GW2 has 0 inventive ways of unlocking anything at endgame?

[raffaa.7135]

So I'll post the TL;DR here first, below I will explain why I am asking this question and why I feel a bit cheated.

 

TL;DR

Assumptions:

1) GW2 has no vertical progression, rather horizontal, meaning you grind more for cosmetics, mounts, achievements, ,...

2) GW2 has 99% of these unlockables (excluding achievements) in the gem shop

3) The only way of progressing (horizontally) is by farming gold by any repetitive activity

4) There is no real value behind grinding difficult achievements for mount skin unlocks / pet unlocks / ...

 

Questions: 

- Is all of the horizontal progression summarized as, farm gold -> buy gems -> unlock skins in lootboxes

- Is there a reason this is never talked about in any of the videos I could find on youtube talking about GW2's strengths and weaknesses, I feel like this was hidden as some sort of ugly truth...?

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Full story:

 

Okay, so, about 7 years ago, I started playing GW2, back then I loved the levelling I managed to get a couple characters to level 20 and I ended up stopping with gaming alltogether for private reasons (not gw2 related). Now, many years later, I come back to play this game with some friends, I did my research before selecting the first MMO I would jump back into after all these years. (I watched a lot of mmo new and I am aware of the current state of the mmo genre sadly.)

 

I watched many youtubers talk about gw2 how the endgame horizontal progression is great and how during leveling (as I remembered as well) activities are a lot more varied than other mmo's.

Sure you have plenty heart activity that feels similar, yet you get freedom in activity of choice and the number of wacky options are sometimes adorable / hilarious.... (wash the stinky cows).

After leveling to level 40 I felt I wanted to reward such an amazing game by purchasing expansions PoF & HoT, especially since I wanted to do everything this game has to offer.

 

Now I come to a sad conclusion, as I go over the list of mount skins, I notice ALL of them say "This is only available from the Black Lion Trading Company". 

I feel cheated, many people talk about the following points:

- The immense world to discover

- It's a game where any activity is rewarded

- Horizontal progression 

- Many skins many many many skins

- The creativity of the game

 

Put all of these together and I was hoping for a game where at level cap, difficult achievements, hard as f*** raids et cetera would reward me with beautiful skins of various gear, mounts & pets.

Nothing feels more awesome than to earn a beautiful purple dragon after you defeated it in a raid that takes you weeks to clear the first time. (think back to the good ol' days for those who were there for it, old school wow comes to mind).

 

Now a clear point to make: 

I'm not calling the game kitten, I'm simply trying to figure out the following questions:

- Is all of the horizontal progression summarized as, farm gold -> buy gems -> unlock skins in lootboxes

- Is there a reason this is never talked about in any of the videos I could find on youtube talking about GW2's strengths and weaknesses, I feel like this was hidden as some sort of ugly truth...?

 

 

I am still excited for this game, I just feel slightly cheated, what am I completing the entire world map for if not a fun reward? :s

If anyone out there cares enough about this to have a nice conversation about this, I would love to find the passion back I had right before I discovered this, because I am struggling somewhat with what I am going to do once I reach endgame... break off or continue 😕

 

Best wishes to all, the GW2 community has been spectacularly friendly and nice to me I love you all, 

Happy 2022 ❤️

 

Edited January 1, 2022 by raffaa.7135
clearer punctuation

[Alcatraznc.3869]

A lot of non GW2 MMO I know has vertical progression.

Look at BDO for instance, the game has a vertical progression that asks you to resign for your job and grind forever . GW2 stands out from the crowd by having this design. So when you explain to someone that GW2 only has a level cap at 80 and your gear remains relevant after years, people will automatically assume it is because the game is dead/ has no content. Not only is this false but because Anet knows the "true content" is after you reach 80 and they dont want you and new player to feel like they have to spend their life just to reach the end game level and then spend more time to reach the end game gears so they can enjoy the end game content.

