Friendly reminder that MMOs need criticism

[Labjax.2465]

Though it can be said that some single player games are more like an art piece where they are released and then left alone, and criticism (while fine) is not really going to change anything, the MMO genre is decidedly not like that at all. These are games that get changed over time, in big or small ways, by nature and due to the communities that form around them after launch, they go from being something that was made without an audience to something that is more of a collaborative project, albeit with the community only being able to say what they wish to see and leaving if they feel the game has left them behind.

I can't tell you how to react to criticism of this game, I have no power here. I can only remind people that MMOs are not static projects and without feedback about them, the studio is just fumbling in the dark throwing stuff at the wall and hoping it sticks.

Ideally, most criticism would be thoughtful and constructive, but that's not always the case and it comes with the territory. Sometimes people just want to vent about the game and as hard as it can be to stomach if you love the game and feel the criticism is unfair, it's just their feelings. You don't have to confront them on how they feel about the game, as if a debate is needed to decide what will happen next. Not everything is a debate anyway. Sometimes people just feel differently about the game and both their feelings can still be valid, despite being very different reactions. You can debate somebody on the specifics of a criticism if you want, but you can't debate how they feel. It just is.

Maybe this is too meta and provocative, idk, but I figured I'd try saying something. I've seen twice now just recently, someone being told to quit the game because of a criticism they have about it and, you know, if you ever say or consider saying things like that or are especially harsh toward someone who has a criticism about the game, do you really want that wish to come true? Do you want someone to leave the game or feel invalidated because a criticism they have doesn't feel valid to you? This game is still getting actively developed for 10 years in, I think it can handle people being dissatisfied with it sometimes, without someone trying to chase them away or make them feel small.

This is not meant to be an attack on anyone, I'm not your parent and again, I have no power here. All I can do is try to remind people that we don't need to be like factions. If you play the game, you are a player, it doesn't need to be more splintered than that.

[Ashen.2907]

Indeed they do, and this game gets its fair share. Of course it would be nice if some of it was more factually accurate.

Edited September 3, 2022 by Ashen.2907

[Freya.9075]

All games have criticism. I don’t think anyone is reacting to criticism in itself. If ppl react to the criticism it’s because of the way it is presented. We all feel differently, and when someone attack something you love and you feel it’s not a valid reasoning for the criticism, you got the right to tell your opinions as well.
 

There is a recent topic about new player experience that proves my point here. No one attacked this person for sharing their thoughts about the game as it was presented in a respectful manner. Ppl rather helped the person respectfully back.

Venting is fine, but if you do that. Reactions are to be expected. Should ppl not have the right to say their opinions just cause someone vented? And some ppl are just straight out toxic and make false claims and spread misinformation. We got the right to respond to it just as they got the right to say their part. 

[Mortime.1359]

MMO's take a lot of time investment and because of it people that get really into them develop an unhealthy relationship with the game. As of such they precieve any criticism on the game as an attack on themselves. Which is why criticising an MMO is always such a risky undertaking. One of the reasons why I stopped following FF14 was because of the cult like following of that game. And while there seem to be some tribal Andys on these forums as well it doesn't seem to be quite as extreme as on some other MMO forums.

[yoni.7015]

It’s about how criticism is presented. Is it written in a respectful manner and constructive? Sure, most are happy about that. But a lot of the  “criticism” here is just complaining and crying.  And other people have the right to respond to that. 

Edited September 3, 2022 by yoni.7015

[costepj.5120]

Some criticism is also hard to accept when the critics are proud of the fact they haven't played GW2 for years.

[Jukhy.2431]

I agree. However, I've been reading some of the "criticism" in the Steam forums and a lot of it is misleading or just outright lies about the game.

Edited September 3, 2022 by Jukhy.2431
typo

[lezbefriends.7516]

1 hour ago, Jukhy.2431 said:

I agree. However, I've been reading some of the "criticism" in the Steam forums and a lot of it is misleading or just outright lies about the game.

I don’t see any outright lies, just misinformation. People think that what they are saying is actually true.

[Cyninja.2954]

2 hours ago, yoni.7015 said:

It’s about how criticism is presented. Is it written in a respectful manner and constructive? Sure, most are happy about that. But a lot of the  “criticism” here is just complaining and crying.  And other people have the right to respond to that. 

Thank you. Just had to quote this because this is what it mostly boils down to.

Even then, one can disagree about criticism and as long as the discussion remains civil, it can be meaningful.

What is not productive is the venting that is happening, the constant demands for free or easier loot or simple bashing of players who enjoy different game modes or play-styles (and not even going to get into the bashing of developers) on the forums. Actually well presented critical thoughts usually are confronted with reasonable discussion, until someone vents or people start bickering about details.

