What is plaguing the meta

[Genesis.5169]

1 hour ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Yes, that's exactly what other classes do when they step on some random cleave not targetted at them, kitten die if they've invested into full offense.

No i play 5 classes none of them in full zerkers is as squishy as thief.

1 hour ago, CutesySylveon.8290 said:

You shouldn't be in a place to be hit by random cleave unless you +1 and screw up. Seeing as how you have a dodge that auto removes movement condi and gives swiftness, on top of literally being able to poof away at any time, you shouldn't be getting caught unless it's by a LB ranger or something like a DH, but you shouldn't challenge those builds anyway. 

I like how you said except for ranger and dh, but lemme add except for scourge/reaper/herald/engineer/ranger/dh. Not saying you can't win in a duel but if your occupied that random TS crit that wasn't targeted at you will very will kill you on thief.

Edited December 26, 2021 by Genesis.5169
Also if you play rev and use reveal you won the fight right there thief is gonna die or run just or run..

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

 

2 hours ago, Genesis.5169 said:

Nope this is untrue.
Thief doesn't have enough evades outside of stealth, you need to understand thief is so squishy you can accidentally die to random cleave not targeted at you. Please play the class and report back without using stealth lemme know how many duels you win and how many fights you get away from.

 

2 hours ago, Morwath.9817 said:

I see Sindrener doing fine without stealth, so its possible 🙃

 

*chef's kiss* beautiful.

 

2 hours ago, anjo.6143 said:

I watch everysingle stream from him on conquest past 3 years and he HATE play anything else than dp SA/kitten. I watch so many times he crying with sword/dagger. 

This is the point though.

There are a couple of people making arguments that go "well, high tier player X used this class on this build and did ok with it so it must be viable and fair and doesn't need any balancing efforts/have any glaring issues/make the player die inside to play". 

Then when that argument is leveled against a class they play in the same circumstance, they become terrified that you'd even suggest such a thing. 

Edited December 26, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Axl.8924]

6 hours ago, CutesySylveon.8290 said:

First off, Stealth heal is a cleanse, Signet is a cleanse, Shadowstep is a cleanse, nobody takes cleanse in stealth because they take the Deception trait, and Daredevil has a trait that cleanses on dodging an attack.

Second, I never said *Stealth* was a problem, I said Shadow Arts.

 

Also, ironically enough, most thief builds bully necro to no end.

Some of the best cleanses for condi are from stealth plus heal plus its a  disengage. Permastealth isn't a thing in SPVP usually because you have to sacrifice DPS to keep permastealth and its not all too helpful.Permastealth is more of a WVW thing where roaming and disengaging is really useful, and becomes very op there for that reason.

Edited December 26, 2021 by Axl.8924

[Myror.7521]

@anjo.6143 The only reason why dpSA is played over the  not so mutch stealth spam variant is simply cause SA deal the same amount of damage while also give some amount of stealth and condi cleanses.

 

so all in all it Sees more play cause its easier to play plus been same as effective as all other variants

[shion.2084]

The most common pain for me is necro’s.  But it isn’t really lich which my scrapper can sort of run the clock out on…. It’s the fricken chains of fear and condi AOE spam.  Basically makes points in contestable and in a team fight those fear spams just take away all agency while you get thumped, assuming it doesn’t just kill you on its own.

 

the lich is super powerful, but at least I have control of my own guy.

 

against a very good thief I just get the crap interrupted out of me, and It can disengage and try over and over again.  I think we’ll played thieves are just about the worst thing to fight.

 

Rangers with the condi build, invis, and that block are a pain… but preferred to a really good thief or a condi necro.

 

a very good warrior seems to have infinite kite, and the ability to break through my blocks and cause stun.  Basically unkillable 1v1 when good, but I can hold point against one.

 

ele’s constant interrupt is a pain, combined with their ability to Nike you when you are stunned.  A defensive one is very hard to pin down.

 

I like fighting holos with my scrapper.

 

I’m fine against revs.  
 

I don’t mind guards because most rely on the same lame trick and I can counter it with my build (dispise getting pulled into traps and walled in so you can’t leave…. But usually can out play that.

