What's GW2's biggest lore mistake according to you?

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

4 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

And what's worse, is the claim that asura - who had surfaced for only ~200 years - would be able to figure out what humans had been studying for 1500 years is a bit silly, even if asura are supposedly geniuses.

Asura have magi-tech that makes them, far and above, the most advanced species on the planet. If you took a modern scientist, using modern tools and technology, and told them to find out how many days are in a year, they could probably do it much quicker then someone from a civilization with a tech level of the dark ages.

5 hours ago, HotDelirium.7984 said:

Rushing the last dragon Soo-Won out to usher in hurrying up and ending the dragon cycle plot line. She's interesting but doesn't really feel like the originator of Tyria, maybe of Elder Dragons but the entire world? What about all the races besides human? 

Anet has been pretty consistent on giving each of the dragons pretty much the same amount of time/content. This being 3 maps of story, and a dragon fight

1. Zhaitan had Straights of Devistation, Malchor's Leap, and Cursed Shore. With a dragon fight in Arah story mode.
2. Mordremoth got Verdant Brink, Auric Basin, and Tangled Depths. With a dragon fight in Dragon's Stand.
3. Kralkatorrik got Domain of Vabbi, Jahai Bluffs, and Thunderhead Peak. With a dragon fight in Dragonfall.
4. Jormag got Bitterfrost Frontier, Bjora Marches, and Drizzlewood Coast. With a dragon fight in Dragonstorm.
5. Primordus got Ember Bay, Draconis Mons, its third map got axed for the DRMs. With a dragon fight in Dragonstorm.
6. Soo-Won got Seitung Provence, New Kaineng City, and Echovald Wilds. With a dragon fight in Dragon's End.

Just like they gave the various seasonal subplots from LWS3 onwards the same amount of time/content with 3 parters.

And the other races rose naturally out of evolution. Well, probably magic accelerated evolution.

[Malus.2184]

Correction. I want to end Lyssa. She's just as insane as Balthazar. "I'll show you the difference between  illusion and truth." *goes into a REE when Balthazar died despite the truth being that either he died or we died*

[The Greyhawk.9107]

8 hours ago, Eekasqueak.7850 said:

Idk everything I hear about her just makes it feel like they had to stretch hard to make her this overarching mastermind without really caring how they got there? 

What would ever give you that idea 🤣

[draxynnic.3719]

10 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

Correction. I want to end Lyssa. She's just as insane as Balthazar. "I'll show you the difference between  illusion and truth." *goes into a REE when Balthazar died despite the truth being that either he died or we died*

Where did you get this from?

There's a line related to one of the legendaries where the speaker is worried about how the gods might respond to Balthazar's death, but AFAIK we haven't seen any indication as to what their response actually is.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

13 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

Correction. I want to end Lyssa. She's just as insane as Balthazar. "I'll show you the difference between  illusion and truth." *goes into a REE when Balthazar died despite the truth being that either he died or we died*

But nothing really shows Lyssa as insane, let alone reacting negatively to Balthazar's death?

Are you just wanting to kill Lyssa for the sake of killing Lyssa, or perhaps because of headcanon you've developed/encountered?

[Kalavier.1097]

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Where did you get this from?

There's a line related to one of the legendaries where the speaker is worried about how the gods might respond to Balthazar's death, but AFAIK we haven't seen any indication as to what their response actually is.

"They killed him. Balthazar. If Lyssa ever learns of this...I don't know what she'd do—what any of them would do. They still claim benevolence, but let's hope they weren't watching too closely."

Which all it does it somewhat support a theory of Lyssa either helping him directly or indirectly, or Lyssa not being in favor of his punishment.

On 8/20/2022 at 3:47 AM, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Regarding the severe incongruity of the Toxic Alliance: did some people actually quit the game over that? Looking back it seems I wasn't active during that specific time period on the original forum so its something I missed, and yeah the Krait and even a faction of the Court working together has always been a severe break in the previously established lore but to quit over it seems a bit extreme.

