Im pretty sick of failing Dragons End meta

[Silent.6137]

16 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

I mean. There's several valid definitions of casual. 

In some parts of gaming communities it does mean not very invested and not playing much.

The general dictionary definition is just "relaxed and unconcerned". Which is very valid too. But someone who's playing for relaxation and isn't concerned much about game mechanics or high performance can still be very invested. 

It reads to me as if you fellas are talking past one another using these two definitions. 

 

13 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

I was merely disputing the point that the definition provided was the only definition of casual.

Notice what I said?

1 hour ago, Silent.6137 said:

A casual by most definitions is someone who are not very invested in the game.

It's not the ONLY definition. The point I was trying to put across is that players comes in all stripes. You can't just place them all in an "either or" group.

[Astralporing.1957]

8 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

According to dictionary I see: relaxed and unconcerned, not regular or permanent. A person who does something irregularly.

Seems pretty straightforward. Naturally its a relative term.

If you haven't noticed, those are separate meanings.

So, something regular or permanent, but also relaxed and unconcerned completely fits that definition.

That's one of the problems with the word - it can mean several different, separate things.

For some, casual player will be one that plays occasionally. For others it will be not (ir)regularity that will count, but the amount of time played. Some will define it by how dedicated you are to the game. And some will look at your gameplay style (whether it is more serious or more laid back).

I personally go with the player gameplay style and generally disagree with the classification by time played (seeing as i know several players whose attitude and playstyle i cannot describe in any other way as hardcore, that play only a very limited amount of hours per week)

 

[Cuks.8241]

51 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

If you haven't noticed, those are separate meanings.

So, something regular or permanent, but also relaxed and unconcerned completely fits that definition.

That's one of the problems with the word - it can mean several different, separate things.

For some, casual player will be one that plays occasionally. For others it will be not (ir)regularity that will count, but the amount of time played. Some will define it by how dedicated you are to the game. And some will look at your gameplay style (whether it is more serious or more laid back).

I personally go with the player gameplay style and generally disagree with the classification by time played (seeing as i know several players whose attitude and playstyle i cannot describe in any other way as hardcore, that play only a very limited amount of hours per week)

 

I kinda agree with you. Someone that plays only occasionally ATs with his/hers team and is very passionate about it, yeah its hard to classify.

But on the other hand the game is labelled as "casual" friendly mostly because you don't need to constantly invest time in it. Can return anytime and still be competitive. And this is actually really great for casual raiders. I dont think any other game (really any other, single or multiplayer) rpg can offer that, raiding specifically.

For example I used to play FPS hardcore. Like clan tournaments (on clanbase if anyone knows). I barely play it anymore. Maybe a few times per year. When I do play it I play pickup groups on TS, not public servers. I play it when we do it with friends (just some old quakers) and we do it properly. I do see it as casual. Its mostly occasional fun with friends but game play wise we play it hardcore. 

[Rhingeim.3974]

Isn't this meta already tuned down? 

 

I've managed to succeed on first try with full group (and failed once while running with crowd), where all players was splitted by commander to go into 3 directions. 

 

And I was that guy who "WTF is happening and WTF should I do" literally for the whole last fight. 

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Cuks.8241 said:

I kinda agree with you. Someone that plays only occasionally ATs with his/hers team and is very passionate about it, yeah its hard to classify.

But on the other hand the game is labelled as "casual" friendly mostly because you don't need to constantly invest time in it. Can return anytime and still be competitive. And this is actually really great for casual raiders. I dont think any other game (really any other, single or multiplayer) rpg can offer that, raiding specifically.

Not only that. It was also labeled that way because it was not instance focused/endgame focused, and its core was story and OW. But it mainly became known as a casual game because of the type of players that it mostly appealed to. Not the relatively small group of semi-casual in time invested but more hardcore in type of content and approach to gameplay players, but the OW crowd. The ultra-casual in approach to playing OW crowd.

 

[Astralporing.1957]

Just now, Rhingeim.3974 said:

Isn't this meta already tuned down? 

