Dear Anet: Condi gear prices are out of control

[Bladezephyr.5714]

16 hours ago, Rasimir.6239 said:

The problem OP is trying to construct on the pretext of being concerned about new players is theoretical.

This is not a theoretical problem.  I've been discussing it with my guildmates, and I also in MightyTeapot's community, and plenty of experienced players (including Teapot himself) agree that this is a problem.  It's a problem for not only transitioning players, but also for plenty of experienced players who don't currently regularly run any of the content that gives you stat-selectable gear.  A lot of players don't like grinding the same content, so they... don't.  But, if it so happens that what they want to gear is a power build, it doesn't matter.  Because it's insanely fast and easy to gear a power build compared to anything else.

 

16 hours ago, Rasimir.6239 said:

The game really requires minimal investment to get your hands on equipment that allows you to participate in all content. It may not be the theoretical best (that you likely won't be able to get the most out of anyway due to missing player skill if you're new), but it won't stop you from playing any content you're interested in, and playing successfully.

That's technically true, but it's a garbage take. I'm currently slogging through the process of farming gear for my specter, on my specter, on a sub-par "budget" build, and the DPS is crap.  Killing anything takes forever.  It's not very fun.  I do have the option of switching to another toon and farming on that, but I DON'T WANT TO.  I was excited to play specter when the expansion hit, and that's what I want to be playing.  I just didn't have time to farm the gear ahead of time.  And the most irritating aspect of this is that if specter had a decent power build, I would have been done ON DAY 1.

[Bladezephyr.5714]

16 hours ago, GoldenPants.1870 said:

Craft the things yourself. 

How does that fix the problem, exactly?  Now instead of farming the gear, I just have to farm for the materials for the gear... which will take about as long as farming the gear.  Meanwhile, if I wanted to run a power spec, I could buy the gear right this very moment, because it's so much cheaper.  And I'll repeat this again for all the slow folks who are not getting this, "cheap" doesn't mean gold, it means the amount of time and effort you need to put into getting it.  Stat-selectable gear boxes you don't have the currency to get aren't cheap... farming them takes days or weeks for a full set for the average player.  If you had zero gold it would not take you nearly as long to farm the gold to get zerker.  And no one has zero gold because the game gives it as a reward for virtually everything.

[Depths.4051]

Rabid is very affordable and generally where I’d start if you’re a newer player going for condi. Certainly berserker gear which has been around since time immemorial, is far cheaper than a set introduced in the hardest dlc added to the game. Honestly, I would rock rabid and did use rabid until I could craft vipers on one of my condi characters in ascended. I don’t think this is terrible because if you’re newer the toughness stat isn’t necessarily wasted. You could even run rampager which is another option similar to viper if you must be a glass cannon. End game gear takes time to farm, and not all sets are even worth crafting in exotic because you’ll almost be at the ascended crafting mark by that time. I wouldn’t bother with exotic vipers and focus on the ascended set of it. Sorry you’re having trouble affording it, but perhaps you could make some concessions and go with something not so top of the line for now? 
 

ps: I’m also a spectre and started with rampager exotic and rabid jewelry until I could put some ascended on them. Hang in there champ.

Edited March 20, 2022 by Depths.4051

[Infusion.7149]

4 hours ago, Bladezephyr.5714 said:

This is not a theoretical problem.  I've been discussing it with my guildmates, and I also in MightyTeapot's community, and plenty of experienced players (including Teapot himself) agree that this is a problem.  It's a problem for not only transitioning players, but also for plenty of experienced players who don't currently regularly run any of the content that gives you stat-selectable gear.  A lot of players don't like grinding the same content, so they... don't.  But, if it so happens that what they want to gear is a power build, it doesn't matter.  Because it's insanely fast and easy to gear a power build compared to anything else.

 

That's technically true, but it's a garbage take. I'm currently slogging through the process of farming gear for my specter, on my specter, on a sub-par "budget" build, and the DPS is crap.  Killing anything takes forever.  It's not very fun.  I do have the option of switching to another toon and farming on that, but I DON'T WANT TO.  I was excited to play specter when the expansion hit, and that's what I want to be playing.  I just didn't have time to farm the gear ahead of time.  And the most irritating aspect of this is that if specter had a decent power build, I would have been done ON DAY 1.

