What’re we losing with no sub?

[Labjax.2465]

8 minutes ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

I guess I would ask where I expected people to go elsewhere.  People have free will.  They can make it their own sub game if they want and get many items off the TP.

 

The other choice would be to not play this game.  That’s not mean.  It’s simply a fact.  (Well, or play no game at all would be a possible third choice..)

 

People have choices.  Just because they may not like those choices, doesn’t mean they don’t have some.  
 

Also, ask yourself why some of those games don’t still exist.  This one has for (almost) 10 years.  It’s predecessor is still going.  It may be dying, but it’s still kicking.  And adding a subscription when we’ve already payed for the game would likely chase many of the people who keep the game active away.  
 

It’s not for everybody.  And, if a game came out with more focus on a realm vs realm mode that had combat like this one, and would allow for 90+ Versus 90+ versus 90+, and was updated, and buy to play, I’d try it as well.  But let’s face it, no one has been able to do it.  

What other implication is there of saying that people who love sub games come here instead of playing sub games? Is it supposed to be that they secretly hate them?

As to "free will," no you can't make this a sub game by spending monthly on it. It doesn't work like that because it's not about how much money you spend on it each month, it's the entire financial model of it and how that model influences the design of the game from the ground up. For example, GW2's entire economy and reward system centers around a steady, but slow gain of gold for the player, with gold tying into virtually every reward in one way or another, such that anyone with more money and less time will be tempted to do gems to gold to get a reward faster that they can't directly buying from the cash shop, including some legendaries, the pinnacle of the game's rewards. None of which would make a lick of sense in a game without a cash shop / MTX. The design would have different motives. I can't say what without considering what the different financial model would be, but they would be different.

I can tell you why those purely sub games I mentioned don't exist anymore, or not in the same form. Because having a game be purely sub puts strict limits on how much profit a company can make from an MMO and their investors want all the money in the world. For it to be profitable isn't enough, they want profits to increase year after year, which also explains why certain types of items in this game's store steadily become more expensive and some have taken notice of that.

I don't have any vision of, or desire for, GW2 to add a sub now. Adding a subscription to this game wouldn't improve it at all. There's a reason I emphasize "purely sub game," meaning one that only has a sub and always has, as opposed to one that has both sub and cash shop. It is the cash shop model that results in the line between store and game blurring. Some of the people behind this kind of thing quite literally want to "turn players into payers."

I criticize the model, that's all, I know GW2 won't change to a purely sub game in a million years.

[Einsof.1457]

OP, What you describe are features, not problems. Gw2 has the best "endgame" experience. The whole game is endgame and no content becomes obsolete. 

Edited August 3, 2022 by Einsof.1457

[Einsof.1457]

1 hour ago, DexterousGecko.6328 said:

I don't know, I see GW2 pushing end-game instanced content more, and it starts looking awfully like all the other mmos.

Lol what?

[Taclism.2406]

2 hours ago, lezbefriends.7516 said:

what are we gaining/losing to keep this game sub-free? Is it worth it?

You stated if yourself. We lose the usual endgame cycle of "new raid (+ gear tier)" every 3-6 months. 

Is it worth it? Depends what type of player you are.
Many love that in gw2, unlike every mmo with sub, you dont fall behind if you have little time to play / take a break for several months or years. 
If you're a "old school raider" looking for a game to sink in 6+ hours a day, you'll have experienced every boss and run out of goals in just a few months after character creation, unless you aim for 40k ap or XYZ legendaries

Given barely 10% of the playerbase experienced a raid, and even less do it on a regular basis, it'll never be Anet's focus - and the majority will cheer they dont spend dev money on content they dont experience.

[draxynnic.3719]

Based on what I've heard from with WoW, subs don't seem to be the key to a paradise of quality content and useful items earned through gameplay rather than microtransactions that people seem to think it is.