It seems the internet ate up my post from before but I'll retype whoo!

Personally, I took all the alliances as being clever manipulation of both sides (Flame and Dredge, Pirates and Inquest, Nightmare and Krait) to join forces for a common goal, by making each side feel like they were gaining something and could backstab/get rid of the other side once obtained.

Dredge and Flame both wanted better weapons to defeat their enemy, and neither side really trusted or liked the other.

Nightmare court wanted more ways to spread well, nightmare. Krait wanted to resurrect their god.

Inquest as typical wanted world domination, pirates wanted better gear and toys. Ironically, the last pairing seemed to have dissolved the most peacefully, or the inquest elements involved got wiped out leaving just the Aetherblades who were more functional then the other alliances.

The thing is also that each of these groups were depicted or implied to be extremes for their factions, and IIRC the flame legion and krait both ended up with "Kill them on sight" if they tried to return back to their main faction. But after Lion's Arch battle, the factions basically dissolved/tore themselves apart, besides the Aetherblades.

[draxynnic.3719]

40 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

"They killed him. Balthazar. If Lyssa ever learns of this...I don't know what she'd do—what any of them would do. They still claim benevolence, but let's hope they weren't watching too closely."

Which all it does it somewhat support a theory of Lyssa either helping him directly or indirectly, or Lyssa not being in favor of his punishment.

That's the point. This is an unknown speaker worried about how they might react, not any indication that they have or will react that way. Maybe it's foreshadowing, maybe it's just an unreliable narrator voicing their concerns. Certainly, I'd definitely hope nobody's going to condemn me to death just because some third party speculated that I might respond negatively to some event I might or might not even be aware of!

Lyssa being named specifically just seems a further indication that Lyssa might have been closer to Balthazar than the other gods, but we don't know how that's going to play out. There are also indications that she cared about mortals in general more than the other gods except possibly Dwayna, so I don't exactly think it's a given that she's going to go into a crazy rampage of revenge on finding out about his death.

 

Regarding the Aetherblades and Inquest, I think there was a comment made by the writing team at the time. Basically, it boiled down to the Inquest deciding that the endeavour was no longer profitable and exiting. However, their presence served as a justification for why the Aetherblades were so much more advanced than the other pirates (including, IIRC, an implication that it was the Inquest that salvaged some Pact airships to get the Aetherblades into the air in the first place). They pretty much regarded it more as a contract than as an alliance per se.

[zeyeti.8347]

Jormag tooth ! Compare the tooth in his jaw from dragon storm instance from the one in hoelbrak , holy kitten , i swear that always bothers me when i am doing my pinata on dragon bash festival and get a glimpse inside hoelbrak big room...

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

1 hour ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

"They killed him. Balthazar. If Lyssa ever learns of this...I don't know what she'd do—what any of them would do. They still claim benevolence, but let's hope they weren't watching too closely."

Which all it does it somewhat support a theory of Lyssa either helping him directly or indirectly, or Lyssa not being in favor of his punishment.

22 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

That's the point. This is an unknown speaker worried about how they might react, not any indication that they have or will react that way. Maybe it's foreshadowing, maybe it's just an unreliable narrator voicing their concerns. Certainly, I'd definitely hope nobody's going to condemn me to death just because some third party speculated that I might respond negatively to some event I might or might not even be aware of!

Lyssa being named specifically just seems a further indication that Lyssa might have been closer to Balthazar than the other gods, but we don't know how that's going to play out. There are also indications that she cared about mortals in general more than the other gods except possibly Dwayna, so I don't exactly think it's a given that she's going to go into a crazy rampage of revenge on finding out about his death.

It's also possible that the text for Vision is nothing more than ArenaNet canonizing the vocal members of the community, like when they canonized how "scholars" believed the Pale Tree used Ronan's family as templates for how to shape sylvari, or the book in the Durmand Priory basement debating the relationship between Elder Dragons and Six Gods that comes to no conclusion.

