Oh Gods! "Blade Runner" Kaineng City is real :(

[AgentMoore.9453]

6 hours ago, witcher.3197 said:

People keep saying asura use magitech but honestly, where's the "magi" part?

The 'magi' part is mostly in the power source. Instead of using electricity or chemical reactions to power their stuff, it's runes and crystals and complex magical fields attuned to specific frequencies (at least for the gates). These things are housed/framed in mechanical parts, but they don't use conventional science in order to function (which is why so much of their explanations are babble). It's kind of like if you turned on your lights and instead of electricity flowing through the wires, it was lightning-based magic instead. They come across similarly, but that's the distinction. Magic that imitates tech behavior as opposed to tech operating around natural materials/limitations.

In this regard, Jade tech feels like 'magitech, but green' (machines/devices powered by magical rocks). My issues with it mostly stem from not knowing how that kind of leap got made in Cantha, but also with its aesthetics and widespread nature compared to magitech, which doesn't seem to have spread in quite the same way throughout Central Tyria despite having the same amount (or more) of time with which to do so. Cantha is shaping up to be a high tech society instead of a mostly basic society with some magitech in it. Guess we'll know for sure when we get over there.

Edited January 5, 2022 by AgentMoore.9453
Added an extra 'the' by error, oh noooooo

[witcher.3197]

2 hours ago, Sigmoid.7082 said:

 

 

By these standards you can say your logic is also flawless . Since its comes across very much "old good, new bad".

 

I also think that's the point. You're not here for Cantha either. You're here for Cantha as you remember it and wanted it to evolve.  Anet doesn't not care about world building because they aren't adhering to what you think they should be doing. 

Places can evolve without losing their essence. For example I think Anet did a great job with places like Ebonhawke and Elona, they both feel new but familiar. I see nothing Canthan in Cantha, just some sci-fi fever dream of some dev who likes China.

Oh yes Anet cares so much about worldbuilding the head of narrative design didn't even bother looking up the lore by his own admission.. 

All you can do is make personal attacks and assumptions about me because that's all you have to defend Anet's terrible decisions with.

[witcher.3197]

2 hours ago, AgentMoore.9453 said:

The 'magi' part is mostly in the power source

That's my problem with it. You can say "ooh the source is magic" but that's a weak excuse. It's the application that matters, and how the tech is presented. Asura magitech in GW2 is virtually indistinguishable from space age tech, and we barely ever see or interact with the supposedly magical source. Asura themselves barely ever do magical stuff on their own. I mean cmon they have reactor explosions and radiation poisoning all over their zones, nothing magical about that.

I could tell you my phone works with magic, that makes it about as magical as asura tech in GW2.

[Sobx.1758]

4 hours ago, witcher.3197 said:

So every change is good because "old bad, new good"

Flawless logic dude

If you want cyberpunk, launch Cyberpunk 2077. I'm here for Cantha, you're not.

No, not every change is good, but this one is, while it's rather clear the main complaint for some people here is quite literally "it's not what gw1 was!".

I'm here for Cantha that's not trapped in the past, if I'll want gw1 Cantha... I'll launch gw1. Meanwhile, I can't wait to go through the new Cantha, so I'm k, thanks. 🤷‍♂️

Edited January 5, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Sigmoid.7082]

26 minutes ago, witcher.3197 said:

 

All you can do is make personal attacks and assumptions about me because that's all you have to defend Anet's terrible decisions with.

 

I don't think I have made any assumptions since I'm keying off your posts in this thread and your, fairly ironic, stance and rebottles of peoples rejection of your ideas and notions. If keying off things you have said and using the same rhetoric in opposition constitutes a personal attack means go ahead and think so. But understand this, since its something you are missing completely; Disagreeing with you, or opinion, and your position on the matter is not defending Anet. Don't conflate the two.

 

I can almost assure you that every single person in this thread who disagrees with you has at some point or another disagreed with something Anet has done and has been vocal about it. 

