ARC DPS (and all damage meters) are ruining the game

[LKEY.9567]

How to tell you were kicked from the squad for bad performence without telling it? Let me quess, someone told you to use fake LI only to be outdps'ed by healer which caused your kick?

If you wanna play bad, sure, but why blame the DPS meter? The squad has 10 people, why 9 of them should sacrifice their time only to carry you because you are entilted and lazy?

You don't want to use it, great, don't use one. Don't push your own agenda on people who use it. I use it, I do raid training every week for the last three years and new comers are ALWAYS happy about Arc as they are interested in their performence or need help with explanation of mechanics.

 

[megamino.1430]

What I've read so far is involving raid which is fine... However, in my case there's 1 particular mechanist (not surprising) bragging about their own DPS being big regardless if the person is HAM, it's on strike though. So yeah, this addon can create toxicity by bragging their own dps and being so proud even though it's a freaking mechanist.

Other than that, in my personal experience, I love seeing my DPS at the top of the chart or at least top 10 and I keep it to myself... depends on the content that you want to do, 30 people in average of 5k DPS is also viable for some open world bosses or metas AS LONG AS THEY UNDERSTAND THE MECHANICS

Mechanics is kings, what is the problem anyway with parsing DPS?

--- Prove Us Wrong 😄

[Zohane.7208]

Recently, running my usual t4 fractals, a party member asked me for my build, since he'd seen on arcdps that my dps wasn't up where it should typically be. When I showed him my build he gave me a new build (mine apparently was old and superseded) and that improved my dps quite significantly.

So yeah..... there's a lot of nice people using arcdps as well.

 

And quite frankly, despite my dps probably being subpar for a long time, no one kicked me or called me out in all that time.

[sokeenoppa.5384]

16 hours ago, SolidTx.3249 said:

- prove me wrong

 

-- the biggest issues in end game are balance related

-- there are far more "viable" classes that never get picked in LFG because they arent the snowcrows perfect meta build

-- the community is like lemmings and indexes on the classes that are perceived as making the content the easiest it can be; regardless of truth

-- ARC dps and the like have driven the community to a caustic state - where end game is not friendly to players trying to learn raiding and other end game content like high end fractals

-- if ANET really wanted to make end game more viable for all players - they would not allow any DPS meters - and this would improve end game for most players

-- the above would improve the game overall and the reputation of the community

Almost weekly ill complete my Raid/strike full clears with LFG groups playing meme classes such as core specs, power specter, Power scrapper etc etc. Never have i been kicked. Infact arc dps shows that im most of the time in top 3 dps wise with my memes.

 

TLDR: arc dps gives you a chance to show that you can pull your own Weight no matter what you play.

 

[Mungrul.9358]

10 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I don't see how killing/ccing some mobs in ow is in any way relevant to this thread or existance of meters. If you're running around in ow and do perfectly fine by whatever means -cc or not- then what's the issue here? Are people somehow telling you not to play what you want to play or what exactly is the point you're going for with this?

Sorry, it was an off-the-cuff, simplified example, as I was just off to bed.

 

It's more that the feedback loop is further reducing variety in encounter design because it becomes solely focussed on DPS. Roles other than DPS and healing gradually get excised from encounter design as players find more ways to bypass mechanics through overwhelming DPS, and the only feedback the community gives the developers is along the lines of "This profession is under-performing compared to others, buffs plz" (which, rather laughably, results in the scenario we're seeing now where easy-to-play builds are overwhelmingly dominating "high end" PvE).

 

No group of players ever comes back with suggestions on how to make the encounter design more interesting so that more roles can play a part in overcoming challenges.

 

DPS meters further contribute to this feedback loop, until "high-end" play becomes nothing more than memorising a series of button presses in order to optimise DPS. It's basically Guitar Hero. And Mechanist is the bass player from AC/DC.

[totally seriously.9138]

ARCDPS made me better, because I could actually see what was going on over time during a fight.

GW2 has a great and polite community. I have never heard some bullying someone, because of that. It actually worse if people don't now the mechanism of a boss and kill the hole team because of it.

I never point certain players out, because of bad DPS. I just ask in general to check their builds and most of them are thankful, because they were not aware.

[Cyninja.2954]

19 minutes ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

Sorry, it was an off-the-cuff, simplified example, as I was just off to bed.

 

It's more that the feedback loop is further reducing variety in encounter design because it becomes solely focussed on DPS. Roles other than DPS and healing gradually get excised from encounter design as players find more ways to bypass mechanics through overwhelming DPS, and the only feedback the community gives the developers is along the lines of "This profession is under-performing compared to others, buffs plz" (which, rather laughably, results in the scenario we're seeing now where easy-to-play builds are overwhelmingly dominating "high end" PvE).