Yes and no. Yes, it was tuned down. No, it's still way overtuned for a group of average OW players.

 

[Rhingeim.3974]

1 minute ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes and no. Yes, it was tuned down. No, it's still way overtuned for a group of average OW players.

 

Ohh, I see... Well, at least ANet can give more time for the event. As far as I see, if group didn't split up, there will be no time for complete first phase.. 

[yoni.7015]

17 minutes ago, Rhingeim.3974 said:

Isn't this meta already tuned down? 

Yes it was tuned down several times and the success rate is now way over 60%. Most squads succeed with a minimum of organization and communication, even complete pug groups. 

Edited June 3, 2022 by yoni.7015

[Gorem.8104]

7 hours ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

Who came up with this line? ("non-consensual raid boss")
I keep seeing it being parroted by one side of this debate...
Does anyone know where this line came from?

I'm glad Erise eventually actually told you where the phrase came from, and that it is actually the full non-consensual raiding in general - as it was from Mukluk in front of hundreds of twitch viewers (basically, more people watching him then people who actually use these forums) all agreeing with him that it takes as much work as preparing for a raid to do the DE meta. It has been incredibly slightly tweaked since then to make it easier for organised groups to beat compared to when he made the comment of course, as at launch DE was so badly, so incredibly badly designed that even fully organised raid squads were failing. Giving no hope for random squads that are able to beat most any other meta in the entire game. 

Muk's basically this games best face out there and the games best promoter. If people actually watched GW2 content he'd be huge. My guess is he loves his current community 🙂. He did post a vid on the topic before, was the last time I saw him talking about it, vids about an hour long. With of course the majority agreeing with him as the raiding community in any game is always a games tiniest community. 

Edited June 3, 2022 by Gorem.8104

[mythical.6315]

I suggest not using “casual” or “hardcore” at all to describe groups of players. There are numerous definitions for them and there have been people who pick and choose which definition to use in order to support their argument. 

[Erise.5614]

24 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

Yes it was tuned down several times and the success rate is now way over 60%. Most squads succeed with a minimum of organization and communication, even complete pug groups. 

Did ANet share an update of that number? Or is this an assumption you presented as a fact? 

Edited June 3, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Ellon.4316]

I have been lurking this topic but i get the feeling it falls to the same argument all the other DE meta topics have. "DPS" vs "mechanics", the finer points of what it means to be "casual" or "hardcore", how rewards are lacking and the occasional "git gud" post.

But all those things are small details and miss the bigger picture of the DE meta and following turtle collection. I see the meta as a "step-up" for players. Let's be honest, starting to play raids or strikes is kinda hard. It's a brick wall of abbreviations, organization, boon composition and DPS checks. To make matters worse your 1 in 10 people so during the strike or raid you have a big responsibility. It really is a big barrier to entry for a lot of players.

Now enter DE, a meta that is a bit more difficult. Still not raid or strike level but you are challenged. It is on the story path so it's hard to miss (marionette, triple trouble, etc. are all outside the main story path). During the meta and prep-fase people will talk about alac, quickness and group composition. Terms you never heard before but slowly pick up on, you even start to understand why these things matter.

Then after completing the DE meta a few times that brick wall for instanced content becomes manageable. The game even challenges you to do the kaineng strike mission and after 10 years of playing i finally completed my first strike mission.

The challenge of the DE meta did a lot for me:
- Increased my knowledge of the game, increased my dps by alot (4k to 35k)
- Learned to play support builds
- Got me into strikes, still have to do raids but at i'm confident enough i can do this
- Other commanders inspired me to start commanding myself, thanks Yoni and others for organized runs 🙂
- Even cooking to 500 so i can provide additional boons. Yep i lose gold playing the meta

You might not be interested in some or all of this, which is fine. Everyone has their own goals to work towards. But remember that the DE meta is the only unmissable challenge in the entire game for people to learn and get confident enough to try instanced content. Now my story might be unique, it might not, i really don't know. Still the net positive this meta provided for me and possibly others far outweigh the "spike" in difficulty.