 

1 hour ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

The thing is also that each of these groups were depicted or implied to be extremes for their factions, and IIRC the flame legion and krait both ended up with "Kill them on sight" if they tried to return back to their main faction. But after Lion's Arch battle, the factions basically dissolved/tore themselves apart, besides the Aetherblades.

Icebrood Saga ended up 'retconning' the Flame Legion bit, as it turned from "just a faction within the legion" to the whole legion + they were welcomed back (and even still use Fused weapons) as seen in Drizzlewood.

That lore along with their reasonings and how they got tricked all originally came from Angel McCoy posting on the forums, so it's no surprise they're retconning it. I think even the way they got involved ended up retconned a bit with the Return's extra lore.

[HotDelirium.7984]

20 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Asura have magi-tech that makes them, far and above, the most advanced species on the planet. If you took a modern scientist, using modern tools and technology, and told them to find out how many days are in a year, they could probably do it much quicker then someone from a civilization with a tech level of the dark ages.

Anet has been pretty consistent on giving each of the dragons pretty much the same amount of time/content. This being 3 maps of story, and a dragon fight

1. Zhaitan had Straights of Devistation, Malchor's Leap, and Cursed Shore. With a dragon fight in Arah story mode.
2. Mordremoth got Verdant Brink, Auric Basin, and Tangled Depths. With a dragon fight in Dragon's Stand.
3. Kralkatorrik got Domain of Vabbi, Jahai Bluffs, and Thunderhead Peak. With a dragon fight in Dragonfall.
4. Jormag got Bitterfrost Frontier, Bjora Marches, and Drizzlewood Coast. With a dragon fight in Dragonstorm.
5. Primordus got Ember Bay, Draconis Mons, its third map got axed for the DRMs. With a dragon fight in Dragonstorm.
6. Soo-Won got Seitung Provence, New Kaineng City, and Echovald Wilds. With a dragon fight in Dragon's End.

Just like they gave the various seasonal subplots from LWS3 onwards the same amount of time/content with 3 parters.

And the other races rose naturally out of evolution. Well, probably magic accelerated evolution.

Equal screen time does not a logical ending make. I'm glad she got many maps and instances but that doesn't mean it still wasn't shoehorned in to wrap things up. I'll be fair though and say maybe there wasn't any other way to neatly wrap things up ElderDragon-wise but I think the Mother reveal should have been done at the end of the expansion followed by a bit more concrete reasoning over her relationship with the void, the other dragons, other creatures, magic and the world. I have a hard time connecting with her and giving empathy because she comes off as a weak and/or some what uncaring or aloof mother otherwise.

Edited August 21, 2022 by HotDelirium.7984

[Kalavier.1097]

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Regarding the Aetherblades and Inquest, I think there was a comment made by the writing team at the time. Basically, it boiled down to the Inquest deciding that the endeavour was no longer profitable and exiting. However, their presence served as a justification for why the Aetherblades were so much more advanced than the other pirates (including, IIRC, an implication that it was the Inquest that salvaged some Pact airships to get the Aetherblades into the air in the first place). They pretty much regarded it more as a contract than as an alliance per se.

I thought it was the Aetherblades stole some of the airships, which the inquest helped modify/repair?

Ironically, which lead to the Aetherblades losing at least two airships to the Corsairs of Istan lol.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

5 hours ago, HotDelirium.7984 said:

Equal screen time does not a logical ending make. I'm glad she got many maps and instances but that doesn't mean it still wasn't shoehorned in to wrap things up. I'll be fair though and say maybe there wasn't any other way to neatly wrap things up ElderDragon-wise but I think the Mother reveal should have been done at the end of the expansion followed by a bit more concrete reasoning over her relationship with the void, the other dragons, other creatures, magic and the world. I have a hard time connecting with her and giving empathy because she comes off as a weak and/or some what uncaring or aloof mother otherwise.

