and obscures the legitimate criticisms (I’ve done it, it sucks). 
But you are absolutely right, if they just start throwing in random stuff that doesn’t address the actual issues of the spec, it could be a mess. 

Personally, all my 33 replies in the feeback thread were either detailed explanations or elaboration on discusssed topics and all the feedback I have offered in any other BsW threads (too many to count),  also brings up solutions, justifications and reasoning. One cannot do more here tbh.

 

We rly need some luck. At this point there is nothing else to discuss, we have extracted every single drop of content BsW could offer, or tried/will try to offer. And that's not just me. kitten compare this sub to any other. Look at the meaningful discussions we've had for months and not to mention the Omnibus..

Edited October 30, 2021 by Grand Marshal.4098

[Downstate.4697]

Especs tend to focus on 1 aspect of the profession. Berserker touched on the adrenaline mechanic and modifying f5 while spellbreaker focused on the cc of warrior and gave boon rip. Bladesworn focuses on the ammo mechanic.

[oscuro.9720]

6 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Personally, all my 33 replies in the feeback thread were either detailed explanations or elaboration on discusssed topics and all the feedback I have offered in any other BsW threads (too many to count),  also brings up solutions, justifications and reasoning. One cannot do more here tbh.

 

We rly need some luck. At this point there is nothing else to discuss, we have extracted every single drop of content BsW could offer, or tried/will try to offer. And that's not just me. kitten compare this sub to any other. Look at the meaningful discussions we've had for months and not to mention the Omnibus..

I’m not referencing you, or anyone specifically. You always have well thought out ideas that, even if we don’t agree, the disagreement is philosophical in nature, which is unavoidable, since we are different people with different desires. 
And you are correct, the warrior forum is much better than most (if not every) forums. However, that doesn’t mean it’s hard to find what is desired, what is a realistic change, etc. when you have to parse through disagreements, non-viable solutions, etc. I’m just saying it’s not a job I envy. Like I said, I’ve had to go through mass consumer feedback and it’s hard to really figure out what people want, what is doable, and what fits in with the direction you want, and then make it all work together. 
I actually went through the blsw thread and there’s a lot less “just rework” than I remember, maybe because I’ve been giving more feedback on willbender recently, but there’s still a lot of debate/conversation about what is best for different things that never come to a conclusion. All I’m saying is it’s hard I guess, and I guess that means I’m just simping for Anet since I can commiserate with them based on my IRL experiences.

[Dadnir.5038]

10 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

which means there is a flawed approach somewhere there. As no warrior is a true support. Banners could be support be it for regen and other boons on banners, but that got axed and shouts can be effective as a third support option as flat healing, some cleaning and some might aren't rly the deal nowadays. Ig to the limit has a use but such build can only work with trooper runes. 

 

Phalanx strength got axed as a pure might support and yet look at druid lel. 

 

I think the bladesworn could have been an unique ammo-interactive spec with more aegis and stab built into it and a decent dps row of traits, not bount by a bad kit, instead by a new actual burst mechanic that does not sacrifice weapon swap or normal weapon bursts (or enhanced ones for that matter should the spec introduce a new way of utilizing all core bursts). 

 

Be it double pistol, or staff. Woul it look too similar to Guardian? Not rly, cause it's warrior.

I disagree, warrior is and have always been a "power" support and even before phallanx strength was introduced in the game it was one of the best profession to provide might.

Now, sure, many things have changed but even with phallanx strength "axed" do you dare say that you can't provide 25 might, empower allies, banner of strength/discipline and perma fury to your group with ease if you build for it?

You're unsatisfied with bladesworn and want very sought out boons. I do understand you as I'm not fond of the design of the bladeswarn myself. That said I think it was a good call to "bind" a weapon to a profession, "giving up" the weaponswap. What I dislike is the whole gunsaber concept and the fact that they give up both the weaponswap and the classic burst. For me they've just gone to far in a cliché concept (especially since they re-use GS which abreviate both gunsaber and greatsword... well it kitten me off. There is many weapons that they could have come up with and I'm honestly sick of the GS)

[Jzaku.9765]

4 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I disagree, warrior is and have always been a "power" support and even before phallanx strength was introduced in the game it was one of the best profession to provide might.

Now, sure, many things have changed but even with phallanx strength "axed" do you dare say that you can't provide 25 might, empower allies, banner of strength/discipline and perma fury to your group with ease if you build for it?

 

GW2's classes don't exist in a vacuum. Every single build capable of pumping Might and Fury has been completely and utterly obsoleted by the meta support specs.

You ALWAYS have one of these in endgame content, and therefore these lesser builds that are technically capable of providing 5 man alac/might/fury might as well not exist in the face of the builds that can provide it to 10. 

Even in the 5 man content like fractals there's absolutely no point in providing these because your support (which Warrior is completely unable to fill the shoes of) is capable of doing so.  There hasn't been reason to run might/fury Warrior for literally years.

[Logos.3042]

2 hours ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

GW2's classes don't exist in a vacuum. Every single build capable of pumping Might and Fury has been completely and utterly obsoleted by the meta support specs.

You ALWAYS have one of these in endgame content, and therefore these lesser builds that are technically capable of providing 5 man alac/might/fury might as well not exist in the face of the builds that can provide it to 10. 