That is actually not true. I get where you are coming from but I disagree on the conclusion you took.

Yes, if arcdps showed ONLY dps you might have a point (and it is unfortunate that some players treat it that way). It does so much more though. I keep repeating this in these threads but here again: dps is THE least interesting stat which you can derive from arcdps (or any combat parser at that). The far more useful and interesting data is:

- classes used

- boons given

- mechanics failed

- positioning and in fact the ENTIRE fight being re-playable within the dpslog report

- conditions cleansed

- rotations used by players

- and much much more

It's called a dps meter but in fact is a combat parser and as such delivers a large amount of data on an encounter. Being able to better understand and build around encounters increases the amount of ways to adopt strategies to beat them (for all skill levels). Just look at Harvest Temple CM and the variations which players found after the first kill to clear the fight. All thanks to large quantities of data thanks to combat parsers.

Seeing players work out boss encounters leads to more possibilities for the developers to design content with an expectation that it gets beaten. The recent strike missions are a great example. Most of them are far more mechanic heavy than most raid fights. Had the community not improved to the point where it is at, those fights would be impossible or near impossible to add to the game.

19 minutes ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

No group of players ever comes back with suggestions on how to make the encounter design more interesting so that more roles can play a part in overcoming challenges.

 

DPS meters further contribute to this feedback loop, until "high-end" play becomes nothing more than memorising a series of button presses in order to optimise DPS. It's basically Guitar Hero. And Mechanist is the bass player from AC/DC.

One has little to nothing to do with the other. Again, if you want more variety in boss mechanics, you need as much understanding of a fight as possible or else it becomes  task of frustration or impossibility to beat it. At which point it would not get designed.

The second is just human nature in optimizing and improving at a fight. Thanks to combat parsers you can even share this data with others.

Honestly, the only players I see complaining about combat parsers are the ones which either do not understand them, had some unfortunate run ins with toxic payers (and again, toxic player will be toxic no matter what) or feel excluded because they refuse to improve their game play to fit an encounters demands.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[ProtoGunner.4953]

Dude, don't be a crybaby and git gud.

[Ausar.9542]

19 hours ago, Lysico.4906 said:

Don’t use them.  I don’t.  Could care less what others say with them.    OP you are getting too caught up in what other people think. 

problem is, people like you exist in every MMO with DPS meters. You are the minority. The people that run the group content, are majority Min/Maxers and they have DPS standards that they use DPS meters to judge off of. This is in every MMO that uses Meters. 

 

So this prevents some players from being able to join the PvE content to even get experience and learn the encounters. 

I dont use add-ons, but I also been treated badly as such by those that do, and been kicked. Other utility isnt as respected as the DPS meter. 

[Ausar.9542]

2 hours ago, totally seriously.9138 said:

ARCDPS made me better, because I could actually see what was going on over time during a fight.

GW2 has a great and polite community. I have never heard some bullying someone, because of that. It actually worse if people don't now the mechanism of a boss and kill the hole team because of it.

I never point certain players out, because of bad DPS. I just ask in general to check their builds and most of them are thankful, because they were not aware.

I have no problem if Meters were a self engaging tool. But I dont support it as a tool that others can use to examine other players, because thats what leads to its historical toxic usage that the OP is complaining about. 

[Ausar.9542]

15 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Toxicity existed before dps meter and it will exist without them again. Players who want to be toxic will be. Let's not pretend this was not the case before.

Let me remind you once again:

- ping zerker or kick

- 5k AP, 80 only

- no nero, no ranger

- 4 warrior, 1 mesmer, all others kick

- exp (short for experienced with content) or kick

 

Remember those LFGs? While most 5 man content has been out-scaled by power creep that this is unlikely to return in a similar manner (as most easy content sees less gating), expect an increase in search "qualifiers" even if there is no dps meter. It's players doing guess work on what they have to omit from the party to increase success, only now not based around any actual data. I can even tell you right now what two of them would be based off of current class representation:

- mech only

- no elementalists

 

Again, lack of data has NEVER produced better results across the entire game.

 

well this was also due to poor game design around not having any defined endgame group roles in endgame PvE besides DPS. 

only role in vanilla GW2 was DPS and different ways of DPS, so all classes pretty much fell overtop of each other in competing for that one role in the group. Having more group roles in the original game would have open up more builds and classes to the endgame PvE content on a regular basis. 

