Mastery System's main flaw

[AquaBR.9250]

Just giving my feedback about the mastery system and how i feel playing Guild Wars 2

I really enjoy leveling up masteries, more that i would enjoy just getting my character a level stronger like it is in other MMOs, but i'll go straight to the point:
Is a experience i only get for 3 weeks every 3 years, and for 2 days every 3 months.

 

As getting mastery points is very challenging, getting the required XP to level it only take some hours, and im talking about 3 or so, given the latest expansions and EoD will only have like 20 or less masteries to level, that will be a fast experience.

 

Taking an egg going around the map following a wiki is a boring grind, collecting coins around the map looking at a wiki is a boring grind, leveling and exploring in Guild Wars 2 is NOT a boring grind.

The time consuming events you put around the maps are boring for one main reason: i'll spend my next 20 minutes defending this cow for 200 karma and 3 silver, only that, since after you level a mastery GW2 becomes one of the few (if not the only) MMOs where XP is useless. So basically i spend 4 hours defending cows for what? A  S P I R I T  S H A R D

 

So basically, i finish leveling all my masteries before i finish even half of the expansion's content.

HoT was kinda okay because we had TONS of masteries to level, 27 masteries to unlock
PoF we had 17 masteries, 20 with griffon, like 10 less than HoT
Icebrood saga is the winner with 30 masteries!
By the looks of it, EoD will have 20

But the main problem is, the XP bar is too easy to fill, Xandrii said something about it "Leveling in this game is so cool, i just wish it was not so fast, i wanna do it more.".

Leveling masteries is not even an effort, is something you do naturally while doing any kind of content you'd like, it just makes the experience more rewarding, and with a sense of progress while doing it.

 

Now, in my opinion you could increase the bar for 5 times and still would not feel like a tiresome job, maybe will give some use to the 20 xp boosts i have laying around, and having something other than S P I R I T  S H A R D S would also helps for when you finish everything, maybe some kind of reward tracks for PvE, some living world maps don't even award map currency for events, bunch of cool content that the game gives me no reason to do.

[Malice.5867]

I think that they made it this way because there are a ton of casual players. In some places, you need to level a specific mastery to progress in the story. Imagine a super casual player that logs in for an hour every other day or so. If they make the bars 5 times longer to fill this means that this player will have to spend the next few gaming sessions (probably about 1-2 weeks for him) to grind it out. How excited will this player be to play the game? He wants to finish the story and he is randomly bottlenecked by a 5 hour grind he doesn't care about.
As someone that has a bit more time to play, I would prefer if it worked the way you suggested, but I understand that this is not the best for the game overall. 

 

The Spirit Shards on the other hand- I believe that we need better rewards indeed. Unless you go for ascended/legendary you don't need them at all. And even when you do, you don't need that many. Now that I have all the ascended/legendary gear I need and get rewarded with a Spirit Shard I don't even think about it as a reward. It's just another useless thing that piles up for no reason. 

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Don't use the Wiki and maybe it won't be so 'boring'?  If you don't take the shortcuts, perhaps leveling your Masteries will take longer.  🤷‍♂️

[Gibson.4036]

Leveling happens naturally doing whatever you want to do is one of the core features some of us have loved from the beginning of the game.

Please don’t turn masteries into a slog to please the people who play this game huge numbers of hours. Truth is, they’ll still burn through it quickly and complain there’s nothing left to do until the next release.

The amount of time it takes to fill up a bar for masteries feels just right as it is.

New, different rewards for a full bar after masteries are complete? That’s a good idea.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Gibson.4036

[AquaBR.9250]

6 hours ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

Don't use the Wiki and maybe it won't be so 'boring'?  If you don't take the shortcuts, perhaps leveling your Masteries will take longer.  🤷‍♂️

Yeah i'll spend an entire week running around the map looking for something the size of my thumb that is in a invisible hole somewere, the way you speak appears to me that you never tried it yourself, try Token Collector from ember bay

Edited December 2, 2021 by AquaBR.9250

[AquaBR.9250]

7 hours ago, Malice.5867 said:

I think that they made it this way because there are a ton of casual players. In some places, you need to level a specific mastery to progress in the story. Imagine a super casual player that logs in for an hour every other day or so. If they make the bars 5 times longer to fill this means that this player will have to spend the next few gaming sessions (probably about 1-2 weeks for him) to grind it out. How excited will this player be to play the game? He wants to finish the story and he is randomly bottlenecked by a 5 hour grind he doesn't care about.
As someone that has a bit more time to play, I would prefer if it worked the way you suggested, but I understand that this is not the best for the game overall. 