What is "this"? condi gear or tormenting runes?
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Special:RunQuery/Equipment_query&Equipment_query[rarity]=Exotic&Equipment_query[supertype]=Armor&Equipment_query[prefix]=viper&_run


https://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Special:RunQuery/Equipment_query&Equipment_query[rarity]=Exotic&Equipment_query[supertype]=Weapon&Equipment_query[prefix]=viper&_run

[Bladezephyr.5714]

1 hour ago, Depths.4051 said:

End game gear takes time to farm

Only if you're not after power gear.  That's the whole point of this thread.  The comparable stat to zerker for condi, in terms of performance, is vipers.  The cheapest way to get a full set of berserker gear is to use karma--if you have it--to buy the armor pieces from the Temple of Grenth, and then whatever you couldn't get that way, buy the rest with gold from the TP.  And doing this actually is very reasonable. There is no comparable way to buy vipers--you can buy all the pieces on the TP but they cost 3x as much.  So you either grind gold 3x as long, or... your alternatives are pretty limited--you will need to farm it from multiple sources.  Crafting only adds to the cost, since you will need to also level at least 3 different crafting skills to 400 to craft the gear you need, so suggesting crafting is a useless suggestion; plus a lot of players simply don't want to engage with the crafting system. That leaves you with only one other option: farm stat-selectable gear from the multiple sources necessary to get all the pieces.  This is "cheap" only in terms of the fact that you don't have to spend gold to do it, but that doesn't mean it is actually cheap.  It will require far more effort than what you had to do to obtain the berserker gear, potentially including unlocking maps and doing story content to get to the point where you can get the gear... if you even own the content required.  Owning any expansion will get you access to VB, but IIRC  getting the trinkets will require LWSx maps or crafting.  The amount of effort is monumentally greater to gear the condi spec.

So, for like the 5th time, in summary: The cost (player effort) required to gear a toon in comparable condi gear to berserker requires at least 3x the effort required to buy berserker gear from the TP, regardless of what method you choose to do so, including farming stat-selectable gear.

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

What is "this"? condi gear or tormenting runes?

Seriously?

Edited March 20, 2022 by Bladezephyr.5714

[Bladezephyr.5714]

1 hour ago, Depths.4051 said:

Rabid is very affordable and generally where I’d start if you’re a newer player going for condi. Certainly berserker gear which has been around since time immemorial, is far cheaper than a set introduced in the hardest dlc added to the game.

This is exactly the problem...  Viper's was introduced 7 years ago, and by now it is well established as the equivalent of berserker for condi.  So why should it remain 3x as expensive?  That may have made some sense, when it was new, but that's ancient history.  This literally just makes it 3x as hard for players wanting to play a condi DPS spec to put up the same kinds of numbers as anyone who chose a power build instead.  And as I just pointed out, it may well be more than that for many players, who don't have crafting skills, or the LWSx episodes required to get at the sources of the gear, etc..  Having to do all that content first... it's the sort of thing that plenty of players would quit over.  And I know some that have... and I bet you probably do too.

[Infusion.7149]

It only became more expensive due to lazy people after EOD expansion , after May 2021 patch that made exposed prefer condis greatly the price per Black Diamond merely jumped to 20 silvers not 90 silvers+. Ritualist gear is available in EOD so firebrand 85% condi DPS, renegade 83% condi DPS, mirage 89% condi DPS, harbinger 86% condi DPS, scourge 90%+ condi DPS, and specter 85% condi DPS all don't lose as much if using it for armor and neither does any build not relying on crits and most of those can make use of boon duration. Willbender can be run with grieving. FA hybrid weaver uses grieving where the 22 silvers Intact Mosaic is an ingredient instead of jewels ; grieving tempest with balthazar or flame legion rune is also possible. Mechanist cDPS may be viper's but the condi alac build uses ritualist as well. In summary only ranger cDPS suffers from this "problem" to the extent you imply and untamed is pretty bad even in meta gear ; condi berserker needs crits and renegade runes so that's the main one that suffers in reality and you could probably run grieving + balth runes if you really wanted to. That covers:

• guardian
• revenant
• warrior
• ranger
• thief
• engineer
• mesmer
• necromancer
• elementalist

= 9 classes

I don't think you've had to gear characters with minstrel's before in WVW with 3g/hour as a "farm". It is far worse than 5g per insignia/inscription that viper's is now. It was 8 gold EACH per pearl.

Your facts are off:
1. torment rune is not meta for the vast majority of specs
2. viper's isn't massively more than another condi attribute that isn't berserker's , for example carrion costs 5.7g to craft or 8g instabuy per insignia versus 7.6g for viper's (3.75g for carrion versus 5.6g per viper inscription). Your comparison is to berserker's loot drops.
3. It's not 75% of DPS to run ritualist gear , it's 75% of full DPS to run ritualist gear with boon traits and an alacrity build
3a. every EOD spec gets a free piece of stat select armor and the profession weapon just for unlocking it.

