What if the problem wasn't necromancer

[Terrorhuz.4695]

What if the problem were guardians being able to keep alive a corpse indefinitely and spitting stab for days ? 3 stacks on f3, then 5 stacks on shout, then renewed focus, then some another f3, all in all is some 14s of unstunnable juggernaut with added prot\aegis\cleanse and all that healing ticking on the background, and if the necro happens to die you just need to signet his kitten off trouble and start the circle all over again

Because killing a necro may be hard but is doable. Killing an unstunnable necromancer is another thing. Maybe we should look at guardian's ability to stall every single teamfight?

Edited December 13, 2021 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Sltrmhcaoou.2305]

eh, yes and no.
supports are force multipliers, honestly the devs need to decide if they want supports in pvp and balance around that

[Terrorhuz.4695]

5 minutes ago, oralcumshot.9214 said:

eh, yes and no.
supports are force multipliers, honestly the devs need to decide if they want supports in pvp and balance around that

Support is fine, but they need to decide; tempest can do well some things and not-so-well some other things, same goes for the newly incoming specter and this was true even for scourge when we all hated it back then.

Guardian just does it all; great healing, great boons, great res potential, great cleanse, great stunbreak and excellent survivability if the man is even half capable at kiting once focused.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Terrorhuz.4695

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

19 minutes ago, oralcumshot.9214 said:

eh, yes and no.
supports are force multipliers, honestly the devs need to decide if they want supports in pvp and balance around that

Thing is, Guardian has too many tools to work with, its easily the most OP support class there is, even moreso on Firebrand due to the Tomes. Players have been complaining about it for years in all game modes.

 

Every other support in the game has severe limitations that keep them in balance, even the venerable Revenant and Scrapper, which are considered the other two top supports in competitive modes.

 

Did you know that certain FB builds are capable of providing every single boon except Alac? And in EoD, Guardians can provide Alac as well, further exaberating the problem.

 

Oh, and they can still heal, tank and do significant damage while providing everything.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Hannelore.8153

[ollbirtan.2915]

What if the problem wasn't [insert class], but inability of some players to grasp the basics of pvp, such as - focusing, rotating, kiting, peeling? 🙄

[Ragnar.4257]

41 minutes ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

Thing is, Guardian has too many tools to work with, its easily the most OP support class there is, even moreso on Firebrand due to the Tomes. Players have been complaining about it for years in all game modes.

 

Every other support in the game has severe limitations that keep them in balance, even the venerable Revenant and Scrapper, which are considered the other two top supports in competitive modes.

 

Did you know that certain FB builds are capable of providing every single boon except Alac? And in EoD, Guardians can provide Alac as well, further exaberating the problem.

 

Oh, and they can still heal, tank and do significant damage while providing everything.

You're aware this is the PvP forum?

FB? In PvP? What are you talking about? Alacrity-share Willbender? In PvP?!

Edited December 13, 2021 by Ragnar.4257

[Ragnar.4257]

2 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

What if the problem were guardians being able to keep alive a corpse indefinitely and spitting stab for days ? 3 stacks on f3, then 5 stacks on shout, then renewed focus, then some another f3, all in all is some 14s of unstunnable juggernaut with added prot\aegis\cleanse and all that healing ticking on the background, and if the necro happens to die you just need to signet his kitten off trouble and start the circle all over again

Because killing a necro may be hard but is doable. Killing an unstunnable necromancer is another thing. Maybe we should look at guardian's ability to stall every single teamfight?

And the reason why this specifically causes a problem with necromancer and not, say, Herald or Holo, is....... ?

If A.B is a problem, but A.C and A.D are not problems, why are you concluding that A is the issue, and not B?

Edited December 13, 2021 by Ragnar.4257

[Sltrmhcaoou.2305]

1 hour ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Support is fine, but they need to decide; tempest can do well some things and not-so-well some other things, same goes for the newly incoming specter and this was true even for scourge when we all hated it back then.

Guardian just does it all; great healing, great boons, great res potential, great cleanse, great stunbreak and excellent survivability if the man is even half capable at kiting once focused.

Disadvantage of guardian is lack of mobility, all other supports are much faster to move around.
Its not much of a disadvantage since supports usually sit in one place and do their thing but it is there.
While warrior was a support for example they had MUCH more mobility and self defense the core guard, its still OK build but nothing comperable to guard.
IMO supports in gw2 pvp should be a niche choice and not something mandatory, as they remove counterplay and fun from the game, they just negate things and deny things and dont produce anything and make the game boring.

[Morwath.9817]

Support should be superior in group fights. Otherwise, what reason one has for bringing a dedicated support. If anything, we need more GW1 denial abilities in form of traits like we got Power Block, so you can counter one support with another to some extent.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Morwath.9817

[Genesis.5169]

1 hour ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Support is fine, but they need to decide; tempest can do well some things and not-so-well some other things, same goes for the newly incoming specter and this was true even for scourge when we all hated it back then.