 

The Spirit Shards on the other hand- I believe that we need better rewards indeed. Unless you go for ascended/legendary you don't need them at all. And even when you do, you don't need that many. Now that I have all the ascended/legendary gear I need and get rewarded with a Spirit Shard I don't even think about it as a reward. It's just another useless thing that piles up for no reason. 

If the problem is the first mastery tier that is required to continue the story just keep the first mastery from the line the way it is and increase the required XP for the following ones, done, simple. Good for the casuals who wanna do the story and for the veterans who wanna actually do the one and only progression system in the game for more than 3 weeks every 3 years, and for 2 days every 3 months.

[Randulf.7614]

I prefer a longer xp gain too, which Icebrood saga had reverted back towards. The overwhelming feedback though seems to gravitate towards masteries taking too long and being too grindy. I guess it is hard to find that sweet spot.

My bigger issue is when they add masteries for the sake of masteries

[AquaBR.9250]

6 hours ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

Don't use the Wiki and maybe it won't be so 'boring'?  If you don't take the shortcuts, perhaps leveling your Masteries will take longer.  🤷‍♂️

BTW what using the wiki to get the boring colleting achievments has to do with my XP bar filling up in minutes???????

[Gibson.4036]

Agreed that it’s annoying to add masteries for the sake of masteries. Feels lame to have to progress masteries just to open chests, or to get good loot from them, for example.

[Mungo Zen.9364]

9 hours ago, AquaBR.9250 said:

Just giving my feedback about the mastery system and how i feel playing Guild Wars 2

I really enjoy leveling up masteries, more that i would enjoy just getting my character a level stronger like it is in other MMOs, but i'll go straight to the point:
Is a experience i only get for 3 weeks every 3 years, and for 2 days every 3 months.

 

As getting mastery points is very challenging, getting the required XP to level it only take some hours, and im talking about 3 or so, given the latest expansions and EoD will only have like 20 or less masteries to level, that will be a fast experience.

 

Taking an egg going around the map following a wiki is a boring grind, collecting coins around the map looking at a wiki is a boring grind, leveling and exploring in Guild Wars 2 is NOT a boring grind.

The time consuming events you put around the maps are boring for one main reason: i'll spend my next 20 minutes defending this cow for 200 karma and 3 silver, only that, since after you level a mastery GW2 becomes one of the few (if not the only) MMOs where XP is useless. So basically i spend 4 hours defending cows for what? A  S P I R I T  S H A R D

 

So basically, i finish leveling all my masteries before i finish even half of the expansion's content.

HoT was kinda okay because we had TONS of masteries to level, 27 masteries to unlock
PoF we had 17 masteries, 20 with griffon, like 10 less than HoT
Icebrood saga is the winner with 30 masteries!
By the looks of it, EoD will have 20

But the main problem is, the XP bar is too easy to fill, Xandrii said something about it "Leveling in this game is so cool, i just wish it was not so fast, i wanna do it more.".

Leveling masteries is not even an effort, is something you do naturally while doing any kind of content you'd like, it just makes the experience more rewarding, and with a sense of progress while doing it.

 

Now, in my opinion you could increase the bar for 5 times and still would not feel like a tiresome job, maybe will give some use to the 20 xp boosts i have laying around, and having something other than S P I R I T  S H A R D S would also helps for when you finish everything, maybe some kind of reward tracks for PvE, some living world maps don't even award map currency for events, bunch of cool content that the game gives me no reason to do.

I don't agree with most of your post, I really have no issues with how Masteries are in the game currently.

However, I do like the idea of a selectable reward track to offer alternatives to Spirit Shards.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

1 hour ago, AquaBR.9250 said:

BTW what using the wiki to get the boring colleting achievments has to do with my XP bar filling up in minutes???????

I don't know; I'm not the one that brought it up. 

