Harvest Temple CM <1%

[Heibi.4251]

I'm happy to hear and congratulate the very few groups that have beaten the Harvest Temple CM. However, I must ask ANET, are you aiming to create content for less  than 1% of the game's population? With so few clears of this content, which I do applaud as challenging content, have you even considered that you have lost focus on the rest of GW2. You bent over backwards to create and introduction to Raids, yet you created a CM that is even harder than Doom CM. Seriously, that is not an intro to Raids. You've bypassed Raid CM difficulty. Very few will be able to complete this CM, yet you spent so much time on it. I look back at Dragons End META before you adjusted and toned it down. The groups, 30 total people, have cleared this out of tens of thousands of players. Are you really going to target your releases at less than 1% of the population? Sure there is a path now, but is it desired repeatable content or just simply "I want to complete it so I can get the achievement/title" content? Look inward.

[Cyninja.2954]

True, and yet this content has generated more buzz and gotten more attention of outside media and potentially new players than any of the open world content of the last 5 years combined.

 

Now don't get me wrong, I personally am thirsting for some more story and the season 1 return barely keeps me afloat (mostly because I am looking forward to the final fight which I missed the first time around). I really hope there will be some announcement for season 6 some time soon.

 

Still, for years instanced content got neglected, players demanded easier entry to existing instanced content in order to not have to bend to toxic raider elitists and the common sentiment was always: who cares if players who enjoy instanced content get any?

 

Not that great a feeling now is it? 😑

[Shuzuru.3651]

Since I hear it a few times before, let's burst a bubble on a point. 

"Strikes are a stepping stone to raid"

No, it's not. Are at least, it was during IBS, but the direction changed before EoD, and there is article about both subject, it's not something hidden, here's the new direction summarized :

"Strikes are the new 10man content, with encounter used in easy mode in the story, Normal mode is the middle/stepping stones, and CM is the Raid/RaidCM difficuly mode"

 

So yeah, it was excepted HT CM to be hard, as announced by the devs. 

But it took 5days to beat Dhuum CM, the same time as this one. People will find strategies over time, so it will be easier as time passed

Edited July 14, 2022 by Shuzuru.3651

[Cronospere.8143]

It's a challenge mode for a reason. Let the hardcore players have that, while I play the normal mode until i'm ready to do the CM(which may be never). I don't mind if they deliver content which is for less than 1% like they do now. Better with a CM for the 1% combined with a normal mode for the rest of us, instead of content only for the 1%.. 

Edited July 14, 2022 by Cronospere.8143

[Labjax.2465]

Could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's an image thing. They want to attract end-game players from other games. To establish an image that will draw bigger names from those other games, they need challenges in the game that are considered to be very tightly tuned. Something that I don't think the game has generally had, historically. Marketing, in other words. Something like: develop reputation for game that you can experience some of the hardest challenges in MMOs here -> get more end-game raiders from other games playing the game -> those raiders develop a system of competition through world firsts and such that draws the attention of less skilled players who want to be part of it -> those less skilled players fill out the bulk of end-game PvE scene, while the top ones keep the hype for competition strong. In the end, quite a bit more than 1% if they are successful with it.

The formula of an average progression raiding game is kind of what I'm trying to get at here.

Whether that'd be healthy for the game is a whole other question and I guess just comes down to opinion.

Personally, I never wanted this to be a raiding game. If anything, I started playing it to get away from raiding games. But as long as they continue making extensive open world content, I can live with it.

[Cyninja.2954]

35 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

The formula of an average progression raiding game is kind of what I'm trying to get at here.

Whether that'd be healthy for the game is a whole other question and I guess just comes down to opinion.

I'm not sure they are aiming to promote this game to be an average raiding game, more that there is some challenging content to work towards. Combined with the flat gearing, this makes for a rather unique experience in the MMO market.

Also let's hold our horses, yes there was a huge time-span in which no new content was released pre EoD, while the developers were working on EoD. EoD which is dominantly open world content which some might forget. EoD which released not even 4 months ago with season 1, again open world and story content, releasing after EoD.

Meanwhile instanced content (and let's not even talk about Spvp and WvW here) has seen content neglects of years at a time.

This isn't some big "shift" away from open world content. It's a minor diversion of resources in an attempt to offer more than ONLY open world and story content.

