ARC DPS (and all damage meters) are ruining the game

[Sobx.1758]

4 minutes ago, Woof.8246 said:

True , dps meter is ruining the game.

 

For example people that are obsessed  with DPS evaluation , are constantly in Reddit , asking for the Mechanist's head on a silver plate .

While the majority , have a blast playing a relaxed class

If the meters were not a thing,. the dps difference and the effort needed -or whatever else people would want to complain about- would still be clear, even if just due to training golems.

So no.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[NCGamingPro.4013]

Using DPS meters doesn't mean you have to run meta builds. I personally use Arc Dps in the interest of comparing myself to my friends and it also allows me to compare and see where I can improve. I don't think it ruins end game gameplay or makes it unfriendly. On the contrary it gives you a chance to improve, but also make the game "easier". Isn't it the goal of the endgame to make your character as powerful as possible to make it easier? Arc Dps and other DPS meters only help you see where you could improve.

 

[Skiiney.7290]

nobody cares about your soldier core ranger build omegalul

[Helli.1279]

i agree with the person above

[Astralporing.1957]

11 hours ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

Sorry, it was an off-the-cuff, simplified example, as I was just off to bed.

 

It's more that the feedback loop is further reducing variety in encounter design because it becomes solely focussed on DPS. Roles other than DPS and healing gradually get excised from encounter design as players find more ways to bypass mechanics through overwhelming DPS, and the only feedback the community gives the developers is along the lines of "This profession is under-performing compared to others, buffs plz" (which, rather laughably, results in the scenario we're seeing now where easy-to-play builds are overwhelmingly dominating "high end" PvE).

 

No group of players ever comes back with suggestions on how to make the encounter design more interesting so that more roles can play a part in overcoming challenges.

 

DPS meters further contribute to this feedback loop, until "high-end" play becomes nothing more than memorising a series of button presses in order to optimise DPS. It's basically Guitar Hero. And Mechanist is the bass player from AC/DC.

That was already a thing before ArcDPS was introduced to the picture. The difference is that people were guessing what did good dps and what did not.This meant, for example, that in more demanding content rangers and necros were not allowed, and in case the group was doing bad damage, and commander could not see someone underperforming, they started kicking all non-elementalists regardless of who was actually at fault here (or even if everyone was equally at fault).

The issues were exactly the same as they are now, it's just players' approach to "solving" them was way more hamfisted and arbitrary than today. Which was not a good thing, and not something we should ever want to return.

[Khisanth.2948]

15 hours ago, Trogs.1802 said:

Except recently a huge amounts of bans went out to innocent people using ACT... a bunch of streamers showcasing the meter were banned. 

They have 0 tolerance for dps meters, regardless of intent. You have to be absolutely certain that no one in your group or others are aware you are using one. Because they can simply report you, and poof, you're banned. 

 

That is not very surprising. Its ToS probably has similar verbiage to GW2. If they never made an exception like GW2 did then those people are providing evidence for their ToS violation.

 

14 hours ago, mercury ranique.2170 said:

Yes you are correct that part of the community tends to overfocus on DPS

So does ANet when it comes to encounter design. The community's focus is just a response to ANet's design decisions.

 

[AliamRationem.5172]

3 hours ago, Woof.8246 said:

True , dps meter is ruining the game.

 

For example people that are obsessed  with DPS evaluation , are constantly in Reddit , asking for the Mechanist's head on a silver plate .

While the majority , have a blast playing a more relaxed class .

 

Look no further than this Reddit post that was created a few hours ago and compares the Class damage based on the Heroic Temple encounter .

While the majority of the population is un-affected and cannot reach those numbers

Look on the bright side.  When mechanist gets nerfed you won't even notice the difference!

[solemace.8427]

I like arc because it helps me measure my personal improvement. Better rotations, less mechanics failed, watching back fights to see what happened. I used FFLogs in 14 for the same reason. 

 

I'm not some great meta arbiter I just like improving at the game.

Edited September 6, 2022 by solemace.8427

[gateless gate.8406]

Among all the problems/things that are "ruining the game," this is very low priority. Hyperbole is for kids.

[Omega.6801]

Much in the same way sticks don't hurt people but people hurt people, DPS meters aren't "ruin the game", if at all certain players/communities are.