It has been refreshing to have more "new player" opinions thrown into the mix (quotation-ed because this can also apply to returning players, etc.), both in terms of shaking up old stereotypes as well as actually confirming valid points of criticism.

Edited September 3, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Vayne.8563]

Every game is entitled to criticism. I've criticized this game myself, and many consider me a mindless fan boi.  It's not the case.

However, if I don't agree with something I don't agree with something.

I've seen some criticism leveled at this game along the lines of it doesn't have gear grind and it should. It's criticism, but it's not helpful criticism. Add gear grind to this game and most of the existing players would balk.  Even the original release of ascended gear felt like a broken promise to a lot of people and they some of them left the game.

I've seen some posts that were valid criticism. Just today I agreed with someone who felt the daily  system wasn't good for people who upgraded early but didn't want to go into any form of PvP and couldn't get to the PvE dailies. It was valid criticism to me and so I agreed with it.

 

By the same token a lot of the negative stuff I've seen is either factually wrong, severely overstated, or simply an opinion that I don't agree with.  In the same way people have the right to ask for this game to have gear grind, I have the right to say it shouldn't.

 

Criticism is important, but that doesn't mean criticism itself doesn't need to be evaluated by the community. That's sort of how forums work.

Edited September 3, 2022 by Vayne.8563

[Crono.4197]

Criticism is good. The problem is that GW2 criticizing and feedback is "make it be more like my favorite MMO".

I can't tell you how many times I've read "make this game like WoW/FFXIV/insert other MMOs". That's not criticism or feedback, it's just someone who can't accept that there are different types of games out there and they want all games to be the same as their favorite ones, else the said game is "bad".

I'm all up for ways to improve the game, but when you say "this game is not like X game, I want it to be like X game" then yeah, that's not feedback or criticism. Guild Wars 2 should stay a horizontal progression game that is open for all type of players, it shouldn't turn into another mainstream game that looks just like a copy-paste of another game. I've said it tons of times and will continue to do so.

Edited September 3, 2022 by Crono.4197
typo

[Zok.4956]

2 hours ago, Crono.4197 said:

I'm all up for ways to improve the game, but when you say "this game is not like X game, I want it to be like X game" then yeah, that's not feedback or criticism.

Well, that too is legit feedback. Different players want different things and are allowed to voice their wishes.

 

2 hours ago, Crono.4197 said:

I can't tell you how many times I've read "make this game like WoW/FFXIV/insert other MMOs"

I can't tell you how many times players asked for "flying" and "mounts" in GW2, because other games had this and the standard response to this from other players was the "you are riding a dead horse" meme. It was the time long before HoT was released.

And then Anet took this idea and made something with it (gliding and other fun ways of map travel with HoT and mounts with PoF) that was quite different to flying and mounts in other games and that made the game somehow better and more fun.

So, sure some things that players ask because they just want a clone of game X, but without subscription, do not fit within the ideas and the gameplay foundation of GW2. But even that feedback could be of value for the devs.

 

[Blue D Phoenix.7260]

I don't know about you, but I showed my critisim towards EoD after beta release and after main release.

 

Half people took it positively, the other half didn't.

[Gibson.4036]

 

If you show up to a basketball game and suggest the court should be a field, players should use their feet instead of their hands, and the whole thing should be dramatically scaled up, you’re no longer providing legit feedback. You should just go play soccer.

[JTGuevara.9018]

11 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Though it can be said that some single player games are more like an art piece where they are released and then left alone, and criticism (while fine) is not really going to change anything, the MMO genre is decidedly not like that at all. These are games that get changed over time, in big or small ways, by nature and due to the communities that form around them after launch, they go from being something that was made without an audience to something that is more of a collaborative project, albeit with the community only being able to say what they wish to see and leaving if they feel the game has left them behind.

I can't tell you how to react to criticism of this game, I have no power here. I can only remind people that MMOs are not static projects and without feedback about them, the studio is just fumbling in the dark throwing stuff at the wall and hoping it sticks.

Ideally, most criticism would be thoughtful and constructive, but that's not always the case and it comes with the territory. Sometimes people just want to vent about the game and as hard as it can be to stomach if you love the game and feel the criticism is unfair, it's just their feelings. You don't have to confront them on how they feel about the game, as if a debate is needed to decide what will happen next. Not everything is a debate anyway. Sometimes people just feel differently about the game and both their feelings can still be valid, despite being very different reactions. You can debate somebody on the specifics of a criticism if you want, but you can't debate how they feel. It just is.

