Balance patch preview for Engineers

[Bomboed.5697]

8 minutes ago, Noah Salazar.5430 said:

• Kinetic Accelerators: This trait no longer grants quickness in PvP and WvW. Instead, it grants might and fury.

@Arheundel.6451What do you mean, how am i supoust to have self/aoe quickness now

it's only trait that apply quickness to others...

In Anet opinion, you are not supposed to have quickness at all.

[wasss.1208]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

There are zero changes to astral force listed unless I'm missing something. Having no access to Celestial Avatar means you cannot heal much if at all since all you'd have are staff skills.

With the change to staff, you generate a lot of celestial juice, since you can now target allies. The healing you do with it is pretty insignificant, but the green numbers will get your celestial force back pretty fast. After the changes, I don't think druids will be really starved for it. They also got some neat stuff outside of celestial form, like a pulsing stability field. I'm excited to see, if it becomes viable, or meta.

And since this is an Engineer thread: support scrapper was metadefining for years now, in wvw, so nerfs on it were expected. But support scrapper is also the only meta engineer build for zerging, which got a lot of outgoing healing nerf in the past, just got their quickness removed, which wasn't the main point of the build, but it was there, it also lost a lot of condition cleanse, with the cooldown increases. On top of that, they slap PvE and WvW scrapper along with the gyro changes, which feels unnecessary/overkill to me.

[Alchimist.4738]

27 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

I mean...after 4 years of scrapper meta, 2 years of unkillable scrapper roamer grenade spammer cele god super sayan mode...you should have expect changes coming. Furthermore scrapper is not ruined at all...simply now people will have to use brain on where and when to use the gyro wards..rather than superspeed facetank their way to victory....at least for you there is no casting time on these wards

Defense Field being ground targeted is fine by me, however, Gyros being too will not only remove the uniqueness of Scrapper, it's like removing the teleportation from Specter's wells, but also considerably reduce their usability.

 

Sneak Gyro is absolutely useless now, it's like a bad Shadow Refuge, Blast Gyro is extremely telegraphed with the mobility you could always keep up with enemies trying to get out of the are of effect, now it's laughably easy to get out of it, Shredder Gyro was a great way to pump more damage while pursuing or being chased, now it's just a boring area denial which many build can do a better job at, Purge Gyro and Bulwark Gyro remain alright but are considerably worst is WvW where you won't have time to sit in them in the middle of a fight.

 

It's overall an awful change, surprisingly in a pretty solid patch otherwise, there was a reason why Gyros became mobile a while ago.

[MLinni.6109]

OMG, CMC. Please do NOT make gyros and defense field stationary in WvW. Aren't the horrible cleansing nerfs bad enough? Now you are supposed to play a class which not only is the least rewarded in the game (no damage, no kill credits, no loot) but will now also be kludgy and unfun to play? WHY?

It is SO nice to run up to people to drop a defense field on them and keep shielding them. Now it will just sit somewhere in the wilderness as soon as people move and perhaps only be useful in a choke.

Same with gyros. Your heal is going to be left behind? In a fast paced game mode? How is bulwark gyro even supposed to work? Have you also considered that this is a class which is easier to pick up for new players since it doesn't have to fiddle with ground targets in the middle of combat? There might be a reason people are not playing weavers.

I have seen so much promising stuff for the other classes, but this is a change really nobody asked for. I hope it not just because the GW2 engine cannot handle moving wells without being strained or something.

[Euthymias.7984]

I can understand that they want to weaken Scrapper in WvW to make room for other supports but there must be a more elegant way of doing this

Maybe increase the ICD of Purity of Purpose for WvW or reduce the number of pulses or durations for their respective gyro fields, but making them stationary is just a really awful change. Please reconsider this, Anet.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Euthymias.7984

[MisterDizzy.4713]

WTF??? Why would you do that?  I hate those targeted wells because its hard to see where your cursor is in big fights.  Why would you nerf this?  

Also, arn't the point of gyros that they're mobile wells?  Isn't that literally one of the selling points of the class when it first came out? You're just going to take a feature you sold the class on out of the game?  Seriously?  

Edited September 17, 2022 by MisterDizzy.4713

[Infusion.7149]

2 hours ago, Oghier.7419 said:

What mechanist nerfs?  There's nothing in the notes.  Did they say something that is not reflected in the written change notes?

 

 

•  Mech Arms: Jade Cannons: Mech no longer gains the effect  Aim-Assisted Rocket
•  Mech Frame: Variable Mass Distributor: Mech no longer inherits Ferocity

[MagnustheDemon.5174]

Well these changes suck. I finally got to 80 and unlocked scrapper for how easy it was. I cant do rapid inputs nor is my hand eye coordination great enough to use the mouse to place aoes and move out of threats at the same time. I feel cheated out of something that was very helpful to me. First it was impact savant, now this. Dont they care for people who struggle to play? Sure, maybe i should be playing a single player game but thats neither here nor there....guess i'll just find another class and start the journey to 80 all over

[Endaris.1452]

Great, I lost count of how many times Scrapper received completely game changing overhauls now.