 

Imagine yourself as a new player, you want to play an MMORPG because some friends of yours play that game / want to try something new. You start the game, you see it has 120 levels. You dont know what that level means but you still decides to give it a shot. So you work your way out and after a while you reach level 100, you start seeing the light at the end of the road...And then boom, the max level is now 140. Well it is a shame but whatever you try harder. Now this time you reach level 140, you finally reached your goal and set up for your next goal and.....max level is now 160. And you still dont have a decent gear. Horizontal progression allows you to have a faster access to end game content but also doesnt forces you to grind more gear because your old one is irrelevant. 

 

It is true that a lot of skin are locked behind the gem store but these are just skin. Nothing more nothing less. Sure some are nice, some are ugly but these are not the end game content. End game content are for the most part, stuff people already know about such as T4 fractals, raids, strike mission (I guess).... Mighty Teapot actually made a vid about all, or at least, most gemstore item and ranked them based on the utility they provide so you may want to check that out if. Oh yeah I forgot about Legendaries. Legendaries are definitely one of the most useful endgame item and with EoD Anet really is encouraging people to get legendary.  

 

You can see stuff that way : I'll take the skyscale as an example, a mount a lot of player wants and is very convenient for exploring. The endgame would be getting the skyscale but the gems store makes you enjoy that skyscale more by offering multiple costume and skin for the mount. But by no means it is the endgame content by simply giving everyone the skin and the skyscale. 

[Klowdy.3126]

I'm fairly certain you're talking about rewards, while thinking about endgame. PvP is endgame. Raids are endgame. The content you do is endgame. The things you get for doing those things are rewards. Horizontal progression makes endgame content the actual endgame, not a gear treadmill.

 

If you aren't having fun with PvP, raids, strikes, or meta events (or the always popularly tedious world completion), this game might not be your home. If fashion wars is your game, and you don't like the fact that a lot of skins are obtainable through the gem store (not even for real money with the exchange), this might not be the game for you.

 

There isn't even a real complaint, since literally everything in the gem store can be bought by doing anything you want to do in the game. Are you upset that the raids can reward you the skin you want, just not from a drop?

 

You're completing world exploration for legendary weapon creation, or a ton of gold, which can be used to get anything you want from the gem store.

 

You're looking at the game through a negative lens, and seeing problems where none exist. This game give you more options that most others MMO. Some people like doing the activities at the end of leveling, and some like constantly having their progress and achievements diminished for the sake of bigger numbers, and keeping people logged in to get the exact same things they just finished getting over the past 4-6 months.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

There are many, many rewards available from playing the game, not just from the Gem Store.  You seem to be focused on Mount Skins, rather than the actual Mounts.  If you really have your eye on a particular Mount Skin, play the game, obtain your rewards/Gold and exchange said Gold for Gems in the Gem Store.  You should have a decent amount by the time you've played everything on offer before you finish Path of Fire and Living World Season 4 and acquire your 'dragon' Mount.

Welcome to Tyria and good luck!

[Vilin.8056]

Sadly, this is exactly what a casual MMO means.

Locking certain rewards behind a certain skill level only draws more complaints for a crowd who would never intend for skill based progression.

Therefore grind and money shop became the preferable route by the majority.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

16 hours ago, raffaa.7135 said:

2) GW2 has 99% of these unlockables (excluding achievements) in the gem shop

This is categorically untrue.  As stated in GW2Efficiency roughly 90% of armors are exclusive earned in game as well as the majority of weapons.  Yes things like mount skins are exclusive to the gemstore but those skins are completely useless if you haven't done the work in game to unlock those mounts, which is a significant undertaking in the cases of the griffon, rollerbeetle, and the skyscale.

14 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

Sadly, this is exactly what a casual MMO means.

Locking certain rewards behind a certain skill level only draws more complaints for a crowd who would never intend for skill based progression.

Therefore grind and money shop became the preferable route by the majority.

Just because you cheese things doesn't mean the rest of us do.

Edited January 2, 2022 by The Greyhawk.9107

[Artemis.8034]

I think its an expensive game if you want the utility and legendary stuff, or any decent looking mount. I personally see some aspects as pay for QoL. Bag slots bank slots unbreakable mining tools and salvage kits, if you want to get them you have to pay quite a bit. I cant see paying 10 bucks a bag slot for my characters apiece. I bought one and saw it was not account wide and that was that. And dont get me started on the whole loot box gamble

Edited January 2, 2022 by Artemis.8034

[Beast Sos.1457]

6 hours ago, raffaa.7135 said:

So I'll post the TL;DR here first, below I will explain why I am asking this question and why I feel a bit cheated.

