Feedback on Feedback

[HotDelirium.7984]

On dev Nick Hernandez's twitter he retweeted a thread discussing feedback and for me, it was pretty profound. I had always given solutions AS feedback but after reading the thread I am starting to rethink this approach.  

So from now on I will be trying to reframe feedback in this even more constructive manner and I invite others to consider it as well.

Any further thoughts? 

[Randulf.7614]

There’s nothing new here and some stuff that’s just plain wrong imo. I don’t disagree with all of his thoughts and the mantra of  -  “feedback as if they are in the room with you” - has been what Anet have been asking for since day one on the forums. 
 

Also, suggesting solutions is absolutely fine to do. Yes, they are right that we don’t know what’s going on back end and assuming we do is its own problem, but developers actually aren’t stupid. They usually want and actively ask for solutions because they will extrapolate what they need and sometimes people will stumble across a solution they haven’t thought of or are too close to the project (I’ve seen a few this week on a board game feedback thread which has been utilised by the development team there and they hadn’t thought of it)
 

Basically don’t get hung up on form and template when it comes to feedback, but obey basic principles of politeness and maturity. And be honest. If you don’t like something say so. Sometimes emotive responses are helpful without constructive context (excluding any form of harassment and insults which should never be excused)

Edited July 24, 2022 by Randulf.7614

[Funky.4861]

I disagree with a few of his points.

 

"I feel..." statements are completely subjective, especially if they are based on niche or situational circumstances. This means they are easily dismissed if not backed up by objective facts.

 

If you're angry, still give your feedback with the caveat that you are in an emotional state and may be unreasonable.

 

Do suggest solutions to perceived problems or pain-points. The devs do read the forums and if something keeps being brought up in good faith, they should prioritise it for an upcoming patch.

 

Feel confident about criticising whatever aspect of the game frustrates you; you're unlikely to be the only one and it shows that you care. You catch more bees with honey than with vinegar...

[HotDelirium.7984]

6 hours ago, Randulf.7614 said:

There’s nothing new here and some stuff that’s just plain wrong imo. I don’t disagree with all of his thoughts and the mantra of  -  “feedback as if they are in the room with you” - has been what Anet have been asking for since day one on the forums. 
 

Also, suggesting solutions is absolutely fine to do. Yes, they are right that we don’t know what’s going on back end and assuming we do is its own problem, but developers actually aren’t stupid. They usually want and actively ask for solutions because they will extrapolate what they need and sometimes people will stumble across a solution they haven’t thought of or are too close to the project (I’ve seen a few this week on a board game feedback thread which has been utilised by the development team there and they hadn’t thought of it)
 

Basically don’t get hung up on form and template when it comes to feedback, but obey basic principles of politeness and maturity. And be honest. If you don’t like something say so. Sometimes emotive responses are helpful without constructive context (excluding any form of harassment and insults which should never be excused)

That gentleman is a dev themselves so when they (with their actual game industry experience) say this template is preferred over others- that's got to have some weight to it. Feedback and this game have a funny history but since dev N. Hernandez retweeted it that does seem like a cosign for that template. I wish they would extrapolate on this further beside just requesting "constructive critique."

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

Times like this I am reminded that I wouldn't personally get along with most of the people working at Anet.  I disagree quite vehemently with every point in this person's twitter thread.  Right now, I'm just trying to figure out a way to express my disagreement with this that wouldn't be considered insulting/harassment towards the staff.  I'll copy/paste the whole thread here so people don't have to go to twitter.

 

Quote

I see a lot of people confusing my colleagues saying don't harass them, and equating to not giving feedback. So I'm gonna give some examples of how to give good feedback:

Always imagine you are talking to the team/individual in person. If you just finished a game and are tilted AF, don't give feedback in that moment. Your anger will speak for you, and no one wants to show their angry side in first meetings/conversations.

Try to avoid suggesting solutions to problems. Yes this seems counter productive, but often times as players we have no idea what goes on in back end of a game, or how it's developed, how much a suggestion would cost, or what's planned for future releases.

Talk about only your experience. Try not to speak for the whole community, because opinions are subjective and differ from person to person. When giving your own feedback, avoid being hyperbolic. It's tempting, but it often does not strengthen your feedback.

