This game needs to rely less on players using third party websites for information.

[Luthan.5236]

I think most MMORPG have a lot of main info that only is available through extenal information. Lies in the nature of the MMORPG. Lots of changing content and the deeper mechanics usually not too relevant for a lot of players - they then explained in detail in some wiki by people gathering information.

For stuff like the skycale - and other collections - a bit vague info is in the game and when that stuff was new it was meant to be discoverd by working together. I guess. People on the map all doing the same - talking with each other. For players that do it later ... there is the wiki for this.

But wasn't meant to be with step ty step exact location provided by the game itself.

Edited May 2, 2022 by Luthan.5236

[Danikat.8537]

11 minutes ago, ASP.8093 said:

You have to strike a balance here, because a game where *all* ancillary information is directly in the game UI is basically a game that's afraid to have you actually explore anything.

At the end of the day, I suspect the problem with the Skyscale eggs is that it's a boring activity so everyone just short-circuits it to get to the reward.

I think part of the problem is that there's no way to strike the right balance for every player. Different people will have very different levels of interest, motivation and ability. What one person might consider to be a fun scavenger hunt following hints someone else will consider to be an annoying grind that would take hours of pointless searching without using a guide and a 3rd person might consider to be overly linear.

I've seen a lot of those debates around puzzle games. Everyone knows the game doesn't give you all the information because you're supposed to figure it out, but it's very rarely that more than a few people can agree on the right level of information to make it fun for players to figure out.

[Elricht Kaltwind.8796]

I'm not sure how old you are but are you familiar with the fact that before the Xbox came out, games generally didn't offer you the solutions to all the puzzles and collections? 🤔 You have the option of using an external guide to cheat your way through the game's content. Were the solutions to every challenge given in the game itself, then those who don't wish to cheat their way through might not have any such option.

[Khisanth.2948]

18 hours ago, mythical.6315 said:

 

Fixed your title:  Players need to rely less on using third party websites for information.

Players need to just go do things they want to do on their own instead of complaining about the existence of guides.

[Erise.5614]

I think there needs to be a healthy differentiation between a few things.

@Danikat.8537 has some excellent points. How much information and presentation matters. A game like The Witness doesn't tell you anything. It doesn't even have text besides subtitles. Yet it still deliberately designs around a specific level of knowledge while also being safe in the knowledge that it teaches that necessary knowledge nearby and basically all players will find it.

Puzzle difficulty really requires a delicate balance where, ideally, the more of a step up in complexity it is, the less likely it is to be mandatory to progress. Meaning there is an absolute brain dead core that everyone can follow and where everyone can progress. And challenge and rewards for others who go looking. Who want more. So everyone can set their own level of difficulty while playing! 

(Edit: And maybe there's even reason to come back if you skipped it the first time and notice you actually enjoy that kind of content later on!) 

Edited May 2, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Strider Pj.2193]

1 hour ago, Einlanzer.1627 said:

 

If you're finished with your hyperbole, perhaps you can join us at the big kids' table and engage in actual discussion on the topic. I mean, why are you equating proper in-game guidance in a video game with being spoon-fed? 

I’ll wait for an adult suggestion before having you join the big kids table.  🙂

 

People that WANT a road map can get one with TACO.  People that prefer to actually explore, they can.  🤷

 

I don’t want dev money spent to go back, and put in an unnecessary road map for people to hold their hands.  I’d rather new maps, more attention to WvW, better in game assistance from GMs.  
 

Hope your day gets better!  

[ArchonWing.9480]

You know, for all this awesome googling , this never came up?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Skyscale_Eggs

I mean yea, in-game info is not that good, but the wiki is not a 3rd party site.

Edited May 2, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Aodlop.1907]

Nothing takes me out of a game more than literally having to take myself out of the game so I can find the data I need to go proceed forward with my objectives.

[Diak Atoli.2085]

1 hour ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

You know, for all this awesome googling , this never came up?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Skyscale_Eggs

I mean yea, in-game info is not that good, but the wiki is not a 3rd party site.

Uh, actually... Both wikis ( Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2) are 3rd party, player-driven resources.

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

13 minutes ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

I’ll wait for an adult suggestion before having you join the big kids table.  🙂

People that WANT a road map can get one with TACO.  People that prefer to actually explore, they can.  🤷

I don’t want dev money spent to go back, and put in an unnecessary road map for people to hold their hands.  I’d rather new maps, more attention to WvW, better in game assistance from GMs.

