What are power Virtuoso's winning matchups?

[Za Shaloc.3908]

I've been playing power Virtuoso pretty hardcore since EoD dropped and have spent a lot of that time dueling. And during that time dueling, I have spent a lot of time losing. I know I am far from being a skilled Mesmer player so I don't think I have the best perception of how I should fare in certain matchups, ans I'm having trouble figuring out which ones I should be winning. For reference I have only spent time in WvW, but I'm curious about PvP too.

 

My experience so far is that the power Rangers I have fought feel easier. I have been running Dom/Illu, so struggle against most Cele and TB builds. Thieves still totally bully me. The EoD spec I have struggled with the most has been by far the Bladesworn, which against decent players has generally ended with me being completely destroyed by them. In your experiences so far, are there any specs that pVirt soft or hard counters? 

[Salt Mode.3780]

Anything that can move behind you, CC you while you are shattering, and unblockables. Aegis trait combo gets completely countered by unblockables.

[Ombras.2853]

If we are talking specifically about WvW, with my build I can say that on skill parity:

- You’re a dog to Thieves, more than playing core, and I mean a real dog

- Harbinger is annoying for several reasons, tho not terrible

- Rangers are okaysh, depends on both players configuration

- You kind of trash Warriors, Guardians, high sustain low damage specs

- Vindicator is tricky, but you should be favorable

 

[Salt Mode.3780]

7 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

If we are talking specifically about WvW, with my build I can say that on skill parity:

- You’re a dog to Thieves, more than playing core, and I mean a real dog

- Harbinger is annoying for several reasons, tho not terrible

- Rangers are okaysh, depends on both players configuration

- You kind of trash Warriors, Guardians, high sustain low damage specs

- Vindicator is tricky, but you should be favorable

 

Have you fought a shouts build warrior? Or celestial guardians? Those are unfavorable matchups. Only class you are somewhat favorable is Ele but that is because they are in such bad shape as we are even then if a good fire weaver catches u, u r pretty much dead.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Puck.3697]

As a virtuoso. You have no winning match ups. Virtuoso is currently outclassed by everything sadly.

Effectively your only winning by being better the enemy at this point in time. 

[Ombras.2853]

This forum is way too salty about Virtuoso.

[Veprovina.4876]

9 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

This forum is way too salty about Virtuoso.

Not at all, i love killing Virtuosos in WvW! 😉 

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

That's a tricky question. Some favourable match ups: ogres, harpies, frogs and camp veterans. 

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

Willbender

[Tseison.4659]

4 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

As a virtuoso. You have no winning match ups. Virtuoso is currently outclassed by everything sadly.

Effectively your only winning by being better the enemy at this point in time. 

Hard agreeing with this because sadly, with Bladesongs being able to be sidestepped, and with no distortion on F4 (I’m not taking it as a utility when it should’ve been on F4 to begin with) a Virtuoso just can’t match up to anything in PvP/WvW and this is against a good player who knows their class + elites like it’s second nature. Yeah you might win against someone not expecting the ambush on them or someone whose not good at pvp at all, but that’s about as far as it’ll go lol.

[Puck.3697]

3 hours ago, Ombras.2853 said:

This forum is way too salty about Virtuoso.

Salty? No ones salty. 

Dissapointed ofcourse. Alike anyone would be that got a severely underperforming elite. 

Theres a difference between being salty, and stating honest facts in afraid, I ain't mad at the situation. It's just the verdict on the elite. 

 

[Yoci.2481]

Rats

The Golem

That's about it.

[Mik.3401]

Golem

[Za Shaloc.3908]

😂 These answers are killin' me. Thanks guys.

[phokus.8934]

26 minutes ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

😂 These answers are killin' me. Thanks guys.

It's kind of a meme but it's really true.  Up against an equally skilled non-WillyBender you're going to most likely lose.

[mortrialus.3062]

14 hours ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

I've been playing power Virtuoso pretty hardcore since EoD dropped and have spent a lot of that time dueling. And during that time dueling, I have spent a lot of time losing. I know I am far from being a skilled Mesmer player so I don't think I have the best perception of how I should fare in certain matchups, ans I'm having trouble figuring out which ones I should be winning. For reference I have only spent time in WvW, but I'm curious about PvP too.

 

My experience so far is that the power Rangers I have fought feel easier. I have been running Dom/Illu, so struggle against most Cele and TB builds. Thieves still totally bully me. The EoD spec I have struggled with the most has been by far the Bladesworn, which against decent players has generally ended with me being completely destroyed by them. In your experiences so far, are there any specs that pVirt soft or hard counters? 

The fact of the matter is that Virtuoso's design doesn't have the tools to be effective in PvP and it doesn't hard counter or excel at anything. 