"I feel" statements are really really useful. "I feel like my agency as a player is gone when I'm hit with this stun every 10 seconds, and is incredibly frustrating." "I feel like I'm not being challenged when I use xyz setup." This is way more constructive then you think.

Using this phrase will almost always devalue your feedback: "Do the devs even play their own game after releasing this change?" Of course we do. But how players interact with an update or new design is way different than we might so we might miss something. We're humans too.

Lastly if you can't say it nice don't say it at all. I have been an "elite gamer". Tons of achievements, tournaments, you name it. I understand when devs do something frustrating, but just be polite.

Players give feedback to be heard, but your feedback's delivery can help you be heard. Put your best foot forward! Also sometimes feedback is received and not acted upon. That doesn't mean your feedback is lost in the aether. It just means devs might have a different solution.

O.K., where to begin...

 

Quote

Always imagine you are talking to the team/individual in person. If you just finished a game and are tilted AF, don't give feedback in that moment. Your anger will speak for you, and no one wants to show their angry side in first meetings/conversations.

It's not a well known fact, but personally I am far meaner IRL than I am on the forums.  I'll avoid explaining the circumstances for now, but all of the ire I may draw from the devs and fellow forumers is my restrained, censored, intellectual side.  I act good as a moral duty, and not as any sort of innate demeanor.  IRL I am prone to fits of rage, glaring, shouting, and it takes quite a bit of effort to keep myself civil in society.  It is a common mantra that people are meaner on the internet than they are IRL, but this isn't necessarily true.  Honestly I doubt it is true at all, given the life I lived.  At least on the internet I don't have to duck fists and thrown rocks.

You'll notice a contradiction here in the third sentence.  We are encouraged not to show our anger, but then later told to use "I feel" statements.  Well, what if you feel angry?  Anger is a legitimate human emotion that deserves expression like every other.  In fact, the upcoming changes in the balance team and balance philosophy are precisely because so many people got angry.  Anger can, and often is, a productive and rational feeling that accomplishes many things.

 

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Try to avoid suggesting solutions to problems. Yes this seems counter productive, but often times as players we have no idea what goes on in back end of a game, or how it's developed, how much a suggestion would cost, or what's planned for future releases.

 

"Never trust anyone who tells you not to think."  It's a phrase I learned from my father, and it is probably the best advice he ever gave me.  I don't think he was wise enough to have deep thinks on epistemology.  Heck, I don't think he was wise enough to know he was referencing  1st Thessalonians 5.  It was something he noticed: when somebody tells you that you're not allowed to know something, it means they're trying to guile you.  To get more on the philosophical side, there is a pervasive belief in esoteric knowledge in the modern world.  That's magical thinking, or knowledge that cannot be known by or communicated to the average person. 

This, of course, is contradictory to the later statements that we're all human.  The reality is that diffused knowledge is always superior to centralized knowledge.  The devs may know more than the average person about this game, but that doesn't mean that they know more than all us combined.  We're all going to have insights they're unaware of, an outside perspective that they do not have, and we're going to come up with creative solutions that they wouldn't have on their own.  To that end, there are many suggestions given here on these forums that were taken in by Anet.  Two of my own were color-coded combo fields and Elemental Refreshment granting barrier in an AoE.  In a very direct way, our suggestions are just ways of communicating our perspectives and ideas toward the developers in hopes to resolve the contradictions that exist between their perspectives and ours.  When we do this, as humans, we do not appreciate being told to shut up.

 

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Talk about only your experience. Try not to speak for the whole community, because opinions are subjective and differ from person to person. When giving your own feedback, avoid being hyperbolic. It's tempting, but it often does not strengthen your feedback.

I truly do lament relativistic thought.  First, the irony here is that Nick is speaking for all devs while making this twitter thread.  However I'll try to avoid nitpicking too much.  The word "opinion" has had it's usage stretched so wide, but really the only opinions that are subjective are value judgements.  The other use for "opinion," such as "assertion," "prediction," "comparison," are not subjective.  They are claims, based in and made upon reality, and thus are subject to the scrutiny that reality entails.  Experiences come from reality, and while we are not omniscient we nonetheless only get experiences from reality.  Opinions shouldn't be regarded as being wholly detached from fact.