Well

A. That isn't what shoehorned means.

B. When you have six Elder Dragons, giving them roughly equal screen is logically how you would do it because... why would any one dragon get any more time then the others?

C. If the mother reveal was done at the end of the expansion then the expansion would have ended with us finding out Soo-Won was mother, right as we kill her and thus remove from the world the only living thing old enough to give any sort of background on her being mother.

D. How does she come off as weak or uncaring? In order to save the entire planet from total annihilation from the dragonvoid she sentenced not only herself, but her children, to a endless cycle of torments at the hand of magical/void suffering. That's not weak, that takes incredible conviction and self sacrifice. Weak would have been letting the void ravage Tyria, killing everything on it, just to protect the other Elder Dragons.

6 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Jormag tooth ! Compare the tooth in his jaw from dragon storm instance from the one in hoelbrak , holy kitten , i swear that always bothers me when i am doing my pinata on dragon bash festival and get a glimpse inside hoelbrak big room...

Jormag's tooth in Hoelbrak is part of its left tusk. A tusk being a kind of tooth.

Edited August 21, 2022 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[The Greyhawk.9107]

10 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Jormag tooth ! Compare the tooth in his jaw from dragon storm instance from the one in hoelbrak , holy kitten , i swear that always bothers me when i am doing my pinata on dragon bash festival and get a glimpse inside hoelbrak big room...

ArenaNet did shoot themselves in the foot by making the Tooth as large as they did, in the end they just couldn't make Jormag that large so they retconned the Tooth from a regular fang into being part of a tusk.  Problem with that is the design of the Tooth doesn't line up with this changed lore as instead of being jagged at the broken end it still has a Root at the end that would have been embedded into the gums (the Tooth is based off of shark teeth).

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

50 minutes ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

ArenaNet did shoot themselves in the foot by making the Tooth as large as they did, in the end they just couldn't make Jormag that large so they retconned the Tooth from a regular fang into being part of a tusk.  Problem with that is the design of the Tooth doesn't line up with this changed lore as instead of being jagged at the broken end it still has a Root at the end that would have been embedded into the gums (the Tooth is based off of shark teeth).

That's blatantly false. Kralkatorrik was large enough for the fang to fit him so they could have made Jormag big enough to fit the tooth, and even with Jormag's smaller size, the model actually has two large fangs which are roughly same size as the Fang of the Serpent and would fit onto that broken tusk pretty well. Even similar shape.

So it's quite a bizarre choice that they modeled Jormag the way they did, but decide to retcon the Fang of the Serpent into the Part of a Tusk of the Serpent.

And even then, it's canon lore since core GW2 that Elder Dragons and their minions shrink or grow based on how much magic they have, so the events of Season 3 were the perfect excuse to say "Jormag shrunk because of magical loss so the Fang of the Serpent is actually larger than the ones it has". Hell, they could have even used the shark excuse and say Jormag regrew the missing tooth as well (though that woulda been a worse copout than turning the Fang into a tusk tip).

Edited August 21, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Forgotten Legend.9281]

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

it's canon lore since core GW2 that Elder Dragons and their minions shrink or grow based on how much magic they have,

I've played through the story several times, and i don't ever remember this being stated in game... ( i may have missed something) I am genuinely curious if this is Anet canon or your headcanon.

can you give a specific source?  please give as much info as possible. (ie, if it's said in game, in a book, or by a dev, please quote it and give more information, (like a bibliography note after the quote)). 

My train of thinking:

~When Aurene grew, It can be inferred that her absorption of magic simply sped up her growth into a an adult, not caused it. Since she was only shown as an infant, a child, a teenager, and then as an adult. And she didn't grow in size after Jormag's and Primordus's death, who's magic she surely would have absorbed, and who's magic would have been vastly greater to her own (assumed based on that they were elder dragons and she is less than 10 years old, and that they absorbed more magic in their at-least hundreds of years of existence in their current sleep cycle)

~When Kralkatorrik absorbed Balthazar's magic, i don't remember ANY indication of growth in size, either.

