The Friendslist, Why I think it needs to be changed [Merged]

[Charall.4710]

7 minutes ago, Shaogin.2679 said:

I think simply implementing your first and second proposals would solve the issue really. It is actually a great idea and I don't really see a problem with it being implemented at all.

It would really not be that hard even, those two things alone yes would go a great deal into solving the major issues with the friend system but overall there also needs to be some additional steps put into place at least in my opinion. Like that report feature in game I mentioned, its annoying having to log onto the support website to handle something that occurred in game.

Edit: I am gonna stay on this topic and not be thrown off anymore, sorry to those who wish otherwise.

Edited November 16, 2021 by Dravvi.3146

[Shaogin.2679]

1 minute ago, Dravvi.3146 said:

It would really not be that hard even, those two things alone yes would go a great deal into solving the major issues with the friend system but overall there also needs to be some additional steps put into place at least in my opinion. Like that report feature in game I mentioned, its annoying having to log onto the support website to handle something that occurred in game.

I'm not following. There is a report feature in game already.

[Charall.4710]

2 minutes ago, Shaogin.2679 said:

I'm not following. There is a report feature in game already.

I mean detailed reports like we have on the website but not in game, SE allows for it in FFXIV and it makes things much much simpler. In game we only have the ability to right click & report from a basic list of offenses. Not copy/paste stuff from the chat box into a detailed report.

Edited November 16, 2021 by Dravvi.3146

[IndigoSundown.5419]

On 11/15/2021 at 10:53 PM, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

(A) Then make a reasonable argument in favor of privacy changes without using make shift arguments of harassment.

It is an absolute legitimate argument to say: I dislike others being able to follow me. Please add an option for players who dislike this feature. Done.

(B) No need to make any claims that this has to do with harassment or anything else because as far as harassment, that can be dealt with adequately in the game. The issue is players come here, make up wild stories believing that make something more outrageous than it is somehow gives their idea/opinion more weight. This game neither has a huge harassment problem, at least not compared to the industry norm/standard of the genre (though aiming to be even better is always good) nor are players absolutely helpless to combat this.

(A) I thought I had.

 

(B) I don't often get harassed in games, perhaps because I tend to ghost in games.  For example, I only respond to requests for info via whisper rather than map chat.  Neither my, nor your experience needs to be the basis on which the experience of others is judged.  Neither of us can say that someone's claim to have been harassed is a "wild story."  For example, I tend to believe that the claims of incessant harassment by those who object to open world dueling are overblown, but I cannot say for sure, so I share my experience and move on.  FWIW, the times I have been communicated with in ways that I dislike in such games were by male characters when I was playing a female character.  As a result, I am more likely to believe someone claiming male --> female harassment.

 

As to "block" being adequate... no. As long as someone can locate you in game, they can find you and do annoying things regardless of not being able to "speak."

 

Regardless, I am in favor of ANet waking up, smelling the coffee, and realizing that any system that can be abused in a game, especially a massively-populated game, will be abused, and that taking steps to short-circuit potential abuse is a good idea.

Edited November 17, 2021 by IndigoSundown.5419

[Charall.4710]

2 hours ago, Hashberry.4510 said:

The modern discourse has created many people obsessed with harassment issues. We had a thicker skin years ago and did not expect authorities to intervene in petty disagreements.

Things change, humanity changes, stuff needs updating.

[Tuna Bandit.3786]

Not ran into any harrasment, but will give my 2 cents on the topic.

I was suprised when I learned that people can ad you to your friend's list and know when you are on and where, without you being aware of it. I find the follower section a bit weird in these times.

The biggest thing that suprised me, is how the system works. A friend got harrassed by someone in WvW and I was like "ow block him" but apparantly the person then started to gank them. Only when my friend set themselves to "offline" that stopped. But they were at that stage offline for everyone. 

I have on very simple suggestion:

When I block someone, remove my name from that person's friends list as well and don't allow them to ad it back.

That would solve a lot already. 

[Charall.4710]

1 hour ago, Tuna Bandit.3786 said:

Not ran into any harrasment, but will give my 2 cents on the topic.

I was suprised when I learned that people can ad you to your friend's list and know when you are on and where, without you being aware of it. I find the follower section a bit weird in these times.

The biggest thing that suprised me, is how the system works. A friend got harrassed by someone in WvW and I was like "ow block him" but apparantly the person then started to gank them. Only when my friend set themselves to "offline" that stopped. But they were at that stage offline for everyone. 

I have on very simple suggestion:

When I block someone, remove my name from that person's friends list as well and don't allow them to ad it back.