[Linken.6345]

24 minutes ago, Ausar.9542 said:

problem is, people like you exist in every MMO with DPS meters. You are the minority. The people that run the group content, are majority Min/Maxers and they have DPS standards that they use DPS meters to judge off of. This is in every MMO that uses Meters. 

 

So this prevents some players from being able to join the PvE content to even get experience and learn the encounters. 

I dont use add-ons, but I also been treated badly as such by those that do, and been kicked. Other utility isnt as respected as the DPS meter. 

Get a tag start your own group advertise it as talk about dps=kick and go learn the content.

[KeoLegend.5132]

Its because ppl like you that i wish ARCDPS should be integrated with GW2 basic system.

 

No ARCDps = no way to know if you are doing good or bad damage / buff uptime.

No ARCDps = no way to increase and get better rotation-wise

No ARDCps = no way to compare your performance

No ARCDps= no way to get any relevant data for personal growth

[KeoLegend.5132]

Just now, KeoLegend.5132 said:

Its because ppl like you that i wish ARCDPS should be integrated with GW2 basic system.

 

No ARCDps = no way to know if you are doing good or bad damage / buff uptime.

No ARCDps = no way to increase and get better rotation-wise

No ARDCps = no way to compare your performance

No ARCDps= no way to get any relevant data for personal growth

 

My GF plays a AlacMirage very badly and this NEVER made her stay outside of ANY content. 

[kharmin.7683]

5 hours ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

Arc can show things like "Personal Skills": which skills are doing what % of your total damage also which things are causing you the most damage by %. You can see your Boon uptime, CC damage, a graph of your damage on each target. It can make a log of the fight that you can use to review the entire fight in a basic animation that shows the player positions and all the damage, boons, effects during the fight. Its really amazing information.

Disclaimer: I don't use ARC

This, though, seems fine to me.  Really cool, actually.  I think that if a meter did this kind of thing, but only for the player using it, then it wouldn't get so much blow-back.  It's the sharing of the data to other users that is often the sticking point as seen through the many, many previous threads on this topic.

[Moradorin.6217]

54 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Disclaimer: I don't use ARC

This, though, seems fine to me.  Really cool, actually.  I think that if a meter did this kind of thing, but only for the player using it, then it wouldn't get so much blow-back.  It's the sharing of the data to other users that is often the sticking point as seen through the many, many previous threads on this topic.

I understand the issue you are having but I think if you look at the facts you may reevaluate your position about arc. The part of arc that shows other peoples performance is all based on data you can already see as a player. WHat arc does is parse the info you can see in game and just does the math for you. People could still collect up the info from the combat output in game and be able to say what the other people inthe party are doing for dps, which skills are doing the damage, etc, etc. But as Im sure you are aware its hard to make sense of the info the game outputs to us. Its like it gives us the DPS info but in a useless form. That is, the only real way to learn what works for your class and to learn to play it at its best is to see what is working and what is not. The only real way to see that is with ARC. Now I know you may be thinking to yourself that you can figure that stuff out by just seeing what the in game text says and looking at big numbers, but really even that would require you half playing the scroll through and pick apart the info and ponder on it each fight. ARC just does it all for you and plces into nice windows you can move around.

 

The point I wana make is that data is already available to each user. Arc just puts it in nice windows. Also I 100% understand not wanting to feel like other people are able to scrutinize and understand. For what its worth, people have to be in your group/squad to see that data. Strangers that happen to be hitting the same boss outside your party are not visible. So anyone who can see the data is impacted by it and the player has accepting grouping with them. So it all mostly boils down to avoiding grouping with people who are jerks or overly demanding if you dont wana deal with it.

 

Personally, I leave arc on but I dont tell people about what I see unless I think it will be helpful and I am careful to be polite and non-confrontational. Some times people can be jerks I know, but they might still be jerks without arc. 😉

Edited September 6, 2022 by Moradorin.6217

[xChris.8904]

21 hours ago, SolidTx.3249 said:

- prove me wrong

 

-- the biggest issues in end game are balance related

-- there are far more "viable" classes that never get picked in LFG because they arent the snowcrows perfect meta build

-- the community is like lemmings and indexes on the classes that are perceived as making the content the easiest it can be; regardless of truth

-- ARC dps and the like have driven the community to a caustic state - where end game is not friendly to players trying to learn raiding and other end game content like high end fractals

-- if ANET really wanted to make end game more viable for all players - they would not allow any DPS meters - and this would improve end game for most players

