Condi should not equal power burst damage

[anjo.6143]

2 hours ago, Eugchriss.2046 said:

Soulbeast, FA weaver, berzeker, DE do that in like 2-3 secs. Shatter mes in 2 secs at most. 

I think you don't understand the definition of burst. Your condi is doing 4.5k per sec. Power burst does something like 6-7k+ per sec. 

 

1 dodge and u prevent half of the power burst.

4.5kdmg per second from condi isnt bursty enough? Half of hp bar in 2 sec from condi. Lol.

Alright then... 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Yes, condis do nothing which is why I could probably wreck most of you on a condi Druid and stalemate the others.  All using passives and easy to reapply condis like bleed.  

I'm not singling out Druid here either, it's really just what I play--I've seen the same happen with burn guards or in the past with torment and confusion prior to those getting nerfs.

Anyway, it's just honesty--condis are way easier method to go than power.  Even if your top burst damage is lower, you have far greater sustain, health, armor, etc. Maybe less pronounced in PvP because of the amulets, but in other modes like WvW it's a no-brainer on which is the easier path.  

Also the fact we're using cleansing sigils as a prop to argue for the current state of conditions says a lot.  Remove those, then what? Oh right, you absolutely obliterate power builds as they all now have to build a ton of cleanses in, whereas a lot of condi builds get that free through conversion or other mechanics.  

Edited February 11, 2022 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Sigmoid.7082]

10 minutes ago, anjo.6143 said:

1 dodge and u prevent half of the power burst.

Why is this a thing

 

10 minutes ago, anjo.6143 said:

4.5kdmg per second from condi isnt bursty enough? Half of hp bar in 2 sec from condi. Lol.

But dodging half the hits that resulted in this, cutting it significantly, isn't?

[anjo.6143]

13 minutes ago, Sigmoid.7082 said:

Why is this a thing

 

But dodging half the hits that resulted in this, cutting it significantly, isn't?

Nope, cause condis doesnt work like that. It will spike u and keep doing dmg no matter you dodge after, you only can cleanse, but then they will reapply almost insta. 

[The Boz.2038]

You are supposed to dodge the attack that delivers the condis.
 

You...

You are aware of that, right?

We are running in circles. If he has infinite reapplies, you have infinite dodges. If he has undodgeable condis, you have infinite cleanses. There. Is balanced.

Jesus.

[Abyssisis.3971]

I always thought cleanse and break stuns need an immunity after using them to prevent reapplication and stun lock.

[coro.3176]

10 minutes ago, anjo.6143 said:

Nope, cause condis doesnt work like that. It will spike u and keep doing dmg no matter you dodge after, you only can cleanse, but then they will reapply almost insta. 

So what I'm hearing is: if you dodge one attack, you should be immune from conditions for the rest of the fight. Got it. That's definitely how it works for power too.

[Curennos.9307]

17 minutes ago, Abyssisis.3971 said:

I always thought cleanse and break stuns need an immunity after using them to prevent reapplication and stun lock.

Imo, if you get baited into using your cleanses right before the next round then that's a player mistake. I could see this working for non-damaging conditions, but condi already has a very odd place (or lack thereof) in builds. There's really no reason to make cleanses stronger.

[Eugchriss.2046]

1 hour ago, anjo.6143 said:

 

1 dodge and u prevent half of the power burst.

4.5kdmg per second from condi isnt bursty enough? Half of hp bar in 2 sec from condi. Lol.

Alright then... 

1 cleanse and you prevent half of the condi burst.

How much is enough then? The main subject was power burst = condi burst. You prove yourself that it's not true.

[Sylvia.4870]

 Confusion, Bleeding, Poison, Torment, Burning, Fear(if equipped with Terror - Necromancer's additional damage)= Main Condition Damage. The other conditions that aren't related to Condition Damage are optional and situational to cleanse. 

[HokenPWNZ.7628]

Pre 2020 feb meta was cool and skillfull. Now spvp is a condispam clownfiesta. Boring and anoying. No timing no reaction. PVErs go brrrrr

Pvp is dead because no one wants to play with you with such rules of the game. If people really liked this clown fiesta spvp would be filled with people

Edited February 12, 2022 by HokenPWNZ.7628

[Axl.8924]

12 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Yes, condis do nothing which is why I could probably wreck most of you on a condi Druid and stalemate the others.  All using passives and easy to reapply condis like bleed.  

I'm not singling out Druid here either, it's really just what I play--I've seen the same happen with burn guards or in the past with torment and confusion prior to those getting nerfs.