[yoni.7015]

5 minutes ago, Ellon.4316 said:

I have been lurking this topic but i get the feeling it falls to the same argument all the other DE meta topics have. "DPS" vs "mechanics", the finer points of what it means to be "casual" or "hardcore", how rewards are lacking and the occasional "git gud" post.

But all those things are small details and miss the bigger picture of the DE meta and following turtle collection. I see the meta as a "step-up" for players. Let's be honest, starting to play raids or strikes is kinda hard. It's a brick wall of abbreviations, organization, boon composition and DPS checks. To make matters worse your 1 in 10 people so during the strike or raid you have a big responsibility. It really is a big barrier to entry for a lot of players.

Now enter DE, a meta that is a bit more difficult. Still not raid or strike level but you are challenged. It is on the story path so it's hard to miss (marionette, triple trouble, etc. are all outside the main story path). During the meta and prep-fase people will talk about alac, quickness and group composition. Terms you never heard before but slowly pick up on, you even start to understand why these things matter.

Then after completing the DE meta a few times that brick wall for instanced content becomes manageable. The game even challenges you to do the kaineng strike mission and after 10 years of playing i finally completed my first strike mission.

The challenge of the DE meta did a lot for me:
- Increased my knowledge of the game, increased my dps by alot (4k to 35k)
- Learned to play support builds
- Got me into strikes, still have to do raids but at i'm confident enough i can do this
- Other commanders inspired me to start commanding myself, thanks Yoni and others for organized runs 🙂
- Even cooking to 500 so i can provide additional boons. Yep i lose gold playing the meta

You might not be interested in some or all of this, which is fine. Everyone has their own goals to work towards. But remember that the DE meta is the only unmissable challenge in the entire game for people to learn and get confident enough to try instanced content. Now my story might be unique, it might not, i really don't know. Still the net positive this meta provided for me and possibly others far outweigh the "spike" in difficulty.

That’s good to hear 🙂 and I am sure a lot of players feel the same. 

[Silent.6137]

34 minutes ago, Gorem.8104 said:

 (basically, more people watching him then people who actually use these forums)

I seriously doubt that. Just looking at Game Update Notes May 24, 2022, that's 14.2K views for a single thread. He's definitely my favorite for GW2 contents. And some of his older videos certainly get lots of views. But they're all cumulative and myself alone probably contributed to quite a few of those views.

[Erise.5614]

45 minutes ago, Ellon.4316 said:

I have been lurking this topic but i get the feeling it falls to the same argument all the other DE meta topics have. "DPS" vs "mechanics", the finer points of what it means to be "casual" or "hardcore", how rewards are lacking and the occasional "git gud" post.

But all those things are small details and miss the bigger picture of the DE meta and following turtle collection. I see the meta as a "step-up" for players. Let's be honest, starting to play raids or strikes is kinda hard. It's a brick wall of abbreviations, organization, boon composition and DPS checks. To make matters worse your 1 in 10 people so during the strike or raid you have a big responsibility. It really is a big barrier to entry for a lot of players.

Now enter DE, a meta that is a bit more difficult. Still not raid or strike level but you are challenged. It is on the story path so it's hard to miss (marionette, triple trouble, etc. are all outside the main story path). During the meta and prep-fase people will talk about alac, quickness and group composition. Terms you never heard before but slowly pick up on, you even start to understand why these things matter.

Then after completing the DE meta a few times that brick wall for instanced content becomes manageable. The game even challenges you to do the kaineng strike mission and after 10 years of playing i finally completed my first strike mission.

The challenge of the DE meta did a lot for me:
- Increased my knowledge of the game, increased my dps by alot (4k to 35k)
- Learned to play support builds
- Got me into strikes, still have to do raids but at i'm confident enough i can do this
- Other commanders inspired me to start commanding myself, thanks Yoni and others for organized runs 🙂
- Even cooking to 500 so i can provide additional boons. Yep i lose gold playing the meta

You might not be interested in some or all of this, which is fine. Everyone has their own goals to work towards. But remember that the DE meta is the only unmissable challenge in the entire game for people to learn and get confident enough to try instanced content. Now my story might be unique, it might not, i really don't know. Still the net positive this meta provided for me and possibly others far outweigh the "spike" in difficulty.