 

I'm not, and I'm sure many other are not,  some Anet apologists. I just disagree with your notion, reasoning, dismissal and stance on the matter. 

 

Its one thing to voice a complaint, its another to completely high horse yourself and claim some position of correctness or moral / world building high ground.  The hubris to claim others aren't here for Cantha and that you are because you have some preconceived notion of exactly how things should be and turn out, and Anet is ruining everything because they aren't adhering to what you personally think they should be doing is nothing short of ridiculous.  People have different visions and interpretations. Its a tad arrogant to, potentially unknowingly, claim yours is the most correct and that those who don't agree are [insert something here that allows me to dismiss this and continue on with my tirade]. 

 

 

Edited January 5, 2022 by Sigmoid.7082

[witcher.3197]

29 minutes ago, Sigmoid.7082 said:

I don't think I have made any assumptions since I'm keying off your posts in this thread and your, fairly ironic, stance and rebottles of peoples rejection of your ideas and notions. If keying off things you have said and using the same rhetoric in opposition constitutes a personal attack means go ahead and think so. But understand this, since its something you are missing completely; Disagreeing with you, or opinion, and your position on the matter is not defending Anet. Don't conflate the two.

 

I can almost assure you that every single person in this thread who disagrees with you has at some point or another disagreed with something Anet has done and has been vocal about it. 

 

I'm not, and I'm sure many other are not,  some Anet apologists. I just disagree with your notion, reasoning, dismissal and stance on the matter. 

 

Its one thing to voice a complaint, its another to completely high horse yourself and claim some position of correctness or moral / world building high ground.  The hubris to claim others aren't here for Cantha and that you are because you have some preconceived notion of exactly how things should be and turn out, and Anet is ruining everything because they aren't adhering to what you personally think they should be doing is nothing short of ridiculous.  People have different visions and interpretations. Its a tad arrogant to, potentially unknowingly, claim yours is the most correct and that those who don't agree are [insert something here that allows me to dismiss this and continue on with my tirade]. 

 

 

Literally everyhing you're accusing me of, others have been doing to me in this thread.

All I did at first was express why I think this is not a good way to handle Cantha. I think you need to scroll up because you are defending people here who go against your own views.

Edited January 5, 2022 by witcher.3197

[AgentMoore.9453]

1 hour ago, witcher.3197 said:

That's my problem with it. You can say "ooh the source is magic" but that's a weak excuse. It's the application that matters, and how the tech is presented. Asura magitech in GW2 is virtually indistinguishable from space age tech, and we barely ever see or interact with the supposedly magical source.

Well, then I'll ask because I'm genuinely curious: If raw/filtered/Non GMO/Gluten-free Tyrian magic being used to power tech-like devices isn't an adequate interpretation of magical technology, then what would you suggest in its place? What's the different application? If it's not powering devices, it's not tech. If it's purely science, it's not magic. How else do you combine these two to satisfy the concept?

As for rarely seeing the magical aspect of magitech, the gates are visible pools of magic and were explained to have once been powered by energy emanated from Primordus' sleeping body (until they realized this was a terrible idea and switched to different sources of Tyrian magic). The waypoint grid is based on leyline energy (as explained in HoT, since that became a huge problem) and you can see the shafts of magical power holding everything up in the air (or scattered on the ground if a point has been damaged). Asuran Golems are a good example of magic in design too, as you can see the magic-packed crystals holding them together in place of joints, wires, or conventional energy fields. They are also said to be advanced enough to be controlled remotely by a person's mind, implying a magical/spellcast bond between creator and creation. There's also allusion to a 'great golem uprising of 84' in which they broke free from their magical controls and essentially became living things for a while until inhibitors came into popular use.

I'm with you on the 'not wanting a high tech, futuristic GW2' thing, but I'm lost on the 'magitech isn't magic' thing. Please help me understand.