Also on the nitpicking side: hyperbole is a literary device that serves a purpose in writing.  

Quote

"I feel" statements are really really useful. "I feel like my agency as a player is gone when I'm hit with this stun every 10 seconds, and is incredibly frustrating." "I feel like I'm not being challenged when I use xyz setup." This is way more constructive then you think.

This tweet is very similar to the one before it.  Using "I feel" statements devalues assertions and undermines intellectual regard of the ones making it.  Trust me, I've seen this play out in one failed marriage after another (not my own).  How I "feel" is constipated and tired, but that is no use to anyone.  What is really important is to tell people not what you feel, but what you think.  Tell people the logic, show them the evidence, make the claim, and be reasonable as you defend your claims or see them get expanded upon.  Most people do this with such regularity and confidence that we don't even need to preface what we say as "my opinion", "I think," and "I feel."  We just... talk to each other.

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Using this phrase will almost always devalue your feedback: "Do the devs even play their own game after releasing this change?" Of course we do. But how players interact with an update or new design is way different than we might so we might miss something. We're humans too.

I've been trying to be nice here, but this is an outright deflection.  We all know the controversy that went on with the June 30th balance patch by now.  

 

Quote

Lastly if you can't say it nice don't say it at all. I have been an "elite gamer". Tons of achievements, tournaments, you name it. I understand when devs do something frustrating, but just be polite.

Players give feedback to be heard, but your feedback's delivery can help you be heard. Put your best foot forward! Also sometimes feedback is received and not acted upon. That doesn't mean your feedback is lost in the aether. It just means devs might have a different solution.

This is an old debate that I had with the staff many years ago.  It's rather long, so I'll just link to the post here:  

It's basically a page from the book of Dadisms right there..  The very last tweet is a tacit admission that some devs will disregard good ideas if they think you're too mean.  Which is odd, because they keep taking my ideas, however I digress.  The reality of this current situation is a loss in confidence by the players toward the balance team.  This came from the promise that our problems would be fixed by the June patch, only to have these problems magnified with several unrelated things changed and long-standing issues and bugs never being addressed.  It's like that old adage about ducks: If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quack likes a duck, then it is a duck.  The "duck" here being a metaphor for the situation we're in.  The players both feel and think that they've been unheard, and it certainly does seem that way.  After all, Grouch wouldn't have to make an initiative to establish a comprehensive balance philosophy if the lack of one didn't pose such a problem.  Really, it's all self-evident at this point.

I made a thread about two weeks ago on the subject here.  I don't normally like to pimp myself, but this was to illustrate a problem that exists with the current balance and feedback system.  I've made 23 separate questions on balance philosophy without providing any strong opinions on them precisely because of how little we currently know about how Anet goes about the balancing system.  Some of these are complex questions, but other ones are really simple questions that I do not have an answer for, precisely because an answer cannot be inferred from the changes Anet has done to the professions in recent years.  Players have come with their own questions, but the only one I can answer with any certainty is that man-hours are limited.

Finally, the idea that silence and unresolved issues are because of potential fixes years down the line is not a comforting one.  There are changes, delays, mass firings, pandemics, and so on that can all throw a wrench into the machine, so vague promises that it will be fixed eventually are met with heavy skepticism at best and at worst it just feels like we're being talked down to and dismissed.

Goodnight everybody!

[Swagg.9236]

9 hours ago, HotDelirium.7984 said:

On dev Nick Hernandez's twitter he retweeted a thread discussing feedback and for me, it was pretty profound. I had always given solutions AS feedback but after reading the thread I am starting to rethink this approach.  

So from now on I will be trying to reframe feedback in this even more constructive manner and I invite others to consider it as well.

Any further thoughts? 

Giving solutions is the most optimal form of feedback.  Without direction, talking about how something should be different is just complaining or hot air.  People just lack spines to hear that their work needs fixing.  That dude's profile already looks like it's going to give terrible advice.  The best way to teach is through asking questions rather than preaching for 20 blocks of text.