I am genuinely curious. In what specific way did DE support you in this journey besides finding a guild?

(which is also possible in plenty of other meta trains and other formats)

I'm happy it worked out for you. But I do find it curious how exactly the current format of the event fostered this experience to you and how that might lead to yoni extrapolating this anecdote to "a lot of players".

And, as second question. Can you see how the event and its format could come across as misleading and problematic as well? Or should everyone have to go through that experience and the extremely prominently featured "step up" in OW is therefore just the thing this game needs? 

[Yellow Rainbow.6142]

I already quit this meta like month ago and not going back in this state.  In fact, it left such a sour taste in my mouth. I seldomly go to EOD map. Also, I will not be buying any more expansion or spending diamond.

I have already reduced my gametime in GW2 by 75%. Hopefully, I can quit this game soon.

[Erise.5614]

1 hour ago, Silent.6137 said:

I seriously doubt that. Just looking at Game Update Notes May 24, 2022, that's 14.2K views for a single thread. He's definitely my favorite for GW2 contents. And some of his older videos certainly get lots of views. But they're all cumulative and myself alone probably contributed to quite a few of those views.

I mean. Gorem was wrong about the context and numbers. But Mukluk's video where he mentioned it has 36k views. Forum numbers are on a "per request" counter. So if I refresh now it will increase by 1. Meaning just the people commenting in this thread will likely have caused dozens if not hundreds of views each. 

Whereas YouTube has a quite elaborate system that requires substantial view time to acknowledge it. Meaning each of the 36k is on average more significant than 14k on the forum.

I'd be genuinely surprised if more than 36k individual people use the forum to almost exclusively lurk. Because as for commenters, it's really down to like a few hundred who at least semi regularly participate in some form. 

[Khisanth.2948]

On 5/31/2022 at 12:04 PM, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

There is somehow no Tequatl-effect with that meta. When they reworked Tequatl it was difficult as kitten. It failed over and over and over, while we slowly learned the mechanics and how to counter certain problems. Some servers - this was before the Megaserver was introduced - accomplished the first successful Tequatl several weeks after patch. I am from Ring of Fire server, we were among the last - due to our special understanding of teamwork. 

BUT, after some time the siutation balanced out. Almost every run where people put in some effort is a success nowadays. Even unorganized runs can succeed. We only run into problems when there are either too few people or no one wants to split up. My guild did a Tequatl run a while ago, where we started with ~ 15 players. Then opened an LFG and did advertisement on the mapcht. Tequatl did beat the kitten out of us, but in the end we still managed to take it down.

DE does not have this level of balance. Which, in my opinion, indicates that the difficulty is a bit off the chart. We have different opinions about that topic. We have plenty of people ingame and on the forums who love hard content and would even sign up for reducing the kill timer by 2 minutes. It cannot be challenging enough. To each their own. But this is an open world meta event, not a raid-wing or strike-mission. 

If ANet does not want to change anything, so be it. The meta-event failed its purpose. These kind of events are designed to unify the communty, but the DE meta splits the community. People are turning away from it. I am not a professional gamer and I do not earn my living from beating up some pixels in an MMORPG. So I will not dedicate a huge chunk of my limited freetime to a questionable meta-event. As I have said before, I play gw2 to have fun and relax from work, not to work even harder.

You are leaving out an extremely important of history for Teq.

It used to be immune to crits. That made a lot of stats as well as traits useless. Condi stacks were also capped. After the change they did buff its HP, supposedly so it would be about the same as before but there are many factors that are hard to account for once the immune to crit part is removed.

Eventually it also became possible to have 100% uptime on alacrity and quickness.

Teq simply got powercreeped to death.