I would love to believe that this is a joke but as a matter of fact, the new blast gyro well would be something that would probably be among the better ones when compared to chronomancer wells.....

[Vrath.1754]

CMC drops a duce on Scrapper's what a shocker. Who would find these changes wanted or acceptable. Well I'm sure there's a couple forum goers who do. 

[Sharrakor.3470]

I don't see scrappers being played in wvw after this. I also don't expect to play scrapper again after this. Gyros were an integral part of the spec, and the fact that they centered on you was my favorite part. I tend to lose track of my mouse so this change just kills the class for me. Why would you play scrapper over another class after this? Also in general making the game more stationary puddles seems questionable. This portents turning everything into flavorless goop. So now is scrappers class mechanic the little robot visual above their otherwise identical wells? I feel like there's so many other ways they could have hit this in wvw Cds # of pulses etc....

 

[Firebeard.1746]

I only run my scrapper for superspeed in river of souls, otherwise I don't touch it with a 10 ft pole. i was hoping having a new balance guy would fix things, but now I'm convinced he was the one nerfing catalyst for the top 1% while the rest of us refused to play it. Are mantras ground targeted? How many other support abilities are ground targeted?

The only comment I have is that perhaps instead of forcing how well skills operate, you make it toggleable, on a per-skill basis. Right now, chrono sees almost no usage for its support boons, and part of that, I believe has to do with the fact it still uses clunky ground-targeted wells. There are a few places where it's nice, but in 80-90% of cases they're inferior. In fact I was flabberghasted catalyst's orb was ground-targeted for this reason. Critical ground targeted AOEs are one of my biggest pet peeves in MMOs. 

[Bishop.5938]

What would the advantage be in playing scrapper over core now in pvp? 

[HotDelirium.7984]

12 hours ago, Bomboed.5697 said:

Quick summary:

1. Scrapper is probably ruined
2. Turrets are still useless
3. Most of Gadgets are still useless
4. Not a single change for Pistols

....this is not a class and mechanics balance overhaul. This stream was mainly about pvp and wvw changes which they will also be taking a look at after feedback and after implimentation. Your summary may be addressed at a later time. They JUST got a new team lead (cmc) so if this presentation was from a few weeks to a few months of effort, we are in very good hands.

Edited September 17, 2022 by HotDelirium.7984

[HotDelirium.7984]

5 hours ago, MisterDizzy.4713 said:

WTF??? Why would you do that?  I hate those targeted wells because its hard to see where your cursor is in big fights.  Why would you nerf this?  

Also, arn't the point of gyros that they're mobile wells?  Isn't that literally one of the selling points of the class when it first came out? You're just going to take a feature you sold the class on out of the game?  Seriously?  

They have options for seeing the cursor more clearly now and you have many  ground targeting options.

[HotDelirium.7984]

8 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

The complete topsy turvy change of gyros because reasons will probably mean scrappers are effectively deleted from WvW, lol. Healers wont bother to micromanage AoE, it's much simpler to just have it on your feet. Will probably get replaced by aurashare heal tempests and mesmers for veil again. Is it going to be better or worse for the overall meta? Eh dont know. I will assume that the necro/guard combo is getting buffs instead.

Classic Anet. Dont really know why I expect anything different at this point.

People are misconstruing the skill ceiling with these alleged "just cause" changes. You moving outside of your wells is your choice and having them attached to you takes zero skill. People DO have options of snapping the aoe right on top of enemies and using key binds so if people are upset that they have to put it a tiny bit more effort to function, well GL HF.

[Alcatraznc.3869]

7 minutes ago, HotDelirium.7984 said:

People are misconstruing the skill ceiling with these alleged "just cause" changes. You moving outside of your wells is your choice and having them attached to you takes zero skill. People DO have options of snapping the aoe right on top of enemies and using key binds so if people are upset that they have to put it a tiny bit more effort to function, well GL HF.

 

You talk about "skill" but if I use your logic there is no skill in Herald pulsing out boons for simply existing. There is no skill in Tempest pressing 1 button and giving heal + aura + boons + cleansing. There is no skill in FB doing his FB thing. 

 

And yet none of these has been drastically changed.

[Dawdler.8521]

29 minutes ago, HotDelirium.7984 said:

People are misconstruing the skill ceiling with these alleged "just cause" changes. You moving outside of your wells is your choice and having them attached to you takes zero skill. People DO have options of snapping the aoe right on top of enemies and using key binds so if people are upset that they have to put it a tiny bit more effort to function, well GL HF.

You mean snapping your heal gyro on top of the enemies? Or the purge gyro? Or perhaps the bulwark gyro?