[Danikat.8537]

All these tips are fairly standard advice for giving feedback anywhere, not just to game developers.

I agree that it seems strange to say don't give solutions, but I understand why people say that. I'm not a game developer but I've encountered the same in my work. If someone just suggests a solution and it's impractical for some reason it's very difficult to go anywhere with that. Whereas if they tell you what underlying problem they're trying to fix it's easier to figure out something that will work.

Say for example someone posts a long thread detailing their idea for introducing a gear treadmill system into GW2 where what you've got is regularly downgraded or not good enough for new content so you need to get a whole new set, which will only be available in specific areas, before you can play most of the new release. That is obviously never going to happen and players would shut them down before anyone from Anet even saw the thread. End of discussion right?

If instead they came to the forum and said they don't feel motivated to do any more than the minimum in each new release because the current reward types don't appeal to them, and maybe gave some examples of rewards or games that do motivate them to keep playing, Anet can use that info to find an equivalent that would work in this game.

Having said that I like giving solutions too. I often find trying to imagine a solution helps me understand what the problem is. Also I'm used to talking about games which don't get a constant stream of new releases and updates, maybe 1-2 expansion packs and then a sequel in a few years, and on forums where it's very unlikely the developers even know it exists, let alone read it for feedback, so all the proposed changes are discussing hypotheticals with other players and in that context the solution is the interesting part.

My compromise is to do both. I start off with what the problem is, then talk about what I'd do to fix it. Which also helps avoid the mistake of starting with "We all know the problem with X" and then finding out no one else feels the same way about it you do so they don't even understand why you're trying to fix it or what your solution is supposed to achieve.
 

10 hours ago, Funky.4861 said:

"I feel..." statements are completely subjective, especially if they are based on niche or situational circumstances. This means they are easily dismissed if not backed up by objective facts.

In this case I think it's important to remember we're talking about video games and how they make players feel is usually the most important thing.

That's why it's fairly common for games to use tricks like letting you jump just after running off the edge of a platform - because players usually won't notice that's happening, but would notice if the game was strict about it and 'the jump button didn't work' half the time when they tried to jump at the last second.

[Linken.6345]

12 minutes ago, Danikat.8537 said:

Snip

That's why it's fairly common for games to use tricks like letting you jump just after running off the edge of a platform - because players usually won't notice that's happening, but would notice if the game was strict about it and 'the jump button didn't work' half the time when they tried to jump at the last second.

You have not played sab tribulation mode I take it?

[Danikat.8537]

1 minute ago, Linken.6345 said:

You have not played sab tribulation mode I take it?

I have, but not much.

But I'm talking about platformers in general, not specifically anything in GW2. There's examples for other genres as well, but I think they're less well known. Things like enemies in FPS games who approach from the side being programmed to always miss their first shot so you have a chance to react before they hit you even if they see you first, or weighted RNG so if you have a run of bad luck it increases your chance of getting a good roll later on.

It happens in tabletop games as well, a good DM will bend or break the rules or ignore a dice roll for things everyone at the table knows 'should' happen even if going strictly by the rule book says it shouldn't.

[Mik.3401]

Spreading love, light and kindness is important, but so is doing their work properly. I agree the discussion needs to be civilised and respectful, but man - promising stuff and not delivering it after 6+ months is just unprofessional. Just get good and things will be fine.  It’s in their interest because players can leave at any point and just forget.

Edited July 25, 2022 by Mik.3401

[Astralporing.1957]

23 minutes ago, Danikat.8537 said:

I agree that it seems strange to say don't give solutions, but I understand why people say that. I'm not a game developer but I've encountered the same in my work. If someone just suggests a solution and it's impractical for some reason it's very difficult to go anywhere with that. Whereas if they tell you what underlying problem they're trying to fix it's easier to figure out something that will work.

This works only until the first time devs will try to badly solve an issue. When i'll give a feedback "i'm cold" and the solution given is to set me on fire, you can bet that next time i will try to supply my own solution to a new problem, in order to try to avoid the previous situation. And Anet has been, for years, known for "solving" a lot of issues in ways that many players very much did not like (need i say "build templates"?).