~Primordus's model changed between his appearance in Draconis Mons and Dragonstorm, sure, but i remember no mention of change of size, especially based on magic level. i remember only that Taimi said that Primordus's magic levels fell to below levels at awakening.

EDIT: i also vaguely remember someone saying that the longer someone lives, the stronger their magic is, or the more magic they have, or something like that. (but nothing relating physical size to amount of magic) i'm not totally sure, but i think it was said in season 2, in one of the episodes where the PC enters the library in the Durmond Priory, and i think it was said by Ogden Stonehealer.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Forgotten Legend.9281

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

38 minutes ago, Forgotten Legend.9281 said:

I've played through the story several times, and i don't ever remember this being stated in game... ( i may have missed something) I am genuinely curious if this is Anet canon or your headcanon.

 

can you give a specific source?  please give as much info as possible. (ie, if it's said in game, in a book, or by a dev, please quote it and give more information, (like a bibliography note after the quote)).

Most of it is just player headcanon to try to in-universe rationalize why boss monsters are so much larger then their normal counterparts, and why Elder Dragon's model size changes so often across the game(ignoring that games aren't 100% accurate and do things for the sake of the game rather then because its actual lore)

The closest we've really gotten is an acknowledgement that an Elder Dragon's appearance(not size) can change depending on the kinds of magics they've taken in. Braham comments if Primordus "was always this ugly" during the Icebrood Saga when he goes into the volcano, and the Spirirts of the Wild mention that "Now, the infection of magic from dead gods and dragons is etched across his face."

The fact Soo-Won was the last dragon, and also one of the smallest, disproves the notion that they grow bigger simply because of how much magic they have.

*edit*

Braham and Ryland are the only two instances I can immediately think of where they actually, in-game, mention them having gotten bigger. But neither Braham and Ryland were normal dragon minions, instead being unique champions like the commander.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[zeyeti.8347]

7 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Jormag's tooth in Hoelbrak is part of its left tusk. A tusk being a kind of tooth.

In bitterfrost frontier story (where you are angry with braham) it is referred as a fang .

[Forgotten Legend.9281]

<deleted>

Edited August 22, 2022 by Forgotten Legend.9281
deleted, accidental double-post

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

15 minutes ago, Forgotten Legend.9281 said:

i also vaguely remember someone saying that the longer someone lives, the stronger their magic is, or the more magic they have, or something like that. (but nothing relating physical size to amount of magic) i'm not totally sure, but i think it was said in season 2, in one of the episodes where the PC enters the library in the Durmond Priory, and i think it was said by Ogden Stonehealer.

Well if we take a look at the Elder Dragons.

1. Soo-Won was the last Elder Dragon we fought, and had magics from all previous elder Dragons. Despite this, she is one of, if not the, smallest of the old Elder Dragons.
2. Primordus was the 4/5 dragon we fought. Despite having gained magic from Kralkatorrik, and Balthazar, since we last saw it in LWS3, its Icebrood Saga model is actually much smaller then the LWS3 model.
3. Jormag was also the 4/5 dragon we fought. Despite gaining magic from Zhaitan, Mordremoth, Kralkatorrik, the captured Spirits of the Wild(Ox, Eagle, and Wolverine), and likely something from Balthazar as well, the fact that the Fang of the Serpent still fits on its left tusk almost exactly would indicate it hasn't changed size much, if any, since Asgeir's time.
4. Kralkatorrik. Despite gaining/processing the magic gained from Balthazar at the end of PoF, Kralkatorrik's model actually shrinks in LWS4 compared to the giant head we saw at the end of PoF.
5. Mordremoth was the 2nd dragon we fought, and really only had magic from Zhaitan, and the initial burst of ley line energy that woke it up. Mordremoths whole body, the giant mass of vine tentacles that go deep into the earth, not just the head/neck section we fight, gives it the largest overall mass of the Elder Dragons. This despite it being one of the weakest when we fight it.
6. There's nothing really to compare Zhaitan to that I can think of that would indicate any change in size one way or the other.