Quote

Personally, I never wanted this to be a raiding game. If anything, I started playing it to get away from raiding games. But as long as they continue making extensive open world content, I can live with it.

It's not a raiding game, never was.

I will agree with your sentiment though (and I am sure open world content and story will remain the main and majority of content delivered): it's not a competition and players, no matter which content they enjoy (in case they do not participate in multiple segments of content, which I believe most do), should be happy that every aspect of the game gets developed. It's healthier for the game and offers content to a wider player base which just might branch out to other areas.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Avatar.3568]

Having a Boss that is counting as ultimate Challenge is one of the Key Things that are Missing in this Game, There was No Challenge Like this before.

If people/guilds come to this Game, they have now a reason to Go beyond their Limits to master the Challenge. I Hardly believe that people don't rly Care about the rewards, but they Care to get a piece of content that is rewarding to Finish it

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Shuzuru.3651 said:

But it took 5days to beat Dhuum CM, the same time as this one.

26 hours. Although (as mentioned in the same reddit thread), it took so long only because they had to swap most of the team halfway (only 3 players stayed throughout all the attempts).

I wonder how that same stat looked for HT CM.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[Shuzuru.3651]

14 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

26 hours. Although (as mentioned in the same reddit thread), it took so long only because they had to swap most of the team halfway (only 3 players stayed throughout all the attempts).

I wonder how that same stat looked for HT CM.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hall_of_Chains

28 November 2017

4 December 2017

 

Look like around five days to me

 

[Danikat.8537]

It took a few days for the first kill on the revamped Tequatl and something like a week for the first Triple Wurm kill. I think some of the raids have been the same but I never paid much attention to them. So it's not the first time GW2 has introduced harder content which most people cannot do at first. I'm sure that like those older ones over time more people will get to know it, new tactics will be discovered or introduced and some degree of power creep will happen and it will become something that most people can find complete if they want to.

Although it's also a strike CM so it wouldn't surprise me if the majority of GW2 players never try. One of the nice things about GW2 is it's very open-ended so everyone can focus on the things that interest them without being required to play other parts of the game in order to progress. I appreciate Anet having difficult PvP instances for those who want it, but I'm sure there's a lot of players who prefer WvW or PvP or big meta events, or role-playing with friends or whatever who will never have any desire to try, not because there's something wrong with the content but because it's not what they want to do with their time.

[The Boz.2038]

4 hours ago, Shuzuru.3651 said:

But it took 5days to beat Dhuum CM, the same time as this one. People will find strategies over time, so it will be easier as time passed

Dhuum CM used to be hella hard, tho. The 10% phase was not a reprieve of mechanics, for example; you'd still get random -30% damage because of Junior, bombs, and shackles during it.

[Shadowmoon.7986]

The content has been out less than a month. Give it time and more group will get the clear, especially once they fix power builds from the last balance patch.  Odds are this will be the hardest content for years, if you were logical, scarlet cm from ls1 should around one of the easiest cm.

[Randulf.7614]

Those players are allowed to have something. Not everything has to be for the masses and it won’t be a case of everything else dropped for one instance. I’m not in the slightest bit interested, but I don’t begrudge raiders getting these on occasion.

[Asum.4960]

I don't see <1% of the content in the game being for <1% of the games population as a problem, especially if that same content serves very well as aspirational and marketing material, enriching the game and player base for and of the other >99%.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Asum.4960

[mercury ranique.2170]

I remeber DOA when they added mallyx. It took several weeks before the first group defeated him. After that methods where refined and more tricks where found, resulting in a very decent success rate.

Just cause it is for 1% now, doesn't mean it should stay for 1%. I have no doubt that more and more clears will happen now the road is paved.
 

[Jzaku.9765]

6 hours ago, Heibi.4251 said:

I'm happy to hear and congratulate the very few groups that have beaten the Harvest Temple CM. However, I must ask ANET, are you aiming to create content for less  than 1% of the game's population? With so few clears of this content, which I do applaud as challenging content, have you even considered that you have lost focus on the rest of GW2. You bent over backwards to create and introduction to Raids, yet you created a CM that is even harder than Doom CM. Seriously, that is not an intro to Raids. You've bypassed Raid CM difficulty. Very few will be able to complete this CM, yet you spent so much time on it. I look back at Dragons End META before you adjusted and toned it down. The groups, 30 total people, have cleared this out of tens of thousands of players. Are you really going to target your releases at less than 1% of the population? Sure there is a path now, but is it desired repeatable content or just simply "I want to complete it so I can get the achievement/title" content? Look inward.