Many builds are viable. Raids are old content balanced for players who do 24ish k dps on the golem. Thanks to powercreep, many builds are able to pull that off, no problem. The players who only want to go for "the most possible" instead of "whatever works" are gatekeeping, not the DPS meters. You can choose what kind of player you want to be and you are free to open your own LFG with your own requirements.
DPS meters are a good tool to check your own performance and improve where necessary. That is not elitism. If you want to get the endgame rewards you should also want to improve to a point here you're a capable and experienced player. DPS meters can help with that.
Privacy concerns, I have no issue with. I don't care if others se my performance, my gear, the skills i'm using or the cc i do. But I know that this is a personal decision and not to everyones liking.

tl:dr: I wouldn't call DPS meters a blessing, but they're certainly not a curse "ruining the game". They are a tool, the difference comes with who uses them to what purpose.

[Stadsport.8714]

On 9/5/2022 at 8:48 AM, SolidTx.3249 said:

- prove me wrong

 

-- the biggest issues in end game are balance related

-- there are far more "viable" classes that never get picked in LFG because they arent the snowcrows perfect meta build

-- the community is like lemmings and indexes on the classes that are perceived as making the content the easiest it can be; regardless of truth

-- ARC dps and the like have driven the community to a caustic state - where end game is not friendly to players trying to learn raiding and other end game content like high end fractals

-- if ANET really wanted to make end game more viable for all players - they would not allow any DPS meters - and this would improve end game for most players

-- the above would improve the game overall and the reputation of the community

A lot of people concern themselves over their DPS too much, this is true. But someone's DPS (or lack thereof) isn't the problem and isn't ruining endgame. If you're getting kicked out of a group for what ArcDPS is showing, it's not Arc's fault. The goal is to kill the boss, and if you aren't contributing to killing the boss in a meaningful way, then you're just mad at ArcDPS for letting others know. 

 

If you're joining training/learning groups, no one is going to give you a hard time about less-than-ideal DPS. Seriously. 

 

If you're in a training group and someone is giving you grief for substandard DPS, either they're the problem, or your DPS is REALLY bad, and that can obviously be communicated in a respectful way (so, they're still the problem IMO). 

If you're in experienced groups and putting out substandard DPS, as a DPS role, then you shouldn't be in an experienced group. Build/rotation/equipment guides are readily available. Asking people to put in a fairly small amount of effort when participating in group content is not unreasonable.

 

It is true that there are a lot of people who are obsessed with "the meta," but those people are a vocal minority in reality.

This kind of discourse comes up pretty frequently on the forums and on Reddit. If you just make an effort to set up your build/rotation/equipment properly, and seek out/join content that's appropriate for your experience level, it's VERY rare to encounter any sort of toxicity in this game, even in endgame content. Between general niceness of the GW2 community, the structure of Training LFGs, the abundance of training guilds, emboldened mode, and the "stepping stones" to content (Fractals > Strikes > Raids, for example), GW2's endgame content is very easy and low-stress to get involved in. 

 

People are only going to give you a hard time if you misrepresent yourself and try to punch way above your weight, or if you stubbornly refuse to improve yourself. 

[Stadsport.8714]

On 9/5/2022 at 10:39 AM, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

My only complaint is that you can't measure healing, it leaves supports out in the cold, and we really have no way to optimise our healing without just guesswork and the terrible in-game combat log.

ArcDPS does measure healing (and a whole lot more) JSYK. In fact, "Self Stats" even has healing on by default. 

[A Hamster.2580]

On 9/5/2022 at 8:48 AM, SolidTx.3249 said:

- prove me wrong

 

-- the biggest issues in end game are balance related

-- there are far more "viable" classes that never get picked in LFG because they arent the snowcrows perfect meta build

-- the community is like lemmings and indexes on the classes that are perceived as making the content the easiest it can be; regardless of truth

-- ARC dps and the like have driven the community to a caustic state - where end game is not friendly to players trying to learn raiding and other end game content like high end fractals

-- if ANET really wanted to make end game more viable for all players - they would not allow any DPS meters - and this would improve end game for most players

-- the above would improve the game overall and the reputation of the community

I form experience groups in LFG for end game content every week (raids, strikes, fractals).