So looking at what the game shows us, the Elder Dragons not only DON'T get bigger the more magic they take in, they actually either stay the same, or tend to get smaller/be small. The largest elder Dragon was one of the weaker ones when we fought it.

Most champion/legendary enemies being larger is a result of game mechanics, not lore. Normal bandit executioners are massive for no reason beyond they are legendary enemies. Braham and Ryland getting bigger is a rather unique specific call out by the game, but they weren't normal dragon minions in the first place, and I don't recall the Commander getting HUGE at the end of End of Dragons when Aurene gives us a lot of power. Though I haven't played that chapter since shortly after the expansion cameo out and might be misremembering it. But if they didn't that would seem to prove it isn't just tied to having more magic power, but rather a desire by the dragon to make them larger.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

30 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

In bitterfrost frontier story (where you are angry with braham) it is referred as a fang .

If you want to get into the technical. A fang, by definition, is just a long, sharp, tooth. A tusk is a long, sharp, tooth.

[draxynnic.3719]

One point to note in the cases of Aurene and Soo-Won is that they don't retain all of the magic that they hold. Aurene's whole thing is that she redistributes magic and manages how it flows through the ley lines rather than holding it all for herself, so her smaller size is likely explained through this. Soo-Won, unlike her children, appeared to recognise that hoarding too much magic was bad for her sanity, to the point of imprisoning herself in an apparatus designed to pull magic out of her towards powering an entire nation.

So I don't think the relative sizes of Aurene and Soo-Won necessarily disprove the theory, since they've both taken steps to limit how much magic they keep inside themselves, unlike Soo-Won's children who hoarded everything that didn't go into maintaining their minions. As a result, you'd expect them to be physically smaller under the theory, even if they're technically managing more magic overall when you also factor in the additional support structures they have in place.  

[draxynnic.3719]

2 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

If you want to get into the technical. A fang, by definition, is just a long, sharp, tooth. A tusk is a long, sharp, tooth.

If you're talking about technicalities, there are greater distinctions than that. Something like the sabre teeth of Smilodon might qualify as both, but the terms are not generally interchangeable.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

While both Fangs and Tusks can both be described as "long, sharp teeth", the fact of the matter is is a very reductive description as there are also significant differences between fangs and tusks, or regular teeth in general and tusks.  One of the main ones is the material of which two are made up, regular teeth are made mostly of pulp tissue, dentine, and an outer layer of enamel but tusks are made almost entirely out of dentine and have no enamel layer.  This allows them to keep growing whereas an enameled tooth cannot once its finished developing.

Edit: was still writing this comment when you posted yours, Drax, so I wasn't "ackchyually"-ing you.

Edited August 22, 2022 by The Greyhawk.9107

[Labjax.2465]

On 8/19/2022 at 10:50 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

Honourable mention goes to:

Krait: Release lore established that they believed that they were invincible and held all other races, especially land-dwellers, in contempt.

Nightmare Court: An important event in the founding story is Cadeyrne wanting to wipe out a bunch of krait hatchlings to prevent them from becoming a threat, and being told that was against Ventari's tenets. Part of the point of the Nightmare Court was the belief that the sylvari should be more ruthless towards their enemies, especially universally hostile races like the krait.

Thanks to Scarlet, they formed an alliance!

There were people in the lore community that quit over that one.