-- the above would improve the game overall and the reputation of the community

-- the biggest issue in end game is lack of a constant stream of challenging content. strike mission cms were a success in my opinion and they filled the gap for a while but when is the next one coming? between that and HT cm it is gonna be months. They should also be looking at fractals and raids considering how many people repeat them and how many others are interested in these game modes. balance between classes is lacking a lot but that isn't that much of an issue because at least raids are quite easy content. you dont have to pick the spec combining the highest dps with the easiest rotation to do them. You could literally play whatever

-- they aren't picked because most people don't care about playing what they like, they want to take the simplest option there is, kill the boss and that is it. if you are playing for fun obviously you can take anything, it doesn't have to be in snowcrows. and some people do it. although snowcrows covers the majority of builds if not everything, you just have to look at the archived section as well. using the word meta is bad in this context, i could take something completely off meta and as a skilled raider outdps pugs without breaking a sweat. In that scenario it would definitely look good

-- no lfg will ever force you to play specific classes when it comes to dps, at least on EU, speaking from my experience (maybe with 1 in 100 exception).  The only thing that might be specified is power or condi dps depending on the encounters. Both can work everywhere but in some cases they are suboptimal and unless you are very experienced you will underperform.

-- arcdps is completely irrelevant to raid or fractal trainings. everytime i have ran one, i have never bothered looking at it. Even when everyone was doing below 10k. it doesn't matter that much at the first stages because you know people have to become comfortable with the content. Although ideally when getting into endgame you should at least have a proper build and know how to use it. if someone is unfriendly it is definitely on the person, arcdps isn't forcing your behavior. 

-- Anet doesn't have to ban a useful tool that helps people improve their perfomance, when it is completely optional to use. if you don't like it, don't install it. A large amount of raiders play only because they like to push themselves as much as possible and that translates to high dps and fast kills. Without being able to track them the result would be the hardcore endgame scene completely dying, most of us would stop raiding because it would take away part of the fun. So you are like completely wrong here

[ugrakarma.9416]

21 hours ago, Lysico.4906 said:

Don’t use them.  I don’t.  Could care less what others say with them.    OP you are getting too caught up in what other people think. 

this,

and the last time i see someone blabling something about DPS was 3yers ago++ on some fractal.

[captrowdy.9561]

I see both sides of it. I finally gave in and got it just so I can improve my dps on herald when I’m running with my wvw guild. It does add a bit of stress. 

[RadiantWolf.2058]

Arc doesn't turn jerk players into jerk players, it just gives them a megaphone, this is true of all dps meters in all MMORPGS. I find them valuable and so do a lot of people. I don't care how other people on do it, I like having that information to make sure that *I*  am contributing my part as a member of an organized group.

[Lottie.5370]

20 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

My only complaint is that you can't measure healing, it leaves supports out in the cold, and we really have no way to optimise our healing without just guesswork and the terrible in-game combat log.

 

You can measure healing using arc. There's even a healing stats arc addon.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

46 minutes ago, Lottie.5370 said:

 

You can measure healing using arc. There's even a healing stats arc addon.

It doesn't support healing for area report, so you have nothing to compare it to in actual combat. Optimisation is all about checking yourself against other players, not benchmarks.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

16 hours ago, stormemperor.3745 said:

make all classes balanced. I saw weavers doing their rotations, apm going over 9k getting carpal tunnel syndrome all the while getting bottom dps...

Why? because anet nerfs fun classes. 

I wish everyone could play any class anywhere and get good results from it. Not best results just good. I simply want variety.

Terrible DPS on a spec that can reach high DPS is not Anet's fault, it's the player's fault. 

You can play whatever you want, but the results not only depend on Anet's balancing. Last I checked good results due to Anet's balancing gets people to complain that FB/Mirage/Mech OP.
Know how to play the build and have proper gear. Rifle Mech won't reach 30k+ in Minstrel gear.

[SinisterSlay.6973]

I find the meter really helpful for my own training.

I sat at that golem doing 18k dps easily.

In real world I'm struggling to hit 10k dps.  I can measure my own improvement and rotation discipline using the gauge. Before I started I was only hitting like 3,000 DPS in normal fights.  I'm at a point now where stuff dies too fast, kills me too fast, or moves around to much for me to hit consistently. But I'm still improving.  I saw 12dps on a bounty yesterday.  

DPS meter is helpful and should be part of the game interface.

[Woof.8246]

True , dps meter is ruining the game.

 

For example people that are obsessed  with DPS evaluation , are constantly in Reddit , asking for the Mechanist's head on a silver plate .

While the majority , have a blast playing a more relaxed class .

 

Look no further than this Reddit post that was created a few hours ago and compares the Class damage based on the Heroic Temple encounter .

While the majority of the population is un-affected and cannot reach those numbers

Edited September 6, 2022 by Woof.8246