Please fix warrior movement skills, it's been long enough

[Noz.4650]

Warrior suffers from many shortcomings but the most annoying of them all is having to play Russian roulette with your movement skills. Every game at least once per game you'll have to play around one of your movement skills working against you, which means by virtue of playing the only viable warrior build there's a non-negligible chance you can throw a game. The main offenders are Bull's Charge, Rush and Shield Bash, but it can happen on any targeted movement skill. Why does this not happen on any other class, or at the very least at a fraction of the rate it happens on warrior? Those are all very high impact skills and even one of them missing can put you in a terrible position. They are very telegraphed and easy to dodge to begin with so it just adds insult to injury, and in my (anecdotal) experience, the chances of it happening seem to increase or decrease every other patch somehow, and at least for me at the moment it's very very bad.

These issues have persisted since the release of the game even when they said they "fixed" it many years ago. I think I speak for all warrior players when I say that it's high time to fix these inconsistencies for good please. I don't think asking to fix broken skills that warrior relies on to even be competitive with other classes at all is that much to ask.

EDIT: For those who are unaware, a lot of warrior movement skills will either go in the opposite direction of your target, hit your target way ahead of them which messes up your combo, or straight up fly by and miss. They seem to be programmed differently from most other movement skills and interact in strange ways with the netcode making them very bad at tracking enemies, and this usually happens multiple times per game. In the case of Rush you can even sometimes just walk through the warrior and the attack animation will miss.

Edited October 30, 2021 by eksn.7264

[Eugchriss.2046]

So you wrote a wall text about some hypothetical issue without even explaining what that issue was. Congrats.

Btw I love getting Bull's charged behind wall or being rushed while I am 10k away from the war...

[Grand Marshal.4098]

1 hour ago, Eugchriss.2046 said:

So you wrote a wall text about some hypothetical issue without even explaining what that issue was. Congrats.

Btw I love getting Bull's charged behind wall or being rushed while I am 10k away from the war...

mad cap

 

Bull's charge has a bigger chance of having the warrior jump over the enemy and wrongly position them facing the opposite side, making hundred blades impossible to land, which is more than enough time for the enemy to break stun or even avoid getting big dmg overall.

 

Rush is the clunkiest gap closer in the game. What you refer as 10k meters is simply the final charge in rush having an added range not on the tooltip due to the greatsword slash range.

[Noz.4650]

2 hours ago, Eugchriss.2046 said:

So you wrote a wall text about some hypothetical issue without even explaining what that issue was. Congrats.

Btw I love getting Bull's charged behind wall or being rushed while I am 10k away from the war...

I mean fair enough but I'm pretty sure you can simply say "fix Bull's Charge" and just about everyone knows what you're talking about. Also, hypothetical issue? Sorry but have you been living under a rock for the past 9 years?

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

They should just update the tooltip to "picks target at random"

[Telgum.6071]

Sorry not sorry, read my signature.

[Zekent.3652]

Some salty rev mains in comments lol.

[Math.5123]

Warrior is definitely not the only class with tracking issues. Ever tried playing Scepter torch and gs guard? 

You will unironically miss more skills than you'll hit.

Edited October 30, 2021 by Math.5123

[Widmo.3186]

You do understand that its a double-edged sword? You arent the only one playing russian roulette with your skills, opponent is doing exactly the same. Cast the first stone whoever never suffered from warrior with slightly too high ping, or just because terrain was weird, or whatever. Theres not a single class in this game that gains more from being laggy than warrior, Rush with crazy range, Shield bash with so weird mobility that its almost like evade skill etc.
So yes, I would love to see all those movement skills of a warrior "fixed", but tbh just because theyre working as they are, its the most dangerous thing about warrior and it might get totaly opposite outcome, lol.

[Noz.4650]

2 hours ago, Math.5123 said:

Warrior is definitely not the only class with tracking issues. Ever tried playing Scepter torch and gs guard? 

You will unironically miss more skills than you'll hit.

I acknowledge in the post that it does happen to other classes, especially with targeted projectiles. It's a different issue and it doesn't take away from the original post.

[aymnad.9023]

I hear about it often on the forums yet barely experienced it so far. Does it happens when trying almost max range? In general I use it to escape (no target) or mid range in team fight. Maybe on some terrain? 