It's a ranged build that is about as squishy and defenseless as you can possibly be in this game. And it isn't allowed to do great damage with how the damage numbers are split and it has basically no options or answers for when up against an actual player.

You can start with the fact that core mesmer is already not excellent in PvP, certainly SPvP and is one of the weakest classes in the game.  And the Bladesongs are all straight downgrades to the core shatters with extreme usability nerfs. You can argue that ranged makes the F1+F2 valuable.  But under PvP damage splits a 5 blade F1 does less damage than a core F1 with one clone and self shatter. 

IOn Virtuoso the F1 will maybe crit for around 7k.   To give you a comparison of what you're actually competing with in competitive modes, a meta Dragon Hunter can F1 to tether and then True shot and it has the same wind up as the Virt F1 for 10k+ damage and less cooldown and with a projectile that is faster and harder to side step.

And the F3+F4 are just unambiguously massive down sides to the core shatters with literally no upsides. 

 

Next up is that dagger just doesn't have the tools or quality of life to be a ranged weapon, and all of our offhand choices really only get up like a 1/3 of the quality of life other ranged weapon kits that actually see use have.  

You have 

1.  Projectile, slow speed mediocre damage without the flurry proc and the flurry proc fails a lot in PvP when it makes no sense. No other quality of life.

2.  A shot gun projectile that requires you to detarget your enemy, jerk the camera at their feet, get into point blank range on a melee build, and then fire the attack and position yourself to get decent damage out of it.  No other quality of life.

3.  A slow moving projectile that shoots projectiles, not only can it be destroyed by projectile destruction and reflected, but if the main projectile hits someone with aegis it destroys the main projectile.   No other quality of life.

Compare this to a longrange weapon that sees tons and tons of use in PvP

 

Ranger Longbow

1.  High Velocity Projectile

2.  Main damage skill, high velocity good at any range.

3.  Stealth to escape a target that gets close.

4.  Knockback to push a close target away.

5.  A long range AOE cripple that is ground targeted, applies cripple to keep targets away, and can rack up 10k damage.

And you can go through like DH longbow, or Deadeye Rifle.  These are also just better designed kits that actually have tools and win conditions.

Dagger has no way to slow down enemies trying to close the gap on you, and it has no answers for when they do.  It has no options for when fights get projectile heavy.  And no choice of off hand rounds out dagger the way Ranger Longbow is actually well designed and well rounded. 

 

The only thing Virtuoso really accomplishes is that you've made yourself even more hard countered by thieves in PvP, as now you can't F3 to interrupt them when they jump you and instead of having distortion and invulnerability when you F4 they'll just immediately and unblockably Swipe and interrupt your block.

Early on during the start of Path of Fire, Fresh Air Weaver with scepter was not a *great* build but it saw some use and skilled players did well and had a lot of fun with it in ranked.  Virtuoso is like that old fresh air weaver build except you don't have good access to invulnerability, you have no swiftness or super speed, you can't slow down enemies with cripple and chill, and also you can't kill anyone with your burst.  Oh it and also had a way better healing skill one a far lower cooldown.

Virtuoso just doesn't have the tools to be successful in PvP.

Edited March 22, 2022 by mortrialus.3062

[Veprovina.4876]

4 hours ago, phokus.8934 said:

It's kind of a meme but it's really true.  Up against an equally skilled non-WillyBender you're going to most likely lose.

Even if you're fighting less skilled players. 

Like, the elite and bladesongs are so narrow that most people dodge them by accident. They're always moving anway, and as you cast the bladesong, unless you're right in their face, most will miss. 

Not to mention other Virtuoso utilites, the only one worth taking is the one that restockes your blades and gives distortion. Others are so badly and obviously telegraphed that they can't even force a dodge out of someone. 

[Puck.3697]

1 hour ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

Virtuoso just doesn't have the tools to be successful in PvP.

tbh i Dont think it'd take alot to get virtuoso Working in SPVP, it does have some tools. it has Access to really good blocks, and Ironically can make quite the condi sustain build realistically,  the issue is, the specc seems almost Manufactored Intentionally to make it not work in SPVP.

Enforcing Projectiles onto All F1-F5 abilities is Almost madness considering how much access to projectile hate exists in the game, LB Ranger kinda Proves why Projectiles fall off in SPVP and WvWvW Enviroments.

Its healing ability needs Changing to not require a Target. Just allow the thrown Daggers to Lock onto a Enemy Automatically without targetting and tbh it could be a Really Nice heal. also remove the cast

Psychoic Force could be a Strong Ability... if they didnt try to make a Densive ability carry Offensive boons?, imho i think it needs to apply Stability and Protection instead of Fury and Might. i think the utilities need alot of Fixing up really.

F1 needs to do more damage, i see some good Results from F2 it also seems easier to land comparitively. but F1 just isnt strong enough realistically, it needs to do more Damage.