ArcDPS offered build-templates, yet ANet developed and implemented their own. Enforced it and monetized it. 
GW2Temple was our way to build and organize groups for years, until ANet developed and implemented the LFG. 
TACO existed for ages, yet ANet bothered to created the content-guide with the most basic content-progression. 
ArcDPS offers a dps meter, but the Special Forces Training Area also offers this service. In this case, both features can be combined to enhance the experience for the players. 

Just because a 3rd party program exists, it does not mean that there will never be an ingame option for this. 

The complaints about relying too much on remote resources are old. Some of us play on advanced gaming computers with multiple screens. They have the wiki on one screen, gw2 Efficiency on another maybe one of the TP apps and of course the game itself. But not everyone is that rich. Games unfold their true potential when the players fully immerse in their environement. Constantly swapping between windows breaks that immersion.

The Skyscale collection is an extreme example. They probably tested with this how far they can go with the complexity of collections. Looking at the most recent implemention, the Turtle collection, I guess they have tried to improve. While the collection still has some annoying steps, it is a lot less tedious than the Skyscale.

I try to avoid (b)lokh-ing improvement-suggestions and new ideas. Even if it is related to content I avoid or dislike. Sometimes I've got a few own ideas, sometimes I can only give a like/Thank You emoji. Maybe they create someting that makes me enjoy that content in the future. 
-
One way of reducing the demand for 3rd party resources from player-side is to utilize the Message of the Day. Examples:

Motd of my mainguild
While it is quite stacked, you still have a good overview about the guild-stuff, the dailies, lw rotation, psna and information about current activities. You can get all of that data from the wiki or GW2 efficiency. But our members like this feature, because they do not have to do that. However to make this working, you need someone to write/edit the message daily.

Motd of my conveinence-guild (signature)
All the important waypoints on one view. Not maintainance required.

Both can be refreshed by unchecking/checking the guild representation, so you can have the data whenever you want it.
-
Our Trading Portal is browser. So there is a chance to access web-content in the game, in theory.

One option could be an ingame-wiki. Simplified, without any full-text and pictures. Just icons, a few words and symobls explaining stuff like combos or crowd-control. Accessible via a chat command, e. g. "/info combo".

The content-guide could be modified to work on collections. 

In the end, it is their decision. But I think the less time we spend outside the game, the better they feel. So there might be some hope for the future.

[Khisanth.2948]

18 minutes ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

The Skyscale collection is an extreme example. They probably tested with this how far they can go with the complexity of collections.

Then what do you call https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rock_Collector? That one is longer than all three Skyscale collections combined.

If we want to talk about testing then were can go all the way back to the flame and frost sign post achievement which is functionally the same.

[ArchonWing.9480]

49 minutes ago, Diak Atoli.2085 said:

Uh, actually... Both wikis ( Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2) are 3rd party, player-driven resources.

Yes, but that's not the same as a third party site.

It's integrated into the game client itself with the /wiki command.

Why would you need to google random sites when you can use that command?

Edited May 2, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Ashen.2907]

I am not sure that I agree that players choosing to share shortcuts and the like is the gamy relying on third party sources.

[Khisanth.2948]

52 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

I am not sure that I agree that players choosing to share shortcuts and the like is the gamy relying on third party sources.

That made me realize something.

What is the difference between players sharing information with each other(on a website) and players sharing information with each other(in game)? Is the medium actually more important than the message?

"The game needs to rely less on players talking to each other." 🤣

[Ashen.2907]

1 hour ago, Khisanth.2948 said:

That made me realize something.

What is the difference between players sharing information with each other(on a website) and players sharing information with each other(in game)? Is the medium actually more important than the message?

"The game needs to rely less on players talking to each other." 🤣

Indeed. Those third party sites and aides are just a way that players have organized what they choose to share about the game with other players. They are essentially the same as my guildmate offering in guild chat or discord to guide other guildies tbrough content.

[Kichwas.7152]

On 5/1/2022 at 3:04 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

What I would be in favour of is better connections between the game and the out-of-game information. 

 

It'd be really nice if there was just a command. Maybe a chat command, that could bring up one of those websites with helpful curated info on what was going on.

Hmmm...

I wonder how they might be able to do such a chat command? 😏

 

And to the people who say the game "needs to rely on them less" - nothing is forcing you to type that command. GW2 is actually a LOT of fun as an exploration of mystery type game. I usually play somewhere in between. Doing some things blind and that command for other things, as my whims strike me.

