I don't understand 5-target cap AoE for WvW

[Gotejjeken.1267]

What does this accomplish in a mode that is based around far more than 5 people in an area at a time? Probably has been debated for years now, but what is the fixation with making 10 cap skills into 5?

If sustain was the reason, what about a jagged balance where defensive (i.e. heals/boons) skills are a lower cap than offensive ones? So like heals can be 8 capped and offensive skills 10 capped so you would have to plan pushes a little better?

They talk about bringing melee back up to prominence, but you can't do that with a 5-target cap as there is no reason to jump in the middle of a group of more than 5 only to be hitting 5.  

Just one of those things I wonder if there ever was an official explanation for or if the right people got angry on reddit and they changed it.  

[MedievalThings.5417]

24 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

What does this accomplish in a mode that is based around far more than 5 people in an area at a time? Probably has been debated for years now, but what is the fixation with making 10 cap skills into 5?

If sustain was the reason, what about a jagged balance where defensive (i.e. heals/boons) skills are a lower cap than offensive ones? So like heals can be 8 capped and offensive skills 10 capped so you would have to plan pushes a little better?

They talk about bringing melee back up to prominence, but you can't do that with a 5-target cap as there is no reason to jump in the middle of a group of more than 5 only to be hitting 5.  

Just one of those things I wonder if there ever was an official explanation for or if the right people got angry on reddit and they changed it.  

It does 2 things.

It saves the servers from exploding, because they can barely handle what we have now.

It stops smaller groups from absolutely destroying ktrain blobs, which is Anet's intended gameplay for wvw.

[Recursivision.2367]

Do you want WvW to be devolve into a cloud of staff eles and staff-ele-sniping rangers?

[Custodio.6134]

32 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

So like heals can be 8 capped and offensive skills 10 capped

The issue with this approach is, how damage and boons are applied to subgroups. even though the game supports splitting squads into different incremental numbers (or literally, you can split your squad into any sized subgroups you want), it is balanced around increments of 5 (since 5 players are used in fractals and dungeons, or 10 players in strikes and raids; and these numbers are likely to stay consistent across all game modes). Any number-cap other than an increment of 5 (5/10/15 and so on) completely throws off any balancing completely. This is not so much of an issue on offensive (damaging) skills, but on supportive skills it becomes  a very big deal.

 

 

32 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

They talk about bringing melee back up to prominence, but you can't do that with a 5-target cap as there is no reason to jump in the middle of a group of more than 5 only to be hitting 5.  

you cannot just look at target caps of skills alone, while leaving a squad composition aside. 
As an example, let´s take the target-cap nerfs from a while ago (especially the change for Tempest, which reduced the target-cap from 10 to 5). Before that change, it allowed to pick a tempest for every second subgroup in the secondary-support-slot. the reduction of the target cap put the players into a decision: give up a scrapper slot for tempest in every second subgroup (which is not what you want due to the overall strength of scrapper), or drop tempest entirely. As we know from the past, the latter was the case. 

Changing target caps doesn´t change directly how the class is played, but rather how much the class is present in the comp to adapt to the changed target caps. This happens in either: increasing the amount of [insert class whose target cap got nerfed here], or dropping the class entirely (with some exceptions, mainly being classes that fit a role, where you don´t need to stack them to be effective, such as chrono or spellbreakers). 
 

 

32 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

What does this accomplish in a mode that is based around far more than 5 people in an area at a time?

That´s the second issue, where you are kinda wrong, while it´s also the reason why ANet does have difficulties balancing WvW in general. 
WvW, in the way it is designed, supports literally ANY size of groups. If changes to the balance are made at one point, it will inevitably affect a different aspect of the game as well. Depending on the change, this will either affect small, medium or large groups in different ways both, intentionally and unintentionally. This is an inevitable, and also unchangeable fact with WvW- balance. 

My guess is, that ANet is doing some "mistakes" when it comes to the approach of balance (note that these are assumptions, so some of them contradict each other! 😞
 

• they try to get a balance that works for every mode equally (which is impossible due to the nature of different playstyles and group sizes
• they try to balance classes in a way, that everything is viable in as many scenarios as possible (which is impossible, since comps will always stack the most effective class for the role it has to play, as much as possible within the boundaries of the comp)
• they try to balance everything around the numbers only, rather than the fundamental mechanics behind it (which to an extent makes sense, since adjusting numbers is easier than overhauling mechanics that interact with each other)
• maybe they don´t even have a clear line in mind on how they want to have WvW to be played. 