Guardian just does it all; great healing, great boons, great res potential, great cleanse, great stunbreak and excellent survivability if the man is even half capable at kiting once focused.

Support guardian has no damage, tempest and scourge does.

[Spellhunter.9675]

43 minutes ago, Genesis.5169 said:

Support guardian has no damage, tempest and scourge does.

You are wrong.

For example, single F1 press when there is mesmer's clones around can melt faces.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

37 minutes ago, Spellhunter.9675 said:

You are wrong.

For example, single F1 press when there is mesmer's clones around can melt faces.

I should check it out but I'm... 80% sure this doesn't work with mesmer clones (unlike minions, with which it works)

Edited December 13, 2021 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Kuya.6495]

Neg. The reason why there is so many necros is because we're in a burst meta and most of the bunkers and healers have been nerfed to hell. Necros however have essentially a second HP bar and can survive a spike most others would melt in. It's great both for solo queue and for team fights and necros are easy to play. It's no wonder games are stacked with green class. The only exception is scourge that was also nerfed but it synergizes really well with support guard because you can heal through a barrier but that requires coordination and most high end pvp teams don't bother running scourge anyway.

 

Also, firebrand has even more boons but nobody uses it in spvp. 

Edited December 16, 2021 by Kuya.6495

[Dr Meta.3158]

The necromancer greatest weakness is crowd control and guardian elimates that weakness. Necromancer and guardian are both great at controlling team fights which is why the duo has been used in pvp for years and years. 

Necromancer is easy to deal damage with and hard to survive with, however guardian also reduces the need for good survival skills with necromancer which makes this combo very good at stomping most players. As you get higher in MMR, this combo is less potent as players as skilled enough to play around it, thus more mobile strategies are preferable but most players have not and likely will never get to play in that form of pvp and so will continue to struggle against the necromancer/guardian setups as they never level up out of that difficulty curve. 

 

So arenanet has the same dilemma as any other developer for pvp games. Do you balance around the skilled minority or the unskilled majority? It's probably, most likely impossible to balance around both.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

3 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

You're aware this is the PvP forum?

FB? In PvP? What are you talking about? Alacrity-share Willbender? In PvP?!

PvP isn't just about ranked, its about unranked too, in which you encounter a wide variety of builds especially by people playtesting. Unranked has always been kind of a dumping grounds for this kind of gameplay since unlike WvW it doesn't require levelling or gearing up your characters.

 

But I was talking about the state of Guardian in all game modes collectively, anyway. Its always been the main go-to class if you want to do something--anything really--and that's not likely to change.

 

Except stealth I guess? Oh, wait..

Edited December 13, 2021 by Hannelore.8153

[Khalisto.5780]

i kinda agree on guardian's stab uptime, but from what I've seen necros profits the most of this interaction, you can place any other class there hugging the supp guardian, none of them will survive half the time necros do, and also they won't fully cover the nodes with aoe, having crazy crowd control and if  the guardian goes down a really good chance of succesfully ressing the guardian.

 

My take on  this they  have to start shaving off life force generation from staff, rework ress trait to do something else and increase spectral ring cd by 20%

 

[Genesis.5169]

Just make unblockable's and execution skills go through shroud. This increases the level of play and only affects necros while not directly nerfing necro abilities.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Genesis.5169

[Vancho.8750]

Well there isn't another teamfight damage dealer in the game except necro and there isn't any other good supports so guardian is the only one left, tempest and spellbreaker got the shaft , there isn't any other comparable teamfight combo cause most got nerfed, since people complain allot for the wrong things. So here we are people complaining about the only teamfight specs in the game left only because their core design is about that and arenanet's unwillingness to create several other combo options. Close mid is the simplest strategy is by far the best for queues so you pick teamfights, and you pick the best teamfighters.

My personal opinion is that roamer mains, should shut the kitten up about balancing , currently there isn't any sidenoders left since the game has been balanced around rotations, now the teamfight is not OK. Guess what most people are kitten at rotations , which adds even more difficulty to the game, which is more barrier to entry and there is less people coming in to play.
I get it rotations are artsy fartsy, big strats, battle of the minds, but that is the thing random guy 3931 picked a thief or mesmer in the queue and is running around being useless when he could have picked up necro and at least be useful as a punching bag in his noobness.   

[Stand The Wall.6987]

its the low damage and everyone knows it. no more nerfs until anet fulfills their promise of balance patches ironing things out. which is never apparently, so stuck in hell we are.

[Noz.4650]

The problem is that it takes too long to down targets so rez utilities have almost 100% uptime in teamfights. Adding damage back to some CCs would be a start, especially on warrior for example who was the most affected by the change.