That would solve a lot already. 

This also 😛 but a friend request system rather than a follower system would eliminate that entirely.

[AgentMoore.9453]

3 hours ago, Hashberry.4510 said:

The modern discourse has created many people obsessed with harassment issues.

Harassment is not a modern issue. It has always existed, as have requests for features to help combat it. This isn't new. People asking for basic tools to curate their social experience in an MMO isn't a big ask, and many games already have these as an industry standard. Why GuildWars2 chooses to lag behind in this regard is peculiar and worth discussing.

I understand the kneejerk reaction to say 'well, people should learn to socialize' or 'can't you just block them?', but that's not what this is about. This is people looking for practical ways to deal with those who can't behave themselves without having to resort to requesting intervention from a higher power. The current social system in GW2 has weaknesses that have been well-documented in this thread, and to me that seems like a solid reason to consider changes. If adjusting the way the friend/follow/block system works would remove stress from users without introducing new stress, I can only see this as a win for everybody.

No one should be against this, and thus far I've not seen a compelling argument for why someone might be opposed to the introduction of something that's normal in most virtual social spaces.

[JustTrogdor.7892]

I also think the friend/follower system could use improvement.   I've never really been harassed in game.   I've had a few weirdos follow me around on a map constantly standing in front of me and minor things like that.  No big deal.  But I think when a player blocks someone it should remove the person blocked as a follower and make it so they are unable to follow again as long as they are blocked.   I can't speak to how easy that would be for Anet to implement but it does seem like blocking someone should do so.    I can't see any negatives for such a system.

 

 

 

[Charall.4710]

1 hour ago, JustTrogdor.7892 said:

I also think the friend/follower system could use improvement.   I've never really been harassed in game.   I've had a few weirdos follow me around on a map constantly standing in front of me and minor things like that.  No big deal.  But I think when a player blocks someone it should remove the person blocked as a follower and make it so they are unable to follow again as long as they are blocked.   I can't speak to how easy that would be for Anet to implement but it does seem like blocking someone should do so.    I can't see any negatives for such a system.

 

 

 

So heres why I think a friend request system would be more effective than what we have and would actually help with your suggestion, I'll throw you a scenario:

Player A & Player B are PvPing on opposing teams, Player A gets killed one to many times and gets upset with Player B. Player A then proceeds to send player B a message in whispers about how they think Player B is bad at the game and blah blah blah. Player B then decides to just block Player A and move on with his day, Well since Player A is blocked by Player B? They try to send a friend request to Player B but the game comes back with an error message saying "This player has you blocked." Effectively stopping the harassment dead in its tracks and since in this scenario a follower system does not exist? Player A cannot know where Player B is when they hop maps or what have you.

[Rogue.8235]

I really am not seeing the issue here.  Block and move on.  You don't need to deal with it or engage with it, just block it and let them continue to be ...  ultimately self-destructive with that kind of behavior.

 

What can someone really do to you when blocked?  Jump around (like the majority of players already do)?

 

Also:

I, personally, have experienced extreme irritation with players that skip mobs in the open world.  When they don't take the time to fight them, I have to end up killing the mobs.  Obviously, this is a catastrophic problem with the game that everyone experiences and must be addressed immediately by ArenaNet.  Don't worry, there is no cost or time involved in implementing new systems to address this rampant problem that everyone faces because of course they do since I do.

/reductio ad absurdum

[Charall.4710]

3 hours ago, Rogue.8235 said:

I really am not seeing the issue here.  Block and move on.  You don't need to deal with it or engage with it, just block it and let them continue to be ...  ultimately self-destructive with that kind of behavior.

Block and move on doesn't work as many people think it does at least in gw2, the problem is even if you block them they are going to follow you from map to map to harass you and the GM's are gonna brush off reports about it. It's extremely stressful when it does happen.

[PeachyPleasure.8049]

Okay so, so far everyone who is not supporting this change basically says that "block them and move on, I don't see any problem here".

 

I can understand that there are players who can easily move on, it's great, I am happy for you (no sarcasm). What I can not understand is, why it's hard to believe that people are different and some people can find this behaviour more disturbing than you? You can ask them to have thicker skin and such, but I find it quite ridiculous that people basically asking others to change their normal behaviour (frustration over the lack of real, fast and effective way of getting rid of these unwanted interactions) while with this you are unintentionally supporting a toxic one. As others already pointed it out, this minor change will take nothing away from you, but give something to others. Just because you have never faced a problem, that problem can still exist.