 

 

Edited May 10, 2022 by Custodio.6134
fixed typo

[Riba.3271]

10 targets = Mindless AoE spam

5 Targets =  AoEs with placement mattering

1/3 targets = Gameplay where only hitting key targets matters

 

So reasonings are following:

- Target priority (Incoming): Targets in middle of fields or first hit by user centered attacks (CoR, projectiles) will take the damage. This allows squishy players to stay in range of enemies while allowing to not get hit by their abilities. If the ability can hit 10 targets, it will almost certainly hit you removing 1 skill expression from the game.

- Target priority (Outgoing): Like above, if you place your field too deep into enemy, you will be just hitting targets that some of your teams user-centered skills can't hit. Meaning skill expression is required. Them standing on your fields isn't enough in 5 target system, actual placement matters.

- Damage: If skills deal little damage and hit more targets in return, game naturally becomes less skilled. Burst is non existant and game would be balanced upon downing 10 targets at same time rather than 5. This would also shorten the fights.

- Proximity priority: Heals seeping outside your party are proximity based. So in a way it is more skilled. But it will mean tightly packed players will have more sustain and kill any other playstyle. Currently you can receive plenty of support orbiting provided 600 radius support skills are used and equipped properly.

- RNG: If outgoing heal numbers and damage numbers are both doubled, will the game will play out similarly? No. You have to consider case where someone receives lower end of RNG healing due to CC and party mental state, and higher end of this newly doubled damage

 

While I am huge fan of most support skills hitting 6 targets and reducing overall healing to increase skill expression by introducing out-of-party proximity healing/damage reduction, I do not think going anywhere beyond that makes sense.

As I see, 10 target skills were Anets attempt of diversifying PvE raid meta so you need only 1 tempest, 1 Herald and 1 scourge etc. They never attempted to make 10-man party a legit thing so I believe it was not WvW related.

Edited May 10, 2022 by Threather.9354

[Zyreva.1078]

27 minutes ago, Threather.9354 said:

So reasonings are following:

- Target priority (Incoming): Targets in middle of fields or first hit by user centered attacks (CoR, projectiles) will take the damage. This allows squishy players to stay in range of enemies while allowing to not get hit by their abilities. If the ability can hit 10 targets, it will almost certainly hit you removing 1 skill expression from the game.

 

Yea, being able to facetank aoe solely due to numbers instead of having to actively avoid them - like anyone in a grp of 5 or less has to do -  is surely "skillful" gameplay ...

[Stand The Wall.6987]

3 hours ago, Threather.9354 said:

10 targets = Mindless AoE spam

5 Targets =  AoEs with placement mattering

1/3 targets = Gameplay where only hitting key targets matters

10 targets = stack and die

5 targets = bring your own blob

1/3 targets = wwwww111111111

[God.2708]

Why 5 or 10? Why not 7.5 targets? Or 13 targets? What if we introduced a new stat that increased the number of targets you could hit?

[Charall.4710]

4 hours ago, Recursivision.2367 said:

Do you want WvW to be devolve into a cloud of staff eles and staff-ele-sniping rangers?

Yes

[Riba.3271]

4 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Yea, being able to facetank aoe solely due to numbers instead of having to actively avoid them

Not face tank, it is positioning behind melee

EP EP EP EP EP  <- Enemy players

vs

G G G G W   <- Heavy classes soaking coalesence of ruin and necro axe 3s in hard situations

N N N E M <- Light classes hiding <50 range behind heavy classes

That is simplified form of it but it is skill expression where support classes position to front to soak damage and light classes try to be minimum amount possible range behind them. 10 target cap skills make this kind of high-level positioning nearly impossible

Edited May 10, 2022 by Threather.9354

[Justine.6351]

7 hours ago, Threather.9354 said:

10 targets = Mindless AoE spam

5 Targets =  AoEs with placement mattering

1/3 targets = Gameplay where only hitting key targets matters

Uh aoe skill size determines the accuracy of placement not the target cap.

[Justine.6351]

7 hours ago, Recursivision.2367 said:

Do you want WvW to be devolve into a cloud of staff eles and staff-ele-sniping rangers?

Yes I would love to see individuals matter more than just a blob of boons rolling around facetanking everything other than an enemy zerg.

[Zyreva.1078]

17 hours ago, Threather.9354 said:

10 target cap skills make this kind of high-level positioning nearly impossible

"high-level positioning" just lol

Shows how ridiculous low the skill requirements are for zerging.

Edited May 11, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Aeolus.3615]

5 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

"high-level positioning" just lol

Shows how ridiculous low the skill requirements are for zerging.

For my exp all i just see is  keep range and AOE's/pew pew 

[Dralor.3701]

I don’t know whether it’s the right or wrong answer but some of you don’t understand how it would change large fights.

 

Daoc didn’t have a target cap and yes it sucked or was hilarious when a group with 2 pbaoe dudes blew up an entire server at the entrance to a castle.

