Outnumbered buff = I leave the map

[Shiyo.3578]

The incentive to stay in outnumbered situations and get zerged over and over again was completely removed. Why was this changed in the first place? It worked exactly as intended from my own experiences.

Please add pips back to outnumbered.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Shiyo.3578

[ollbirtan.2915]

I couldn't agree more. The "new" pip system promotes mindless zerging even more and is absolutely oppressive to solo roamers / defenders etc.  

[Xenesis.6389]

So you play for rewards and not to help your community?

When outnumbered attracted enough allies to come onto the map (you know, it's actual intention), or enemies left the map, to take away outnumbered, did you complain about it to them too?

Edited December 14, 2021 by Xenesis.6389

[Gorem.8104]

5 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

So you play for rewards and not to help your community?

When outnumbered attracted enough allies to come onto the map (you know, it's actual intention), or enemies left the map, to take away outnumbered, did you complain about it to them too?

Would you play wvw if it gave nothing? Lets see how long it lasts before it dies entirely cept by these "hardcore" wvw players who want to be the only ones playing the game mode. I just don't understand this concept that things that benefit everyone are not good enough for you, the loudest complainers. You complain so much. 

 

Outnumbered pips should have never been removed, they should have just added pips on top. They made the slowest worst reward system in the game take longer on perm outnumbered maps. There is no incentive anymore to play on outnumbered maps like there used to be. It makes total sense to bring it back, in fact most of those wvw changes they did in the patch needs to be reversed. Why anyone would be for something that makes the game objectively worse for everyone is amazing. Unless a shill account? a dev account? 

[Zikory.6871]

I agree, WXP bonus should be 50-100%. Not a measly 25%. 

[Xenesis.6389]

2 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

Would you play wvw if it gave nothing? Lets see how long it lasts before it dies entirely cept by these "hardcore" wvw players who want to be the only ones playing the game mode. I just don't understand this concept that things that benefit everyone are not good enough for you, the loudest complainers. You complain so much. 

 

Outnumbered pips should have never been removed, they should have just added pips on top. They made the slowest worst reward system in the game take longer on perm outnumbered maps. There is no incentive anymore to play on outnumbered maps like there used to be. It makes total sense to bring it back, in fact most of those wvw changes they did in the patch needs to be reversed. Why anyone would be for something that makes the game objectively worse for everyone is amazing.

 

Unless a shill account? a dev account? 

Well I've played since the beta.. soooo.... I know the reward struggles of wvw.... and yet continued to play wvw 99% of the 9k hours I've spent in gw2. I don't chase rewards, I chase good times. Meanwhile players like you knowingly chase rewards in the worse game mode for it, then come to constantly complain about it, when you could just go pve if rewards is all you're looking for. But we all know why you all are you in wvw, for specific rewards, because it's the easiest to obtain, you just don't want to spend any time on it. You want to obtain rewards just as fast or even faster than veterans who spent years of play time building their pip ranks.

Are you seriously accusing me of being a shill or dev account?.........

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!111!!!!11!!!

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!

Holy cow. Bet you don't even know I was one of those asking for improved rewards for years, and for a vendor for ascended gear even before skirmish system rewards were in place.

I'm even more glad they removed repair participation and outnumbered pips, the outnumbered pips only rewarded those handful of people that sat in empty maps, it affected you, not me, so not everyone, the new pips rewards everyone including those sitting in empty maps all the time.

 

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by Xenesis.6389

[Dawdler.8521]

Yes this is so much worse than outnumbered = I dont want any of you on my map to begin with because you're taking away my buff.

 

[kash.9213]

1 hour ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Well I've played since the beta.. soooo.... I know the reward struggles of wvw.... and yet continued to play wvw 99% of the 9k hours I've spent in gw2. I don't chase rewards, I chase good times. Meanwhile players like you knowingly chase rewards in the worse game mode for it, then come to constantly complain about it, when you could just go pve if rewards is all you're looking for. But we all know why you all are you in wvw, for specific rewards, because it's the easiest to obtain, you just don't to spend any time on it. You want to obtain rewards just as fast or even faster than veterans who spent years of play time building their pip ranks.

Are you seriously accusing me of being a shill or dev account?.........

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!111!!!!11!!!