 

If dps meters did not exist:

1. I would auto kick anyone that is not playing a meta build (External websites and discords still exist for players to share what is meta even without a dps meter. Players can still figure out what is meta by using the training golem). 
2. I would request everyone to ping traits and gears when joining and auto kick anyone with a sub-optimal set up.
3. I would have strict "kill proof" requirements for raids and strikes

With no dps meters, you probably think you can "hide your performance" as a new/casual player by sneaking into a listed experience group, but any skilled player can instantly tell when someone does not know what they are doing. I would block and kick anyone not stacking close enough on the group for heals and boons. I can also tell if someone is not doing a proper rotation just by looking at their animation (for example spamming longbow 1 as a soulbeast the whole time). Such players are just wasting the other 9 players time and deserve to get blocked and kicked. And don't even think about trying to sneak in as a healer because a healer's dps won't matter. Those players more often than not end up dead so their whole sub squad inevitably wipes in the end. That's a sign to block and replace the healer. If you try to sneak in as a quickness/alac dps source and multiple players from your sub complain about low uptime on those boons even for that particular encounter, expect to get blocked and kicked as well.

 

I would not be surprise if a blacklist is ultimately created within the community so commanders can pre-block certain players from trying to sneak in.

 

 

But since a dps meter does exist, I do not have to do any of the above. I imagine many other commanders would be more strict just like me to get our clears efficiently. You should be glad that arc dps exist.

 

Edited September 6, 2022 by A Hamster.2580

[vicky.9751]

sounds like a skill isssue/s

Edited September 12, 2022 by vicky.9751
meme

[MajinSoul.4512]

I don't run a snowcrows meta build myself on my main (I am playing Power Soulbeast with Sword/Axe) yet I often find myself being top dps (instanced content and open world). Not once has anyone told me to switch to the Axe/Axe snowcrows build so arcdps existing definitely doesn't force you into anything. I recently geared my condi Specter and when I hit the golem I ended up at like 18k dps which is almost half of what is possible according to the benchmark. After some more research and practice I managed to get to 28k. That is one of the benefits of arcdps: to show you where you can improve.

 

The other big advantage is that you can use it as an indicator as to whether it is worth sticking with a party or not. I have not once confronted anyone about their poor performance but I will ditch the party if arcdps is showing me that there are dps players competing with the healers' dps.

 

Quote

if ANET really wanted to make end game more viable for all players - they would not allow any DPS meters - and this would improve end game for most players

The absence of arcdps doesn't suddenly make endgame more viable for all players. In fact, the opposite will happen. If players don't have a tool to identify people who are slacking off they will just raise the barrier of entry to minimize the chances of people slacking off. That means higher requirements for joining content e.g. more LI, KP, UFE, etc. which basically means it will be a lot more difficult for new players to get into endgame content.

[sokeenoppa.5384]

Before arcdps your typical dungeon lfg looked like this:

AC p1 5 berzerker warriors 10k achievement points ping gear.

With arc dps we actually have build diversity now.

[Linken.6345]

2 hours ago, sokeenoppa.5384 said:

Before arcdps your typical dungeon lfg looked like this:

AC p1 5 berzerker warriors 10k achievement points ping gear.

With arc dps we actually have build diversity now.

It was usualy 4 warriors and mesmer or elemenatlist was it not?

[Bakeneko.5826]

Hot take:

 Inexperienced players who take soldiers set into exp run are ruining the game

[LadyKitty.6120]

Oh dear, is this like 102th thread on this exact same topic? So, for starters, DPS meters have done LOTS of good when it comes to variety of builds allowed. Back in 2017 when Kitty started raiding, she got bored of metabuilds quickly (as she does with any build after a few days) and back then it was insta-kick for wrong spec if commander didn't have arcdps. Meanwhile Kitty could say to commanders with arcdps that she'll voluntarily leave if her DPS was below peoples who were playing metabuilds. Surprise: Kitty kept up with the DPS on her simplified builds due to playing them with better efficiency that metabuild players who played multiply more difficult builds way more inefficiently and often having more issues with mechs since Kitty liked having some cheese in her builds. (like built-in stability for no-green Cairn before it became popular, though druids initially really hated Kitty for taking that 8k damage for extra 5s DPS uptime though she ofc had quick self-heal ready every time)

When arcdps became more common, other skilled players started also using off-meta builds for variety as well as newer players for simplicity and that way effectiveness with kitless holo as good example. Wouldn't have happened without DPS meters. Though ofc players with inefficient builds (including metabuilds with wrong gears) and lack of skill enough to get outdps'd by healers got revealed but at least kinder commanders linked to resources for better builds and how to play them before kicking.