Edited October 30, 2021 by aymnad.9023

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

6 hours ago, aymnad.9023 said:

I hear about it often on the forums yet barely experienced it so far. Does it happens when trying almost max range? In general I use it to escape (no target) or mid range in team fight. Maybe on some terrain? 

Hard to say. I think terrain definitely plays a role, esp with Bulls charge. I personally find Rush to be the biggest offender. Rush seems to work well (relatively) when used at very long range, but when used at close or mid range, it's like a 50/50 chance of actually running away from or perpendicular to the target, even on flat terrain. I really have no idea why this happens.

 

It usually works as intended when no target is selected (i.e. you are trying to run away), but I have had multiple times where I deliberately de-selected the target and Rush ran at them anyways.

 

TLDR: Rush at your own risk.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

It rly get more clunky if you have the promote skill target option, which allowas you to redirect moves depending on enemy targeted. Rush can miss hard. And it's not even enemies in different directions. 2 guys side by side stepping out of the way and your rush slashes thin air.

[LionZero.3479]

It's a shame this game has no true server sided pvp, but rather client sided position forwarding.

 

Kitten like that wouldn't be a problem anymore then.

[aymnad.9023]

7 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Hard to say. I think terrain definitely plays a role, esp with Bulls charge. I personally find Rush to be the biggest offender. Rush seems to work well (relatively) when used at very long range, but when used at close or mid range, it's like a 50/50 chance of actually running away from or perpendicular to the target, even on flat terrain. I really have no idea why this happens.

 

It usually works as intended when no target is selected (i.e. you are trying to run away), but I have had multiple times where I deliberately de-selected the target and Rush ran at them anyways.

 

TLDR: Rush at your own risk.

Thank you for those explanations! I played core warrior 2 seasons ago but dropped gs for mace + axe (it was more fun and I had more success) and might have been more lucky in the past with gs. I will try it sometime.

Edited October 30, 2021 by aymnad.9023

[Vancho.8750]

This, thread should be in the warrior side of the forum. For one movement skill also aply for PVE since they kitten up there also. Secoond devs read the class forums way more than the pvp one.

[Noz.4650]

Here's a clip of literally my first game today. I clearly have the mesmer targeted the whole time, not a clone or someone else, and I'm on NA east so latency isn't an issue on my end. You might say I detargeted during the Rush but I only did once the cast was over and it had gone way past my target anyway. This isn't even that extreme of a case either, sequences more or less like these happen way more often than they should. Does it have to do with my opponent's latency? Wacky netcode? Is it the skills themselves?

 

Edited November 1, 2021 by eksn.7264

[Leonidrex.5649]

1 hour ago, eksn.7264 said:

Here's a clip of literally my first game today. I clearly have the mesmer targeted the whole time, not a clone or someone else, and I'm on NA east so latency isn't an issue on my end. You might say I detargeted during the Rush but I only did once the cast was over and it had gone way past my target anyway. This isn't even that extreme of a case either, sequences more or less like these happen way more often than they should. Does it have to do with my opponent's latency? Whacky netcode? Is it the skills themselves?

 

ironically I never had this happen while playing with action camera, I think its mostly down to the fact your character is looking in a certain direction, and uses those mobility skills forward instead towards the target

[bethekey.8314]

I can only really comment on/from my Engineer experience.

On 10/29/2021 at 3:45 PM, eksn.7264 said:

Why does this not happen on any other class, or at the very least at a fraction of the rate it happens on warrior?

Do you have data for this, or is it just made up? For instance, I hardly see Bull's Charge mess up. It's one of those amazing, "do-everything" skills that essentially evades, ports, and stuns (used to do dmg too in PvP). If you've ever played Engineer's toolkit, you'd know that the pull fails to bring two targets together much less often than Bull's Charge. So much so, I don't even bother to record it, but I have other bug examples here. This is how it feels to be on the other end of Rush's and Bull's Charge's BS (sound warning) :

 

I play with ~50 ping, but can't comment on the warrior's ping here. Rush appears to hit a full pillar width away and Bull's Charge (seemingly cast without line of sight ) goes around two sharp corners to reach me. As @Widmo.3186 pointed out, "fixing" these skills might actually hurt your chances of landing them.

