WvW Why No Support class rewards.

[Tubalz.9831]

When is ANET going to provide the same rewards based on Heals and Support as they do for kills?  It is very difficult to get players to run these comps when there is so little reward for them.  Seems like it would be a simple change, but the again I am not a game designer.

 

 

Edited June 28, 2022 by Tubalz.9831

[LordHT.8297]

 

I've donated hundreds of bags to support players since they removed retaliation.. It's not just the supports that are losing rewards. And yes, they need to fix it. 

[Zyreva.1078]

Probably sooner than providing equal rewards for roamers. And with that i mean equal to current zerg support rewards.

[Dawdler.8521]

Did you forget that healing/cleansing friendlies already tags everything they tag and give you loot as long as you hit the enemy once even if its like 10 damage?

Or what, is the firebrands bragging every night about how many bags they get all lying?

[lotus.5672]

The reward is the fun you get playing minstrel scrapper and fb! Oh so much fun! Aren't you having fun?

[Merrex.5384]

When I used to play support in DAOC  If I was able to keep a player alive in a fight and they managed to get a kill I also got credit for that kill. If was a great system which rewarded support players.

This game only rewards the DPS players. In large scale battles the best rewards come from large AOE Damage skills as you can tag more players and have more chances to get a kill. 

[subversiontwo.7501]

EVE's API has a rather cool way of handling this stuff that could easily translate to GW2 too and deal with several of the fairness issues with rewards from kills.

The API looks at who made the killing blow and then they tag on every player who did damage to the target and every support that supported the killer.

That would turn peak rewards from tagging to killing blows - which both promotes a more precise type of aggression (kills) and balances out the different scales (just one killer for one death) to some degree while tagging on a more limited amount of rewards to all players who have added to 1-1 K-D.

It would mean that more rewards are still distributed for each kill the more players that add to it, but it gives the developers two points to balance that is still rooted in scaling up from a 1-1 root and balances damage and support more evenly.

Spoiler

 

So, essentially large still rewards more than small and damage still rewards more than support (as party priority mechanics makes it less reliable to land support on an off-party attacker than to add damage to a focus target) but the differences are going to be considerably smaller and have far more additional opportunity and RnG/likelyhood involved as even supports can stomp or land the blow however less likely. Players being motivated to focus their damage more and adding more burst rather than looking at dps and spreading their damage is not necessarily a bad thing for GW2 and WvW. It could also reward the downstate blow and the killing blow equally, with just some added complexity.

A balance could for example be 1 and 0.25 - meaning a solo scoring 5 kills gets a reward of 5 while a player in group of 5 that score 5 kills that manages to land one killing blow and assist on four additional kills gets a reward of 2 (and has to assist on 4 kills for every kill a solo scores). That could easily be tweaked to 0.2 or whatever but it can, for presumably obvious reasons, never be scaled as low as 0.1 or less, especially with diminishing returns in mind.

They could easily improve capture rewards too, since those sit behind timers. Something like a 50s reward for a cap when it has a 5min timer is not an overly attractive or exploitable payout. Defending is a bit more difficult, even if there are defense events because it is so hard to determine what kind of a threat begins the event. However, there could probably be some rewards added to killing siege if they can find some way to balance it and make it unexploitable. Considering how cheap siege is that is not a good enough balancing point in and of itself. If siege cost more it could be but it would perhaps be better to add some sort of timegate to it, if you go that way for defense.

It is not something I would go to bat for, but just spontaneously like this, I don't see any major issues should siege be rebalanced to cost 10-20s and be lucrative to put on a 1-1 trading-hands mechanic whether that is a straight 1-1 to killing blow or some sort of 1:1 balance of cost that assumes a killing-blow+assist spread that doesn't inflate past the purchase cost (so players just can't spam down siege to create gold).

We could maybe even reverse the system and have a "pot" for each kill that then gets divided between kill and assist but that is not a perfect system either as that would also make certain types of content just stand out in a bit too much of a favoured light. I would favour a faucet for player kills and some sort of break-even for siege.

 

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by subversiontwo.7501

[Dralor.3701]

4 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Did you forget that healing/cleansing friendlies already tags everything they tag and give you loot as long as you hit the enemy once even if its like 10 damage?

Or what, is the firebrands bragging every night about how many bags they get all lying?

I get way more bags as dps than support. Also usually playing with a real group while playing support so theoretically getting more kills with less reward.

[ArchonWing.9480]

They should just allow kill credit for anyone in your party, as long as you were in combat with them.

As for scouts and roamers , they could make it so that shared participation gives whatever the commander loots. So if the commander gets a loot bag, you also get a loot bag. The current shared participation is pretty lackluster-- all it really does is save them from taking a sentry or killing guards every now and then.

A lot of people don't realize how many fights wouldn't even happen without good scouting, alongside all the tactical advantage it comes with. As a result, their rewards need to better reflect their contribution to the group's success.

Edited June 29, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Xenesis.6389]

Being the top pick for every single group and running around with 49 bodyguards is not enough reward?

🤡

[Hesione.9412]

1 hour ago, Dralor.3701 said:

I get way more bags as dps than support. Also usually playing with a real group while playing support so theoretically getting more kills with less reward.

My experience:

DPS: lots of bags

Support scrapper: quite a few bags, although not as many as DPS. Somewhere between 50-75% of the number DPS gets.

Support FB: maybe 2, my max for 2 hours at peak times has been under 15.

 

Conclusion: being a stab bot is the problem because you don't get kill credits if most of what you are doing is stab.

