Class balance discussion

[Shroud.2307]

The state of play right now is this,

* Solo roaming is doable in the Borderlands and terrible in EBG. This will vary depending on the match and time of day, but in general, Mounts, Tactics, and class balance just make it not fun or even reasonable to do.

* Small scale havoc and zerg busting is equally terrible. Again, Mounts, Tactics, and class balance. You can't accomplish much as a small group unless the other servers are distracted with each other. If you comp and go for zerg busting the only thing you can do is pester pugs. Because you can return to fights so quickly, small comp groups need to have supports to deal with the constant flow of respawns. But because they need to run tanky, it also means they often can't kill fast enough. It's a feedback loop of lose/lose. You play offensive and you can't handle very many at a time, you play tanky and you get overwhelmed.

* Large guilds are 75% supports with Scrappers and Firebrands aplenty, and Tempests having a not insignificant presence as well. These guilds roll through maps literally walking through damage because Super Speed gets them out of it so fast there's no time for it do much. Anything that tries to fight back has to be equally large or there's no point in trying. People get farmed by a wall of players they can't dent, retreat to their objectives, and either both sides get bored or the force with the numbers takes what ever they feel like.

Guilds being rewarded by being effective is okay. It gives reason to comping and wanting to play serious. But there needs to be a happy medium.
Support is too effective, damage is too low, and it's always safer to travel together. Blobs and large guild comps shouldn't have free reign just because they have more people. Smaller groups used to be able to stop this if they knew how.

What needs to be done with each class to make the meta more comfortable?

* Super Speed should not be sharable except in rare cases. Toss Elixir U, "Eye Of The Storm!", Chaotic Release, those things are okay. Scrapper has way too much access to group Super Speed to the point it's gotten ridiculous.

* A very small buff to Winds Of Disenchantment could go a long way. Reduce cast time to 1second, increase duration by 1second.

* Dragonhunter has been sailing under the radar for ages now and needs to have some damage knocked off Traps. We want killing power to fight boonblobs, but I fail to see how Traps ticking for 10 - 15k is okay when things like Coalescence Of Ruin or even Bomb Kit autos were nerfed, both of which were easier to see. Give some damage back to things that lost it, and shave things that are more rewarding than they deserve to be.

* Anti-projectiles should have a target cap. I don't know if some of them have different rules than others, but to my knowledge, most of them have an unlimited cap on projectile destruction. This means x1 Defense Field from a Scrapper protects everyone inside of it, no matter how many. The Stability it applies is limited to the first 5.

How do you feel about the state of WvW, and what would you change?
 

Spoiler

Share your thoughts below.

 

Edited February 22, 2022 by Shroud.2307

[Dawdler.8521]

TL;DR everything is ok and terrible.

[Custodio.6134]

Well, I dunno where you get the "75% support setup" - idea from. 

A very basic setup per subgroup is usually 1 Support-Firebrand, 1 Heal-Scrapper and 3 DPS. that's 40% supports, not 75%.

 

I also didn't even notice any rich presence if Tempest in the past (after the aurashare-nerf), it's quite the opposite. I rarely even see any Tempest at all. 

 

Also, damage is not too low at all. While I agree that constant pressure is pretty easy to sustain against, the spikes (Rev-spikes and shade / well - spikes) are pretty deadly and almost impossible to heal against if not dodged or blocked. 

 

Yes, DH traps are extremely powerful. However, they are extremely situational and almost useless until you either get pushed, or push yourself. In the latter scenario, it is a high risk - high reward play which can easily be stopped if your necros don't sleep and use their Corrupts. 

 

About the projectile hate: I kind of agree. It kills almost every weapon/skill that is projectile based, restricting your class/weapon choices quite a lot. However, a target cap could be very hard to balance I think. 

[Clownmug.8357]

Don't know what needs to be changed but supports definitely need to be looked at. WvW's design doesn't seem to have scaled up well from players just being able to blast water fields for healing and stack a little swiftness and might for boons.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

i don't think anything will change until they start messing with target caps.

[Jski.6180]

The lack of balance for the classes in wvw alone is the problem with the game. And what balance we do see in wvw seem more like what going to happen with pve balancing just 1 patch or so delayed. Wvw is becoming the staging palcse for pve balancing to get ppl ready for it and to see how it plays out. Its just wrong for anet to do that because we see pve aimed balancing in wvw more then pvp balancing.