 

A good Mesmer will just ware me out with condi, but not enough of those to worry about

[anjo.6143]

30 minutes ago, Pati.2438 said:

@anjo.6143 The only reason why dpSA is played over the  not so mutch stealth spam variant is simply cause SA deal the same amount of damage while also give some amount of stealth and condi cleanses.

 

so all in all it Sees more play cause its easier to play plus been same as effective as all other variants

Not easy at all, 95% thieves on pvp are terrible. But it is the only way to be playable, the rest is garbo and nobody wants go in a match and stay perma dead with 0 killing

[Genesis.5169]

You guys talking like if you dont run SA you dont have access to stealth...

[Axl.8924]

1 hour ago, Genesis.5169 said:

You guys talking like if you dont run SA you dont have access to stealth...

Stealth is a thing but permastealth is more useful in WVW than SPVP, as its more of a time waster in spvp to have a lot of stealth and   its better off having more dps to actually kill people instead. You don't need a huge amount of stealth to win a battle as the ability for short duration stealth from blinds for instance is enough to reposition and run away when you cannot win a fight and need to get away. Permastealth thing is  more of a problem in WVW because the thief can keep disengaging infinitely and reingaging there making it very problematic to win, and then: What do you do? Its better in pvp to  +1 people and it seems to end fights and gather points fast instead of infinitely running away as the more time wasted more points your enemy is closer to obtaining victory.

Edited December 26, 2021 by Axl.8924

[Gamble.4580]

Only nurfs on necro I would do is 300sec lich. And terror trait for fear. and take unblockable off staff skills but add something small to add as lf gain ain't worth it and necros would take swiftness trait. So it will weaken necros in 5v5 alittle but still keep then playable for map control. As necro is a gate class that keeps allot at bay from being op. Imagine how op ele rev thf and DH will be if they gutted necro.

Edited December 27, 2021 by Gamble.4580

[CutesySylveon.8290]

20 hours ago, Genesis.5169 said:

No i play 5 classes none of them in full zerkers is as squishy as thief.

I like how you said except for ranger and dh, but lemme add except for scourge/reaper/herald/engineer/ranger/dh. Not saying you can't win in a duel but if your occupied that random TS crit that wasn't targeted at you will very will kill you on thief.

...thief beats most necro builds, what are you on about? Ranger and DH are pretty hard counters but again, you're not supposed to brawl with them. Rev revealing you isn't an instant death, you have more mobility than it; again, shouldn't be brawling anyway. 

[Morwath.9817]

3 minutes ago, CutesySylveon.8290 said:

...thief beats most necro builds, what are you on about? Ranger and DH are pretty hard counters but again, you're not supposed to brawl with them. Rev revealing you isn't an instant death, you have more mobility than it; again, shouldn't be brawling anyway. 

Thief is a hard counter to Revenant, according to Boyce.

[Genesis.5169]

16 minutes ago, CutesySylveon.8290 said:

...thief beats most necro builds, what are you on about? Ranger and DH are pretty hard counters but again, you're not supposed to brawl with them. Rev revealing you isn't an instant death, you have more mobility than it; again, shouldn't be brawling anyway. 

I do not play a thief not looking to duel and run away from half the match ups in the game, also your missing the point of me saying accidentally cleaved. On a side node, why YOU say thief should be running away from fights because YOU want to do that do not project YOUR views on how a thief should approach 1v1's because the way YOU play is not the way I do.

I do not spend half of my game running away from fights to +1 for retards who do not rotate i spend half my game dueling at far and doing 1v2's and 2v2s i say away from larger 3v3+ team fights and generally allow people to duel because my feet are fast and i should be doing something like capping or decapping something then trying to hold some one hand. Running around in pairs is a great way to play if you have no self autonomy or have low movement speed i've played some of the best players and the meta they have created and this myth of the +1 legend is absolute dogshit but its so deep seeded i can't be bothered to fight against it. P1-2+ games are just a bunch of idiots who don't know how to fight who run away to outnumber and thats it.

Some of these amazing top players are the most horrible duelers hence is why they live by those +1s i guess people love to emulate.