 

TL;DR

Assumptions:

1) GW2 has no vertical progression, rather horizontal, meaning you grind more for cosmetics, mounts, achievements, ,...

2) GW2 has 99% of these unlockables (excluding achievements) in the gem shop

3) The only way of progressing (horizontally) is by farming gold by any repetitive activity

4) There is no real value behind grinding difficult achievements for mount skin unlocks / pet unlocks / ...

 

Questions: 

- Is all of the horizontal progression summarized as, farm gold -> buy gems -> unlock skins in lootboxes

- Is there a reason this is never talked about in any of the videos I could find on youtube talking about GW2's strengths and weaknesses, I feel like this was hidden as some sort of ugly truth...?

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Full story:

 

Okay, so, about 7 years ago, I started playing GW2, back then I loved the levelling I managed to get a couple characters to level 20 and I ended up stopping with gaming alltogether for private reasons (not gw2 related). Now, many years later, I come back to play this game with some friends, I did my research before selecting the first MMO I would jump back into after all these years. (I watched a lot of mmo new and I am aware of the current state of the mmo genre sadly.)

 

I watched many youtubers talk about gw2 how the endgame horizontal progression is great and how during leveling (as I remembered as well) activities are a lot more varied than other mmo's.

Sure you have plenty heart activity that feels similar, yet you get freedom in activity of choice and the number of wacky options are sometimes adorable / hilarious.... (wash the stinky cows).

After leveling to level 40 I felt I wanted to reward such an amazing game by purchasing expansions PoF & HoT, especially since I wanted to do everything this game has to offer.

 

Now I come to a sad conclusion, as I go over the list of mount skins, I notice ALL of them say "This is only available from the Black Lion Trading Company". 

I feel cheated, many people talk about the following points:

- The immense world to discover

- It's a game where any activity is rewarded

- Horizontal progression 

- Many skins many many many skins

- The creativity of the game

 

Put all of these together and I was hoping for a game where at level cap, difficult achievements, hard as f*** raids et cetera would reward me with beautiful skins of various gear, mounts & pets.

Nothing feels more awesome than to earn a beautiful purple dragon after you defeated it in a raid that takes you weeks to clear the first time. (think back to the good ol' days for those who were there for it, old school wow comes to mind).

 

Now a clear point to make: 

I'm not calling the game kitten, I'm simply trying to figure out the following questions:

- Is all of the horizontal progression summarized as, farm gold -> buy gems -> unlock skins in lootboxes

- Is there a reason this is never talked about in any of the videos I could find on youtube talking about GW2's strengths and weaknesses, I feel like this was hidden as some sort of ugly truth...?

 

 

I am still excited for this game, I just feel slightly cheated, what am I completing the entire world map for if not a fun reward? :s

If anyone out there cares enough about this to have a nice conversation about this, I would love to find the passion back I had right before I discovered this, because I am struggling somewhat with what I am going to do once I reach endgame... break off or continue 😕

 

Best wishes to all, the GW2 community has been spectacularly friendly and nice to me I love you all, 

Happy 2022 ❤️

 

For mount skins yes, you're completely right. You grind gold exchange them for gems and get your skins or you can pull out your credit card. Outside of that, theres a ton of weapon and armor skins you get from in-game activities. Majority of my armor and weapons I obtained from playing the game. I probably use 1 or 2 pieces from the gem shop. I think my characters look good. If you want to fully optimize your toon with ascended or legendary gear, nothing is tied to the gem shop. 

[Dawdler.8521]

Since two of the core assumptions are completely wrong this whole thread falls apart.

If its been 7 years, be careful not to get whiplash from the sudden realization on how the game works.