Edited January 5, 2022 by AgentMoore.9453
When you triple-check your post and still typo :pensive:

[witcher.3197]

41 minutes ago, AgentMoore.9453 said:

I'm with you on the 'not wanting a high tech, futuristic GW2' thing, but I'm lost on the 'magitech isn't magic' thing. Please help me understand.

It's a hard topic to discuss tbh.

The best way I could sum it up is that magitech, to me, means a less advanced civilization substituting technology with magic in creating constructs that are still somewhat simple in design. You need to use magic as an excuse to explain the leap in technology.

GW1 asura were cave dwellers drawing energy from magic crystals which were quite visible in places like Rata Sum and Central Transfer Chamber. Their only two gimmicks were asura gates and golemancy.

The Forgotten already used similar (albeit shorter distance) teleportation networks centuries ago with magic, even humans use them, and golemancy isn't that far removed from necromancy (in some missions golems use the player's energy to charge themselves). Even Orrians and Mursaat used enchanted constructs. It fits the world. Aside from these two things the asura were relatively primitive, so their inventions (that are based on more complex ideas, like robotics) are explained with magic.

Now contrast that with GW2 asura. They use reactors as an energy source, they have digital consoles, holograms, hoverbikes, megalasers, ironman suits, virtual reality (SAB), long distance communication devices, etc. They are portrayed as a properly advanced, space age civilization. The GW2 asura have a level of technology that's so advanced they don't need to rely on magic, writers could say they use none and it'd be 100% believable. Replace the word "magic" with "electricity" and you can put this into any sci-fi universe.

Cantha is trending in that direction as well.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

So, you don't think Asura should have advanced their magi-tech in 250+ years?  Since they don't have electricity, they should have named their magi-tech something else?

I guess they did in Cantha; they named it Jade Tech. 

[Poormany.4507]

5 hours ago, witcher.3197 said:

Now contrast that with GW2 asura. They use reactors as an energy source, they have digital consoles, holograms, hoverbikes, megalasers, ironman suits, virtual reality (SAB), long distance communication devices, etc. They are portrayed as a properly advanced, space age civilization. The GW2 asura have a level of technology that's so advanced they don't need to rely on magic, writers could say they use none and it'd be 100% believable. Replace the word "magic" with "electricity" and you can put this into any sci-fi universe.

 

It seemed pretty obvious the Asura would expand their technology in over 250 years. Seeing how much technology has advanced in the real world and considering they already had extremely powerful magitech in GW1 (including levitation, semi-advanced golems, and full-scale workshop factories/labs with a large degree of automation), I would be more surprised if they hadn't achieved what they did in GW2.

I would expect the same thing to have occurred in Cantha (although on a slightly lesser scale), as it seems to have. Most of the jade tech seems to be limited to New Kaineng and extracted from the Jade Sea, and there seems to be very little in Shing-Jea and the Echovald, similar to how most of the Asuran tech in GW1 was limited to Rata Sum and the Councils' directly controlled areas.

Edited January 6, 2022 by Poormany.4507

[Naxos.2503]

I'm waiting for the preview to decide. If the narrative fits, I could probably be fine with it. It's not out of the realm of possibility given the other races technological advancements.

 

I'll tell you what I want, what I really really want... A fully urban map. With urban warfare, or urban conflicts at least. It's one of those environemental designs we haven't seen much of beside Amnoon, and that was very tame. I want to see dark alleys with cuthroats. I want to see gang warfare. I want to see factions forced to mingle together despite hating eachother, and sometime failing to maintain civility. 

Edited January 6, 2022 by Naxos.2503

[witcher.3197]

5 hours ago, Poormany.4507 said:

It seemed pretty obvious the Asura would expand their technology in over 250 years. Seeing how much technology has advanced in the real world and considering they already had extremely powerful magitech in GW1 (including levitation, semi-advanced golems, and full-scale workshop factories/labs with a large degree of automation), I would be more surprised if they hadn't achieved what they did in GW2.