Seemingly odd alliances is a real thing in RL though. I wasn't there when that content first came out, so I can only guess they prob did a poor job of justifying it in the lore, but it's not a far-fetched thing in principle. You'd just expect that they would turn on each other at the end if they're successful (if not turning on each other partway through as well). What I would say matters most here is what they believed they would/could gain from it and what their current situation is. Like maybe the krait are realizing they need a lot more slaves to get anywhere, so they see benefit in an alliance with an enemy if it means they can expand their power in the short-term. Maybe the nightmare court trusts scarlet as a sylvari to be capable enough to use them as a resource, without letting them gain any real power. I'm not saying that's how it happened in the game as written (idk how it happens or if it's explained at all), but trying to convey what I mean about how an alliance like this might occur in a real situation.

[Kalavier.1097]

8 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Most of it is just player headcanon to try to in-universe rationalize why boss monsters are so much larger then their normal counterparts, and why Elder Dragon's model size changes so often across the game(ignoring that games aren't 100% accurate and do things for the sake of the game rather then because its actual lore)

The closest we've really gotten is an acknowledgement that an Elder Dragon's appearance(not size) can change depending on the kinds of magics they've taken in. Braham comments if Primordus "was always this ugly" during the Icebrood Saga when he goes into the volcano, and the Spirirts of the Wild mention that "Now, the infection of magic from dead gods and dragons is etched across his face."

The fact Soo-Won was the last dragon, and also one of the smallest, disproves the notion that they grow bigger simply because of how much magic they have.

*edit*

Braham and Ryland are the only two instances I can immediately think of where they actually, in-game, mention them having gotten bigger. But neither Braham and Ryland were normal dragon minions, instead being unique champions like the commander.

A: the theory is literally purely about Elder Dragons, and nothing else. It's fully accepted that boss foes are larger to help be identified/spotted easier. This is seen with like Scarlet who appears bigger at times so people can actually see her, but is just a regular Sylvari.

B: Appearance and size are linked. It's actually explicitly mentioned how Drakker has undergone extensive physical changes due to different magics. Likewise, we've seen Primordus go through changes.

Soo-Won was the last dragon, but she also didn't horde all the magic going into her.

7 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Well if we take a look at the Elder Dragons.

1. Soo-Won was the last Elder Dragon we fought, and had magics from all previous elder Dragons. Despite this, she is one of, if not the, smallest of the old Elder Dragons.
2. Primordus was the 4/5 dragon we fought. Despite having gained magic from Kralkatorrik, and Balthazar, since we last saw it in LWS3, its Icebrood Saga model is actually much smaller then the LWS3 model.
3. Jormag was also the 4/5 dragon we fought. Despite gaining magic from Zhaitan, Mordremoth, Kralkatorrik, the captured Spirits of the Wild(Ox, Eagle, and Wolverine), and likely something from Balthazar as well, the fact that the Fang of the Serpent still fits on its left tusk almost exactly would indicate it hasn't changed size much, if any, since Asgeir's time.
4. Kralkatorrik. Despite gaining/processing the magic gained from Balthazar at the end of PoF, Kralkatorrik's model actually shrinks in LWS4 compared to the giant head we saw at the end of PoF.
5. Mordremoth was the 2nd dragon we fought, and really only had magic from Zhaitan, and the initial burst of ley line energy that woke it up. Mordremoths whole body, the giant mass of vine tentacles that go deep into the earth, not just the head/neck section we fight, gives it the largest overall mass of the Elder Dragons. This despite it being one of the weakest when we fight it.
6. There's nothing really to compare Zhaitan to that I can think of that would indicate any change in size one way or the other.

So looking at what the game shows us, the Elder Dragons not only DON'T get bigger the more magic they take in, they actually either stay the same, or tend to get smaller/be small. The largest elder Dragon was one of the weaker ones when we fought it.