 

Edited May 2, 2022 by Kichwas.7152

[Astralporing.1957]

6 hours ago, Elricht Kaltwind.8796 said:

I'm not sure how old you are but are you familiar with the fact that before the Xbox came out, games generally didn't offer you the solutions to all the puzzles and collections? 🤔 You have the option of using an external guide to cheat your way through the game's content. Were the solutions to every challenge given in the game itself, then those who don't wish to cheat their way through might not have any such option.

I'm not sure how old are you, but were you aware that in those "good old times" games were generally far less popular than they are now?

[HonesltlyX.7164]

I agree, but only to an extent. The example the OP used with skyscale wasn't a good one as an entire guide would need to committed for just that. But, the game does a good job placing you on the path with Gorrik.

 

With that said, there are some things in the game a player will never know about unless someone tells them it is there and unfortunately what you don't know, you don't know. For example, I just finished Mawdrey II after about 8 months of the items taking up space in the bank. I had no clue what it was for and I was afraid to just dump the stuff. Until I Google search I will not get on the path to it.

 

Additionally, achievements are rather messy. The UI does need a clean up and we should be able to at least track achievements like we track objectives.

[Khisanth.2948]

1 hour ago, Kichwas.7152 said:

And to the people who say the game "needs to rely on them less" - nothing is forcing you to type that command. GW2 is actually a LOT of fun as an exploration of mystery type game. I usually play somewhere in between. Doing some things blind and that command for other things, as my whims strike me.

I do the same and I would like to see someone explain what exactly is so bad about being able to play the parts I like and have something to skip through the parts I don't like.

42 minutes ago, HonesltlyX.7164 said:

With that said, there are some things in the game a player will never know about unless someone tells them it is there and unfortunately what you don't know, you don't know. For example, I just finished Mawdrey II after about 8 months of the items taking up space in the bank. I had no clue what it was for and I was afraid to just dump the stuff. Until I Google search I will not get on the path to it.

You get items for it as part of doing LS2. There are also hints in the descriptions of those items.

[HonesltlyX.7164]

14 minutes ago, Khisanth.2948 said:

You get items for it as part of doing LS2. There are also hints in the descriptions of those items.

 

Right, "hints". I shouldn't have to rely a "hints" especially vague ones. The game should be able to introduce more clearly rather than me having to Google the item itself to find out what I'm supposed to do with it. Google should be used for the "how", not the "what".

[Khisanth.2948]

15 minutes ago, HonesltlyX.7164 said:

 

Right, "hints". I shouldn't have to rely a "hints" especially vague ones. The game should be able to introduce more clearly rather than me having to Google the item itself to find out what I'm supposed to do with it. Google should be used for the "how", not the "what".

Players shouldn't ever have to explore the game world?

[HonesltlyX.7164]

10 minutes ago, Khisanth.2948 said:

Players shouldn't ever have to explore the game world?

 

Has nothing to do with exploring the game world. My words were "introduce". All the game has to do is point the player in the right direction.

[Ashen.2907]

13 minutes ago, Khisanth.2948 said:

Players shouldn't ever have to explore the game world?

I want the game to message me at work, discord, text or email are all acceptible, to let me know that it has solved every tidbit of the game for me, and provide a list of the achievements that it earned for me.

[Tukaram.8256]

On 5/2/2022 at 5:46 AM, Aodlop.1907 said:

Honestly I just want to play GW2 without having to close the game so much to get data elsewhere. It's a thing for every MMO I think, but more so with GW2.

It is true for all the games I play(ed).  But GW2 has an in-game fix for you - the /wiki <keyword> command. 

The wiki has so much information I do not see any better way to integrate it.  An in-game help screen... would just be the wiki... 😎

[Dante.1508]

22 hours ago, yoni.7015 said:

With a second screen you don’t have to minimize the game. 
I don’t mind using the wiki for additional information. 

I tried multi screens and it gave me hugely bad motion sickness, no idea why. So i can't use multiple monitors.

14 hours ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

🥄

 

There you go.  It’s what some of you need.  
 

Being spoon fed isn’t healthy.  

There is no spoon. in the matrix and Gw2.

10 hours ago, Khisanth.2948 said:

Then what do you call https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rock_Collector? That one is longer than all three Skyscale collections combined.

If we want to talk about testing then were can go all the way back to the flame and frost sign post achievement which is functionally the same.

The game explains stuff so well that i didn't even know that existed till you posted it..

Edited May 3, 2022 by Dante.1508