23 minutes ago, Danikat.8537 said:

Say for example someone posts a long thread detailing their idea for introducing a gear treadmill system into GW2 where what you've got is regularly downgraded or not good enough for new content so you need to get a whole new set, which will only be available in specific areas, before you can play most of the new release. That is obviously never going to happen and players would shut them down before anyone from Anet even saw the thread. End of discussion right?

If instead they came to the forum and said they don't feel motivated to do any more than the minimum in each new release because the current reward types don't appeal to them, and maybe gave some examples of rewards or games that do motivate them to keep playing, Anet can use that info to find an equivalent that would work in this game.

Yes. So, obviously, the solution is to mention both the problem you see, and the solution you imagined.

23 minutes ago, Danikat.8537 said:

My compromise is to do both. I start off with what the problem is, then talk about what I'd do to fix it. Which also helps avoid the mistake of starting with "We all know the problem with X" and then finding out no one else feels the same way about it you do so they don't even understand why you're trying to fix it or what your solution is supposed to achieve.

Precisely. We always should try to mention what problems we're trying to fix, and (preferably) why we picked this specific solution for this.

23 minutes ago, Danikat.8537 said:

In this case I think it's important to remember we're talking about video games and how they make players feel is usually the most important thing.

It is, but for devs individual player feelings do not matter and are easily ignored. And forums (and other community communication channels, like reddit) cover only a small part of the player population, so even if they all happen to agree, they still can be downplayed by the old, tired argument of "only people that see problems come here, everyone else is happily playing".

Basically, feelings are hard to quantify and thus easy to ignore/misread. Arguments based on actual data are much more solid and harder to misinterpret/downplay.

[Hotride.2187]

Apparently making someone angry with what you just added to the game, is their fault and not yours. Chill dude, give feedback when you stop caring about the game and don't get angry anymore.

Ugh, OK?

[Randulf.7614]

4 hours ago, HotDelirium.7984 said:

That gentleman is a dev themselves so when they (with their actual game industry experience) say this template is preferred over others- that's got to have some weight to it. Feedback and this game have a funny history but since dev N. Hernandez retweeted it that does seem like a cosign for that template. I wish they would extrapolate on this further beside just requesting "constructive critique."

I’ve seen plenty of devs ask for solutions in feedback in various game sectors. This is just how this guy works, it’s not a standard, just his way of working. 

[Ashen.2907]

It isnt important for us to know the details of the game's back end in order to make a suggestion. What is important is that the developers have that knowledge when evaluating the suggestions. The dev, in this case, is implying that they as a studio do not have the ability to tell a suggested solution that would work from one that wont.

Edited July 25, 2022 by Ashen.2907

[costepj.5120]

Suggesting solutions seems fine to me (and my job entails creating solutions). Maybe the issue is how you suggest the solution. If you focus on what you want to see as an outcome, that is something any dev should be able to work with. Announcing something is easy and you could do it in a couple of lines of code is not going to win you any friends in the dev community.

[AgentMoore.9453]

*looks at the wreckage of the balance patch burning on the horizon*

Y'know, given that it was recently proven that there are areas of the game where players legitimately do know more about the subject than the devs working on it, I have to say I'm fine with people offering potential solutions when giving feedback. If your delivery is coherent and polite, I don't see how that could ever be a negative thing to do.

[kharmin.7683]

1 hour ago, Mik.3401 said:

Spreading love, light and kindness is important, but so is doing their work properly. I agree the discussion needs to be civilised and respectful, but man - promising stuff and not delivering it after 6+ months is just unprofessional. Just get good and things will be fine.  It’s in their interest because players can leave at any point and just forget.

And people wonder why the devs hardly post on the forum or even engage with players here.

18 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

It isnt important for us to know the details of the game's back end in order to make a suggestion. What is important is that the developers have that knowledge when evaluating the suggestions. The dev, in this case, is implying that they as a studio do not have the ability to tell a suggested solution that would work from one that wont.

Except for when players make a suggestion and say that it is easy to do and wonder why the devs don't do it.  We get that A LOT around here.

[Mik.3401]

20 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

And people wonder why the devs hardly post on the forum or even engage with players here.