I would expect the same thing to have occurred in Cantha (although on a slightly lesser scale), as it seems to have. Most of the jade tech seems to be limited to New Kaineng and extracted from the Jade Sea, and there seems to be very little in Shing-Jea and the Echovald, similar to how most of the Asuran tech in GW1 was limited to Rata Sum and the Councils' directly controlled areas.

Saying "oh it was always meant to evolve like that" is wrong. No, it didn't have to turn out like this. Look up early trailers where they show Rata Sum, or any concept art including Rata Sum's loading screen, maybe even check out the asura race intro. Nowhere, NOWHERE do you see the level of technology they currently have. In fact they are shown using magic (even to power golems) and wielding staves in plenty of art, which is all but absent in GW2.

To me it seems like the original plan was to stick to magitech and be more lore friendly, but then they changed them late into development to be more sci-fi. I think that was a mistake and I hate that decision, that's all. I reserve the right to criticise design decisions I see as damaging, and the 250 year gap is an overused, terrible excuse. "Anything could have happened!" yes, and? Doesn't mean it should've. They took the asura way too far, and the Canthan tech jump not only came out of absolutely nowhere, but nothing remains of the spirit of Cantha so far.

[Tukaram.8256]

I love the look, but not thrilled to see it in Guild Wars.  I like more of a dungeons & dragons kind of game.  I did not even like GW having guns & cannons, but they do.  I think it fits just fine, I like the look, I just would rather it were in a different game ha ha 

But we will have to wait for the launch to see it in-game and see how it feels and plays.  When is launch date?  My birthday is in the 1st week of Feb and I think that would be a good present for me. 😎

[Zok.4956]

 

On 12/17/2021 at 6:41 PM, Ashantara.8731 said:

But - and sorry to repeat myself - I don't want GW2 to be turned into a futuristic Cyberpunk Game. 😢

Make a new game if you must, but stop ruining this one by mixing genres to such extent.

GW2 is not a Cyberpunk game (and my guess is: EoD will not turn GW2 into a Cyberpunk game) but GW2 already has sci-fi/cyberpunk/steampunk elements that are mixed with other elements/genres. 

We will see next month in the final product when EoD launches how they mixed the different elements/genres in EoD.

Edited January 6, 2022 by Zok.4956

[kharmin.7683]

21 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

No, not every change is good, but this one is, while it's rather clear the main complaint for some people here is quite literally "it's not what gw1 was!".

Reminds me of the loud cries for the bunny-thumper e-spec in the Ranger sub-forum and then, when it came out, all of the loud cries that it wasn't the bunny-thumper build from GW1 memories.

People really should learn to be careful what they wish for from Anet.

[witcher.3197]

On 1/5/2022 at 8:16 PM, Sobx.1758 said:

No, not every change is good, but this one is, while it's rather clear the main complaint for some people here is quite literally "it's not what gw1 was!".

Can you explain to me why is this "good"?

I don't want a carbon copy, I just want Cantha to feel like Cantha. You are really struggling to understand that.

Maybe it'd help the discussion if you could elaborate on why you think GW2 Cantha still feels like Cantha, and how is this a good, satisfying evolution of the region.

[Sobx.1758]

39 minutes ago, witcher.3197 said:

Can you explain to me why is this "good"?

It was already explained in this thread, but you won't accept it since it's not the same as gw1 and you think "progress = lazy" and whatnot. Not sure what else you expect to be said here?

39 minutes ago, witcher.3197 said:

I don't want a carbon copy, I just want Cantha to feel like Cantha. You are really struggling to understand that.

It does feel like Cantha -at least from what we've seen.

 

[witcher.3197]

10 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

It was already explained in this thread, but you won't accept it since it's not the same as gw1 and you think "progress = lazy" and whatnot. Not sure what else you expect to be said here?

It does feel like Cantha -at least from what we've seen.

 

Compelling arguements right here

"It just does, I'm right"

[Sobx.1758]

13 hours ago, witcher.3197 said:

Compelling arguements right here

"It just does, I'm right"

Go re-read the thread and stop pretending that's all it is, while dodging the fact your main complaint is "it's not gw1". Not sure what you're even trying to do right now.