[Freya.9075]

The endgame is what you want it to be. You get rewards for everything you choose to do and can buy things in gemstore that way if you do not wish to support the game by buying gems. 
 

what you feel is an ugly truth is a positive thing. I like that gw2 has a different path then so many other games. You don’t have to grind the same thing over and over since you can just do what you want. Some ways are faster then others sure but at least you have a choice here. 

[Zephire.8049]

7 hours ago, raffaa.7135 said:

- Is all of the horizontal progression summarized as, farm gold -> buy gems -> unlock skins in lootboxes

- Is there a reason this is never talked about in any of the videos I could find on youtube talking about GW2's strengths and weaknesses, I feel like this was hidden as some sort of ugly truth...?

The horizontal progression means that there's no gear grind and that your gear never goes out of date (minus the addition of ascended years ago) thus you can jump back in after years of not playing or jump into new content right away without needing to grind to get the proper gear to do the new content. Cosmetics have nothing to do with character progression.

The reason it's not talked about is because you're looking for it in the wrong place. A lot of people do complain about GW2's cash shop and how mount skins in particular are only accessible through it, but the only time you may see someone talk about it in addition to progression is if someone's endgame is fashion (AKA Fashion Wars) as for most people, aesthetics and stats are separate issues.

Another thing is that for a lot of people, grinding hard group content for a 1% cosmetic drop is not fun or satisfying. I assume since you recently came back, you missed the Champions part of Icebrood Saga and missed the uproar over that. To summarize, arbitrary grinds were added to pad content out and keep people playing. The grind added was far less than other MMOs and had a defined end point as opposed to pure RNG but it was still enough that a lot of players were angry about it. The reason I'm bringing this up is because if you're looking for an MMO that has a chance to give you a unique reward through grind + RNG, GW2 is not it. There are some RNG drops throughout the game that can make you rich if you get one, but they are largely through scheduled open world events, not behind raids or dungeons.

For (visual) progression, it comes down to how well you put together an outfit + dyes, not RNG drops or cash shop skins. Some skins/effects carry more weight than others but it comes down to what your tastes are and who your audience is (e.g. when someone stacks various expensive infusions, some people may look at it and see it as prestige while others find it gaudy).

But again, that's visual. When people talk about GW's horizontal progression it's pure numbers and the mastery system.

And outside of expansions, you can buy everything through in-game gold so it's far less egregious than other MMOs where you can only acquire skins with real world money. It may take time and you may want to grind gold for it, but you can get it. This also makes the cash shop skins less of a big deal because it could be someone spent money or they could have grinded gold for it or they could have had a lucky drop or had enough liquid gold or been gifted it. I've actually had more people ask me about a random non-cash skins than any from the cash shop.

Glad you're enjoying the game still but when it comes to GW2 "You make your own fun" is apt. If you don't enjoy certain content, you don't have to do it. Other MMOs throw carrots in and force rep/gear grinds to make people do content they don't like but in GW2, that's rarely a thing.So if you don't like map completion, for example, you don't have to do it unless you're working on a legendary—you can do the things you enjoy doing instead. But if you're someone who likes having goals set for you by others (I'm not saying this is bad!), GW2 may be rough at the endgame for you because it's not as strict about it as other MMOs. Think of it more like a sandbox in that it's up to you to pick an area to focus on. There are guides and goals and rewards for the various aspects if you start puttering around in them but the game isn't designed to funnel you into them even if you don't want to do them and every time the developers have tested this, it was met with backlash.

[Voltekka.2375]

Endgame is PvP, wvw, raids, fractal god title, to name a few. 

All of the above have exclusive skins (yes, SKINS) you cant get otherwise. 

Dont know WHY you assume so much about horizontal progression, but thats where gw2 shines. 

Everything else is fashion wars.

[Tails.9372]

Quote

horizontal progression ... thats where gw2 shines

In terms of character skills and gameplay progression yes, GW2 does generally a good job with horizontal progression (although a lot of the progression through the mastery system and various other means is rather limited and thus often times only useful in a few areas of the game). But in terms of gear the "horizontal progression" is extremely shallow and is definitely not an area where GW2 shines.

[ArchonWing.9480]

This take is pretty insane tbh.  I have like, never, decided to ever take anything from the gem store seriously., much less attach some kind of value of progression. Dressing yourself up as a neon lamp post has zero appeal to me, and I would hope some people agree.

