2022 we still got trapper runes in spvp

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

Tittle.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

is it still a problem or did people stop complaining about it ya think.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

Definitely still a problem.

 

Slap a 20s CD on it and it would both be balanced and STILL more generous than something like rune of resistance which gives 4s resistance on 45s cd.

Edited March 19, 2022 by CalmTheStorm.2364

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

8 minutes ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

is it still a problem or did people stop complaining about it ya think.

No idea but 3 seconds of stealth and superspeed is not fun to play against.
Not to mention most other "fun" runes either got removed or reworked but this is still here.

Edited March 19, 2022 by Vasdamas Anklast.1607

[Zekent.3652]

Trapper runes eclipses willbender a lot on guardian builds.

[Fueki.4753]

Catalyst doesn't get a smoke field because Elementalist shouldn't have access to Stealth (they said so on a live stream), yet it's completely fine for Dragonhunter to have stealth via this rune.

Arenanet is fine showing their obvious biases towards different professions.

1 hour ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

is it still a problem or did people stop complaining about it ya think.

It still is a problem. Stealth in its current form will always be a problem.

Most people just gave up complaining, because Arenanet keeps up that absolute unwillingness to change things for the better.

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

11 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Catalyst doesn't get a smoke field because Elementalist shouldn't have access to Stealth (they said so on a live stream), yet it's completely fine for Dragonhunter to have stealth via this rune.

Arenanet is fine showing their obvious biases towards different professions.

It still is a problem. Stealth in its current form will always be a problem.

Most people just gave up complaining, because Arenanet keeps up that absolute unwillingness to change things for the better.

Ye, Eles is yet another class I've noticed Anet tends to have extreme prejudice towards. Like they kept nerfing Tempest but let Druid tanking bs with stealth be for year and even buffed it a couple of times instead.

Edited March 20, 2022 by Vasdamas Anklast.1607

[Sylvia.4870]

20 hours ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

is it still a problem or did people stop complaining about it ya think.

         Had I not known the Dragonhunter's traps were as same as the Ranger's ones while they were using the Runes, I would have been too scared to fight any of them.

[Revalent.4205]

Agree.  They are not very effective, but very annoing 

[Bazsi.2734]

On 3/19/2022 at 5:05 PM, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

is it still a problem or did people stop complaining about it ya think.

Why not both?

[Abyssisis.3971]

I still enjoy using them lol

[jsp.6912]

i would like they rework it like idk

 

rune of trapper only give superspped and an other rune give stealth like rune of dragonhunter who is completely useless

[chokela.4823]

And kill 3 okay builds for even less diversity

[Mik.3401]

31 minutes ago, chokela.4823 said:

And kill 3 okay builds for even less diversity

In an ideal world that should  come with a nice balance and polish to the new specs but this is anet we are talking about. I’ve used up like 99% of my trust towards them already ha

[Khalisto.5780]

On 3/19/2022 at 2:43 PM, Fueki.4753 said:

Catalyst doesn't get a smoke field because Elementalist shouldn't have access to Stealth (they said so on a live stream), yet it's completely fine for Dragonhunter to have stealth via this rune.

Arenanet is fine showing their obvious biases towards different professions.

It still is a problem. Stealth in its current form will always be a problem.

Most people just gave up complaining, because Arenanet keeps up that absolute unwillingness to change things for the better.

yes, before they even said that i could already imagine how long would last a FA elementalist bursting ppl outta stealth

[Kuma.1503]

Trapper builds are extremely annoying to fight, but I'm still not convinced they're broken. 

Infuriating, yes. Especailly druid varients, but it's also easy enough to survive vs them if you're paying attention. 

Stealth in general could use a rework though. 

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

9 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Trapper builds are extremely annoying to fight, but I'm still not convinced they're broken. 

Infuriating, yes. Especailly druid varients, but it's also easy enough to survive vs them if you're paying attention. 

Stealth in general could use a rework though. 

If Trapper Runes are NOT broken, then most other runes are severely undertuned. 3s of Stealth AND superspeed with any trap utility, heal, or elite skill with NO CD? Compare that to rune of resistance, rune of the forge, rune of the pack.... literally just about any other rune. It's ridiculous to me that this has been overlooked for so long.

[Kuma.1503]

6 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

If Trapper Runes are NOT broken, then most other runes are severely undertuned. 3s of Stealth AND superspeed with any trap utility, heal, or elite skill with NO CD? Compare that to rune of resistance, rune of the forge, rune of the pack.... literally just about any other rune. It's ridiculous to me that this has been overlooked for so long.

You've misread what I said. 

Trapper builds aren't broken. Incredibly infuriating to fight due to how stealth is designed as a mechanic, yes. But they aren't without counterplay. If we're talking pure winrates, there are worse things to run into that give you a statistically higher chance of losing. 

The runes themselves are very powerful, but there's more to a build than a rune. If the build's been nerfed around it, that needs to be taken into account. 