[Kelian Ravenwood.4130]

10 hours ago, Malice.5867 said:

I think that they made it this way because there are a ton of casual players. In some places, you need to level a specific mastery to progress in the story. Imagine a super casual player that logs in for an hour every other day or so. If they make the bars 5 times longer to fill this means that this player will have to spend the next few gaming sessions (probably about 1-2 weeks for him) to grind it out. How excited will this player be to play the game? He wants to finish the story and he is randomly bottlenecked by a 5 hour grind he doesn't care about.
As someone that has a bit more time to play, I would prefer if it worked the way you suggested, but I understand that this is not the best for the game overall. 

 

The Spirit Shards on the other hand- I believe that we need better rewards indeed. Unless you go for ascended/legendary you don't need them at all. And even when you do, you don't need that many. Now that I have all the ascended/legendary gear I need and get rewarded with a Spirit Shard I don't even think about it as a reward. It's just another useless thing that piles up for no reason. 

I agree that you could increase the XP required for masteries to please some, but I think the overwhelming majority would prefer to keep it as it is (as mentioned by Malice).  
This comes down to a problem I've seen a lot from players who spend more than a couple hours playing each day.  They want more content, more things to do, ways to spend more time, just more stuff; for that, I have the following suggestions for those players (including the OP):
1.) Stop using the wiki.  This will result in a lot more time exploring and attempting to accomplish something.
2.) Stop using new tools for efficiency... when you are in Core Tyria, don't use your mount or gliding.  When in PvP, don't use any bugs that result in being able to pull off that meta-chain.  Don't use the legendary armory (if you have legendaries) and don't swap ascended gear.
3.) Go Hard Mode.  Whenever you die (including down state), start over from the furthest WP from your goal.

4.) Go solo.  Solo a raid boss... it will take a while...

5.) Try to do every event every where.  I've never done this nor heard of anyone even attempting it, but if you want something to take some time...
What I'm saying is, do something to challenge yourself.  I don't think we can blame ANet for providing a plethora of content that we burn through because we have developed external tools to assist us (did ANet include all the collections assuming everyone would use a map to find them???) nor can we blame them for not using the internal tools they did give us to provide a good time for ourselves.  The game is for everyone; have fun with it.
Finally, the spirit shards can be used outside of those crafting legendaries/ascended items, if for nothing else than gaining gold through the Mystic Forge.  I do agree we get them a bit too often and would like to see a retool of the XP rewards to include other items/currencies, but they are a resource if you wish to use them.  
Find what you play the game for, then enjoy playing the game.  Have fun!

[Linken.6345]

And here I thought it would be about playing core hitting max level and a pop up your mastery is leveled up and ready to master pop up every time you gain exp untill you do first mission in hot pof or ibs.

What you complain about is not even a complaint worth mentioning, maybe start doing some gen 1 legendaries to sell or just material promotions to burn those spirit shards hu?

[Shiyo.3578]

People complained that HoT masteries took too long to they nerfed them, now masteries are finished in an hour or two and basically don't exist. Masteries were meant to be a long sidegrade grind and they completely removed the idea behind them. They're basically pointless.

[Vayne.8563]

You've tried to paint this as a flaw in the mastery system. It's not. It's simply your personal preference. And I'm relatively sure if we had a poll and everyone could vote about slowing down how fast they get experience, keeping in the same or speeding it up, slowing it down wouldn't get the highest percentage of votes.

I'm not saying the mastery system is perfect, but there's no way I'd like to see the experience gain for masteries slowed down.  I don't see masteries as an end to themselves anyway but something I get organically playing.  I think it was probably designed that way.

[Alcatraznc.3869]

I dont know, personnally I'm fine with how much exp you need to unlock some masteries. Then again when I'm grinding exp there are some maps that are much more rewarding than other (Dragonfall made grinding exp for Skyscale and underwater Skimer a breeze).

 

However if you're idea of exp grind of masteries to be like BDO where it takes weeks/month to grind for a single level at higher level (oh and I forgot to say it's a weeks/months of gaming as a job) then no, I'm not going to support that idea at all. I like my games to be game where I can afford to go slightly overboard sometime but not treat it as a fulltime job. The reason why I dont enjoy BDO in the first place.  

 

That being said some masteries are straight up useless. The one that annoyed me was in HoT. You had to grind and spend mastery point to unlock a mining skill or something allowing mining in HoT areas to  gives you a rock required for your specialization collection. It is only and only useful to complete that collection, afterward you never ever need it again. If Anet can avoid making more of these, it would be great.