Edited December 27, 2021 by Genesis.5169
Grammar

[CutesySylveon.8290]

17 hours ago, Axl.8924 said:

Some of the best cleanses for condi are from stealth plus heal plus its a  disengage. Permastealth isn't a thing in SPVP usually because you have to sacrifice DPS to keep permastealth and its not all too helpful.Permastealth is more of a WVW thing where roaming and disengaging is really useful, and becomes very op there for that reason.

The cleanse doesn't come from stealth itself unless you trait for it and people don't run that trait, they run Deception cooldowns.  I never said anything about permastealth or really stealth in general, I said **Shadow Arts**. The stealth heal cleanses regardless of if you stealth or not. 

[CutesySylveon.8290]

6 minutes ago, Morwath.9817 said:

Thief is a hard counter to Revenant, according to Boyce.

I know it used to be way back in the day with the super busted Essence Sap, but I feel it's less so now. I do believe a good thief should pretty much shut down a rev but it's not a fight you should usually take anyway imo. 

[Genesis.5169]

2 minutes ago, CutesySylveon.8290 said:

I know it used to be way back in the day with the super busted Essence Sap, but I feel it's less so now. I do believe a good thief should pretty much shut down a rev but it's not a fight you should usually take anyway imo. 

Any class that can reveal reliably beats thief and rev has two. I don't know why your saying this but stop please.

[CutesySylveon.8290]

5 minutes ago, Genesis.5169 said:

I do not play a thief not looking to duel and run away from half the match ups in the game, also your missing the point of me saying accidentally cleaved. On a side node, why YOU say thief should be running away from fights because YOU want to do that do not project YOUR views on how a thief should approach 1v1's because the way YOU play is not the way I do.

I do not spend half of my game running away from fights to +1 for retards who do not rotate i spend half my game dueling at far and doing 1v2's and 2v2s i say away from larger 3v3+ team fights and generally allow people to duel because my feet are fast and i should be doing something like capping or decapping something then trying to hold some one hand if some one hand. Running around in pairs is a great way to play if you have no self autonomy or have low movement speed i've played some of the best players and the meta they have created and this myth of the +1 legend is absolute dogshit but its so deep seeded i can't be bothered to fight against it. P1-2+ games are just a bunch of idiots who don't know how to fight who run away to outnumber and thats it.

It's not about refusing every single fight that isn't +1, it's that some builds either counter you, like DH and LB ranger, or aren't worth wasting time on. Know your role and your build. If you waste time trying to fight a DH then it's time you could be elsewhere doing something more productive. 

[CutesySylveon.8290]

1 minute ago, Genesis.5169 said:

Any class that can reveal reliably beats thief and rev has two. I don't know why your saying this but stop please.

Ah yes, those pesky 'On My Mark' warriors sure do counter thieves hard because stealth is literally the only defense tool they have. Except that's not the case at all and Rev only has 1 reveal. 

[Axl.8924]

25 minutes ago, Genesis.5169 said:

Any class that can reveal reliably beats thief and rev has two. I don't know why your saying this but stop please.

That depends herald for instance has a hard time with Daredevil D/P and S/D because they can reliably do hit and runs and herald has a small area aoe that has to be practically on top of people to use, and since a thief can just keep running away and resetting fight, it makes herald less a issue for a thief who can reset infinitely. That  aoe herald have that is a face that blows smoke or whatever? That seems to have a small circle and they have to be real close to land it on a enemy and it means being within range to be hit.

...thief beats most necro builds, what are you on about? Ranger and DH are pretty hard counters but again, you're not supposed to brawl with them. Rev revealing you isn't an instant death, you have more mobility than it; again, shouldn't be brawling anyway. 

I bet in the current situation a reaper might be able to brawl DH effectively. In the past i've taken on DH on reaper efficiently, since  they really don't want to be within reaper shroud distance nor does Thief. I've also played as thief and seen a reaper and as soon as i did ran for my life to avoid being murdered by the enemy reaper.

Edited December 27, 2021 by Axl.8924

[ArthurDent.9538]

41 minutes ago, CutesySylveon.8290 said:

I know it used to be way back in the day with the super busted Essence Sap, but I feel it's less so now. I do believe a good thief should pretty much shut down a rev but it's not a fight you should usually take anyway imo. 