On the Engineer side of things there's Jump Shot, which either moves you no where or does this:

 

On 10/29/2021 at 3:45 PM, eksn.7264 said:

Those are all very high impact skills and even one of them missing can put you in a terrible position

Engineer's offhand pistol (one of only two offhands) only has 1 damaging, impactful skill called Blowtorch and a terrible CC called Glue Shot. Blowtorch requires you to give up range and go into melee for damage, then does things like this:

Yes, you saw that correctly. Blowtorch misses downed, stationary bodies. This example is egregious, but hopefully you're getting the idea that every class suffers from stupid bugs, even on important skills. Warrior happens to have a lot of movement skills, so I'm not at all surprised some of them bug out.

On 10/29/2021 at 3:45 PM, eksn.7264 said:

They are very telegraphed and easy to dodge to begin with so it just adds insult to injury

This argument is misleading. Warrior has a lot of high impact, telegraphed skills. So many, actually, that most classes can't dodge them all.

Edited November 1, 2021 by bethekey.8314

[Noz.4650]

4 minutes ago, bethekey.8314 said:

I can only really comment on from my Engineer experience.

 

 

Do you have data for this, or is it just made up? For instance, I hardly see Bull's Charge mess up. It's one of those amazing, "do-everything" skills that essentially evades, ports, and stuns (used to do dmg too in PvP). If you've ever played Engineer's toolkit, you'd know that the pull fails to bring two targets together much less often than Bull's Charge. So much so, I don't even bother to record it, but I have other bug examples here. This is how it feels to be on the other end of Rush's and Bull's Charge's BS:

 

https://youtu.be/2UhyrezOklY?t=168

 

I play with ~50 ping, but can't comment on the warrior's ping here. Rush appears to hit a full pillar width away and Bull's Charge (seemingly cast without line of sight ) goes around two sharp corners to reach me. As @Widmo.3186 pointed out, "fixing" these skills might actually hurt your chances of landing them.

 

On the Engineer side of things there's Jump Shot, which either moves you no where or does this:

 

https://youtu.be/2UhyrezOklY?t=93

 

 

 

Engineer's offhand pistol (one of only two offhands) only has 1 damaging, impactful skill called Blowtorch and a terrible CC called Glue Shot. Blowtorch requires you to give up range and go into melee for damage, then does things like this:

 

https://youtu.be/2UhyrezOklY?t=213

 

Yes, you saw that correctly. Blowtorch misses downed, stationary bodies. This example is egregious, but hopefully you're getting the idea that every class suffers from stupid bugs, even on important skills. Warrior happens to have a lot of movement skills, so I'm not at all surprised some of the bug out.

 

 

This argument is misleading. Warrior has a lot of high impact, telegraphed skills. So many, actually, that most classes can't dodge them all.

Again with the whataboutism.. This is the second time in this thread I acknowledge that other classes have similar issues. I'm only addressing movement skills here, and no I'm not keeping data like wtf? You don't need data to know that no other movement skill misses as much as bull's charge and rush, it's been 9 years and everyone knows that. And in the context of warrior's gameplan, you rely on those skills to not get kited to death and trade efficiently so every missed bull's charge is very punishing, and as you can see in my clip even shield bash can completely miss.

Your rush/bull's charge clip: looks like you were far but still in max melee range so you got hit, and that bull's charge is exactly how it should work every time.

For the jump shot clip: I think you got unlucky by clicking a background element behind you when your camera gets stuck in the background for a second.

[bethekey.8314]

1 hour ago, eksn.7264 said:

Again with the whataboutism

You were the one who compared warrior to other classes. You claimed:

On 10/29/2021 at 3:45 PM, eksn.7264 said:

Why does this not happen on any other class, or at the very least at a fraction of the rate it happens on warrior?

So my examples are relevant. Your claim is also hilarious, because 1. every class has tons of bugs 2. the bugs on warrior movement skills often help you.

1 hour ago, eksn.7264 said:

no I'm not keeping data like wtf?

The don't make broad, sweeping claims about rates.

1 hour ago, eksn.7264 said:

it's been 9 years and everyone knows that

Solid argument.

1 hour ago, eksn.7264 said:

you rely on those skills

Everyone relies on their skills working to not die. You're not special.