Edited January 2, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Voltekka.2375]

2 hours ago, Tails.9372 said:

In terms of character skills and gameplay progression yes, GW2 does generally a good job with horizontal progression (although a lot of the progression through the mastery system and various other means is rather limited and thus often times only useful in a few areas of the game). But in terms of gear the "horizontal progression" is extremely shallow and is definitely not an area where GW2 shines.

You always have the best stats, with one set. With leggy armory, you dont ever have to worry again. How bad would it be for this game to have vertical progression? People complain raids are hard as it is. Imagine vertical progression in gw2! If endless grind is your thing to get better and better stats, you may be playing the wrong game...

 

[Danikat.8537]

Assumption 1 is correct, 2 and 3 are not.

Open your hero panel, go to achievements and look at the collections section. That's all ways to earn unique skins and items by playing the game, a lot of the things which go into the collections are also cosmetics obtained by playing. And that's just one set of examples, there's many others, like the rewards from Living World meta achievements or skins which can only be bought from vendors with specific currencies. (Did you know each dungeon has 3 armour sets and a weapon set?)

There's long-term goals too, the obvious ones being legendary items (yes some weapons can be bought from the TP, but most legendaries cannot).

If the only cosmetics you're interested in are mount skins then yes you'll need a lot of gems, although as other people have pointed out you'll first need to unlock the mounts themselves and that has to be done by playing the game. But that's one very specific category, not the sum total of everything available.

[Mizuira.8245]

The main issue is this game has nearly no endgame. You have Fashion Wars but 90% is locked behind Black Lion Market.

Anet barely offers a new fractal or even a new raid per year. Dungeons are abandonned, strikes are just a copy/paste story bosses with no challenge. PvP is the same since 2012 : no new game mode supported by Anet (deathmode only for some weeks, Bastion never got an update or a new map). WvW is exactly the same since HoT, no support for 5 years now.

The only thing Anet is offering : story and open world PvE for farmers. You like it or you leave. That's why no one talk about GW2 anymore or about End of Dragons coming soon. FF14, TESO or BDO have far more support every year than GW2.

GW2 has an awesome business model with no vertical progression, it is the more casual friendly MMO on the market. It's the only reason the game is still populated. If you are looking for content, don't pick GW2. If you have no time to play or just want chill gameplay not using brain, pick GW2.

Edited January 2, 2022 by Mizuira.8245

[Brandon Uzumaki.1524]

10 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

Sadly, this is exactly what a casual MMO means.

Locking certain rewards behind a certain skill level only draws more complaints for a crowd who would never intend for skill based progression.

Therefore grind and money shop became the preferable route by the majority.

So true lol, the amount of people with full Legendaries i saw complaining (and still see from time to time) about Skyscale back in the day, did not understood at first but then it dawned on me "oh, of course, some probably swiped, skipped the grind and made those legendaries in 30 minutes", while you can't do that with Skyscale until the very end.

And Skyscale is not even challenging lol, only requires pacience and a bit of time.

[Dawdler.8521]

2 hours ago, Mizuira.8245 said:

The main issue is this game has nearly no endgame. You have Fashion Wars but 90% is locked behind Black Lion Market.

Parroting the OPs false claims. The game has some 6000ish skins. Are you saying there is 5500ish skins in the gemstore?

[Rasimir.6239]

14 hours ago, raffaa.7135 said:

what am I completing the entire world map for if not a fun reward?

In this game, you should focus on playing content you enjoy playing, not playing content for the rewards.

 

One of the core design decisions this game made was precisely to not lock the majority of rewards behind specific content. Instead the game has a robust trading system that allows each player to get to (most of) the rewards they want by playing whatever content they enjoy, then trading the rewards they don't need for the ones they are looking for.

 

Gemstore skins really are just a small part of the equation. As others mentioned, there are lots of skins you can earn in game, as drops, through collections, from vendors for map currency or karma, and more. Check the wardrobe section of your bank for an overview and preview  of (most of) the armour skins, weapon skins, back items, and mini pets available. The majority of these can be earned or bought in game.