 

To the part of how harrassment is a modern and over dramatized fake problem: it's not, but the way how some people harass others are definitely have changed. Nowadays you don't need to have the balls to stand in front of the person you want to annoy and take the heat, instead you can hide behind a screen knowing that nothing will happen to you, no matter what you are saying. I think this is already enough "help" to people like this to keep up with their bad habits, no need to encourage them even more.

[Zohane.7208]

I have to say I like the current system; I have people I follow who have chosen to not follow me, and vice versa. This works really well (for me).

Harrassment should not be handled by disabling systems that work well for lots and lots of people. Rather, it should be dealt with by Anet, through the report system. Actions would need to be swift, and outcomes for harrassers would need to be severe. (Then comes the question of what would actually count as harrassment, but that's another discussion entirely...)

 

That said, I don't think it'd be a bad thing if Anet were to implement a way for people to - optionally - change over to a mutual friends system, as long as it doesn't mean forcibly removing the current system for those of us that still want it. Not sure if it'd be worth the cost and developer time, though.

[PeachyPleasure.8049]

38 minutes ago, Zohane.7208 said:

I have to say I like the current system; I have people I follow who have chosen to not follow me, and vice versa. This works really well (for me).

Harrassment should not be handled by disabling systems that work well for lots and lots of people. Rather, it should be dealt with by Anet, through the report system. Actions would need to be swift, and outcomes for harrassers would need to be severe. (Then comes the question of what would actually count as harrassment, but that's another discussion entirely...)

 

That said, I don't think it'd be a bad thing if Anet were to implement a way for people to - optionally - change over to a mutual friends system, as long as it doesn't mean forcibly removing the current system for those of us that still want it. Not sure if it'd be worth the cost and developer time, though.

I agree with you in most parts. I can see why some like the following system as they can use it in the way it was intended. I am not saying that the follower feature should be completely wiped out, but if someone blocked a player for any reason, that player should not be able to keep track of them in any ways. I think this is (one of) the major issue(s) here, as the system in it's current state really do not makes sense.

 

I am all in for the severe outcomes, but I am suspecting that is something which will never really happen, sadly. So at least blocking should be a real obstacle, instead of a half solution.

 

I am going to be honest, I have no clue how much resources this change would need, so I am not going to debate about that part. For me, it would worth it, because I believe no one should be wasting their precious game time with submitting tickets and gathering evidence or constantly hiding offline just so they can avoid these type of players. But, this is my subjective, personal opinion and I can understand if others would see this as a waste of dev resources.

[Zohane.7208]

10 minutes ago, PeachyPleasure.8049 said:

I agree with you in most parts. I can see why some like the following system as they can use it in the way it was intended. I am not saying that the follower feature should be completely wiped out, but if someone blocked a player for any reason, that player should not be able to keep track of them in any ways. I think this is (one of) the major issue(s) here, as the system in it's current state really do not makes sense.

 

I am all in for the severe outcomes, but I am suspecting that is something which will never really happen, sadly. So at least blocking should be a real obstacle, instead of a half solution.

 

I am going to be honest, I have no clue how much resources this change would need, so I am not going to debate about that part. For me, it would worth it, because I believe no one should be wasting their precious game time with submitting tickets and gathering evidence or constantly hiding offline just so they can avoid these type of players. But, this is my subjective, personal opinion and I can understand if others would see this as a waste of dev resources.

The bolded part highlights a fundamental flaw of the block system indeed. 

[Rasimir.6239]

I feel that the asynchronous friend system has considerable part in the success of casual, non-organized multiplayer content of this game. If I encounter a good commander in wvw or on the world boss train, or meet a cool person while pugging dungeons or fractals that mentions pugging them regularly, I can friend them and join in again at a later time without polluting their friend list.

 

I support allowing people to opt out of having followers (e.g. only people that they follow can follow them back), and I support the idea that blocking somebody removes myself from their friend list (and doesn't allow them to follow me again as long as I block them), but I firmly oppose the idea to only allow mutual friendships, since that would seriously impact the non-/semi-organized multiplayer content and lining up with people and communities that suit your playing habits.

[Embered.5089]

WvW is one of the more toxic parts of gw2. That's natural, since it's pvp. I rarely play WvW, and I've never had anyone harass me over PM or mail. Occasionally it happens through map chat, and the block function is sufficient for me.

If the follower's option is opt-in, that would be fine for me. As long as it's not completely removed. I mentor people often, and I have many mentee followers. It would be bad if I had to add all of them just so they had my name to ask me questions. My actual friends would be buried under all of those mentees.