As for your warrior clips, I think you got unlucky by clicking a background element behind you when your camera gets stuck in the background for a second.

Edited November 1, 2021 by bethekey.8314

[Noz.4650]

35 minutes ago, bethekey.8314 said:

You were the one who compared warrior to other classes. You claimed:

So my examples are relevant. Your claim is also hilarious, because 1. every class has tons of bugs 2. the bugs on warrior movement skills often help you.

The don't make broad, sweeping claims about rates.

Solid argument.

Everyone relies on their skills working to not die. You're not special.

As for your warrior clips, I think you got unlucky by clicking a background element behind you when your camera gets stuck in the background for a second.

1. How can I counter my own argument with whataboutism...?

2. Yes every class has tons of bugs, but dismissing the original issue by bringing up another is whataboutism. And again, I acknowledged that other classes suffer from netcode jank as well.

3. In thousands of warrior games I've never had bull's charge not work as intended in my favor.

4. Warrior is super barebones compared to other specs by design, missing even one skill can be very punishing because you just don't have that much to play around to begin with. I don't think I'm special, I wish ANet could fix everything because I like playing all classes and I've been screwed over many times on all of them by netcode jank. Bull's Charge and Rush however miss more than any other movement skill, not even close, and after 9 years you'd think it wouldn't be a controversial thing to say.

If you want to bring up other issues (and god knows there are many), then by all means just make your own thread. More visibility is always better, there's no need to dismiss particular issues because other classes also have them. I don't understand the need to be confrontational about wanting to fix the game we all play.

Edited November 2, 2021 by eksn.7264

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Folks, there are still lots of bugs that have persisted for years on many classes, @eksn.7264 mentioned this, so stop with the whataboutism. It sucks for all of us when skills bug out.

That said even during the Vindicator discussion on the live stream CMC even joked about how they 'fixed' rush for the Vindicator. This is a long running and known issue that has been persistently left to fester.

Warrior has fewer skills at it's disposal to be effective with compared to other classes, which means that having them not function as intended is actively detrimental to it's gameplay.

[lightDestroyer.1265]

5 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

You were the one who compared warrior to other classes. You claimed:

So my examples are relevant. Your claim is also hilarious, because 1. every class has tons of bugs 2. the bugs on warrior movement skills often help you.

The don't make broad, sweeping claims about rates.

Solid argument.

Everyone relies on their skills working to not die. You're not special.

As for your warrior clips, I think you got unlucky by clicking a background element behind you when your camera gets stuck in the background for a second.

You are an engi main, and don't know anything abt warrior so don't talk abt it.   If yoy knew anything at all abt warriors,  you would know movement skills are the best and only thing warrior has to avoid dmg. 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

42 minutes ago, lightDestroyer.1265 said:

You are an engi main, and don't know anything abt warrior so don't talk abt it.   If yoy knew anything at all abt warriors,  you would know movement skills are the best and only thing warrior has to avoid dmg. 

This engi knows warrior. I disagree with their stance on rush personally, but personal experience tells me they have a pretty good idea what they're talking about.

You're right about the nuance of the situation though. I don't have much of an issue with the warrior movement skills since I've gotten used to how they work (so I didn't feel like I needed to comment), but I wanted to point out that the dashes being wonky at times is an issue because warrior has issues with reliable damage avoidance in general.

On 10/29/2021 at 3:45 PM, eksn.7264 said:

I don't think asking to fix broken skills that warrior relies on to even be competitive with other classes at all is that much to ask.

The problem is warrior doesn't have enough damage mitigation for what it's expected to deal with at this time.

I would rather Anet adjust some of the mitigation skill cooldowns by 5-10 seconds instead of attempting to rework rush/bulls charge at this time. Yes, rush and charge are susceptible to wonkiness, but it would be less of a gamble to just get stance cooldowns reduced, shield cooldown reduced instead of hoping Anet mechanically reworks that skill in a way that satisfies both pve and pvp. 

 

Endure pain, Shield Stance, and Zerker Stance in particular can all stand to have cd's reduced. If these dashes havent been fixed for the entirety of warrior's presence in this game, let's not hope for a Hail Mary so that they can finally disengage with it and focus on the things that are more reliable and direct to address. 

Edited November 2, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261