[ThaKrulll.4150]

On 12/2/2021 at 10:26 AM, AquaBR.9250 said:

GW2 becomes one of the few (if not the only) MMOs where XP is useless. So basically i spend 4 hours defending cows for what? A  S P I R I T  S H A R D

Imagine unironically calling spirit shards useless.

[Raskol.3014]

I like the mastery system as it is now.

About the spirit shards I think it would be great if we could choose from some currencies like dungeons tokens. It would be only one but maybe people would be more engaged with farming exp

[Rogue.8235]

On 12/2/2021 at 3:19 PM, Kelian Ravenwood.4130 said:

I agree that you could increase the XP required for masteries to please some, but I think the overwhelming majority would prefer to keep it as it is (as mentioned by Malice).  
This comes down to a problem I've seen a lot from players who spend more than a couple hours playing each day.  They want more content, more things to do, ways to spend more time, just more stuff; for that, I have the following suggestions for those players (including the OP):
1.) Stop using the wiki.  This will result in a lot more time exploring and attempting to accomplish something.
2.) Stop using new tools for efficiency... when you are in Core Tyria, don't use your mount or gliding.  When in PvP, don't use any bugs that result in being able to pull off that meta-chain.  Don't use the legendary armory (if you have legendaries) and don't swap ascended gear.
3.) Go Hard Mode.  Whenever you die (including down state), start over from the furthest WP from your goal.

4.) Go solo.  Solo a raid boss... it will take a while...

5.) Try to do every event every where.  I've never done this nor heard of anyone even attempting it, but if you want something to take some time...
What I'm saying is, do something to challenge yourself.  I don't think we can blame ANet for providing a plethora of content that we burn through because we have developed external tools to assist us (did ANet include all the collections assuming everyone would use a map to find them???) nor can we blame them for not using the internal tools they did give us to provide a good time for ourselves.  The game is for everyone; have fun with it.
Finally, the spirit shards can be used outside of those crafting legendaries/ascended items, if for nothing else than gaining gold through the Mystic Forge.  I do agree we get them a bit too often and would like to see a retool of the XP rewards to include other items/currencies, but they are a resource if you wish to use them.  
Find what you play the game for, then enjoy playing the game.  Have fun!

 

 

The problem with the OP and like-minded players is the reason they play the game.  They play for the rewards, not the game play.

 

Those who play the game because of actual enjoyment of the game itself are not hard pressed to find things they like to do.

Those who only seek rewards find it difficult to find more rewards as they get them.  

 

The problem isn't the way the mastery system is set up.  The problem is that it is extremely difficult to get the online gaming industry (more so its players) to leave behind the Skinner Boxes and actually create/play content for the enjoyment of that content. 

This online gaming industry was so reliant on operant conditioning of players to condition them to stay on the games.  Now, players are so conditioned to seek rewards by staying on the game and grinding for hours that they do not comprehend any other way to play an online game.  

A bigger problem is when the conditioned players want the game to satisfy their conditioning to the detriment of players who have not undergone such operant conditioning.  You turn the game into simple, open0ended engaging gameplay to a Skinner Box where you have to press the button 123478129041 times to get the treats.

 

Think of most in-game rewards as treats.  Think of what you [the reader/player] are doing just to get treats.  That is operant conditioning.

 

Personally, I play the game just to play the game.  Lately, I really enjoy taking my deadeye into Drizzlewood just for the sake of playing as a reconnaissance/precision fires element for the charr legions.  It's just fun to do, nothing more than that.  There is nothing in that map that I feel obligated to do or feel pressured to do.  I don't care about any rewards, I simply play the game.

 

Back to the quoted poster, such a change would require a change in mindset that I don't think the OP is willing to do.

 

Back on topic to the OP.  Please do not increase any experience bar thresholds or prolong anything just for the sake of prolonging chasing the treat.  The problem is that you must have a treat to chase.  Making the game all about chasing treats will change the atmosphere of the game.  The atmosphere of the design should be all about exploration and just having fun playing the game, not a skinner box.

 

 

[Gibson.4036]

People play games for a variety of reasons.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle_taxonomy_of_player_types
 

We should be careful of telling people they play for the wrong ones.