It's labeled "Challenge Mode" for a reason. You can do Normal Mode instead of complaining on the forums that content not made for you, doesn't appeal to you. 

[Einsof.1457]

Let the hatdcores have their fight. There's nothing wrong with that. 

[Farohna.6247]

5 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's an image thing. They want to attract end-game players from other games. To establish an image that will draw bigger names from those other games, they need challenges in the game that are considered to be very tightly tuned. Something that I don't think the game has generally had, historically. Marketing, in other words. Something like: develop reputation for game that you can experience some of the hardest challenges in MMOs here -> get more end-game raiders from other games playing the game -> those raiders develop a system of competition through world firsts and such that draws the attention of less skilled players who want to be part of it -> those less skilled players fill out the bulk of end-game PvE scene, while the top ones keep the hype for competition strong. In the end, quite a bit more than 1% if they are successful with it.

The formula of an average progression raiding game is kind of what I'm trying to get at here.

Whether that'd be healthy for the game is a whole other question and I guess just comes down to opinion.

Personally, I never wanted this to be a raiding game. If anything, I started playing it to get away from raiding games. But as long as they continue making extensive open world content, I can live with it.

I think this is a good observation...I feel like they're trying to say look we're a serious game, with serious hard content, not just fashion wars.  Steam release incentive?  

It's great that they're showing some love to raids.  I know the raid community has long felt neglected (hugs to the WvW players and fractal advocates...don't think you'll get much else for a while).  And while these things should exist and be developed, it does feel like at the expense of the other areas of the game.  

I also started GW2 for a solid open world play experience, some fun group content.  I am not interested in raids having done enough in other games to satisfy that interest.  If GW2 pushes into being raid focused, I'll probably lose interest but there's enough content for all atm. 

The less than one percent for CM... definitely congratulations.  But it does seem an odd use of resources to push that.   I have not seen anyone in my guilds playing it.  Haven't seen anyone talking about it...other than on forums.   This feels like trying to catch a niche area and attract perceived hard core players.  How about show the same love to larger fan bases in the afore mentioned pvp, WvW, fractals?  

[yavi.3105]

Quote

aiming to create content for less  than 1% of the game's population

That is content that makes games exceptional. Lack of fear to create something unique that few people will enjoy. Be it a complex open world achievement (gen 2 leggies ftw), a title for extreme dedication (max WvW rank) or very hard instanced content it gives the rest goals to strive for.

Making everything available for everyone and giving in to "i'm entitled to do everything" crowd createst forgettable, lackluster experience.

But the second there is one (!) truly difficult encounter in the game already people start moaning as if it took from the things they enjoy and was forbidden to cater to that group of players. Noone "focused" on that content. You are getting s1 and got eod maps/aurene leggies for OW, pvp is dead, and wvw is a separate topic. The OP boils down to 'how dare they make something i don't enjoy' imho.

Edited July 14, 2022 by yavi.3105

[Gehenna.3625]

I mean, the game does need to have some content that is tough as nails or else there's nothing to aspire to anymore for raiders/strikers. I think this is a good thing in that respect.

[Heibi.4251]

25 minutes ago, yavi.3105 said:

That is content that makes games exceptional. Lack of fear to create something unique that few people will enjoy. Be it a complex open world achievement (gen 2 leggies ftw), a title for extreme dedication (max WvW rank) or very hard instanced content it gives the rest goals to strive for.

Making everything available for everyone and giving in to "i'm entitled to do everything" crowd createst forgettable, lackluster experience.

But the second there is one (!) truly difficult encounter in the game already people start moaning as if it took from the things they enjoy and was forbidden to cater to that group of players. Noone "focused" on that content. You are getting s1 and got eod maps/aurene leggies for OW, pvp is dead, and wvw is a separate topic. The OP boils down to 'how dare they make something i don't enjoy' imho.

You miss my point for the most part.  Strikes were supposed to be an "Introduction to raids." The basic modes accomplished that for the most part. HT was challenging as it was in normal mode. I enjoyed it. But the CM, from my friend who enjoys such content confirms that it was much harder than DOOM CM. How is that an "introduction"? 