The few times that I've heard people complain about harassment that the block function couldn't solve were all from WvWers. It's fine if things were implemented to reduce WvW harassment, so long as they don't affect PvE players.

Why not just make all WvW enemies nameless? They could all just say "[Faction] Enemy" (where the "faction" is the team they're on) instead of what their character name is. Then even if you got salty at someone, you wouldn't know who to message. I think that's a better solution. Can also remove map chat in WvW, so the most map-wide chat that you can use is team chat.

[Rasimir.6239]

42 minutes ago, Embered.5089 said:

Why not just make all WvW enemies nameless? They could all just say "[Faction] Enemy" (where the "faction" is the team they're on) instead of what their character name is.

Things already work this way. If you meet an enemy player, all you see is their rank title and server name. You also don't get the option to whisper/invite a player on an enemy server from the context menu (don't ask me how many guildies I've thrown out of our guild over the years from quickly wanting to whisper them from wvw and not looking at the context menu 🤣).

 

You can however block every player, including wvw enemies, by targeting and right-clicking them (which is definitely needed 😉 ).  You can then see their character name in your blocklist (which is fine since it helps you to avoid those people if you happen to stumble upon them in other game modes). Combine that with chat commands or even context menu outside of wvw maps, and you can see where the problems come in.

I'm not sure how you can prevent that kind of harassment/misuse without blocking a lot of regular interactions at the same time. For example one of my daughters plays wvw on a different server, and we are regularly in the same matchup on different sides. We still communicate both through guild chat and personal whispers, and send each other mail. Obscuring character names in that case would be a real nuisance.

 

Aside from that, I doubt that the people who have problems with harassment have that only in wvw. I've seen a lot of behaviour that some might see as harassment in pve, too, especially when it comes to multiplayer content. It's human nature that some are more sensitive or just sensitive to different things than others, especially when you mix people from different social backgrounds, countries, even continents. That's human nature for you.

[ProtoGunner.4953]

7 hours ago, PeachyPleasure.8049 said:

Okay so, so far everyone who is not supporting this change basically says that "block them and move on, I don't see any problem here".

 

I can understand that there are players who can easily move on, it's great, I am happy for you (no sarcasm). What I can not understand is, why it's hard to believe that people are different and some people can find this behaviour more disturbing than you? You can ask them to have thicker skin and such, but I find it quite ridiculous that people basically asking others to change their normal behaviour (frustration over the lack of real, fast and effective way of getting rid of these unwanted interactions) while with this you are unintentionally supporting a toxic one. As others already pointed it out, this minor change will take nothing away from you, but give something to others. Just because you have never faced a problem, that problem can still exist.

 

To the part of how harrassment is a modern and over dramatized fake problem: it's not, but the way how some people harass others are definitely have changed. Nowadays you don't need to have the balls to stand in front of the person you want to annoy and take the heat, instead you can hide behind a screen knowing that nothing will happen to you, no matter what you are saying. I think this is already enough "help" to people like this to keep up with their bad habits, no need to encourage them even more.

I never had such issues in any games. Assholes I blocked, sure, but never 'harrassment'. I think the problem here generally is that people make it a problem. I really don't care if someone 'follows' me if that ever happened to me anyways. If you have such issues even in a virtual world, please go see a consultant. This should be not the norm.

[PepperPatrol.2139]

I think an important thing to remember is that while gw2 does have a very friendly community overall, this doesn't negate the existence of toxic people. Particularly, toxic people who might have been your friend before their toxic behavior started. Blocking them doesn't take you off their friendlist. The fact that I cannot stop a toxic person from following me and knowing when and where I'm online, is a real problem. The only solution anet have given me to a toxic follower is to completely isolate myself and appear offline to everyone. No whispers, no guild chat. And this problem is not a wvw thing bc I generally didn't play wvw at the height of encountering this problem myself.

 

I literally inherited a guild bc "guild leader got a stalker and basically disappeared." And to be frank theres 101 ways to get around being blocked in game and that doesn't even touch on the fact that they can still figure out you're in game, where you are, and contact you on some other form of social media. Anet will not do anything about them harassing you on discord even though the inability to remove followers is a direct cause of that harrassment. I have watched this, over the last 9 years, happen to at least three people. Where just one sufficiently determined person made the game unplayable and blocking them actually made it so anet wouldn't do anything about them.