Ultimately, what it does is change the incentives of the developers. Subscription games are incentivised to keep people on that treadmill. The ideal for this is regular quality content for people to play. The dark side is grind that gets invalidated in future updates that bring something new to grind for. (Yes, I know they have to accept that some people will finish early and quit until the next thing comes around. That's because they need to calibrate the level of grind so it's achievable for the "regular" player, which means the people with the time and tolerance to smash it out quickly will be able to.)

Non-subscription games are incentivised to produce content that people are willing to pay for voluntarily. The ideal is regular expansions for as long as the company continues supporting the game. The dark side is microtransactions and pay-to-win (GW2 has largely avoided the latter).

[DexterousGecko.6328]

18 minutes ago, Einsof.1457 said:

Lol what?

I said

 

"I don't know, I see GW2 pushing end-game instanced content more, and it starts looking awfully like all the other mmos. "

[Einsof.1457]

3 minutes ago, DexterousGecko.6328 said:

I said

 

"I don't know, I see GW2 pushing end-game instanced content more, and it starts looking awfully like all the other mmos. "

I guess we have different definitions of endgame content..what does pushing mean? Who is pushing, exactly? I don't feel pushed. 

Edited August 3, 2022 by Einsof.1457

[Linken.6345]

1 hour ago, DexterousGecko.6328 said:

 

most? no, the whales probably spend 80%. As for "infecting everything", how many mount skins are unlockable by playing? How often do you see mounts? How many quality of life items are locked behind the cash shop/black lion chests?

All of them since you can convert gold to gems.

[Taclism.2406]

3 minutes ago, DexterousGecko.6328 said:

GW2 pushing end-game instanced content

does it matter when endgame looks like this

[Healix.5819]

4 hours ago, lezbefriends.7516 said:

What I’ve learned is that sub affords true endgame raiding and dungeon content with hard trinity—the true AAA MMORPG experience.

Blizzard kind of admitted to that years ago. The majority only plays expansions and either quits or plays whatever between them, so they focus on grind between expansions to keep others paying. However, raids are also used for advertising (via streamers / world first competitions), so a sub ultimately isn't required to justify it. The lack of a trinity and especially vertical progression frankly guarantees that this type content will fail here however.

[Obtena.7952]

I don't get why people assume that something is lost. Do you have data to suggest that revenues for GW2 are LOWER because of a lack of a sub? 

[Super Hayes.6890]

🤦‍♂️ Um, why discuss this at all??? This game was specifically created as a non-subscription based game. IT WILL NOT CHANGE. Someone provided the answer already. Now buy gems monthly, get over it and start posting interesting topics 😒

[Taclism.2406]

 

43 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I don't get why people assume that something is lost. Do you have data to suggest that revenues for GW2 are LOWER because of a lack of a sub? 

Thats a stupid argument to make, of course it is. But if you want data, it exists, its called quarterly income reports.
Wow made 2642 millions $ in 2021 , whereas gw2 made 76 billions won ... which is barely over 58millions $.
That doesnt take into account how many players are in each game, but I highly doubt WoW literally has 50 times more players than gw2 (that'd be 30k gw2 players, and we know for a fact eod sold at the very least 93k copies)

Its not arguable Anet economic model is loosing them money, however you can argue if they had a sub since 2013, the game would have died or be way worse than what we have now - see every "wow killer" that turned freemium + p2w
Its not like a sub means no microtransactions either

[Obtena.7952]

15 minutes ago, Taclism.2406 said:

Its not arguable Anet economic model is loosing them money, 

It is arguable but that's not really the point here. If someone wants to argue that not having a sub is making the game lose something, they are assuming the game would be better off incorporating some sub in their  revenue generation. Nothing suggest that to be true ... not even quarterly reports. Quarterly reports aren't a comparison, so how does the quarterly report indication one way is better than the other?

The whole premise of the thread is absurd to begin with. My favourite part is when they start talking about endgame content generation is affects. Just more speculation. 

Edited August 4, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

3 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

For it to be profitable isn't enough, they want profits to increase year after year, which also explains why certain types of items in this game's store steadily become more expensive and some have taken notice of that.