 

A few categories are mostly exclusive to the gem store, namely most gliders, mount skins, and outfits. Even then there ways to get some of these through in-game means. Check the wiki on Black Lion Statuettes and Wardrobe Unlocks for more info. Again it's not something you farm specifically, but rather a bonus you're likely to aquire after playing the content you enjoy for a while.

 

As was already mentioned in this thread, this isn't a game that lures you to places by the proverbial carrot on a stick. Endgame in GW2 is what you make of it. Find out what you enjoy about the game, and play that. You'll find that rewards just accumulate by themselves as long as you're having fun 😉 .

 

 

[Mizuira.8245]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Parroting the OPs false claims. The game has some 6000ish skins. Are you saying there is 5500ish skins in the gemstore?

Well, apart from legendary items, I see 90% of the playerbase using only BLTC armors/skins/outfit. It became so rare to see someone wearing dungeons skins or armors set/pieces from HOT/POF. Infusions are the exception but for bad obvious reasons (shinyyyyyyy!!!😅).

But it was not my main complaint. I complain about endgame contents. You can have hundred of news skins every month out of the BLTC, if you need to do the same content over and over to get them you have no real horizontal progression. Prob is not about the rewars themselves but how the system reward works. IT IS SO BAD BECAUSE WE NEVER HAVE NEW CONTENT.

As the OP says : "The only way of progressing (horizontally) is by farming gold by any repetitive activity". If Aned add new various content (fractals, raids, strikes, open world meta events, hard collection with various objectives, special PvE boss, specific PvP mode or PvEvP mode) there will be a sign of progression because each content has something unique to promote and offer.

We maybe got 2 fractals and 2 raids in 3 years, copy/paste bosses from story in strikes et nothing new from open PvE since HoT with the same mechanics. Stories don't even have CM modes like in season 2. So yeah, main problem is no new content, therefore no horizontal progression as you are just farming gold or easy instancied content for weeks/month 🤮

Edited January 2, 2022 by Mizuira.8245

[Danikat.8537]

According to GW2Efficiency there are 450 gem store armour skins (and that counts any which is available for all armour weights as 3 seperate skins) and 59 weapon skins.

The same site says there are 1,877 armour skins available in-game (again ones for all armour weights are counted 3 times) and 4,202 weapon skins.

So if my maths is correct 19.33% of armour skins and 1.38% of weapons come from the gem store. (And if my maths is wrong please do let me know.)

[Rasimir.6239]

10 minutes ago, Mizuira.8245 said:

if you need to do the same content over and over to get them you have no real horizontal progression.

That's the great thing about this game: you never have to do the same content over and over. Instead you can just do whatever content you enjoy that moment, and still get rewarded.

 

It's what I love about this game: I can play whatever I feel like and no matter what I choose, I get closer to getting something cool in the end. This week I've done strike missions with friends, a chill evening of wintersday activities, leveling a new guardian through the personal story, found I had enough strike mission currency to dress her in exotic armor that unlocked new skins in my wardrobe, gained a mini from an achievement, had fun with friends in dungeons, played living world story with another friend, and so on.

 

No matter what I do, everything is rewarding me with both enjoyment and in-game shinies. None of the other MMOs I play or have played over the last couple of decades have given me that freedom. They all require(d) me to play a very narrow set of content, sometimes even on a very rigid schedule (looking at you, ESO event ticket rewards), to get what I want, or miss out on it forever.

[ArchonWing.9480]

2 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Parroting the OPs false claims. The game has some 6000ish skins. Are you saying there is 5500ish skins in the gemstore?

Hey this is a casual game, math isn't required!

[Rasimir.6239]

1 hour ago, Mizuira.8245 said:

Well, apart from legendary items, I see 90% of the playerbase using only BLTC armors/skins/outfit. It became so rare to see someone wearing dungeons skins or armors set/pieces from HOT/POF. Infusions are the exception but for bad obvious reasons (shinyyyyyyy!!!😅).

Interesting. May I ask where you are seeing all these people? Sounds like you spend your time in places I rarely go to, because what I see in game is very different from what you describe here.