[Rogue.8235]

1 hour ago, Gibson.4036 said:

People play games for a variety of reasons.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle_taxonomy_of_player_types
 

We should be careful of telling people they play for the wrong ones.

 

While the information you linked does provide some good information, it doesn't cover the problems of operant conditioning in online games at all.  The information is a basic overview of types of players to considered when designing a game.

 

Notice that one such category is 

Quote

• Griefer (implicit)
  • Their vague aim is to get a big, bad reputation.

 

You link to this list implying that the reasons for playing listed aren't wrong.  The above quoted paradigm for gameplay is wrong, though.  

If you want, I can cover every moral paradigm in explanation as to why griefing is bad.  I hope I don't have to explain that griefing is bad, as this should be understood by the player community already.

 

What I referred to is operant conditioning and the systematic design of online video games to trigger conditioned behaviors.

On 11/17/2021 at 8:44 PM, Rogue.8235 said:

To understand what is going on with the farming and efficiency mentality of online gaming, see:

Operant Conditioning - basic overview

 The Playing Brain. The Impact of Video Games on Cognition and Behavior in Pediatric Age at the Time of Lockdown: A Systematic Review   Specifically section 3.2. Video Games Effect on Attention and Addictive Behaviors

Pediatric Reports, volume 13, issue 3, pages 401–415., published September 13, 2021.

Why are Some Games More Addictive than Others: The Effects of Timing and Payoff on Perseverance in a Slot Machine Game

Actually  more applicable to online gaming.

Frontiers in Psychology, volume 7, article 46, published February 2, 2016

  

Conditioning players for reward chasing and designing games to solely trigger the conditioned behavior is not really a good thing.  

Living in a Skinner Box is not really a good thing.  The key thing is that this is addictive behavior and games should not be designed to feed into addiction.

If you want more research on how operant conditioning can affect quality of life and operant conditining in online games  I'll look for more.

 

 

[Gibson.4036]

Companies do abuse these things for profit, but it’s still off-base to tell other players they need to play “for the enjoyment” only, and not reward progression.

Griefing is an abusive practice in response to a desire that could be met in non-abusive ways.
 

There is nothing inherently wrong in getting enjoyment from reward structures, and there are games that provide that without being abusive and addictive. There is nothing inherently virtuous in being a person who plays games “for the sake of playing them.”

Edited December 5, 2021 by Gibson.4036

[Astralporing.1957]

On 12/5/2021 at 7:44 PM, Gibson.4036 said:

Griefing is an abusive practice in response to a desire that could be met in non-abusive ways.

Nah. While some griefers do that in order to be noticed (and they just do not care how they're perceived), others do it because they derive their enjoyment from ruining enjoyment of someone else. There's no way to fulfill that desire in non-abusive ways.

[Teratus.2859]

Guessing you were not around during the launch of HoT.

Masteries were originally very grindy and took a long time to unlock because of the EXP cap.
A lot of people disliked this because it limited their ability to explore and complete content due to lacking necessary masteries.

Frankly I support this change, I'd rather complete my masteries quicker than have to grind and grind EXP for them and be forced to repeat content over and over again to get that EXP.
Whenever I am forced to repeat content for something rather than playing it because I want to play it, I rapidly get sick of it and loose interest in playing it in future.
 

[Mungrul.9358]

Having returned to playing GW2 in August 2020 after last playing the game back in 2013, I must admit that the Masteries system confused the hell out of me when I got to HoT, and indicators as to how best advance the masteries in order to advance the story were pretty opaque.

But once I got in to the groove, they came pretty fast.

 

My biggest mastery complaint is with the IBS track.

All previous tracks included enough open world mastery points in order to be completed without having to set foot in an instance (except the raid track, naturally).

Yet if I want to complete the IBS track, there's not enough open world mastery points to complete the track. You have to grind out the four "Glory to the X Legion" cheevos, which are HUGE grinds, and/or shove your head in to strikes and DRMs.

 

But then again, there are enough to complete up to United Legions Waystation Synchronization, with the last section (Dragon Slayer) only being useful in DRMs which I don't play, I've made my peace with that, in much the same way I'll never unlock the Raid-related mastery points.

 

In short, the IBS track is probably the grindiest yet, but at the same time, is less impactful at higher levels than previous tracks.