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!

Holy cow. Bet you don't even know I was one of those asking for improved rewards for years, and for a vendor for ascended gear even before skirmish system rewards were in place.

I'm even more glad they removed repair participation and outnumbered pips, the outnumbered pips only rewarded those handful of people that sat in empty maps, it affected you, not me, so not everyone, the new pips rewards everyone including those sitting in empty maps all the time.

 

 

That was very dramatic and full of assumptions, but who doesn't enjoy a good freakout?

You're playing for rewards or you wouldn't have anything. Why go so hard and rage about being one way or the other? Most people play WvW because it's their kind of fun while they fill their inventory. Fix the population problem for people before raging at them about wanting rewards. 

[Strider Pj.2193]

1 hour ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Well I've played since the beta.. soooo.... I know the reward struggles of wvw.... and yet continued to play wvw 99% of the 9k hours I've spent in gw2. I don't chase rewards, I chase good times. Meanwhile players like you knowingly chase rewards in the worse game mode for it, then come to constantly complain about it, when you could just go pve if rewards is all you're looking for. But we all know why you all are you in wvw, for specific rewards, because it's the easiest to obtain, you just don't to spend any time on it. You want to obtain rewards just as fast or even faster than veterans who spent years of play time building their pip ranks.

Are you seriously accusing me of being a shill or dev account?.........

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!111!!!!11!!!

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!

Holy cow. Bet you don't even know I was one of those asking for improved rewards for years, and for a vendor for ascended gear even before skirmish system rewards were in place.

I'm even more glad they removed repair participation and outnumbered pips, the outnumbered pips only rewarded those handful of people that sat in empty maps, it affected you, not me, so not everyone, the new pips rewards everyone including those sitting in empty maps all the time.

 

 

The ‘thanks’ was from me.  Very apt and descriptive summary.  I couldn’t agree more with what you stated Xen.  (Not that you need MY approval lol)

[Zyreva.1078]

2 hours ago, ollbirtan.2915 said:

I couldn't agree more. The "new" pip system promotes mindless zerging even more and is absolutely oppressive to solo roamers / defenders etc.  

The changes to the pip system have absolutely zero impact on solo roaming and very little impact on defending. What keeps promoting mindless zerging is the "we want more rewards for as little effort as possible" mind set that's the main driving force behind most complaints like yours.

2 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

Would you play wvw if it gave nothing?

Many did and players didn't only gain nothing back then. Playing WvW often was a gold loss and yet the game mode was more poular than now.

More/easier rewards do not make WvW neccessarily better.

Outnumbered pips were bad, because they were disencouraging players to call for reinforcements on an outnumbered map and therefore did the opposite of what the buff is supposed to do - promote balance. Players, who chased the outnumbered buff also were never looking for the challenge of outnumbered fights (as you can find them on any map) and typically did as little as possible to maintain participation, which is not something that warrants additional rewards.

The changes to the pip system benefit everyone except those who were chasing "outnumbered" solely for the purpose of maximising pip gain with minimal effort, and that type of gameplay isn't benefitial for the game mode. If someone leaves a map now, just because said buffs pops up, it means they never wanted to play on an outnumbered map to begin with (not that the buff is actually representative of the actual map state - i've seen my server pvdoor entire "outnumbered" maps while the enemy zergs kept running at each other in some corner ...) and should be glad, they aren't "forced" to do so anymore.

Edited December 14, 2021 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[ollbirtan.2915]

7 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

The changes to the pip system have absolutely zero impact on solo roaming and very little impact on defending. What keeps promoting mindless zerging is the "we want more rewards for as little effort as possible" mind set that's the main driving force behind most complaints like yours.

Many did and players didn't only gain nothing back then. Playing WvW often was a gold loss and yet the game mode was more poular than now.

More/easier rewards do not make WvW neccessarily better.

Outnumbered pips were bad, because they were disencouraging players to call for reinforcements on an outnumbered map and therefore did the opposite of what the buff is supposed to do - promote balance. Players, who chased the outnumbered buff also were never looking for the challenge of outnumbered fights (as you can find them on any map) and typically did as little as possible to maintain participation, which is not something that warrants additional rewards.