[Xenesis.6389]

Buckle up buttercup, the expansion of speed is coming next week.

[Xenesis.6389]

8 hours ago, Shroud.2307 said:

What needs to be done with each class to make the meta more comfortable?

* Super Speed should not be sharable except in rare cases. Toss Elixir U, "Eye Of The Storm!", Chaotic Release, those things are okay. Scrapper has way too much access to group Super Speed to the point it's gotten ridiculous.

Good luck with that, a certain dev plays support scrapper for their guild.

 

The duration cap should have never been raised.

[kash.9213]

Class balance has made too many people a little thicc this round but mounts and tactics don't seem to be a huge game changer. I like having a mount on any map but we need options for animation and control even if speed would be regulated, because Warclaw feels sluggish. I'd rather get rid of structure buffs if anything, if we're never getting real open world pvp, having structure buffs on a truncated map that's largely unused feels counter to the game mode that mostly simmers down into fight lanes.

The problem dealing with support like Firebrands is, your havoc or pickup group and sadly most guilds aren't trying to pull, debuff, or dismantle and snipe for a quick stomp to start a cascade. They're probably trying to snipe the driver instead, so those comped squads are probably going to farm for awhile. Even when I snipe a key support and I can feel the squad or blob get a little shaky trying to mitigate and collect themselves, most of your facetanking teammates aren't likely to capitalize on the opportunities you open up unless you happen to have all your old familiar pugs or guilds you normally vibe with around you.

Edited February 22, 2022 by kash.9213

[Justine.6351]

I don't care about the balance. I am just saddened by the way so many people choose to play. No adventure, no risk, no fun. Outnumber everything, run away if fight too hard. Its gotten to the point where I have to play like this as a means to reciprocate in some capacity to show them how trash it is. A taste of their own medicine. Of course they probably come to the forums to write threads about how lame it is. Roamers killed roaming, not anet.

[coro.3176]

47 minutes ago, Justine.6351 said:

I don't care about the balance. I am just saddened by the way so many people choose to play. No adventure, no risk, no fun. Outnumber everything, run away if fight too hard. Its gotten to the point where I have to play like this as a means to reciprocate in some capacity to show them how trash it is. A taste of their own medicine. Of course they probably come to the forums to write threads about how lame it is. Roamers killed roaming, not anet.

 

 

But seriously, this goes back to GW2's fundamental design. It's never supposed to be bad to have an ally show up and help you - even to help you crush your enemy with superior numbers.

IIRC, Desert BL was originally made to support small groups, but the players wouldn't accept the program. They hated it (still hate it!); demanded that it change to be like the other BLs. The devs acquiesced. 

If you want a vision of the future of WvW, imagine a zerg K-training EBG forever.

[Xenesis.6389]

42 minutes ago, coro.3176 said:

If you want a vision of the future of WvW, imagine a zerg K-training EBG forever.

 

Don't be hating on the Mag or BG dream!

 

Also to this day desert is unpolished. There's still plenty of spots on stairs or ramps even roots where you get stopped and have to jump to keep moving, on something that should be easily stepped over. Go ahead and check the ramps in fire keep on the way to second floor, or check the rampart area of ne tower, or that bamboo ramp area near se camp. And while it still exist in some areas in the old maps like umberglade camp wood on the ground, it's practically everywhere on desert. Ever notice how most times you can't use mount dash fully on the stairs on desert but you can almost everywhere on the old maps?

 

Desert is a lot better now than it was in the beginning, it was designed for small groups, sure, like eotm with all it's chokes, except eotm turned into a fat ktrain every time. Let's be real, there's no commander that would break their zerg down into small groups to go after stuff, not when you get to an objective and the enemy has 40 waiting on you, suddenly those two 5 man groups you sent to towers on the other side of the map could have been more useful to you then. Putting barriers and chokes everywhere doesn't exactly tell players to go in small groups, just move your fat groups in single file and don't look down....

Edited February 22, 2022 by Xenesis.6389

[Shiyo.3578]

Roaming is hot garbage. 90% of roamers are players you can't interact with.