Tbh it's more so now because you used to be able to actually down a thief if they screwed up and ate a burst. Now damage is so low they can face tank anything short of your entire damage kit then just reset and come back and try again with almost no risk. So matchup went from thief normally wins but can die to thief always wins if given enough time or goes to do something else/team comes to bail rev out. This genesis guy sounds like a really bad thief. Also I'm referring to meta power herald, renegade actually does way better into this matchup and isn't hard countered.

[Lighter.5631]

lol, thief rev and holo

necro(so is mesmer/warrior/ranger/ele) can not survive with its original state with these three classes exist. 

nerf on necro will be easy when these three classes are thrown out of the window.

any overbuff happens to any classes happens because these three classes, anet tried to nerf stealth by giving reveal for free but daredevil's mobility is the main problem, stealth didnt need nerf.

common theme around these three classes, hit and kit, easily hit bursts and  easy kits. excessive mobility and good range pressure/high teleport uptime on top of team utility.

these classes need to be shaved to the ground like they did with firebrand

Edited December 27, 2021 by Lighter.5631

[CutesySylveon.8290]

44 minutes ago, ArthurDent.9538 said:

Tbh it's more so now because you used to be able to actually down a thief if they screwed up and ate a burst. Now damage is so low they can face tank anything short of your entire damage kit then just reset and come back and try again with almost no risk. So matchup went from thief normally wins but can die to thief always wins if given enough time or goes to do something else/team comes to bail rev out. This genesis guy sounds like a really bad thief. Also I'm referring to meta power herald, renegade actually does way better into this matchup and isn't hard countered.

I can see that, I've been saying the skill floor for thief has gotten much lower with lower damage and things like Smoke Screen and Shadow Arts to help carry. A thief DEFINITELY shouldn't die from being chased unless it's a hard gank with no CDs, and d/p and shortbow are really obnoxious sets to deal with as a rev, but I could just be basing this off bad thief play. 

[Shieldbash.5304]

I think there should be a trade between Burst DPS classes and Survivability, Some classes can do both and its evident that these are the problems. A class that is extremely tanky should not have massive healing and dps to boot.

 

 

[Crab Fear.1624]

On 12/26/2021 at 7:23 AM, CutesySylveon.8290 said:

I play thief, I know what's overtuned. Shadow Arts is a carry traitline and Smoke Screen in particular is practically an invuln button to anything without resistance, ranged unblockables, or non projectile AoE, the latter not mattering anyway if you're just blinded. 

 

This idea that thief will be a free kill without a 7 second node claiming tool is only relevant to very bad thief players that need the crutch. The bar for entry with thief has been lowered significantly with the lower overall damage while the class still has incredible escape tools and panic buttons. It will be fine. 

Nope

[Sindrener.1592]

On 12/26/2021 at 5:52 PM, anjo.6143 said:

 

I watch everysingle stream from him on conquest past 3 years and he HATE play anything else than dp SA/kitten. I watch so many times he crying with sword/dagger. 

 

Show some vod he playing placement or tournament (against good ppl) without Dp meta (he played only 1 match as condi pd on Mota and thats it) 

 

 

Dont think u watched a lot then. My fav wepset is pw and will always be. But s/p is dead and will be dead. I dont like playing SA either but its the only viable spec. And yes i find sd the most boring spec of thief by far.

May you rest in peace pistol whip

but thank god specter comes soon

Also.. necro is the worst class to play vs 

 

Edited December 30, 2021 by bluri.2653

[anjo.6143]

13 hours ago, bluri.2653 said:

Dont think u watched a lot then. My fav wepset is pw and will always be. But s/p is dead and will be dead. I dont like playing SA either but its the only viable spec. And yes i find sd the most boring spec of thief by far.

May you rest in peace pistol whip

but thank god specter comes soon

Also.. necro is the worst class to play vs 

 

Im not that old on gw2 sindrener, unfourtunately I didnt get the golden age of pw, so I couldnt watch any video of those times, I wish! R.I.P.

sp dead, check.
sd meh, check.
dpsa sick off, but only thing u can do atm, check.
core necro/scourge, hate it, check.
100% agreed.

I couldnt test specter properly cause I play action cam, it had some bugs with, so I hope I can dig more when it drops officially.

Hope u can stream more often soon