[Dralor.3701]

Yeah should have mentioned class, fb is the worst for bags.

[Littlekenny.4196]

4 hours ago, Hesione.9412 said:

My experience:

DPS: lots of bags

Support scrapper: quite a few bags, although not as many as DPS. Somewhere between 50-75% of the number DPS gets.

Support FB: maybe 2, my max for 2 hours at peak times has been under 15.

 

Conclusion: being a stab bot is the problem because you don't get kill credits if most of what you are doing is stab.

Should still be throwing swiftness symbols in to proc enemy aegis and using holy strike, shield 4, mace 3, tome 1 pull, which can all tag although still less loot than a DPS. Also from the time I've played on NA it was 95% throwing ranged damage at eachother so in that scenario I can see getting 15 bags.

[Hesione.9412]

1 hour ago, Littlekenny.4196 said:

Should still be throwing swiftness symbols in to proc enemy aegis and using holy strike, shield 4, mace 3, tome 1 pull, which can all tag although still less loot than a DPS. Also from the time I've played on NA it was 95% throwing ranged damage at eachother so in that scenario I can see getting 15 bags.

Done all that, still no bags.

[ArchonWing.9480]

10 hours ago, Littlekenny.4196 said:

Should still be throwing swiftness symbols in to proc enemy aegis and using holy strike, shield 4, mace 3, tome 1 pull, which can all tag although still less loot than a DPS. Also from the time I've played on NA it was 95% throwing ranged damage at eachother so in that scenario I can see getting 15 bags.

True. There is no reason how a firebrand can get less bags than scrapper unless they're just camping tomes and doing nothing else.   Reflects alone should account for a few as well. The only case where it could happen is if you just faceroll the enemy so they die so fast many can't tag them, but that's not really the game's fault.

[Kanto.2485]

Dudes, play a night as Scourge and one as FB/Scrapper and you'll see the difference in loot and WXP.

 

As a suppport you get like 4 wxp per kill, as a dps you see 250 wxp kills.

 

Maining support guard since core game in wvw, i'm barely rank 2000. Dps players with half my playtime are easily on diamond.

[Zyreva.1078]

15 minutes ago, Kanto.2485 said:

 

As a suppport you get like 4 wxp per kill, as a dps you see 250 wxp kills.

WXP per kill does not depend on dmg dealt. Everyone who manages to get credit for a kill will get the same amount.

[Hesione.9412]

2 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

True. There is no reason how a firebrand can get less bags than scrapper unless they're just camping tomes and doing nothing else.   Reflects alone should account for a few as well. The only case where it could happen is if you just faceroll the enemy so they die so fast many can't tag them, but that's not really the game's fault.

Yes, clearly I am utterly playing all my WvW characters wrong. 🙄

 

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

WXP per kill does not depend on dmg dealt. Everyone who manages to get credit for a kill will get the same amount.

Also max wxp from a player is 60 (ignoring bonuses). It only varies based on how long the player has been alive.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Dawdler.8521

[Dralor.3701]

Just at a loss that people almost seem to be defending this, probably the same people complaining in map chat we have no sustain. 
The higher the tier and larger the fights the greater this gap between dps and support rewards get as well.

[ArchonWing.9480]

5 hours ago, Hesione.9412 said:

Yes, clearly I am utterly playing all my WvW characters wrong. 🙄

 

Who knows. If you think you're doing everything right and can't improve then none of that applies to you. Or maybe you just happen to play scrapper better. It's just that 2 bags an hour seems pretty low.

I do happen to know many are not good at playing support, so that post is mostly about that.

edit: Also I suppose it depends on party comp. With enough might stacks  even minstrels will hit for a bit but if your party is not generating good might you may not do enough damage to tag things.

Edited June 30, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Doggie.3184]

I been waiting for support bag credit forever. 😞 Don't other WvW games like ESO already have it? and like.. at release?

[Dralor.3701]

18 minutes ago, Doggie.3184 said:

I been waiting for support bag credit forever. 😞 Don't other WvW games like ESO already have it? and like.. at release?

Played bard and shaman in DAOC and the rewards were pretty much the same I think? Just got credit for being in a group though those two classes might be bad examples as they were AOE tagging.

[Hesione.9412]

1 hour ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Who knows. If you think you're doing everything right and can't improve then none of that applies to you. Or maybe you just happen to play scrapper better. It's just that 2 bags an hour seems pretty low.

I do happen to know many are not good at playing support, so that post is mostly about that.

edit: Also I suppose it depends on party comp. With enough might stacks  even minstrels will hit for a bit but if your party is not generating good might you may not do enough damage to tag things.

You're right, it does depend on party comp, gear, and also what utility skills are being run.

 

Note that I am not the only support pointing out the lack of bags. My guess is that most of us saying this are support FBs.

[Aeolus.3615]

On 6/29/2022 at 3:34 AM, Dralor.3701 said:

I get way more bags as dps than support. Also usually playing with a real group while playing support so theoretically getting more kills with less reward.

Players on most meta  support builds tend not to play that offensive  they spend more time casting more boon spam utilities than actually doing anything else, basicly every minstrell boon spammer build.

As a zealot with some cleric trinkets hetrald/ventari setup i can keep my power above 2k and do damage while making health bars go up, and for a matter of fact i cant enable the autoloot option cause it tends in group play to fill my bags quite fast.

Isnt there a soft value to take credits on kills 700-1k damage? Since almost every one in wvw seams to play bunker stats i dont imagine their damage go much hight than 400-600 unless playing condi tanks.

Edited June 30, 2022 by Aeolus.3615