4. The loot drops analogous to berserker's such as Shiro/Errol's are below 1g. If you compare Berserker's emblazoned coat for example it isn't less to purchase than rampager's and carrion.

5. Grieving is super cheap and if you have a way (i.e. balthazar rune or +15% condition food) to hit condition duration is an option without toughness, similar to carrion.

I'm not sure what you expect Arenanet to do as Viper's is explicitly an HoT stat-set and anything added would need to be stat-select to get around the expansion lock limitation. It (crafted viper's) is not using pearls which were massively harder to obtain , it is based off black diamonds. The only thing they can do beyond providing stat select boxes for weapons/armor is to make exotics with viper's stats which are already existent (see linked viper's stat gear such as adventurer's mantle , bladed gear boxes, Blood Legion soldier's helm, Charr War mask, Ebon vanguard shoulders,  lunatic court gear, etc). The raid and strike vendor already has stat select boxes in bulk , so it is not something that warrants "it must be crafted". If you aren't doing fractals/raids/strikes losing <15% DPS by using ritualist armor isn't the end of the world especially if you run a build that puts out boons. An extra 2g or so versus carrion for a weapon isn't a massive amount and mist trinkets are all stat select.

If your point was that tormenting runes ought to have a more reliable source other than PSNA maybe I'd agree.

Edited March 21, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[mythical.6315]

23 hours ago, Bladezephyr.5714 said:

No, it absolutely does not!  Because you get gold for doing pretty much everything in the game, and because zerker is so cheap, it's still way faster and less effort to buy zerker with gold than to farm a full set of stat-selectable gear by any method possible in the game.

You're wrong.  Lunatic armor sets are relatively comparable for those that have unlocked the recipes.

• Berserker's Exalted Armor Set (Light) - 41.12G
• Berserker's Emblazoned Armor Set (Medium) - 45.15G
• Berserker's Draconic Armor Set (Heavy) - 40.20G

 

• Lunatic Templar Armor Set (Heavy) - 34.96G
• Lunatic Noble's Armor Set (Medium) - 38.70G
• Lunatic Acolyte Armor Set (Light) - 35.66G

Edited March 21, 2022 by mythical.6315

[TheWaternymphHC.1847]

24 minutes ago, mythical.6315 said:

• Berserker's Draconic Armor Set (Heavy) - 40.20G

• Lunatic Templar Armor Set (Heavy) - 34.96G

The issue isn't the crafted Berserker's gear. The issue is that Berserker's gear drops left, right and center. Depending on armor class and slot it basically sells for the salvage value of the exotics. 

I think that's the reason why this thread is going around in circles. The OP complains pretty much about two things:

• certain runes (& sigils) are way to expensive, mostly affecting condi builds negatively, which many other posters seem to agree, even if they doubt the importance of Tormenting runes in his example build
• there are tons of cheap Berserker's exotics in the economy, but basically no affordable Viper's exotics; It's so bad that you can almost ignore crafting regular exotic Viper's and just pay a bit more and craft yourself the ascended version instead.

If Anet wanted to address this in any way or shape, they either have to sharply reduce direct drops of (named) exotics with Berserker's stats to increase the price to a level where crafted gear becomes cheaper than random drops, or add some named exotics with Viper's stats to the game to force the price below the cost of the crafted exotics. In both cases it's lose-lose for Anet.

[mythical.6315]

2 hours ago, TheWaternymphHC.1847 said:

The issue isn't the crafted Berserker's gear. The issue is that Berserker's gear drops left, right and center. Depending on armor class and slot it basically sells for the salvage value of the exotics. 

I think that's the reason why this thread is going around in circles. The OP complains pretty much about two things:

• certain runes (& sigils) are way to expensive, mostly affecting condi builds negatively, which many other posters seem to agree, even if they doubt the importance of Tormenting runes in his example build
• there are tons of cheap Berserker's exotics in the economy, but basically no affordable Viper's exotics; It's so bad that you can almost ignore crafting regular exotic Viper's and just pay a bit more and craft yourself the ascended version instead.

If Anet wanted to address this in any way or shape, they either have to sharply reduce direct drops of (named) exotics with Berserker's stats to increase the price to a level where crafted gear becomes cheaper than random drops, or add some named exotics with Viper's stats to the game to force the price below the cost of the crafted exotics. In both cases it's lose-lose for Anet.

 

Read the post that I quoted as it provides important context.  They said that it was cheaper to buy berserker with gold than to farm a set of stat-selectable gear by any method in the game.  I proved them wrong.