 

And if you really want to clear out some empty claims, then -after you read the thread and understand it's not "it just does, I'm right", but instead more of a "it's right within the realms of gw2"- go back where you previously dropped it and first explain your empty claims quoted here https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/106150-oh-gods-blade-runner-kaineng-city-is-real/page/5/?tab=comments#comment-1539100

Edited January 7, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[witcher.3197]

14 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Go re-read the thread and stop pretending that's all it is, while dodging the fact your main complaint is "it's not gw1". Not sure what you're even trying to do right now.

 

And if you really want to clear out some empty claims, then -after you read the thread and understand it's not "it just does, I'm right", but instead more of a "it's right within the realms of gw2"- go back where you previously dropped it and first explain your empty claims quoted here https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/106150-oh-gods-blade-runner-kaineng-city-is-real/page/5/?tab=comments#comment-1539100

You still fail to make any points or counterarguements. All you do is strawman and ask questions, you make no points. And then you link back to a previous comment with 0 substance as if that was helping you. 

Let's reset this arguement because it isn't going anywhere.

I'll tell you what makes Cantha feel Canthan to me, and then you can tell me why I'm wrong and why the GW2 version of Cantha is faithful to the original and a great way to evolve the region. That fair?

• Atmosphere: dark and gritty. We don't know much about the story but the maps already signal a different vibe with their oversatured colors.
• Music: sombre. GW2 music is once again upbeat.
• Theme: high-fantasy, heavy ancestor worship, traditionalism and a big emphasis on spirits. Instead we are getting sci-fi where ritualism is vilified.
• Setting: multiple interesting, distinct cultures cultures and subcultures. Nope, homogenous culture for GW2, Factions written out of the continent introduced with GW: Factions.
• Color palette: darker colors, stormy, foggy weather being the most dominant. GW2 made it extremely bright and oversatured. Sunshine and rainbows.
• Tropes: avoiding the cliches like reliance on martial arts and jade to sell an Asian setting. Surprise, several teasers featuring kung fu, jade everywhere. Yes, GW1 had a lot of jade too, but interestingly not in the more traditional Asian inspired zones.

You keep saying I just want a 1:1 recreation of GW1 but that's a lie, I only want them to stick to similar themes. I would've loved to see the regions evolve but in satisfying ways.

Can you imagine how cool a Kurzick Divinity's Reach would look like? Or a gothic version of Jaka Itzel up in the canopy? Or a bigger Luxon Cavalon in a melting jade sea, where Cavalon is like Venice where the sructures are carved into solid jade but the streets are flooded and you have to go around on skiffs? These are just some things we could've gotten but Anet said no.

To me GW2 Cantha so far is a wasted opportunity at best and disrespectful to the source at worst. But hey, at least we're getting asura tech but green, that's exciting, right?..

Edited January 8, 2022 by witcher.3197

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

I must have played a different Factions.  Shing Jae didn't seem dark and gritty, nor stormy and foggy everywhere; definitely the Jade Sea wasn't like that.  Echovald Wilds seems somewhat dark, though.

I haven't heard all the music, but I'm quite fond of MacLaine Deimer.

Looked like there was a couple of factions fighting each other (or more) in Echovald.  Maybe I misunderstood what they showed us.  🤷‍♂️

[witcher.3197]

3 hours ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

I must have played a different Factions.  Shing Jae didn't seem dark and gritty, nor stormy and foggy everywhere;

I didn't say everywhere, obviously Cantha wasn't a grimdark hellhole. The overall theme was definitely dark and muted colors though. Even in the bright areas of Factions you won't find the saturation the GW2 zones in the previews have.

3 hours ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

Looked like there was a couple of factions fighting each other (or more) in Echovald.  Maybe I misunderstood what they showed us.  🤷‍♂️

Now you're just twisting my words and playing dumb.