• Permastealth
• Invincible support bunkers
• Condi bunkers

It's not even a balance issue. Class design is straight up terrible. Too much bloat and power creep. Boons are out of control and EVERYONE spams too many boons too often. Everyone has too much mobility and it's too easy to run away into a tower/keep/castle.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/"Protect_Me!" Utils like this are absurd. Look at how much this does on such a short CD. This could be a 3m CD elite and it'd still be good in any other pvp game with sensible CDs.

Edited February 22, 2022 by Shiyo.3578

[Shroud.2307]

3 hours ago, Justine.6351 said:

I don't care about the balance. I am just saddened by the way so many people choose to play. No adventure, no risk, no fun. Outnumber everything, run away if fight too hard. Its gotten to the point where I have to play like this as a means to reciprocate in some capacity to show them how trash it is. A taste of their own medicine. Of course they probably come to the forums to write threads about how lame it is. Roamers killed roaming, not anet.

I agree 100%

I don't get it. Nothing wrong with protecting yourself and playing smart, but most players aren't doing that. They're just avoiding effort.
 

2 hours ago, coro.3176 said:

But seriously, this goes back to GW2's fundamental design. It's never supposed to be bad to have an ally show up and help you - even to help you crush your enemy with superior numbers.

I agree with this too, but that doesn't make it fun.

Players have gotten progressively more dependent on numbers to accomplish anything. That's great and all for the sake of the MMO feel, but it also makes for boring content when there aren't any zergs. No one will leave their towers or their own territory because the hive mind can't exist without the swarm.

It has always been this way, but it has worsened as time has gone on to the point that very few people will bother to fight someone without overwhelming them.

Like again, I agree. This isn't me saying don't play with friends, it's just a complaint of the way behavior has changed because it's lame for people who want to do their own thing. 

[Jski.6180]

6 hours ago, Shroud.2307 said:

I agree 100%

I don't get it. Nothing wrong with protecting yourself and playing smart, but most players aren't doing that. They're just avoiding effort.
 

I agree with this too, but that doesn't make it fun.

Players have gotten progressively more dependent on numbers to accomplish anything. That's great and all for the sake of the MMO feel, but it also makes for boring content when there aren't any zergs. No one will leave their towers or their own territory because the hive mind can't exist without the swarm.

It has always been this way, but it has worsened as time has gone on to the point that very few people will bother to fight someone without overwhelming them.

Like again, I agree. This isn't me saying don't play with friends, it's just a complaint of the way behavior has changed because it's lame for people who want to do their own thing. 

Unless you can get every one to buy into playing in a much more "fun" way your going to just have one meta group steam rolling over the more "fun" builds.

Stop having ppl play support FB and healing support scraper. Make your support FB come as core gurds and your healing support scraper come as dps scrapers. It would do a lot for "fun" of the game BUT the moment you run into a meta group you will find that your going to lose and running into an brick wall of lose is never fun.

This has every thing to do with anet not balancing there game often enofe.

[Aeolus.3615]

On 2/23/2022 at 5:50 AM, Jski.6180 said:

Unless you can get every one to buy into playing in a much more "fun" way your going to just have one meta group steam rolling over the more "fun" builds.

Stop having ppl play support FB and healing support scraper. Make your support FB come as core gurds and your healing support scraper come as dps scrapers. It would do a lot for "fun" of the game BUT the moment you run into a meta group you will find that your going to lose and running into an brick wall of lose is never fun.

This has every thing to do with anet not balancing there game often enofe.

yeah but they actually balanced the game for what they believe  its ideal efficiency towards wvw, stack only some classes on wvw make some overenhanced  metabuilds work better then anything else, and game is set.

Scrapper  for example is very overtuned atm to help all the FB stacking and help it while dealing with a the huge amount of reapers and scourges on the other side this made  zergs end being completed by just 3-4 classes at best, the rest is the canon fodder guys. 

 

EDIT2: note that game is in a phase that m8 take longer to balance stuff since its expantion is hitting soon, classes that needed some stuff to be toned down and others that need to be toned up wont happen for quite some large period.

Edited February 24, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[displayname.8315]

Did the OP join a comped and competent 15-20s  zergbusting guild or is this about a tiny group of pickup roamers not being able to zergbust?

 

Following a couple of other roamers around is not "comped".. zergbusting guilds ran smaller but not small. 

 

Still gotta have some comp and competence or your just more pugs.

[Strider Pj.2193]

5 minutes ago, displayname.8315 said:

Did the OP join a comped and competent 15-20s  zergbusting guild or is this about a tiny group of pickup roamers not being able to zergbust?