 

That being said it discourages people from stacking in a tiny little ball. Larger fights in DAOC were super spread out and a small group could still run a melee train on people with great success.

 

(I understand many other game mechanics were different, especially regarding hard CC/immunity etc)

[enkidu.5937]

50 minutes ago, Dralor.3701 said:

Daoc didn’t have a target cap and yes it sucked or was hilarious when a group with 2 pbaoe dudes blew up an entire server at the entrance to a castle.

 

That being said it discourages people from stacking in a tiny little ball. Larger fights in DAOC were super spread out and a small group could still run a melee train on people with great success.

Sounds great! So, real large scale fights are easily doable in WvW. 👍

 

Atm we have X ppl just stack on tag. You cant even tell if X = 10 or 60.

[Dawdler.8521]

Tbh I dont understand it either.

The cap should be 3.

[Sereath.1428]

Yeah the cap should be 3, maybe even 2. The bigger blob should always win, 100%. Holding W and continuing to press the same one or two skills on cd should be the only viable way to play WvW.

Edited May 12, 2022 by XxsdgxX.8109

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

1 hour ago, XxsdgxX.8109 said:

Yeah the cap should be 3, maybe even 2. The bigger blob should always win, 100%. Holding W and continuing to press the same one or two skills on cd should be the only viable way to play WvW.

another one who escaped the circus, hm?

its  largescale pvp gamemode. skill should and does decide battles. numbers mustn't be the decisive factor. anet tries their best to nerf players, but it's game knowledge and "mechanics to understand", that makes good groups win overnumbers.

 

like u wont win if u just mash random buttons, even if ur 50 v 20 - and i dont get why it is appealing to have this sheer numerical domination for some people. it makes no sense really.

 

@Gotejjeken.1267 anet said years ago that this is bc it makes less serverlag.

[Sereath.1428]

Berserker should also be removed from the game, AKA no one should be allowed to spec for pure damage. No one should be dying because that's not fun.

Edited May 12, 2022 by XxsdgxX.8109

[Custodio.6134]

1 hour ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

numbers mustn't be the decisive factor.

this is something you will never achieve in a mode, that allows team sizes being different. If you want even numbers --> sPvP is your way to go.

While skill, proper teamcomps and such can negate the difference in numbers to a certain extent (good raid guilds are proving this on a regular basis), there is a limit on how much you can compensate being outnumbered with skill. 

[KrHome.1920]

A lower target cap does not automatically favor the bigger group, when you lower the support cap as well. The support cap should acually be lower than the target cap to punish support stacking and boon ball attempts.

Additionally this would increase the server and client performance.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

ok one more time. smaller groups get hit harder by nerfs, even the good ones. they need to sustain double triple or quadruple incoming damage with worse and worse sustain and get higher cooldowns that deal less damage - this is what the recent nerfs had done

 

so any freaking further nerfs to sustain and damage just keeps bonking onto the heads of smaller groups. if they keep going, even the strong guilds will have to add numbers bc the pepega blobs just don't die anymore from throwing wet noodles on them

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

On 5/10/2022 at 7:29 PM, God.2708 said:

Why 5 or 10? Why not 7.5 targets? Or 13 targets? What if we introduced a new stat that increased the number of targets you could hit?

That’s like saying you’ve got 7.5 kids…you can’t have .5 of a target…it’s an integer value.

 

This must be an attempt at humor flying over my head. 
 

Your suggestion is cool though. Probably one of the coolest suggestions I’ve heard in a while and would be a step in the right direction for the game. Like a point investment system where one can choose the amount of targets a skill can hit. You’re given something like 30 points and can choose to have a single skill hit 30 targets or have 6 skills hit 5 targets and so on…making the decision for target cap autonomous would open up huge number of new possible builds.

 

Edited May 13, 2022 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[KrHome.1920]

3 hours ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

ok one more time. smaller groups get hit harder by nerfs, even the good ones. they need to sustain double triple or quadruple incoming damage with worse and worse sustain and get higher cooldowns that deal less damage - this is what the recent nerfs had done

 

so any freaking further nerfs to sustain and damage just keeps bonking onto the heads of smaller groups. if they keep going, even the strong guilds will have to add numbers bc the pepega blobs just don't die anymore from throwing wet noodles on them

If your group is smaller then it can also avoid damage more effectively (movement, clouding, less players falling behind etc.).

If you plan to fight the static 50 player blob with a static 20 player blob and win by throwing AOEs at each other, then you are doing it wrong.

The real problem is that in a scenario where damage and support both is capped at the same number (be it 5, 10 or whatever), the bigger group gets an exponential advantage by stacking support.

Edited May 13, 2022 by KrHome.1920