[Ragnar.4257]

5 hours ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

PvP isn't just about ranked, its about unranked too, in which you encounter a wide variety of builds especially by people playtesting. Unranked has always been kind of a dumping grounds for this kind of gameplay since unlike WvW it doesn't require levelling or gearing up your characters.

 

But I was talking about the state of Guardian in all game modes collectively, anyway. Its always been the main go-to class if you want to do something--anything really--and that's not likely to change.

 

Except stealth I guess? Oh, wait..

FB doesn't suddenly become good in unranked. It has the same abilities in both ranked and unranked. So, again, what are you talking about? In both ranked and unranked it's just awful, but you're trying to sell it as some "all-the-boons-godmode-support". What. Are. You. Talking. About. ?.

If your bar for "overpowered" is set at "it can work against beginners playing meme builds in unranked", then basically everything in the game is overpowered.

"Staff Ele is OP. Does it work in ranked? No. Does it work in tournaments? No. But this one time in unranked I totally nuked 3 bowbear-ranger keyboard-turners who were clearly playing their first game. Overpowered." /facepalm

Edited December 13, 2021 by Ragnar.4257

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

19 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

FB doesn't suddenly become good in unranked. It has the same abilities in both ranked and unranked. So, again, what are you talking about? In both ranked and unranked it's just awful, but you're trying to sell it as some "all-the-boons-godmode-support". What. Are. You. Talking. About. ?.

If your bar for "overpowered" is set at "it can work against beginners playing meme builds in unranked", then basically everything in the game is overpowered.

"Staff Ele is OP. Does it work in ranked? No. Does it work in tournaments? No. But this one time in unranked I totally nuked 3 bowbear-ranger keyboard-turners who were clearly playing their first game. Overpowered." /facepalm

You should touch some grass outside of PvP lobby sometimes.
If you think that "what is used in rankeds" dictates if something is broken or not, then you're either newbie or just blind player.
Firebrand is broken because of it's design, that's just core 2.0, just because it's not abused because of low numbers, it doesn't make it "less broken" in the slightest and far too much people think in that categories like you, which is wrong.
The same goes for Mirage, how many of them you see in rankeds? Close to none, but does that make them any less broken? No, it doesn't in the slightest.
Also trying to somehow justify your rant by bringing one of the most overnerfed weapon in the game is actually amazing. Staff ele is not "overpowered" from the design level, it's "broken" of the numbers and nerfs.
You look at things via "numerical values" only and ignore completely the design itself, which is like trying to say that "cheaters are fine, because how many of them are winning mats?"

[Ragnar.4257]

4 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

You should touch some grass outside of PvP lobby sometimes.
If you think that "what is used in rankeds" dictates if something is broken or not, then you're either newbie or just blind player.
Firebrand is broken because of it's design, that's just core 2.0, just because it's not abused because of low numbers, it doesn't make it "less broken" in the slightest and far too much people think in that categories like you, which is wrong.
The same goes for Mirage, how many of them you see in rankeds? Close to none, but does that make them any less broken? No, it doesn't in the slightest.
Also trying to somehow justify your rant by bringing one of the most overnerfed weapon in the game is actually amazing. Staff ele is not "overpowered" from the design level, it's "broken" of the numbers and nerfs.
You look at things via "numerical values" only and ignore completely the design itself, which is like trying to say that "cheaters are fine, because how many of them are winning mats?"

Oh, yes, you're quite right, my bad, Firebrand is obviously overpowered in PvP. That's why everyone stopped playing it 2 years ago and haven't touched it since.

These forums.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Ragnar.4257

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

Necro is the problem because they are unmatched in teamfights with a support, while still having very good node control in 1v1s and favorable 2v2 matchups. Take support guard out of the picture and you still have tempest and scourge to take its place. Take necro out of the picture and you lose the majority of a teams aoe, corrupts, & condi pressure, and there isnt any other class that can bring all that on one build.

Rezzing is definitely an issue but it isnt because of guard.

[Crab Fear.1624]

14 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

What if the problem were guardians being able to keep alive a corpse indefinitely and spitting stab for days ? 3 stacks on f3, then 5 stacks on shout, then renewed focus, then some another f3, all in all is some 14s of unstunnable juggernaut with added prot\aegis\cleanse and all that healing ticking on the background, and if the necro happens to die you just need to signet his kitten off trouble and start the circle all over again

Because killing a necro may be hard but is doable. Killing an unstunnable necromancer is another thing. Maybe we should look at guardian's ability to stall every single teamfight?

If they nerf guardian, won't it just actually be an underhanded buff to necro?

Seems to me it will just make necros even more prominent in games.

No thanks.

Necromancers are still stronger than the curve at the moment, even without direct support.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Crab Fear.1624