Pre-Arcdps? Insta-kick for wrong spec or blaming and kicking that wrong spec for bad DPS after 1 wipe even if in fact they were the best DPS and some DH did stuff like pulled reds to group at VG wiping the group. Happened to Kitty as that wrong spec.

And so, nothing has changed for squads that do require that performance within 10% of speedrunners: they haven't accepted off-meta and won't in the future. Those who aren't as strict don't really care about what you play as long as you can deliver the DPS or support stuffs like others for that role at that same performance level. Off-meta DPS just has the innate handicap of lower ceiling and thus requires relatively greater mastery than meta picks, though with some LI builds skill needed for mastery is pressing a few buttons every 30s.

[sokeenoppa.5384]

2 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

It was usualy 4 warriors and mesmer or elemenatlist was it not?

Oh yeah, yes it was. Well it was bad anyways 

[Chrysaliss.8720]

There was a time when there was no dps meter. And let me tell you, things were WAY worse then, they are now. People used Achievement points as a measure of performance for group content. And anything other than staff elementalist was usually not allowed.

Then DPS meter came and guess what. People found out, that staff ele was kitten and most other classes did better.

DPS metters made the game far less toxic than it used to be without it.

[Stadsport.8714]

7 hours ago, MajinSoul.4512 said:

I don't run a snowcrows meta build myself on my main (I am playing Power Soulbeast with Sword/Axe) yet I often find myself being top dps (instanced content and open world). Not once has anyone told me to switch to the Axe/Axe snowcrows build so arcdps existing definitely doesn't force you into anything. I recently geared my condi Specter and when I hit the golem I ended up at like 18k dps which is almost half of what is possible according to the benchmark. After some more research and practice I managed to get to 28k. That is one of the benefits of arcdps: to show you where you can improve.

 

The other big advantage is that you can use it as an indicator as to whether it is worth sticking with a party or not. I have not once confronted anyone about their poor performance but I will ditch the party if arcdps is showing me that there are dps players competing with the healers' dps.

 

The absence of arcdps doesn't suddenly make endgame more viable for all players. In fact, the opposite will happen. If players don't have a tool to identify people who are slacking off they will just raise the barrier of entry to minimize the chances of people slacking off. That means higher requirements for joining content e.g. more LI, KP, UFE, etc. which basically means it will be a lot more difficult for new players to get into endgame content.

I am but a simple axe/axe Power Berserker, and I'm well aware Bladesworn can pump out higher DPS. But to your point, a DPS meter alone isn't the only measure of success. You still have to know your rotation well enough to keep relatively high upkeep while dodging and managing mechanics. Despite some people thinking a DPS meter will inevitably lead to everyone playing the same cookie cutter meta builds, I often find in open world group content, the "lineup" is a lot more diverse, because maintaining your DPS uptime is more complicated than it is on a golem.

[Vandalffs.7236]

Wow this might be the worst take on GW2 in a while.

 

Something that gets forgotten about is that if you join a DPS, it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to pull your weight and do good DPS. If you are being out DPSd by supports you are not doing good enough.

 

If the healers gave a tiny amount of heals they would be flamed, so it goes both ways. DPS is not a job where you can slack off, supports are doing their best so you can clear the encounter as quick as possible. To do otherwise is selfish.

 

ARC has let people craft better builds, and makes life easier for teams. 

 

"Not friendly to new players". My brother in christ rifle mech exists! The most brain dead DPS spec since dagger/dagger deadeye was a thing. I don't know what prompted you to make this post, maybe you got kicked or something, but this makes a lot of the reddit complaints look sensible by comparison.

 

Either that or you're trolling so hard in which case great bait, you got me.

[Ashantara.8731]

Please, put the OP and 9 other players with a similar mindset into the Strike Mission CMs to go for the titles -- and make a video of the resulting fiasco, then have them explain what they think went wrong there.😉

[Linken.6345]

1 hour ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Please, put the OP and 9 other players with a similar mindset into the Strike Mission CMs to go for the titles -- and make a video of the resulting fiasco, then have them explain what they think went wrong there.😉

Obviously it would be the other 9 players fault no matter who of them you asked.