The changes to the pip system benefit everyone except those who were chasing "outnumbered" solely for the purpose of maximising pip gain with minimal effort, and that type of gameplay isn't benefitial for the game mode. If someone leaves a map now, just because said buffs pops up, it means they never wanted to play on an outnumbered map to begin with (not that the buff is actually representative of the actual map state - i've seen my server pvdoor entire "outnumbered" maps while the enemy zergs kept running at each other in some corner ...) and should be glad, they aren't "forced" to do so anymore.

You totally misread me - I don't play for the pips and rewards - I've got all the legi sets/trinkets etc. Old system made sure that I could always play in outnumbered maps as a roamer. If a friendly zerg appeared - i would immediately change maps. Now - the new system doesn't give incentive to THOSE people you are talking about --- those trebbing semi-afk , or repairing structures. What this means? They are all part of the mindless zerg now --- and also means that all outnumbered maps are 10v1 most of the time. No more 1v1 1v3  --- Zerg mentality is way stronger now after the update. 

[Shining One.1635]

While the pip change has positively affected me personally, I wonder about the overall effect. I play both PvE and WvW and I find myself more incentivized to play WvW during my server's strong times and to play PvE during the weak times. Previously, it was the opposite.

 

Before Pip Change

Server's Strong Times: 11 Pips per Tick (First Place)

Server's Weak Times: 14 Pips per Tick  (Third Place + Outnumbered)

 

After Pip Change

Server's Strong Times: 13 Pips per Tick (First Place)

Server's Weak Times: 11 Pips per Tick (Third Place)

 

There should be some incentive for players to play during weaker time periods. After all, they play a role in creating content for the opposing servers.

[ArchonWing.9480]

Outnumbered has always been a bandaid mechanic; it was never meant to be a mainstay of gameplay.

But if you're seriously asking WvW people if they would play for poor rewards, that's kinda just asking to get dunked on, lol.

I for one have always asked for stuff like faster reward tracks and more vendor items, things that would benefit people without having to rely on situational crap like this.

[Zan.7064]

Outnumbered means time to ping chat to let tags know, watch for baddies watch garri bay and hills.  

[Shroud.2307]

Quote

Outnumbered buff = I leave map

And nothing of importance was lost.

Edited December 15, 2021 by Shroud.2307

[TheGrimm.5624]

Seeing the same as the OP the outnumbered is now making the issue worse and driving more people off maps and that is leaving even less people to try and handle more. The original goal was to encourage more people to still try their luck though they are against the odds. Also starting to see it show up on the pugmanders comments trying to pull more people from outnumbered maps to roll where they are not. Again there was no reason that that both the outnumbered system and the boost to aid the newer players couldn't have worked in tandem. 

[Cuks.8241]

The people that played on outnumbered maps for pips probably didn't contribute much anyway. People also didn't announce in /team cuz they wanted to keep the buff which was not good overall.

When outnumbered pops out and it's on map you actually have valuable assets it's time to scout and announce because you will probably start losing keeps soon. Players that played for pips on outnumbered or now just leave the map are useless in any case and shouldn't be catered to.

[Cuks.8241]

23 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

Would you play wvw if it gave nothing? Lets see how long it lasts before it dies entirely cept by these "hardcore" wvw players who want to be the only ones playing the game mode. I just don't understand this concept that things that benefit everyone are not good enough for you, the loudest complainers. You complain so much. 

I would actually be fine if there were no rewards. I mean rewards are fine and all but WvW would be often more fun without. Let me give an example from yesterday.

We had a 50 man organised discord enemy group yesterday on HBL. We had about 35 people on discord on the map and maybe 10 people in queue and one small guild also trying to get in. We needed those people to put up a good fight. There were at least 15 our players just standing around doing nothing but tagging enemies from time time and taking spots on the map from people that wanted to play.. Frustrating. If they were actually playing, roaming, taking camps, whatever, I'm completely fine with that. But they did nothing, half afk and causing extra queue.

Edited December 15, 2021 by Cuks.8241

[TheGrimm.5624]

2 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said:

The people that played on outnumbered maps for pips probably didn't contribute much anyway. People also didn't announce in /team cuz they wanted to keep the buff which was not good overall.