Anyway, it's just honesty--condis are way easier method to go than power.  Even if your top burst damage is lower, you have far greater sustain, health, armor, etc. Maybe less pronounced in PvP because of the amulets, but in other modes like WvW it's a no-brainer on which is the easier path.  

Also the fact we're using cleansing sigils as a prop to argue for the current state of conditions says a lot.  Remove those, then what? Oh right, you absolutely obliterate power builds as they all now have to build a ton of cleanses in, whereas a lot of condi builds get that free through conversion or other mechanics.  

What i hate about this argument is that it argues one side but completely forgets one fact: you need to invest in proper sustain to keep up sometimes to survive and outright outlast your opponent. Some condi builds do burst really hard and yeah that can be a prob but nerfing condis without nerfing cleanses will just dumpster some build options and opt out for more  whining about OP Class and also create even more debates about class balance and necessity for condition builds. I def agree that it wouldn't be healthy to have burst like power on condi as that kind of damage is unhealthy as conditions can be frustrating to eliminate.

[FarmBotXD.1430]

17 hours ago, Eugchriss.2046 said:

Soulbeast, FA weaver, berzeker, DE do that in like 2-3 secs. Shatter mes in 2 secs at most. 

I think you don't understand the definition of burst. Your condi is doing 4.5k per sec. Power burst does something like 6-7k+ per sec. 

lul glass slb does more like 10k/s+ with pack.
but hey condi OP

[FarmBotXD.1430]

14 hours ago, anjo.6143 said:

 

1 dodge and u prevent half of the power burst.

4.5kdmg per second from condi isnt bursty enough? Half of hp bar in 2 sec from condi. Lol.

Alright then... 

What we mean is what you people consider " burst " that takes 3s+ power builds consider 1 skill.
Like yea technically 4,5k dmg/s is a lot but I can hit for over 10k with 1 skill on soulbeast, and if you consider 4,5k/s a burst then what the kitten is 10k+ dmg in 0,5s.

[Vancho.8750]

19 hours ago, Abyssisis.3971 said:

I always thought cleanse and break stuns need an immunity after using them to prevent reapplication and stun lock.

Well that is why no one is using the pure break stun skills at all, you take stuff like on stun break you get stability(that one still kind of sucks since most get kitteny with corruption or multihit stuns) , stunbreak and then cc skills, stunbreak dodgeis really good, stunreak into stealth, stunbreak into into invuln and probably the best stunbreak teleport. Anything that doesn't let you turn around the situation is total garbage.  

[Gamble.4580]

Condi ain't even in this meta tho.. as necro ain't taken for its condi bursts its taken for its peel and kill windows it opens in 5v5

[Eugchriss.2046]

2 hours ago, Gamble.4580 said:

Condi ain't even in this meta tho.. as necro ain't taken for its condi bursts its taken for its peel and kill windows it opens in 5v5

damaging condi are not but non damaging ones are all over the places. 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

12 hours ago, FarmBotXD.1430 said:

What we mean is what you people consider " burst " that takes 3s+ power builds consider 1 skill.
Like yea technically 4,5k dmg/s is a lot but I can hit for over 10k with 1 skill on soulbeast, and if you consider 4,5k/s a burst then what the kitten is 10k+ dmg in 0,5s.

 

What exactly is this 'one skill'...please tell me it isn't rapid fire.  If it is, that skill is so overplayed, so easy to dodge, and so 'meme' that it is just annoying every time this comes up in discussions. 

You also blow an entire bar to do this 'one skill', because it isn't one skill--it's at least three: OWP, Sic' Em!, and Rapid Fire.  Four if you count LB #4 for opener.  Even more skills if you want more safety from stealth (initial hunter's shot, or smokescale field + leap, etc.).

But the kicker is the tradeoff isn't even the 3+ skills you need for this 'burst'; it's you also have to be glass.  So, if someone magically evades this OP power burst, you are going to die as you have one kiting option in Swoop unless you bring bird, in which case you are sacrificing sources of stealth in addition to everything else.  

Contrast this with Guardians, Necros, Druids, and even Thiefs who have either insane damage mitigation (full cleanses, blocks, stealth, double health bars + trailblazer + minions, etc.) or great kiting options on top of that with super tanky gear.  We don't regularly see 1vX 'roaming condi kitten' videos because conditions are weak.  

[FarmBotXD.1430]

3 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

What exactly is this 'one skill'...please tell me it isn't rapid fire.  If it is, that skill is so overplayed, so easy to dodge, and so 'meme' that it is just annoying every time this comes up in discussions. 