Maybe this is too meta and provocative, idk, but I figured I'd try saying something. I've seen twice now just recently, someone being told to quit the game because of a criticism they have about it and, you know, if you ever say or consider saying things like that or are especially harsh toward someone who has a criticism about the game, do you really want that wish to come true? Do you want someone to leave the game or feel invalidated because a criticism they have doesn't feel valid to you? This game is still getting actively developed for 10 years in, I think it can handle people being dissatisfied with it sometimes, without someone trying to chase them away or make them feel small.

This is not meant to be an attack on anyone, I'm not your parent and again, I have no power here. All I can do is try to remind people that we don't need to be like factions. If you play the game, you are a player, it doesn't need to be more splintered than that.

OP, you are certainly correct. Also, I will add that every form of art needs criticism, or more accurately said, critique.  Critique is crucially important for an artist and their work to grow and progress. It's an objective analysis of a work's strengths and weaknesses. This is the case in the visual arts (drawing, painting) and the performing arts (theater, dance, film). The digital arts (gaming, animation, etc) should be no exception.

Unfortunately, gaming communities as a whole have NOT matured past a fifth grade level. So every substantial critique of a game becomes a freakin' controversy. People just cannot accept that their beloved game has flaws so they draw the battle lines in the sand and attempt to defend their product. The worst, to me, is defending and shilling for the corporations and publishers that made it. (lmao) They don't need you defending them. They're out to make a buck and YOU'RE giving it to them.

Also, see Gamergate. A hate movement targeted towards women under the guise of so-called "media objectivity". If not that then it's a big temper tantrum towards lesbian main characters "polluting" their franchises.

[Ultramex.1506]

When people's criticism is about technical stuffs outside of the game like "can't link gw2 with steam" I'm not going to take it seriously, that doesn't help anybody not even that person, it doesn't tell new players how the game really work.

[Sobx.1758]

Friendly reminder that criticism needs criticism since just because someone complained about something doesn't automatically make it correct or often even valid. Sometimes people have trouble with acknowledging criticism about their criticism (2 recent examples, out of... many: "I don't have expansion zone unlocked, so I can't complete 3 dailies" -false, there are also easy wvw/pvp dailies. Or "fishing bad because I can't limit the fishing drop table the way I'd specifically want" -wrong, excluding worse drop to just get more valuable one shouldn't reasonably be a thing for fishing the same way it's not really for the regular drops) so instead of acknowledging what's being responded to their complaints, they instead default into creating another blanket thread that only tries to claim "my complaints are good". No, the complaints aren't good by default. They can be good, but a lot of times they're not while uncluding unreasonable wishes or bending facts to their favor.

If someone "sometimes just wants to vent", it probably would be better to make a blog. This forum is not a blog though.

12 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Indeed they do, and this game gets its fair share. Of course it would be nice if some of it was more factually accurate.

Yup, exactly.

Edited September 3, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[disco.9302]

13 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Though it can be said that some single player games are more like an art piece where they are released and then left alone, and criticism (while fine) is not really going to change anything, the MMO genre is decidedly not like that at all. These are games that get changed over time, in big or small ways, by nature and due to the communities that form around them after launch, they go from being something that was made without an audience to something that is more of a collaborative project, albeit with the community only being able to say what they wish to see and leaving if they feel the game has left them behind.

I can't tell you how to react to criticism of this game, I have no power here. I can only remind people that MMOs are not static projects and without feedback about them, the studio is just fumbling in the dark throwing stuff at the wall and hoping it sticks.

Ideally, most criticism would be thoughtful and constructive, but that's not always the case and it comes with the territory. Sometimes people just want to vent about the game and as hard as it can be to stomach if you love the game and feel the criticism is unfair, it's just their feelings. You don't have to confront them on how they feel about the game, as if a debate is needed to decide what will happen next. Not everything is a debate anyway. Sometimes people just feel differently about the game and both their feelings can still be valid, despite being very different reactions. You can debate somebody on the specifics of a criticism if you want, but you can't debate how they feel. It just is.

Maybe this is too meta and provocative, idk, but I figured I'd try saying something. I've seen twice now just recently, someone being told to quit the game because of a criticism they have about it and, you know, if you ever say or consider saying things like that or are especially harsh toward someone who has a criticism about the game, do you really want that wish to come true? Do you want someone to leave the game or feel invalidated because a criticism they have doesn't feel valid to you? This game is still getting actively developed for 10 years in, I think it can handle people being dissatisfied with it sometimes, without someone trying to chase them away or make them feel small.