Most champion/legendary enemies being larger is a result of game mechanics, not lore. Normal bandit executioners are massive for no reason beyond they are legendary enemies. Braham and Ryland getting bigger is a rather unique specific call out by the game, but they weren't normal dragon minions in the first place, and I don't recall the Commander getting HUGE at the end of End of Dragons when Aurene gives us a lot of power. Though I haven't played that chapter since shortly after the expansion cameo out and might be misremembering it. But if they didn't that would seem to prove it isn't just tied to having more magic power, but rather a desire by the dragon to make them larger.

Kralkatorrik literally has a form where he appears as a sandstorm, which is what he was doing at end of PoF. he "shrinks" because he returned to a fully solid body really.

Primordus never got magic from Balthazar. Infact, the battle with Balthazar in the volcano was him actively siphoning magic FROM the two elder dragons in a weaponized manner.

51 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Seemingly odd alliances is a real thing in RL though. I wasn't there when that content first came out, so I can only guess they prob did a poor job of justifying it in the lore, but it's not a far-fetched thing in principle. You'd just expect that they would turn on each other at the end if they're successful (if not turning on each other partway through as well). What I would say matters most here is what they believed they would/could gain from it and what their current situation is. Like maybe the krait are realizing they need a lot more slaves to get anywhere, so they see benefit in an alliance with an enemy if it means they can expand their power in the short-term. Maybe the nightmare court trusts scarlet as a sylvari to be capable enough to use them as a resource, without letting them gain any real power. I'm not saying that's how it happened in the game as written (idk how it happens or if it's explained at all), but trying to convey what I mean about how an alliance like this might occur in a real situation.

The thing about these alliances, however (we'll have to see with release of toxic alliance upcoming) is that they were NOT the entire thing, but a group of each faction.

The Nightmare court and Flame Legion aren't monoliths in viewpoints. Molten Alliance has seen minor retcons but then again, flame legion as a whole has been weakened over the years so it makes sense that they leapt for an attempt at leveling the playing field.

 

The Toxic Alliance didn't have a lot of detail, but it was implied to be a super extremist group of Krait trying to use the obelisks to resurrect their god/gods. The nightmare court was a group who wanted new and better ways to cause terror. And all of these alliances outside of the Aetherblades were hardly done with Scarlet just walking up and meeting people face to face. Very few knew about her direct involvement.

And yes, they basically did dissolve after the final big battle of S1, and ceased to be any sort of real threat toward the nations.

15 minutes ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

In short, due to how both factions were described ingame and in Lore documents neither should have been willing to work with the other irrespective of the potential benefits of even a short term, eventual back-stabby alliance, the Krait especially so.  The Krait are supposed to have a complete ideological hatred of all land dwelling beings, land dwellers are inferior, not even worthy of living much less as a possible ally, an equal, and are only good for ritual live sacrifices. The Krait literally want to drown the entire world, killing off all the land dwelling species.  They should be about as willing to work with the likes of the Nightmare Court as the Schutzstaffel would be willing to work the State of Israel.

The nightmare court aren't a monolith, and the whole thing about slaughtering krait children was more of removing a threat then a total hatred of krait as a people by the secondborn in question. It was hardly the entire court that got involved, but one group of it. And the tower of nightmares could've been their attempt at making their own pale tree.

The Krait of the toxic alliance were, from memory, always treated as extremist outsiders, ones who never could go home. We may get more information on this when the relevant episode releases but we'll see. It wasn't "All Krait agree to this" but a very specific group of them.  As I recall, it was never implied they viewed the sylvari of the toxic alliance as equals at all. And they were never welcomed back after the events of S1. The ones involved believed the Toxic Hybrid was the return of their Prophets, the Krait gods.

If we applied similar things from the Molten Alliance to the Toxic alliance, both groups never trusted the other entirely, or beyond the immediate goal.

Honestly, the toxic alliance do something for the Krait that's rarely done which is indicate there is varied levels to their belief. Yes, they all hate other races, but some are fanatics and willing to do anything to return their gods. Others view other races as nothing more then food or sacrifices. Others use them as slave labor. Hopefully we'll see more lore about it.