On 5/31/2022 at 4:27 PM, danielrjones.8759 said:

No one in the group act or talks like an elitist. 

Are you sure about that? 😛

Based on the posts here and reddit I am pretty sure expecting people to read OR follow instructions is considered elitist because HOW DARE YOU TELL ME WHAT TO DO?!

[Silent.6137]

33 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

I mean. Gorem was wrong about the context and numbers. But Mukluk's video where he mentioned it has 36k views. Forum numbers are on a "per request" counter. So if I refresh now it will increase by 1. Meaning just the people commenting in this thread will likely have caused dozens if not hundreds of views each. 

Whereas YouTube has a quite elaborate system that requires substantial view time to acknowledge it. Meaning each of the 36k is on average more significant than 14k on the forum.

I'd be genuinely surprised if more than 36k individual people use the forum to almost exclusively lurk. Because as for commenters, it's really down to like a few hundred who at least semi regularly participate in some form. 

The main reason why I chose the update thread. A thread I will only visit once or twice depending on the updates. I don't know how the Youtube system works but if I'd to view any of the videos on GW2, it's because I intentionally do a search. And I'd spend a certain amount of time to view the contents for what I'm looking for, not just open and close.

I don't disagree with your points. But more people knows about the forum than about Mukluk, since it's for the game they're playing. More people will be visiting the forum even if just to do a quick browsing of the update thread.

[Biff.5312]

I think it's a good thing to make it difficult, so that it can keep people engaged until the next expansion (which may never come)... To finish all the new content quickly and easily should not be anyone's goal. However, so much time is put into an attempt at the meta, that I do think even if it fails there should be some partial rewards so people don't feel like they wasted their day.

[yoni.7015]

8 minutes ago, Biff.5312 said:

I think it's a good thing to make it difficult, so that it can keep people engaged until the next expansion (which may never come)... To finish all the new content quickly and easily should not be anyone's goal. However, so much time is put into an attempt at the meta, that I do think even if it fails there should be some partial rewards so people don't feel like they wasted their day.

I agree. It shouldn’t be another auto attack meta event, we have enough of them already. And they clearly should buff the rewards. 

[Gehenna.3625]

14 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said:

According to dictionary I see: relaxed and unconcerned, not regular or permanent. A person who does something irregularly.

Seems pretty straightforward. Naturally its a relative term.

another definition of a casual gamer: A person who plays games but aren't competitive. Usually they are just there to be social and have fun but if they end up losing in the game they wouldn't mind. They don't put in a lot of effort to try to win. They may or may not play long hours of games. A casual gamer doesn't place their gaming as a first priority.

You see for gaming terms it's better to go to the urban dictionary and look up "casual gamer" than to look up the term "casual" in a regular dictionary. 

 

[Gehenna.3625]

double post

 

Edited June 4, 2022 by Gehenna.3625

[Erise.5614]

50 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

I agree. It shouldn’t be another auto attack meta event, we have enough of them already. And they clearly should buff the rewards. 

But it's quite literally more of an auto attack event than several others!?

So long as you have a build designed for AutoAttacking you can move and do less than during, for example, Dragonstorm or Dragon Stand. 

The problem me and several others are talking about is that the central "skill" tested is understanding of the trait and gear system. Not skills that relate to the action during the encounter. 

[yoni.7015]

23 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

But it's quite literally more of an auto attack event than several others!?

So long as you have a build designed for AutoAttacking you can move and do less than during, for example, Dragonstorm or Dragon Stand. 

The problem me and several others are talking about is that the central "skill" tested is understanding of the trait and gear system. Not skills that relate to the action during the encounter. 

With auto attack meta event I mean an event where you don’t have to pay attention and can watch Netflix while doing it. 
Move less than during Dragonstorm? Not really. During the final fight in Dragon Stand you can just stand on your island the whole fight, maybe move for the bomb phase  

What’s so wrong about understanding the trait and gear system? But you don’t even have to understand that for the meta, you could just pick a viable build from a site and you are good to go. 

Edited June 4, 2022 by yoni.7015