This is not meant to be an attack on anyone, I'm not your parent and again, I have no power here. All I can do is try to remind people that we don't need to be like factions. If you play the game, you are a player, it doesn't need to be more splintered than that.

Don't take this the wrong way amigo, but after reading some of your recent "contributions" to the this forum, I feel it's time to say it.

I have never come across a poster like yourself where everything you post I disagree with.

Some other posters I find a balance of agreement/disagreement but those who post regularly will come up with several ideas I can get behind if not many.

In your case (and honestly consider this a pretty epic achievement) I find absolutely nothing you post to be something I like.

I know this post is likely to be deleted but I really have to congratulate you on writing so much and having the 100% consistency to be wrong (in my opinion).

[Sunchaser.9854]

You can be at the top of a class with a B- if your peers are C+s and F-s. But that doesn't mean that there aren't higher potential grades out there for self improvement. After all, in the real world past a public school, how many colleges do you go to where you can fire your teacher if you don't agree with the part where you said 2 + 5 = 25? While we might always want people to stroke and coddle us with praise, there's much strength to learn in how to use and focus criticism to become a better person, a harder worker, a more intelligent student, a smarter chess player.

But all too often a common pit trap for people is to choose comfort over growth, and choose praise over criticism. It's only natural after all, but if there was never a critic for a airplane's dangers we'd never have the parachute and without the optimist we wouldn't have the plane. But if people just fell out to their deaths on the words of praise i mean. Some people love that in a world coddled only with positive feedback, it might be a easy mistake to never want to work on fixing your potential weaknesses to turn them into strengths.

As people have pointed out, it's easy to fear it, but if gw2 had never added mounts, or (some) endgame group content (no fractals, raids or 'hardcore' content at release i heard), it might have had a much stronger holding. The first launch trailer of gw2 got 22x more views than the eod trailer even now, though it still chugs along decently well for a 10 year old mmorpg.

Sometimes i feel like it has talent but sometimes it feels like it's sudden rise is just the other mmorpgs also surrounding themselves with yes men who agree that removing flight and mount use is the best gameplay (WoW), and that endgame content should be spending 15$ a month to rp in fancy houses. (FF14). And 'endgame' in gw2 is... Cosmetic outfits.. Yay. But it's still a fair model.

It's probably just telling when your competitors are less caring about gw2 but more hoping microsoft will buy them out to change the Activision's management than they are worried about competitors. Most people honestly aren't any more aware that gw2 exists outside of gw2 as much as anyone who's not a Aion player knows it exists.

People still pick Lotro sometimes over gw2 just because they're the same age and they like lotr more. Even some semi indie games with literally 0 advertising spending get millions of views like Cave story and Braid, Super meat boy, terraria, Undertale and Five nights at Freddy's (Like the game or not), really do quite well at getting exposure and winning fans over. Selling yourself and welcoming everyone from pacifist to genocide undertale players brought in a good community, and i think even Fnaf has horror games and kiddie collection games i think now. Gw2 has good open world but if content lasts forever, why not make more content for everyone(?) 

[itspomf.9523]

I mean, you've got some fair points, but you spent 90% of your post needlessly qualifying and couching it in ... well, nothing more than obfuscation about criticism.

If your concern is that people are mistreating other players, say that.  Heck, report the post or person responsible.  Nothing is going to get done about it unless we make the admins aware.

So yes, I agree with your post, but maybe try to say it more coherently, because yeah, it's a problem when people, regardless of whether they're right or wrong about something, are being harassed or abused by others.

[Vayne.8563]

I feel like the OP wants critiques to be left alone, even if you don't agree with this and think they'd make the game worse. This is a problem for me. 

I'm all for a decent critique, but complaints aren't necessarily more accurate than compliments. Knowing what people dislike is as important as knowing what people like.

More to the point though, knowing what one single player dislikes doesn't necessarily tell anything. There's a value to seeing what the people replying to that critique have to say.

By the same token, criticism can also be misleading to new players. If one person says this can't be done because it's too hard, but 90% of the community can do it, and no one posts that it's not really that hard, here are some strategies, then a new player might not attempt that content thinking it's too hard.

If someone posts dungeons are dead, when in fact you can get dungeon groups, you're doing a disservice to new people and the game. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but not all opinions are informed opinions and they need to be challenged.

[Silent.6137]

On 9/3/2022 at 11:22 AM, JTGuevara.9018 said:

This is the case in the visual arts (drawing, painting) and the performing arts (theater, dance, film). The digital arts (gaming, animation, etc) should be no exception.