Even in the 5 man content like fractals there's absolutely no point in providing these because your support (which Warrior is completely unable to fill the shoes of) is capable of doing so.  There hasn't been reason to run might/fury Warrior for literally years.

Agreed.  And I have no idea why we now have 3 Power dps elites... Yes, Berzerker can be Condi also.

3 Power Elite DPS specs... It just doesnt make sense.  

Edited October 31, 2021 by Logos.3042

[MithranArkanere.8957]

Warrior elite specializations should always have a single F1 button.

 

For Bladesworn, weapon swap should be 'hijacked' in combat so it can still be used, but  it now swaps to the Gunblade, instead using F1 to sheathe/unsheathe it. 

F1 would then be for Dragon Trigger. 

 

---

 

For spellbreaker, they should merge F1 and F2 into a single key, replacing the single Full Counter with different Counter Bursts. 

 

Pressing F1 once would channel like when you do a Full Counter, but using it again during the channel before being hit would unleash a T1 burst like when you press F1 now as spellbreaker.  So double tap F1, you unleash a Burst. 

 

Then, if an enemy hits you while you are channeling, you would instead unleash a different Counter Burst depending on the weapon equipped.   Counter Burts would count as T3 bursts for traits. 

 

This way Spellbreaker could be given different effects based on the weapon, creating a space for more variety to its toolkit  

 

For example:

 

• Eviscerate-> Maim: Power damage, temporarily decreases enemy's max HP (blight could be turned into a more generic Deep Wound effect instead)
• Skull Crack->Skull Basher. Power damage, pulses 1s stun for 5 seconds.
• Flurry-> Flourish. Evade while spinning for 2s and deal bleeding to surrounding enemies, then finish with a forward thrust. The spin last +1s for every 3 enemy attacks you evade, up to +3s. The final trust also does more bleeding the more you evaded, up to 10 stacks. 
• Arc Slice->Counter Arc. Unleahses 3 cleaves, 1 forward, 1 behind, 1 circular, each slice deals damage and removes boons. Enemies hit by all 3 slices take an extra hit that deals more damage and removes 2 more boons
• Earthshaker->Tremor. Creates an area that pulses damage and knockdown for 3 seconds.  Enemies hit by each pulse also receive weakness if they were already knocked down.
• Combustive Shot -> Incendiary Arrows. Create a burning field at your feet, and whirl in place while firing arrows that cause burning, creating a short bullet hell, the arrows my combo with the field (20% chance), dealing additional burning.  The whirl would last less than 3s, but the small fire field will last 5.
• Kill Shot -> Reflect Shot/Cruel Bashing. This one would change depending on the range of the hit that triggers it. If ranged, it'll release Reflect Shot, creating a small wall in front of you that reflects up to 20 projectiles for 2 seconds. If hit in melee range, the character knocks down the enemy with the butt of the rifle, and proceeds to hitting them two more times on the ground dealing additional 1s knockdown. The last hit finishes downed enemies.
• Whirling Strike->Maelstrom Spin: Spins in place several times, pulling enemies up between 150 and 600 units away, and causing stun and bleeding to those that get under 150 units.
• Forceful Shot->Urchin Shot: Fires 10 shots in multiple directions. Enemies hit are tormented and pulled in.

Edited October 31, 2021 by MithranArkanere.8957
Formatting

[Aeolus.3615]

21 hours ago, Logos.3042 said:

I would rather they rework all of the F1 & F2 skills of BS and make this a support spec.  This is ridiculous to have another DPS power spec...

During the BS beta ive actually fought some minstrells BS.. i call that REAL BS*T BUILDS :D!!!

 

Warrior already  have cool support mechanics but Anet kinda kitten arround making stuff to be weak.

Wait til staff warrior monk :) that time u can play a monkey king hero that is also a support toon :)

Edited October 31, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[Vancho.8750]

By the looks of Berserker and SpB, they had some kind of core warrior direction they excel at, Berserker focuses on bursts so it is supposed to be better DPS focused on the Discipline tratline as extension on it, SpB is basically better defense traitline but active. 
So the current Bladesworn focuses probably on Strength, the problem here is that Strength and Arms are already in demand and on all builds that focus on doing power or condition damage so one every build, which doesn't give us any new gameplay.
I personally hoped they will do the Elite version of Tactics this time around, so Warrior can feel like the OP as kitten "support" elites that basically are good for dps and support, Kinda jealous of thief now ngl , not that thief didn't deserve a support spec since it had 2 elites that did just dps, but I feel warrior was on the same boat it just had banners. My big current issue is that all professions have one support oriented elite except warrior.
I propose Spellbreaker to get the Scrapper type viability rework so it has a niche in PVE, it is used already in PvP(not that much anymore cause it got overnerfed)  and WvW as a support but mostly because it leans in the control aspect and SpB is just way better defense traitline than defense. So a row of support traits that work with the support parts of warrior in synergy (banners shout , so tactics) and rework on the useless meditations to something supportive for PVE that can take some kind of niche in a group in combination with another class Like FB/Renegade do it now. It already fills the Tank archtype it just doesn't do anything to convey it in an instance PVE setting.