You also blow an entire bar to do this 'one skill', because it isn't one skill--it's at least three: OWP, Sic' Em!, and Rapid Fire.  Four if you count LB #4 for opener.  Even more skills if you want more safety from stealth (initial hunter's shot, or smokescale field + leap, etc.).

But the kicker is the tradeoff isn't even the 3+ skills you need for this 'burst'; it's you also have to be glass.  So, if someone magically evades this OP power burst, you are going to die as you have one kiting option in Swoop unless you bring bird, in which case you are sacrificing sources of stealth in addition to everything else.  

Contrast this with Guardians, Necros, Druids, and even Thiefs who have either insane damage mitigation (full cleanses, blocks, stealth, double health bars + trailblazer + minions, etc.) or great kiting options on top of that with super tanky gear.  We don't regularly see 1vX 'roaming condi kitten' videos because conditions are weak.  

maul or WI hits for ~10k on glass.
I dont even metion rapid fire + OWP + sic em cuz thats closer to 30k in damage, I have blown through 80k worth of necro with barrage + rapid + owp + sic em if they facetank it.
I legit got people killed with F1 ( knockdown from scale ) into maul + WI, legit 8k -> 10k game over.
100% crit chance ofc.
Is the build strong? nah, but this is what burst is, not pathetic 4k/s after landing several skills.

[Ashgar.3024]

On 2/11/2022 at 5:19 PM, Abyssisis.3971 said:

I always thought cleanse and break stuns need an immunity after using them to prevent reapplication and stun lock.

Yeah clearly what this game needs right now is even more immunity frames... are we playing the same game?

[Abyssisis.3971]

2 hours ago, Ashgar.3024 said:

Yeah clearly what this game needs right now is even more immunity frames... are we playing the same game?

Yes it does, especially on cleanse and stun breaks. Stun locking should never have been a thing to begin with and Immunity on cleanse should only prevent the reapplication of conditions, not immunity to condition damage that wasn’t removed by cleanse. And let’s face, the game is really bad atm so it can’t really hurt too much making changes like this. Lol

[Sigmoid.7082]

1 hour ago, Abyssisis.3971 said:

Yes it does, especially on cleanse and stun breaks. Stun locking should never have been a thing to begin with and Immunity on cleanse should only prevent the reapplication of conditions, not immunity to condition damage that wasn’t removed by cleanse. And let’s face, the game is really bad atm so it can’t really hurt too much making changes like this. Lol

Let's also add immunity to strike damage after you mitigate some of it.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

5 hours ago, FarmBotXD.1430 said:

maul or WI hits for ~10k on glass.
I dont even metion rapid fire + OWP + sic em cuz thats closer to 30k in damage, I have blown through 80k worth of necro with barrage + rapid + owp + sic em if they facetank it.
I legit got people killed with F1 ( knockdown from scale ) into maul + WI, legit 8k -> 10k game over.
100% crit chance ofc.
Is the build strong? nah, but this is what burst is, not pathetic 4k/s after landing several skills.

 

Right, this is all basic ranger stuff--but the thing here is Maul and WI, and even Rapid Fire are easy to dodge.  So you noobstomp some people; you mention yourself the build isn't strong, and I agree because if the other player uses any defenses you lose.  

This is not the case for condition damage which can tick 4k+/s with easy re-application, and if they dodge any part of it (which is usually much harder) you don't have glass stats so you can just run around until they lose via attrition.  

That's the entire point though, is it is too easy to build tanky with conditions.  I'm all for restoring the glory of confusion and torment if they get rid of the crazy defensive sets that condition builds have access to.  That way, at least they are normalized with power in needing to run glass, instead of having 3k+ toughness, and in some cases lots of healing power or boons too.  

[Myror.7521]

Condis are fair balanced. You could somehow kill peoples half by only doing one condition skill on them (of course only when they dont cleanes it). While on Power you need to hit all your high Power skills to get the same reslut. (Except no block/dodge/blind/evade) 

 

Nah for Real now conditions are imo somehow too strong BUT they need to be this strong since this game is full of condi cleanses. So if you want to get this balanced you need to turn down condi cleanses and then nerf the Overall damage of conditions themselfs for idk letz say 33%?

[Abyssisis.3971]

3 hours ago, Sigmoid.7082 said:

Let's also add immunity to strike damage after you mitigate some of it.

Sure, sounds like you need it.

In your +1700 posts, have you ever complained about the skillless spam fiesta this game has degenerated into? If so, why are you getting your panties in a bunch over adding mechanics to the game to break up such degenerative gameplay?

Edited February 13, 2022 by Abyssisis.3971