[ardhikaizecson.3697]

Gradually add ascended viper gear and do low tier fractals that can be done in exotic (level 1-20) to gradually accumulate relic and infusions until you can progress further, in no time you will be accumulating ascended boxes, trinkets and fractal relics and you will be drowned in them and no longer have to cost an arm and leg just to gear up another character, it's what I did back in the day.

[Shiyo.3578]

This has been an issue since HoT. Support/healers are also much more expensive and time consuming to gear, when that's ALWAYS a rare role in games. It makes no sense.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Meaty_Asparagus_Skewer

Use this and nightmare runes. Tormenting runes are stupid, LS1 mats should be deleted from the game and LS1 recipes should be readjusted to use mats that ACTUALLY exist in GW2.

Edited March 21, 2022 by Shiyo.3578

[TheWaternymphHC.1847]

4 hours ago, mythical.6315 said:

Read the post that I quoted as it provides important context.  They said that it was cheaper to buy berserker with gold than to farm a set of stat-selectable gear by any method in the game.  I proved them wrong.

I'm fully aware about the context of your post. However I was mostly referring to the OP who basically rejects crafting any stat-selectable gear in this whole thread, because he seems to want any Viper's gear in the same price range as random dropped Berserker's. I probably should have added the price of dropped Berserker's as comparison in my post to make that more clear.

[GoldenPants.1870]

On 3/20/2022 at 2:44 AM, Bladezephyr.5714 said:

How does that fix the problem, exactly? 

Because that would give you 0 cost condi gear.

[Ashgar.3024]

On 3/16/2022 at 6:57 PM, Bladezephyr.5714 said:

I just did the math on typical "top shelf" exotic power gear (zerker & scholar runes) vs. condi (viper's & torment runes).  I chose those because they're each the gear required/expected for the highest damage specs in the game, for power and condi, give or take specific specs' idiosyncrasies and players' play styles.  This is the gear, typically, you buy, or are recommended to buy, to do "good" DPS for your spec.  I used medium gear, since that's what I'm currently focused on gearing, and included a full set of armor, trinkets, and runes (x7) for both.  I used the sell price since it was the fastest/easiest, and while the buy price will be lower, the difference is still representative.

 

It will come as no surprise to players who've geared a condi/torment build what the results are.  Runes of tormenting are currently selling for over 14g each, which by themselves is more expensive than the entire power kit by almost a factor of two.  The total price for zerker gear was 56g 7s 39cp, whereas the viper's gear is 261g 5s 64cp, almost FIVE TIMES more expensive.  I'm sure some will point out that viper's is 4-stat expansion-era gear, whereas zerker is 3-stat core gear, but the problem is there is no core stat that completes the condi picture with both condi damage and expertise.  Another part of the problem is that torment is of late just better than everything else, and many/most of the elite specs' condi builds favor it, while tormenting runes are relatively difficult to acquire--and expensive to make.  All this would be fine if all of the elite specs had viable/competetive power builds, but many of them just don't.

 

So, Anet, aside from locking poorer players out of effectively playing and enjoying these specs, what exactly is the point of this?  It seems to me some adjustments are badly needed here.

 

 

Its just supply and demand, Condi is overhyped in PvE, every raid guide recommends condi builds. Same in Strikes and Fractals so people flocks to it and the demand for it skyrocket.

 

Same with tormenting runes. There's viable alternatives that cost silvers but you know, big internet man said to use these so you have to right?

[ArchonWing.9480]

That is the real cost of being a meta slave.

Also are they really best damage? Or nightmare just isn't?

Edited March 21, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Ruisen.9471]

Condi gear has always been expensive, afaik.   They're alot cheaper now then they used to be.   Its one of the reasons i stick to power builds on all my chars, because buildcrafting with condi would just cost too much.

 

Power gear is artificially cheap because there are alot of sources in open world where they just drop.   It makes no sense to craft power gear.   It would be nice if the materials to craft was dropped in more places, instead of them just making condi gear drop like power gear, because that would make crafting exotics pretty much pointless.

 

 

On 3/17/2022 at 6:09 AM, Sahne.6950 said:

okey then let me ask you one question.

are they manually changing prices of the Auctionhouse with a specific goal in mind?

if the answer is no we are having a free market here.

They are managing aquisition of materials to not deflate prices of those. But that doesnt interfere with the idea of a free market.

The players dictate the prices with their offers.

The Anet staff is only dictation how many of these items there are, but the price of the item is totally on the playerside.