Dagger is Extreme underwhelming, but i can tolerate that if u can get the specc atleast working with the strong PvP Weapons We do have, given Sceptar syngerises Really well with the Blade Stocking, and Staff is a good option for Condi based Virtuoso builds.

virtuoso has Potiental. it could have Potiental atleast, but yes its More a Issue of the factor it seems they intentionally implemented things that actively Destroy that potiental, its Almost as if they intentionally made it bad in SPVP Rather then its Design just not being functional in Competitive Enviroments.

1 hour ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

The only thing Virtuoso really accomplishes is that you've made yourself even more hard countered by thieves in PvP, as now you can't F3 to interrupt them when they jump you and instead of having distortion and invulnerability when you F4 they'll just immediately and unblockably Swipe and interrupt your block.

F3 is still a Interupt, i think the problem is Stocking 5 blades Takes Longer then 3 clones, The game Just provides you with ALOT more options in terms of getting clones up then blades Sadly. so wasting your 5 blades to interupt Quite litterally deletes ur Damage output to take any real advantafge of it.

IMHO i think a good Fix maybe to consider Removing the Blade usuage off F3.

Have F1 and F2 Use the blade System.

F3 and F4 Remove them off the blade System, so they can be Used as Normal CDs, Give F3 a a 3 Second Daze. and F4 Applies a Heal upon usuage. given virtuosos State i dont think we need a trade off for this either realistically.

The fact blades do less damage then Shatters ontop of this their slower generated also and we have Less access to being able to 100% Shatter then core due to the fact we cant press 2 buttons and insta summon full bar is already the trade off.

Now will Anet do this? Likely not. but you know... it'd help if they would.

 

Edited March 22, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Levetty.1279]

Should see the damage numbers I can pull off attacking ambient Frogs.

[mortrialus.3062]

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

tbh i Dont think it'd take alot to get virtuoso Working in SPVP, it does have some tools. it has Access to really good blocks, and Ironically can make quite the condi sustain build realistically,  the issue is, the specc seems almost Manufactored Intentionally to make it not work in SPVP.

My quick and dirty prescription to getting Virtuoso up and running in PvP

1.  Dagger 2 needs to be good damage at any range and not only when used as a point blank shot gun. 

2.  Dagger 2 should flip over into a skill that retreats the mesmer away from the target.  Like a 600 unit snake dodge away on a 10 second cooldown.  Unlike other ranged kits, dagger has no answer for when an opponent closes the gap.

3.  Dagger 3 should be a ground targeted AoE that you can place wherever you want in line of sight at 1200 range.  It should also apply either cripple or chill to trap people in it and help keep enemies away from the virtuoso like other professions have on their ranged kits.  Virtuoso doesn't need a ton of unblockable.  It needs to have actual alternatives for when fights get projectile hate heavy.  Also the fact that if it hits someone with Aegis it kills the whole spell is a joke.

Dagger 2 and 3 both need added functionality to give them the quality of life as other profession's ranged weapons.  Off hand dagger alone can't fix this.

4.  F1 needs to do more damage in SPvP and should go down to 0.5s cast time. 

5.  F2 should be a ground targeted AoE.  Virtuoso doesn't need a ton of unblockable.  It needs to have actual alternatives for when fights get projectile hate heavy. 

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

F3 is still a Interupt, i think the problem is Stocking 5 blades Takes Longer then 3 clones, The game Just provides you with ALOT more options in terms of getting clones up then blades Sadly. so wasting your 5 blades to interupt Quite litterally deletes ur Damage output to take any real advantafge of it.

6.  The F3 is one of the worst things about Virtuoso and just an unambiguous massive massive pure downgrade from the core F3. F3 is completely unusable in it's current form, a cast time with a slow moving projectile means it can never be used as a proper interrupt offensively or defensively.  An enemy jumps you and their in melee and they're about to cast a huge damage attack on you, you could always F3 and immediately interrupt it to regain control over the situation.  You can't on Virtuoso.

It should either be instant cast with very, very fast travel time like Thief's Headshot or Magic Bullet, or it should be something completely different like fear or a stun with the duration increasing based on blades if they keep the cast time.

7.  F4 is an insane downgrade from Distortion but it could almost work if it was a stunbreak and if the damage was massively increased.  Running onto a Virtuoso who has full blades and pops the F4 should be like running onto a Dragon Hunter's Procession of Blades trap in that it is very threatening and potentially lethal unless you immediately back off.  

8.  F1-F3 should maybe not require facing the target.

9.  The healing skill is pure rubbish.  Something like super speed on a 20s cooldown would be way more beneficial for Virtuoso being able to do it's job.  Virtuoso should probably have a few decent sources of super speed to be frank. 