 

All these people keep echoing "it's a challenge mode". Well, I DID say that in my opening post. So telling me something I already stated is kind of pointless. So the bigger question is, like I stated, will people regularly play the content or will they just want to get the clear and never go back to it again? That should always be at the forefront of creating any content. Why create content that no one wants to really repeat. The end game meta and Dragon's End is replayable and enjoyable now that it is balanced better and the quirks have been ironed out. But frustrating content aimed at such a small group will not be frequented by the community at large. Yes, we want harder content, but not step on the platform and die content. 

 

Edited July 14, 2022 by Heibi.4251

[Gehenna.3625]

34 minutes ago, Heibi.4251 said:

You miss my point for the most part.  Strikes were supposed to be an "Introduction to raids." The basic modes accomplished that for the most part. HT was challenging as it was in normal mode. I enjoyed it. But the CM, from my friend who enjoys such content confirms that it was much harder than DOOM CM. How is that an "introduction"? 

 

All these people keep echoing "it's a challenge mode". Well, I DID say that in my opening post. So telling me something I already stated is kind of pointless. So the bigger question is, like I stated, will people regularly play the content or will they just want to get the clear and never go back to it again? That should always be at the forefront of creating any content. Why create content that no one wants to really repeat. The end game meta and Dragon's End is replayable and enjoyable now that it is balanced better and the quirks have been ironed out. But frustrating content aimed at such a small group will not be frequented by the community at large. Yes, we want harder content, but not step on the platform and die content. 

 

It was my understanding that "introduction to raids" was a phrase they used for the normal strikes. So it seems unrealistic to apply that definition to the CMs as well. For me the strikes signalled the end of new raid content already when the normal modes came out.

And CMs being harder than raid bosses is a further sign to me that there will be no new raids in the future because CM Strikes have taken that niche. So perhaps you shouldn't get stuck on this phrase about strikes being introductory content but just accept that that only applies to normal mode strikes.

I mean, seriously, what did you expect CMs to be? What would fit between normal mode strikes and raids? Personally I don't see a lot of room there to warrant a CM mode that is still introductory content. So from my point of view they had to be at least on par with raids and not introductory content by definition.

And whether or not people will play it...well time will tell, but I already see plenty of groups forming for it. Perhaps it's still a niche group but there are people who play it. And whether or not this will be enough will be decided by Anet in the end.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Gehenna.3625

[Labjax.2465]

1 hour ago, yavi.3105 said:

Making everything available for everyone and giving in to "i'm entitled to do everything" crowd createst forgettable, lackluster experience.

I was with you until this part. People really need to stop abusing this word and calling people entitled just because they want something.

[Farohna.6247]

14 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

 

And whether or not people will play it...well time will tell, but I already see plenty of groups forming for it. Perhaps it's still a niche group but there are people who play it. And whether or not this will be enough will be decided by Anet in the end.

I sincerely hope it has longevity to it and that the CMs help the target audience want to build up and continue with them.  The game does not need more "dead" content that once the new wears off no one plays and Anet never revisits until 10 years later.

[Randulf.7614]

1 hour ago, Heibi.4251 said:

You miss my point for the most part.  Strikes were supposed to be an "Introduction to raids." The basic modes accomplished that for the most part. HT was challenging as it was in normal mode. I enjoyed it. But the CM, from my friend who enjoys such content confirms that it was much harder than DOOM CM. How is that an "introduction"? 

 

All these people keep echoing "it's a challenge mode". Well, I DID say that in my opening post. So telling me something I already stated is kind of pointless. So the bigger question is, like I stated, will people regularly play the content or will they just want to get the clear and never go back to it again? That should always be at the forefront of creating any content. Why create content that no one wants to really repeat. The end game meta and Dragon's End is replayable and enjoyable now that it is balanced better and the quirks have been ironed out. But frustrating content aimed at such a small group will not be frequented by the community at large. Yes, we want harder content, but not step on the platform and die content. 

 

I assume they have metrics from comparable content to know whether people repeat play or not to make that decision. So whether people will replay it has probably been answered in advance.

MMOs should throw it’s net far and wide. It’s healthy to cater to all sorts otherwise we get a generic, bland, boring game. Which is why I roll my eyes at the fishing haters when it’s aimed at people like me. I’ve got something there to enjoy and frankly there’s increasingly less of that in this game. Catering to the 1% is fine as long as it doesn’t consume a disproportionate amount of resources, which in this case, it hasn’t