[Rider.6024]

ss or stealth nor both, and tbh stealth is a garbage mechanic with current uptime possibilities so just make is ss only for the love of kitten

 

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

36 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

You've misread what I said. 

Trapper builds aren't broken. Incredibly infuriating to fight due to how stealth is designed as a mechanic, yes. But they aren't without counterplay. If we're talking pure winrates, there are worse things to run into that give you a statistically higher chance of losing. 

The runes themselves are very powerful, but there's more to a build than a rune. If the build's been nerfed around it, that needs to be taken into account. 

I hear what you're saying and I appreciate the distinction. However, the problem is that those builds exploit a broken mechanic (trapper rune) to make low CD offensive skills (traps) double as defensive ones (via stealth and mobility)--with no trade off. Defending builds that abuse broken mechanics is not in the best interest of the competitive game modes.

[chokela.4823]

So we are all going to loop between the only 4 decent builds after all those nerves asking ???

[Kuma.1503]

9 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

I hear what you're saying and I appreciate the distinction. However, the problem is that those builds exploit a broken mechanic (trapper rune) to make low CD offensive skills (traps) double as defensive ones (via stealth and mobility)--with no trade off. Defending builds that abuse broken mechanics is not in the best interest of the competitive game modes.

I still believe the inherent design flaw is the current design of stealth. But assuming that doesn't change, a more appropriate 6th bonus would be immobilize on trap activation, as it would fit in with the theme of a trapper. 

I generally try to avoid statements like "does X with no trade-off" because it ends up being hyperbole more often than not. 

Trap builds, more often than not, lack defense because traps are offensive utilities, and they're used offensively rather than defensively more often than not. 

Using Ranger as an example, slotting Flame Trap + Viper's Nest comes at the cost of 2 stunbreaks and 6 condi cleanse. Ranger stunbreaks have been complained about in the past due to how strong/low CD they are, I'd say giving them up is a good opportunity cost. 

In DH's case, you're running a rune with Condi Damage on a power build. It's not entirely useless thanks to the passive burns, but you'd really rather have a rune with Ferocity or Precision on it instead. 

In the end, even asuming your conclusion is correct. I don't agree with the thought process that led to it. I hate fighting trapper bulds with a burning passion, but I try not to let that get in the way of objectivity. 

Edited March 22, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

34 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

I still believe the inherent design flaw is the current design of stealth. But assuming that doesn't change, a more appropriate 6th bonus would be immobilize on trap activation, as it would fit in with the theme of a trapper. 

I generally try to avoid statements like "does X with no trade-off" because it ends up being hyperbole more often than not. 

Trap builds, more often than not, lack defense because traps are offensive utilities, and they're used offensively rather than defensively more often than not. 

Using Ranger as an example, slotting Flame Trap + Viper's Nest comes at the cost of 2 stunbreaks and 6 condi cleanse. Ranger stunbreaks have been complained about in the past due to how strong/low CD they are, I'd say giving them up is a good opportunity cost. 

In DH's case, you're running a rune with Condi Damage on a power build. It's not entirely useless thanks to the passive burns, but you'd really rather have a rune with Ferocity or Precision on it instead. 

In the end, even asuming your conclusion is correct. I don't agree with the thought process that led to it. I hate fighting trapper bulds with a burning passion, but I try not to let that get in the way of objectivity. 

By "no trade off," I mean that you are getting an offensive AND defensive CD at the same time.  You've undoubtedly seen a trapper DH or ranger drop 3 traps in a row, not to damage you, but to get 9s of stealth and superspeed.  15-25s later, they have all those CDs available again.  

 

In just about every other instance, a CD is either offensive or defensive.  Sticking with ranger, I can put Protect Me, Lightning Reflexes, and Quickening zephyr all on my utility bar, but then I give up Sic 'Em, flame trap, or some other offensive utility.  The more defense I take, the less offense I have.  The more offensive utilities I take, the less defense I have.  Not so with trapper builds; each trap can be used for both offense or defense.  And while it's true that none of the traps are stun breaks (thank God), trapper builds can get away with this more effectively than other builds because they can just vanish into stealth for long intervals and superspeed to safety.  

 

You're not wrong to say that there is some opportunity cost in running trapper rune, but the benefits far outweigh the costs; hence, imbalance.  What I've been trying to articulate is that Trapper Rune, by allowing low-CD offensive CDs to double as defensive CDs, is objectively (since you mention objectivity) bad balance philosophy.  It would be ok to have this effect on a sizeable CD (my original suggestion), but not available one EVERY heal/utility/elite trap with NO CD.  That's just wildly --and objectively--out of step with every other effect-granting rune.  

[Aza.2105]

DH traps weren't nearly as much of an issue when the game had the retaliation boon. It prevented DH from mindlessly trap spamming on top of the point. But when retaliation was removed the beast was released and here we are. My suggestion would be to keep trapper rune and reintroduce retaliation. It kept a lot of spam in check.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Aza.2105

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Trapper runes are fine, in fact they should be purchasable on tp for those that hate crafting or don't want to farm wvw for months.