As I said this is in their own interest. They can stick to not completing deliverables but this is not our problem at the end - it is theirs. Or they can listen to feedback and make the game playable. We don’t need to play, but they low-key need to keep the game performing so they keep the job

[Hotride.2187]

3 hours ago, Mik.3401 said:

As I said this is in their own interest. They can stick to not completing deliverables but this is not our problem at the end - it is theirs. Or they can listen to feedback and make the game playable. We don’t need to play, but they low-key need to keep the game performing so they keep the job

Yeah I feel that is lost to some people. Maybe 20 years ago when there was "few" games to play you'd get away with a bad game (though honestly even then there was enough to choose from).

Now? Lol. I'm off to do something else.

[Ashen.2907]

4 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

And people wonder why the devs hardly post on the forum or even engage with players here.

Except for when players make a suggestion and say that it is easy to do and wonder why the devs don't do it.  We get that A LOT around here.

It doesnt matter if a given player claims that a given change would be easy to implement. The devs know how resource intensive any proposal will be and should, as I said in the comment you quoted, be able to differentiate between good (actionable within budget) and bad (not actionable within budget) suggestions.

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

3 hours ago, Mik.3401 said:

As I said this is in their own interest. They can stick to not completing deliverables but this is not our problem at the end - it is theirs. Or they can listen to feedback and make the game playable. We don’t need to play, but they low-key need to keep the game performing so they keep the job

True

When  casuals need more time to beat Soo Won or less HP , then the raiders should step back and not derail the threads with git gud , or use LI builds. So the devs can indentify  the problem .

(Can you imagine if those raiders , will whine 3 months later , if people actual use those spec , or even at Teapot ?:P This is why we must promote sane locale-heroes)

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[HotDelirium.7984]

7 hours ago, Randulf.7614 said:

I’ve seen plenty of devs ask for solutions in feedback in various game sectors. This is just how this guy works, it’s not a standard, just his way of working. 

This might be a collegiate line of thoughts and questions but I wonder that if some of the devs at ANET thought this particular feedback template was preferred and some didn't (we will probably never know) then what is to come from it? Some feedback will be disseminated and others won't be accepted? Is it better to have a company-wide policy or let every dev go about feedback in their own way regardless if that's inefficient for the game service?

Also, thank you everyone for all the thoughts. I went into this thinking this might be the be-all end-all template and it seems its not as simple as that. ❤️ 

[Randulf.7614]

46 minutes ago, HotDelirium.7984 said:

This might be a collegiate line of thoughts and questions but I wonder that if some of the devs at ANET thought this particular feedback template was preferred and some didn't (we will probably never know) then what is to come from it? Some feedback will be disseminated and others won't be accepted? Is it better to have a company-wide policy or let every dev go about feedback in their own way regardless if that's inefficient for the game service?

Also, thank you everyone for all the thoughts. I went into this thinking this might be the be-all end-all template and it seems its not as simple as that. ❤️ 

Post ls1 and after the utter disaster that 2013 was, Anet did something called the collaborative forum feedback thread which heavily templated feedback and ultimately led to HoT and it’s features - most notably the mastery system.

Whilst it was a highlight for interaction (when devs interact in the forums, it often brings out a lot more positive engagement), it got messy because trying to structure feedback so narrowly when you have so large a community of different people, it was hard to stay focused and voices risked getting lost because they weren’t feeding back in a specific way, even if what they were saying had relevance.

If there are any golden rules to live by on feedback, keep things concise (walls of text and you risk losing your audience), keep things balanced (good and bad) and don’t be nasty or argue with others. Otherwise, feedback however you feel works and let them take what they need.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

1 hour ago, HotDelirium.7984 said:

This might be a collegiate line of thoughts and questions but I wonder that if some of the devs at ANET thought this particular feedback template was preferred and some didn't (we will probably never know) then what is to come from it? Some feedback will be disseminated and others won't be accepted? Is it better to have a company-wide policy or let every dev go about feedback in their own way regardless if that's inefficient for the game service?

Also, thank you everyone for all the thoughts. I went into this thinking this might be the be-all end-all template and it seems its not as simple as that. ❤️ 

I don't think they are a hive-mind.  Pretty sure they even discussed that in the past.