You're setting up a dumb straw man to attack, and you know this.    Condi gear is expensive because the materials are expensive. They can directly add more sources of these materials to events or just increase the number dropped, which would make it cheaper to craft and cheaper to sell.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Ruisen.9471

[Khisanth.2948]

34 minutes ago, Ruisen.9471 said:

Condi gear has always been expensive, afaik.   They're alot cheaper now then they used to be.   Its one of the reasons i stick to power builds on all my chars, because buildcrafting with condi would just cost too much.

 

Power gear is artificially cheap because there are alot of sources in open world where they just drop.   It makes no sense to craft power gear.   It would be nice if the materials to craft was dropped in more places, instead of them just making condi gear drop like power gear, because that would make crafting exotics pretty much pointless.

 

 

You're setting up a dumb straw man to attack, and you know this.    Condi gear is expensive because the materials are expensive. They can directly add more sources of these materials to events, which would make it cheaper to craft and cheaper to sell.

Which materials are you referring? People complain about the materials being too expensive but they are apparently not expensive enough to convince people to go gather them.

Black Diamonds for viper's are already based on doing events.

Watchwork Sprockets can be obtained with gathering tools. Also doing events via map bonus but that is probably not a good source.

[TheWaternymphHC.1847]

1 hour ago, Khisanth.2948 said:

Which materials are you referring? People complain about the materials being too expensive but they are apparently not expensive enough to convince people to go gather them.

He is most likely either referring to Fulgurite which is used for ascended Viper's gear. Since it requires farming account-bound materials that drop from specific HoT zones only, it's quite annoying to get in larger quantities unless you repeatedly run the metas.

Or refers to Flax/Vials of Linseed Oil for exotic Viper's gear, which is relatively cheap but still requires a fair amount of additional materials compared to crafted Berserker's gear.

[mythical.6315]

1 hour ago, TheWaternymphHC.1847 said:

He is most likely either referring to Fulgurite which is used for ascended Viper's gear. Since it requires farming account-bound materials that drop from specific HoT zones only, it's quite annoying to get in larger quantities unless you repeatedly run the metas.

Or refers to Flax/Vials of Linseed Oil for exotic Viper's gear, which is relatively cheap but still requires a fair amount of additional materials compared to crafted Berserker's gear.

Anyone going for ascended vipers should just craft berserkers and then change the stats in the MF. 

[TheWaternymphHC.1847]

45 minutes ago, mythical.6315 said:

Anyone going for ascended vipers should just craft berserkers and then change the stats in the MF. 

That's correct and thanks for the reminder to the folks in the thread. I should have mentioned it on my post. Although one would actually not craft Berserker's to start with, but something dirt cheap like ascended Dire or Shaman's gear and convert that to Viper's. This should save additional gold since the exotic insignias for these sell for ~30s on the TP compared to the few golds worth of materials required for the Berserker's exotic one.

However, I was mainly referring to the confused posters above my actually quoted one, who were talking about expensive gathered materials for condi gear and the need/opportunity to farm it. Too be honest, I have no idea why people care and complain so much about crafted exotics in this thread... If one wants to craft stuff, one would most likely go for ascended anyway instead of wasting materials on exotics. 

Edited March 24, 2022 by TheWaternymphHC.1847
clarification

[Stx.4857]

Solution?  Make a 3 stat armor set that is main stat condition damage, and minor stat expertise and either precision or power.  And make it easy to craft.

 

4 stat armors are all more expensive than 3 

[mythical.6315]

Lunar armor sets are slightly cheaper than berserker exotic armor and you can select their stats which include vipers. Just craft those if you have the recipes. 

[TheWaternymphHC.1847]

On 3/17/2022 at 2:34 AM, TheWaternymphHC.1847 said:

If you have the Lunatic armor recipes from the Halloween vendor, you can craft stat-selectable exotic gear that is account-bound for a couple of gold each.

 

3 minutes ago, mythical.6315 said:

Lunar armor sets are slightly cheaper than berserker exotic armor and you can select their stats which include vipers. Just craft those if you have the recipes. 

Been there already 

10 minutes ago, Stx.4857 said:

Solution?  Make a 3 stat armor set that is main stat condition damage, and minor stat expertise and either precision or power.  And make it easy to craft.

The problem isn't the crafted exotic armor per se.

The problem is that random (named) armor drops are so plenty for Bererker's and non-existent for Viper's or Sinister that Berserker's can be bought for its salvage value on the TP which is cheaper than the mats for almost any crafted exotics.

[Stx.4857]

I agree with you, I'm just saying part of the issue isn't that it's power vs Condi gear, it's that vipers is 4 stat armor..  all 4 stat armor is expensive, power stuff too.