Unfortunately, gaming communities as a whole have NOT matured past a fifth grade level. So every substantial critique of a game becomes a freakin' controversy

That's a pretty naive view if you think the art world consists of "matured" and informed critiques only. Everything are subjected to the same "controversy" and are never immuned from the so-called "fifth grade level" bickerings. Perhaps gaming are more prevalent because of the number of individuals gaming. History tells us there are oppositions to virtually everything.

On 9/3/2022 at 12:25 PM, Sunchaser.9854 said:

The first launch trailer of gw2 got 22x more views than the eod trailer even now, though it still chugs along decently well for a 10 year old mmorpg.

Can you link the trailer of the 1st GW2 launch?Can't seem to locate it on youtube.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Silent.6137

[JTGuevara.9018]

7 minutes ago, Silent.6137 said:

That's a pretty naive view if you think the art world consists of "matured" and informed critiques only. Everything are subjected to the same "controversy" and are never immuned from the so-called "fifth grade level" bickerings. Perhaps gaming are more prevalent because of the number of individuals gaming. History tells us there are oppositions to virtually everything.

Can you link the trailer of the 1st GW2 launch?Can't seem to locate it on youtube.

Never said the arts were perfect. What I said is they are collectively more mature than gaming! Call it "naive", but I've yet to see gaming mature and progress to the level of visual arts, film, dance in terms of critique and conversation. Gaming has barely even begun.

Instead, gaming is stuck at the level of not even accepting simple objective criticism, never mind progressing. Somebody offers valid criticism of a game that gets some renown and immediately the shills and stans co-ordinate and discredit that person. Gaming is littered with a consumerist mindset.

[Labjax.2465]

27 minutes ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

Gaming is littered with a consumerist mindset.

Oof. I think you're hitting on a really insightful point there. I see a lot of discourse across different games that is essentially players defending the business side of games as if they are working for the business directly. But because they aren't actually working for that business and lack the details, it ends up being more speculative than a specific insight into the studio's operations. The result is a lot of stuff that comes across as "this specific thing in this specific situation has to be done this way [because the business of games]" without any evidence to back it up. It's pretty odd and I'm not saying this to insult the people who do it, just observe. I think there have been times in years past I was that way somewhat myself (getting burned time after time by different studios helped evaporate that mindset for me). Idk where the mindset is coming from, but in my observation so far, when people get burned enough by one studio or another it seems to put a dent in it one way or another.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Labjax.2465

[Silent.6137]

On 9/3/2022 at 11:22 AM, JTGuevara.9018 said:

OP, you are certainly correct. Also, I will add that every form of art needs criticism, or more accurately said, critique.  Critique is crucially important for an artist and their work to grow and progress. It's an objective analysis of a work's strengths and weaknesses. This is the case in the visual arts (drawing, painting) and the performing arts (theater, dance, film). The digital arts (gaming, animation, etc) should be no exception.

Unfortunately, gaming communities as a whole have NOT matured past a fifth grade level. So every substantial critique of a game becomes a freakin' controversy. People just cannot accept that their beloved game has flaws so they draw the battle lines in the sand and attempt to defend their product. The worst, to me, is defending and shilling for the corporations and publishers that made it. (lmao) They don't need you defending them. They're out to make a buck and YOU'RE giving it to them.

Also, see Gamergate. A hate movement targeted towards women under the guise of so-called "media objectivity". If not that then it's a big temper tantrum towards lesbian main characters "polluting" their franchises.

 

22 minutes ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

What I said is they are collectively more mature than gaming!

No you did not.

When the art world is so small in comparison to the gaming world, there's bound to be more people vocal about their disagreements. In the gaming world, fights are carried out in the forum and various medium. In the art world, it's pitchfork, tars and feathers.

 

23 minutes ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

Somebody offers valid criticism of a game that gets some renown and immediately the shills and stans co-ordinate and discredit that person. Gaming is littered with a consumerist mindset.

 

On 9/3/2022 at 11:22 AM, JTGuevara.9018 said:

 The worst, to me, is defending and shilling for the corporations and publishers that made it. (lmao) They don't need you defending them. They're out to make a buck and YOU'RE giving it to them.

So, I'm not allowed to provide opposing views defending a game I like because I view some of those criticism as unjustified? If I do, I'm a shill? If all you have are criticisms, then what would be the term we should call you?

I do not think this game is perfect. And have voiced it on this forum, albeit not often. As there are "shills and stans co-ordinate and discredit that person" who criticize the game, there are those who would criticize the game every opportunity they get. Absolutely nothing about the game has any redeeming qualities..but yet, they keep on playing. And keeps on being vocal about how terrible the game is. Really makes you wonder.