If this is the case, why hasn't the cost of Gems been raised in 10 years? 

I don't see the cost of most items having been raised since they first were introduced.  In fact, the cost of premium Mount Skins has been lower in some cases, than when premium Mount Skins first appeared.  Now, I admit that the entire armor sets that came out the first year or two were inexpensive, and many years later when you can buy pieces individually for entire sets they are more expensive, but I can't see that being the usual case rather than the exception. 

[DanAlcedo.3281]

I'm here BECAUSE it's not a "true AAA mmorpg experience". 

If I wanna play a wow clone I just could play one of the 1000 wow Clones. 

 

[Taclism.2406]

15 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

It is arguable.

I literally showed you the average money spent per player is higher in subs game, if 2>1 isnt logic enough there's nothing that'll convince you.

 

15 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

How do you know the game would generate more revenue if it was sub based? You don't

That I dont indeed, thats why I said we can extrapolate the game might be dead by now if it had one, since having none is one of its main selling argument right now

My point isnt that gw2 would improve with a sub, its that gw2 economic model is bound to make them less money

Edited August 4, 2022 by Taclism.2406

[Linken.6345]

7 minutes ago, Taclism.2406 said:

I literally showed you the average money spent per player is higher in subs game, if 2>1 isnt logic enough there's nothing that'll convince you.

 

That I dont indeed, thats why I said we can extrapolate the game might be dead by now if it had one, since having none is one of its main selling argument right now

My point isnt that gw2 would improve with a sub, its that gw2 economic model is bound to make them less money

Well I take less money each year10 years then no money at all bettwen 7-9 years

[Ultramex.1506]

I'm convinced this entire post is just OP provoking for reactions and let people fight each other

[Susy.7529]

Losing? Nothing.

Gaining? More money in our wallet.

[Nate Anabe.6091]

What are we losing with no sub?

They ability to record Whale Songs

[ASP.8093]

7 hours ago, lezbefriends.7516 said:

What I’ve learned is that sub affords true endgame raiding and dungeon content with hard trinity—the true AAA MMORPG experience.

That's not subscription/no-subscription, that's just most games sticking to a very familiar tank/heal/dps formula and others choosing not to.

[Izzy.2951]

7 hours ago, lezbefriends.7516 said:

Obviously you get what you pay for so sacrifices have to be made to keep this game “free” for a majority of players.

 

I’ve played the 2 juggernaut sub games and an optional-sub mmo. I’ve played GW2 since Beta.

 

What I’ve learned is that sub affords true endgame raiding and dungeon content with hard trinity—the true AAA MMORPG experience.

 

Less obvious advantages to the sub are free armor appearance changes and new races/mounts with each expansion.

 

Just what are we gaining/losing to keep this game sub-free? Is it worth it?

 

The only real problem is people being able to buy EVERYTHING from the shop with in game gold, without supporting arenanet production in any way (real money). Something that you cannot do in any other game. Thats the only thing i would eliminate however that will maybe kill gw2. But its absurd. No need sub fee btw.

Edited August 4, 2022 by Izzy.2951

[ASP.8093]

2 minutes ago, Izzy.2951 said:

The only real problem is people being able to buy EVERYTHING from the shop with in game gold, without supporting arenanet production in any way (real money). Something that you cannot do in any other game. Thats the only thing i would eliminate however that will maybe kill gw2. But its absurd. No need sub fee btw.

Pretty sure that's compensated by other people buying gold. (If players only did gold-to-gems conversion, the price would just go up and up and up.) Also, people shell out real money for the expansions.

Edited August 4, 2022 by ASP.8093

[Labjax.2465]

16 minutes ago, ASP.8093 said:

Pretty sure that's compensated by other people buying gold. (If players only did gold-to-gems conversion, the price would just go up and up and up.) Also, people shell out real money for the expansions.

Yes, the gold to gems exchange to some extent at least only works because people buy gems and exchange them for gold. Idk if there's a floor where it allows it to happen anyway, but at a high cost. But if there was, it'd prob be a very painful conversion rate.