 

Following a couple of other roamers around is not "comped".. zergbusting guilds ran smaller but not small. 

 

Still gotta have some comp and competence or your just more pugs.

It couldn’t have been a comped Zerg busting guild as he is stating 75% supports…. 
 

It would be more of a wet noodle Zerg.

[Money.7218]

wvw is just clown fiesta, balance is impossible

[subversiontwo.7501]

On 2/22/2022 at 10:26 AM, Shroud.2307 said:

The state of play right now is this,

What needs to be done with each class to make the meta more comfortable?

How do you feel about the state of WvW, and what would you change

 

This is the flawed premise of this thread same as most other recent threads: How you "feel" about the state of WvW is completely irrelevant and in order to discuss the state of WvW or the balance of the game you would need to actually talk, talk about things with an open mind, engage with the arguments others make, not just retreat to rehash the same blanket statements every other week; and root your own arguments in concrete figures and facts.

The main counterpoint to this thread or any outside-looking-in threads like it is this: There is not a single melee damage role in the meta and there has not been one for years. Any shifting of balance that favours range will just favour range more. Any shifting of balance that favours control will just favour range more. Once you get to terms with that you can have a healthier discussion of the topic.

To underline that: The 2020 changes to damage created healthier large-scale content by enabling a meta of flexible damage where ranged spikes are followed up by melee pushes and builds that in some cases utilize a longer ranged weapon and a shorter ranged weapon. However, the current meta is still less melee-oriented than the vanilla heyday of melee, ranged and focus roles. That builds on Spellbreakers and Chronomancers use Minstrel gear has more to do with the demand on tank to play more melee-oriented positions than it has to do with their ability to support. They're also the first roles to go if the meta shifts further in favour of range. It also stands to be reminded that support was nerfed along with damage in that same patch. The main difference then and now is mainly in burst-to-relative-hitpoints or how aggressive you have to be to follow up damage. We want aggressive risk-reward.

The argument of superspeed only suggests that players should spend more time in cripple and chill, leading to a slower, ranged kiting favoured gameplay. I have no strong feelings about superspeed on a class-balance level. The game did not use to have it, so the game should not need it. However, any discussion about superspeed that does not consider its removal or restriction to come with equal or stronger counter balances to crowd control is just dishonest. Superspeed, much like stability, exists as a bottom line against the prevalence- and logical-mechanical advantages of control versus its other counterplay. It can be taken out of the game, it can be seen as a cop-out from the developers in maintaining balance in more direct ways, but it also needs to be understood why it exists. Norms of chill and cripple makes for unfun gameplay and it was not the norm in vanilla.

The arguments for projectiles and against Dragon Hunters seems more like they are class-balance concerns where DH or other ground-target AoE oriented builds occupy roles that you want. Much like superspeed the discussion about projectile mechanics versus reticle mechanics is an interesting one but it is dishonest to think that you will affect any positive change by just adding more ranged dominance to an already range-dominated situation (at larger scale, where projectile balance is relevant). It is a much larger balance project than I think people presume it to be.

So, if you take all the fluff the away, all your arguments essentially boils down to two overarching arguments: Projectile-AoE balance and superspeed-condi balance. Both are valid discussions but it is extremely important to hold those discussions with actual and factual balance in mind so they don't just delve down to "I want slower movement, more ranged dominance and solo-oriented gameplay" because those things tie back to the main counterpoint, are not balanced or healthy for the game mode. Mostly because that is just more likely to recreate pirate ship metas where Breakers and Chronos get replaced by stacking more Scourges (and Scourge going back to staff), commanders push less and more players in the squads can shoot back on havoc, clouds and solos at 1200.

As you, yourself, state: being effective, serious and composed should hold value (and will despite any shift in class- or range balance). It would further aid your discussion if you could apply that insight to other things that you bring up such as the potential of small groups to affect things. In terms of mechanics, this game is mainly rooted in a factor of five, so any argument about those things would naturally take such a perspective, otherwise you'd argue for fundamental changes to the game that goes far beyond balance. Me, I am of the opinion that you can do most things in this game (mode) effectively with four friends, if you make some attempt to be effective, serious and composed. It is fine to challenge and talk about that, but then talk about it on that premise. What can/not be done with a party?