Edited January 8, 2022 by witcher.3197

[Sobx.1758]

On 1/8/2022 at 1:00 PM, witcher.3197 said:

You still fail to make any points or counterarguements. All you do is strawman and ask questions, you make no points. And then you link back to a previous comment with 0 substance as if that was helping you. 

Let's reset this arguement because it isn't going anywhere.

You've dodged the qeustions where I've asked you to clarify on your empty meaningless claims and on this page you suddenly tell me I'm just asking questions while having no points or counterarguments.  The reason I've linked back to that post (which -again- you've dropped in the past) is SPECIFICALLY to point out that "making empty claims" is what YOU did.

Don't conveniently try to "reset" anything -clear out your made up claims (since at least at the moment they still look like they're made up) or clearly back out of them admitting you pulled them out of thin air instead of pretending that's not exactly what you've did there. You were just shooting blanks and trying to claim "gw2 failed, so they try to appease to gw1 crowd", except... you are clearly part of that "gw1 crowd" and you are the one disliking how EoD looks since it's not like in gw1. 🤷‍♂️ 

 

On 1/8/2022 at 5:38 PM, witcher.3197 said:

I didn't say everywhere, obviously Cantha wasn't a grimdark hellhole. The overall theme was definitely dark and muted colors though. Even in the bright areas of Factions you won't find the saturation the GW2 zones in the previews have.

And in the rest of your previous post you're attempting to comment on things like the story while you still know next to nothing about it. Same with "color palette", where you try to sum up both gw1 and gw2 with single themes and then need to clarify that "it's not all briight"/"it's not all dark" when you're called out on what you wrote being false. You saw some areas from the expansion, some were bright, you disliked bright (because gw1 jade was different shade of green, right?) and suddenly you'll pretend it's all upbeat, bright and shiny, so it's not cantha. At this point you're just bent on complaining -even about the things you don't know enough about- but if that somehow makes you happy about still buying the expansion you apparently are so disgusted by, then good luck 😄

On 1/8/2022 at 5:38 PM, witcher.3197 said:

Now you're just twisting my words and playing dumb.

He wrote "factions" with a "small f", while in the previous sentence he used "Factions". That makes me suspect in the later sentence the use of "factions" was a direct reference to your complaint saying "multiple interesting, distinct cultures cultures and subcultures. Nope, homogenous culture for GW2", so I don't see how he's somehow "twisting your words and playing dumb". So what your complaint is here? That 250 years later you're still (most probably) not playing through the exact same conflict? And that's somehow bad, unrealistic and not fitting gw2? That's the point, it is fitting gw2. Your complaint still boils down to gw2 not being gw1, even if you don't want to specifically spell it out.

Edited January 10, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[AgentMoore.9453]

10 hours ago, witcher.3197 said:

I'll tell you what makes Cantha feel Canthan to me

I've been playing through Factions to tide me over as we wait for EoD and I gotta say, I agree with your list. There are some normal zones that are just open grassy expanses or peaceful (Shing Jea), but even those are quite muted and different from what I've been seeing in the End of Dragons streams. Cantha seems to have three 'modes' as you're running around in it: Developed cities and outposts (Kaineng Center, Shing Jea), Leaky creaky sewers and slums (The rest of Kaineng, the chaos of the Jade Sea), and dark, threatening wilderness (Echovald, various go-between maps).

Taken all together, I get a very down to earth, respectfully ancient vibe from Cantha. Even the most developed areas seem right on the edge of nature and danger and doom while carrying the weight of ancestral events and people. The vibe I get from EoD is more peppy with a lot of differences that will require serious explanation in the story. Some people are thrilled about it, but I can see why others might not be. If you're going to pull the nostalgia strings in your marketing, it would probably help to keep some of the things people are nostalgic for.

[Tyncale.1629]

I have just seen Rafe Judkins butcher my favorite Fantasy bookseries The Wheel of Time with the Amazon TV adaptation so I can not be phased anymore by Kaineng all of a sudden looking like Bladerunner.  I am ok with it.  We will have to roll with the punches.