 

The game has definitely needed an update to the follower system for a long while. Even just the ability to say no when people follow without necessarily making it a mutual friends system. There's plenty of people on my current follower list that I'd just prefer if they weren't bc I dont particularly like them and not bc they annoy me to the point of blocking them. And I can't think of a single, acceptable reason why people you block can still see what map you're on. There is a divide between "who I'm willing to play games with" and "who I want to actually know where I am at all times" that the current friendlist doesn't allow me to make.

Edited November 17, 2021 by PepperPatrol.2139

[Charall.4710]

So here is my concern with a opt in follower's system vs a friend request system and why I think it really would not have that big of impact if they changed it. Hear me out.

A Follower's system at all has to go both ways, not one or the other. So if Player A opts out but Player B does not, Player A opting out would have to block both Player A and Player B from adding one or the other to a friendslist. Sending one or the other a error message should they try to add the other, but this also poses a challenge for Player A.. How does Player A go about adding people they want to play with? Well.. We come down to this.. Friend Requests.

Friend Requests are inherently safer and while the notion of clicking the dreaded accept button may bother some, it still has the benefit of allowing you to add people whenever you choose to. It would not effect grouping or running into others in the open world since a friend request is by nature used when two people like eachother in some way. Be It doing content or anything really.

The only individuals who would likely not benefit from a friend request system is streamers or content creators, but even that is a bit incorrect since we have commander tags and a party group finder system in guild wars 2. Mind you I'm a content creator myself just not for GW2.

Now that being said I cannot state this enough for Anet to read really:

Blocking a player should prevent any and all interaction between said player and the one that blocked them including being able to add them and follow them around, I don't know where the idea came from that a person can block someone while the other follows them is a good idea but no. This needs to be addressed, it's been 9 years and this is still a problem.

Edited November 17, 2021 by Dravvi.3146
Just woke up, cant spell.

[Skynet.7201]

Here's an alternative view of this, and it needs to be considered, and it goes beyond GW2.

Having been stalked for months by someone in the game (and found on social media), I'd prefer to still have the capability of seeing where they are to avoid them. This highly unstable person is still playing, and as I have heard from other people, the pattern of creepy behavior continues to this day, but more on their personal Discord so as to avoid any violations of Terms of Service, and to stay off Anet's radar and not get banned again (they were reported and temp banned for harassment). Anyone that watches modern crime shows knows that the situation I and others endured definitely fits the pattern of evolving behavior.

As for me, I want to know where this person is so I don't go to a map they're on, and there's no way any suggestions in this thread takes that into consideration. I want to see where they are and not go there. This friend's list system is still way safer than social media. Take screenshots, make a ticket, rinse and repeat if needed. There's always going to be weird and creepy people online.
,

[Charall.4710]

3 hours ago, Skynet.7201 said:

Here's an alternative view of this, and it needs to be considered, and it goes beyond GW2.

Having been stalked for months by someone in the game (and found on social media), I'd prefer to still have the capability of seeing where they are to avoid them. This highly unstable person is still playing, and as I have heard from other people, the pattern of creepy behavior continues to this day, but more on their personal Discord so as to avoid any violations of Terms of Service, and to stay off Anet's radar and not get banned again (they were reported and temp banned for harassment). Anyone that watches modern crime shows knows that the situation I and others endured definitely fits the pattern of evolving behavior.

As for me, I want to know where this person is so I don't go to a map they're on, and there's no way any suggestions in this thread takes that into consideration. I want to see where they are and not go there. This friend's list system is still way safer than social media. Take screenshots, make a ticket, rinse and repeat if needed. There's always going to be weird and creepy people online.
,

For some people that maybe true and in instances like that, the authorities are the best one can really do unfortunately. But there are situations like my friend where a friend request system would definitely make the biggest difference.

[Lyssia.4637]

3 hours ago, Skynet.7201 said:

Here's an alternative view of this, and it needs to be considered, and it goes beyond GW2.

 

As for me, I want to know where this person is so I don't go to a map they're on, and there's no way any suggestions in this thread takes that into consideration. I want to see where they are and not go there. This friend's list system is still way safer than social media. Take screenshots, make a ticket, rinse and repeat if needed. There's always going to be weird and creepy people online.
,

AFAIK, you can still see where people on your block list are.  At least, I still see where people on my blocklist are, and I'm sure I'm not on ANY list of theirs; I blocked them for team chat obnoxiousness in WvW. 

Regardless, perhaps the simplest solution is just to allow you to right click on anyone on your followers list and force them to stop following you, with them not being able to add you back on until you toggle the "block" off again.  Minimal change to the system, doesn't take anything at all away from the good parts of it, and yet it takes care of the single biggest problem.

Edited November 17, 2021 by Lyssia.4637