One of the best things about WvW is that possibility of cross-scale balance or subcontent and that challenge.

• It's fine if people then wants to play by themselves or have their own feelings, but that gives flawed impressions of the actual balance of things and they need to understand that too.
• I mostly say these things to help people understand and let them create better threads in the future, because I honestly think Anet learnt something from the pirate ship metas of the past and are not likely to fall into those traps again no matter how vocal subjective- or solo players become. We can never be certain of course.
• As always, my own ideal of large-scale balance was the balance we had in late vanilla where roles encompassed both melee, ranged and focus parties. Class balance was also rather healthy around that time.

Edited February 24, 2022 by subversiontwo.7501

[Jski.6180]

3 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

yeah but they actually balanced the game for what they believe  its ideal efficiency towards wvw, stack only some classes on wvw make some overenhanced  metabuilds work better then anything else, and game is set.

Scrapper  for example is very overtuned atm to help all the FB stacking and help it while dealing with a the huge amount of reapers and scourges on the other side this made  zergs end being completed by just 3-4 classes at best, the rest is the canon fodder guys. 

 

EDIT2: note that game is in a phase that m8 take longer to balance stuff since its expantion is hitting soon, classes that needed some stuff to be toned down and others that need to be toned up wont happen for quite some large period.

And the gw2 community keeps telling them they are doing the wrong thing.

Scraper is out right broken as an class at least FB has a cast limitation. Anet went out of there way to make an effectively scraper only effect perma super speed into something easier for JUST that class to get a full effect. Reaper need to fight in melee and scourges had have there target caps nerfed hard. At what point do you start to nerf the CHOSEN support classes for scraper and FB get some well needed nerfs and the non chosen support get well needed buffs?

Unless there was an expansion talked about 2 years ago after they said they where going to do regular updates to deal with there place holder nerfs like 300 sec to passive skills and no real update to cd and effect of hard cc after the genrel dmg nerf. Anet lies a LOT then.

This is not a question of overtuned this is a question of the player base of FB and scraper holding gw2 wvw balancing hostages.

[subversiontwo.7501]

30 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

At what point do you start to nerf the CHOSEN support classes for scraper and FB get some well needed nerfs and the non chosen support get well needed buffs?

 

Quote

This is not a question of overtuned this is a question of the player base of FB and scraper holding gw2 wvw balancing hostages.

What exactly are they holding hostage? It sounds more like you want to do a certain thing with a certain class that it is currently not built to do, or that is not covered by the help of meta sites, and you are envious about other classes doing what you want to do. If you were more honest and open about what your actual concern is then maybe we could help you. Is there a specific class that you play but have issues finding your place in the content?

Edited February 24, 2022 by subversiontwo.7501

[AlCapwnd.7834]

I have an idea. ANET should reach out to all active and even non active commanders (i'm sure they know who most of them are) across all servers and ask them what changes need to be made or things that need to be looked at. I can see the confusion emojis already. But, they (commanders) know the issues way better than the average roamer/blobber.

[subversiontwo.7501]

4 minutes ago, AlCapwnd.7834 said:

I have an idea. ANET should reach out to all active and even non active commanders (i'm sure they know who most of them are) across all servers and ask them what changes need to be made or things that need to be looked at. I can see the confusion emojis already. But, they (commanders) know the issues way better than the average roamer/blobber.

It's pretty much what they are doing or have been doing for the past year or so. There are various focus groups, it is just not very transparent, takes place on the forum or has anything to do with the forum and is more casually ongoing than some sort of one-time survey type of thing. As far as I'm concerned, it is inferior to using your own communication platforms effectively, but it is definitely superior to their older approaches of just gauging statistics.

Edited February 24, 2022 by subversiontwo.7501

[Jski.6180]

14 minutes ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

 

What exactly are they holding hostage? It sounds more like you want to a certain thing with a certain class that it is currently not built to do, or that is not covered by the help of meta sites, and you are envious about other classes doing what you want to do. If you were more honest and open about what your actual concern is then maybe we could help you. Is there a specific class that you play but have issues finding your place in the content?

If the player base uses an effect to play there game type (support stab) it forces anet hands to make sure never to touch it (making support stab not have the cd nerf to 1 min like all self stab).

FB and scraper are the wvw game right now they are as broken as can be and we should feel bad making other ppl play them as well as playing them our self.