10.  The spec needs some kind of built in condi cleanse.  Maybe it could be a trait, maybe it could be on my proposed Dagger 2 flipover skill.  Maybe you could remove the boons and damage and make the healing skill cleanse more conditions than just 1 and without qualifications. 

11.  For condi virtuoso, it needs to be compensated for the DPS lost on scepter and staff due to the loss of clones, as the auto attacks on those weapons lose 50% of the damage without clones.  You could give double stacks when spec'd virtuoso or double duration.  But yeah some sort of compensation needs to be implemented because in PvP condi virtuoso cannot live on Dagger and Dagger alone. 

12.  Thousand Cuts has one of the absolute worst delivery methods for damage I've ever seen in this game.  You will not hit any player with it for more than like 2,000 damage.  Frankly it needs to go back to the drawing board.  But really it should either swap animations with Rain of Blades, or should be like a ground targeted field that just looks like projectiles.  

13.  Psychic Force should go down to a 20 second cooldown in PvP. 

14.  The traits in general are pretty underwhelming.  Even the top aegis line.  Virtuoso wants to be kiting and away from the target, not actively drawing their attention.  So the quickness and unblockable on block/dodge generally just means you won't have it when you need it.  Other professions that have things like quickness have it tied to specific skills or traits like Soulbeast's live fast activating on beast skills, which if you're using means you're going to proc it when you go on the offensive and want it. 

 

Edited March 23, 2022 by mortrialus.3062

[Downstate.4697]

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PiwAgqZlVwUZXMWGKmWXpxKA-zZJ8Ec8A

This is what I have been expirimenting on recently. The healing is nice and the damage is respectable, but with how low heal scales on everything I may end up switching to maurader amulet. The pistol +bladesong harmony combo is very strong while staff helps you generate more blades and not forcing you into melee. Swords are trash on virtuoso imo. Its all about that ranged damage.

[FarmBotXD.1430]

As long as shatters can not hit a moving target virtuoso will remain with 0 winning match-ups.
Like sure the elite is kittening garbage in many aspects but as long as it can not even land its main mechanic on anything somewhat intelligent there is no point even arguing.
I remember trying to hit a rev that attacked my ally with massive F2, all of them missed as he was walking sideways spamming autos into my ally.

[Zenith.7301]

6 minutes ago, FarmBotXD.1430 said:

As long as shatters can not hit a moving target virtuoso will remain with 0 winning match-ups.
Like sure the elite is kittening garbage in many aspects but as long as it can not even land its main mechanic on anything somewhat intelligent there is no point even arguing.
I remember trying to hit a rev that attacked my ally with massive F2, all of them missed as he was walking sideways spamming autos into my ally.

 

 

Anet doesn't play their own game in any serious manner.

 

The ranger siege turtle pet has its autoattack be a 2 sec delay siege attack that hits where the attack was initially cast, which means the siege turtle pet will hit 0% of its autoattacks on a moving target.

 

They don't playtest their game. They just release gimmicks they troll around with their developer peers and brag about in GDC surface level presentations for career progression in the industry.

 

They don't aim to design a game actually with the player's experience in mind.

[Puck.3697]

Gonna be honest. 

I don't struggle to hit people with shatters, espically not F2... F3 can be a bugger to land and F1 I think is easier to miss but I most of the time do hit.

My issue with em is you stack 5 blades and swing. And it litterally does lower DMG then other proffessions can do faster. 

When you consider the committment required to use one I.E forced to face target and cast time with the risk of Reflects and dodges. There is no pay off. 

And the damage outside the shatters is also pretty low which doesn't help. 

Someone who knows how to use reflects will effectively make u absolutely worthless to the team realistically.

If your gonna comit to the. You going to be primarily depending on outplaying the enemy. I play it quite alot in spvp it's pretty fun. Once I got used to it I could perform to a decent level in gold ranked games. But it's rough in all honesty. 

[Exciton.8942]

2 hours ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PiwAgqZlVwUZXMWGKmWXpxKA-zZJ8Ec8A

This is what I have been expirimenting on recently. The healing is nice and the damage is respectable, but with how low heal scales on everything I may end up switching to maurader amulet. The pistol +bladesong harmony combo is very strong while staff helps you generate more blades and not forcing you into melee. Swords are trash on virtuoso imo. Its all about that ranged damage.

I played with a similar idea(same trait lines) but with condi instead. I don't think power is doing enough damage with wizard amulet. But with sage amulet, you can still do respectful condi burst through confusion.

I found the build decent in side node dueling. However, virtuoso heavily relies on the dodge for blade trait for blade generation, this means you don't get enough firepower when you are not targeted. But you are also not tanky enough to survive team fight aoe spam. 

 

Edited March 23, 2022 by Exciton.8942