When outnumbered pops out and it's on map you actually have valuable assets it's time to scout and announce because you will probably start losing keeps soon. Players that played for pips on outnumbered or now just leave the map are useless in any case and shouldn't be catered to.

 

I can't speak to all servers, just the one I am on and the ones we have been linked to. People call out outnumbered all the time about being outnumbered. Outside of any jokes I have never seen any call out another that made the shoutout about we don't want more people here oh noes our rewards. It's used exactly as the warning that you might need help on a given map. Which a common reply I have seen is keep us informed if they go after something major and we will come back aka hold with what you have. 

 

We need to get over this fear of pip hunters. If there were really that many then the people that were outnumbered wouldn't be via the fact people would so flood the map with bodies that the issue would go away on its own. The original intent was to give people more of a reason to fight it out even if it means they might lose. The extra pips were there to show some progression since the rest of the buff would mean 0 progression if you were not successful in your fight while outnumbered. Some people will still fight without that feel of progression, others will not. The point is that there is a negative impact and some of us are seeing it decreasing numbers and that's a concern. We need to be looking for ways to increase player base, not discourage it.

 

As others stated, they could have also just reduced the extra pips. The odds are good there will still be coverage wars after Alliances are launched so assuming that outnumbered will just go away is a bit much.  And before someone goes to the its just about the loot, I already have all the leggy gear for all three weight classes. Personally I like to fight outnumbered since its harder and there are more targets. Seeing the extra pips pop up was just fun and less of of an impact when fighting with less numbers. It's also a blast when your smaller side take out targets of the side with more. But I do understand not everyone is going to see it in the same way and it does seem to be impacting people just going for it anyway even if the odds are against them. 

[Shining One.1635]

8 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said:

We had a 50 man organised discord enemy group yesterday on HBL. We had about 35 people on discord on the map and maybe 10 people in queue and one small guild also trying to get in. We needed those people to put up a good fight. There were at least 15 our players just standing around doing nothing but tagging enemies from time time and taking spots on the map from people that wanted to play.. Frustrating. If they were actually playing, roaming, taking camps, whatever, I'm completely fine with that. But they did nothing, half afk and causing extra queue.

If only those 15 semi-AFK pip farmers had some sort of incentive to play on a sparsely populated map rather than a queued one.

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, Shining One.1635 said:

If only those 15 semi-AFK pip farmers had some sort of incentive to play on a sparsely populated map rather than a queued one.

Yes because giving semi afk pip farmers more pips for doing absolutely nothing is the way to get them engaged in the game.

[Shining One.1635]

1 minute ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Yes because giving semi afk pip farmers more pips for doing absolutely nothing is the way to get them engaged in the game.

They're not going to be engaged any way. Do you want them unengaged in a queued map or do you want them unengaged in a sparsely populated map?

[Dawdler.8521]

26 minutes ago, Shining One.1635 said:

They're not going to be engaged any way. Do you want them unengaged in a queued map or do you want them unengaged in a sparsely populated map?

As you say they're not going to be engaged anyway. So whats the argument for either? Correct answer is there is none. So Anet choose to give everyone more pips for just playing WvW period. And there you go.

Edited December 16, 2021 by Dawdler.8521

[Shining One.1635]

17 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

As you say they're not going to be engaged anyway. So whats the argument for either? Correct answer is there is none.

Personally, I'd prefer they occupy space on sparsely populated maps. When a keep needs defending, I want there to be population space for engaged players to come save it.

[rrusse.7058]

We also need to keep in mind the fact that WvW is currently being iterated on and that the changes to Outnumbered is leftovers of an old system made for the purpose of, what?

To draw players to a specific map to engage in fights and make them more even. Outnumbered as a concept will be likely be either done away with, or made into something else due to the granularity of the Alliance System once it is out of beta.

I see a lot of various opinions on rewards and motivations for playing as well. Perhaps even a little gatekeeping? Josh Davis has said he wants rewards to be reworked as well and that WvW is not rewarding enough. He and the rest of the WvW team want to rectify that.

It doesn't really matter why someone is playing WvW, only that we want more people in it, participating and playing. Whether you're a new player, someone in it for a particular item or a seasoned veteran we should be focused on getting more bodies in there and fighting. It's a cornerstone game mode so let's all act like it!