Sure I can see some advantage to having them ranged AoE - full dps shredder gyro into an enemy zerg for example. But the necro will always be zerg dps because you know... Anet.

Imagine if they said well necro wells are no longer wells now and instead are single target projectiles, because reasons. GL HF. That's how Anet has balanced the engineer ever since HoT.

I never play scrapper anymore, not even after support buffs and whatnot. It just wasnt the same after they ruined the lightning gyros. And even then I'd rather have the old follower gyros back than the well garbage.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Dawdler.8521

[HazyDaisy.4107]

Up until a few months back I enjoyed using my scrapper to yak scort (in addition to fighting), then with the nerf to SS duration, slighly daunted, I persisted, afterall I could still use it to yak scort, I just needed to plan my rotations better. 

 

I suppose after Oct 4th I can still use it for Yak scorting since it doesn't seem to have any other purpose now.

[Stalima.5490]

At least the utility goggles are marginally more effective, even if they will still never be used... I am just going to assume that they forgot to upgrade gadgeteers effect to match the resistance since it isn't in there.

[Alchimist.4738]

2 hours ago, HotDelirium.7984 said:

People are misconstruing the skill ceiling with these alleged "just cause" changes. You moving outside of your wells is your choice and having them attached to you takes zero skill. People DO have options of snapping the aoe right on top of enemies and using key binds so if people are upset that they have to put it a tiny bit more effort to function, well GL HF.

It's the player choice, but it's also heavily impacted by other players. In PvE that's fine because mobility isn't as important, but in PvP and WvW it's crucial, when your opponents pressure you you can't just sit in your wells, unless you play on point in PvP, but even then you might want to move in and out of it. That's not even talking about offensive wells which can easily be avoided by simply walking out of them. In PvP/WvW wells are traditionally used as area denial, but in the case of Scrapper they were so much more, Blast and Sneak Gyro were great tools to initiate fights by jumping on top of your opponents with the proper timing. 

Furthermore, ground targeted skills require good positioning but other than that I wouldn't call them "skilful" abilities, it's just as "skilful" as moving with your teammates to protect them with your Gyros, or timing you Blast Gyro to explode when you jump on the enemy. And people aren't annoyed because ground targeted Gyros are harder to use, they are not, but because Scrapper lost some of its identity and Gyros are suddenly far worse than they were, with maybe Shredder Gyro being situationally better for area denial.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Alchimist.4738

[ThrakathNar.4537]

There's a lot to say about this patch, but starting with:

 

The Good

• Mechanised Deployment buff is actually pretty huge for S/D builds in PvP, Holo struggles a lot with cleanse generally, and this might actually make Tools Holo good again.
• Shield nerfs getting reverted is good, that was a dumb change.
• PLB getting damage back is good, although I don't think the reasoning was quite there (IMO the philosophy should be "When the skill has a huge telegraph, it's allowed to do CC and damage")
• Utility googles buff is good, but they're still probably worse than elixir U (unless Gadgeteer isn't broken, maybe)
• Coolant blast buff is good, but it's still not as good as elixir H (just remove the self burning from Cauterise completely, please).
• Impact Savant buff is good, actually makes it a net zero trait for supports instead of net negative.

 

The Bad

• Gyros....... Yeah. Personally, I think Defence field being ground targeted can work, but it really kills the feel of Scrapper's motion to have the gyros be static. People on the forums have been comparing them to Chrono and Necro wells, but neither is really a fair comparison. Chrono wells are all limited to 3 seconds, Scrapper wells are all 5 or 6 seconds so it's much harder to actually land the entire thing. Necro wells are a similar duration, but are generally stronger than Scrapper wells - look at Well of Power compared to Purge Gyro. Purge Gyro literally just cleanses condis and gives a light field, Well of Power converts condis, stunbreaks, gives might, and is a combo field. Granted it's harder to get the full value, but it is so many worlds stronger. Comparing Well of Suffering to Shredder Gyro (using PvP or PvE coefficients), the former does more damage, is unblockable, gives vuln and is a combo field, the latter just has a finisher. Scrapper wells would need a massive buff if they are to remain competitive.
• Takedown Round, these sort of "more damage when you're missing endurance traits" are generally pretty bad design, since it encourages blowing dodge rolls that you should be saving.
• Was Throw Mine still overpowered after removing the knockback? I know that boon rip got nerfed across the board in this patch (which isn't a good thing), but I think this skill got hit far harder than most, since the boonrip aspect of the toolbelt got deleted entirely.
• Does anyone actually still play Medical Dispersion Field? Everyone I know took Anti-Corrosion Plating. This trait has been nerfed so much now it's ridiculous that it actually still exists in WvW.

 

The Ugly

• Kinetic Battery buff is ok... the trait is still garbage. You need to blow 5 of your skills for a couple of seconds of superspeed and quickness? Hard pass, would rather take gadgeteer or improved endurance on pretty much any build.
• Why buff grenades? It's already the best performing power damage in PvP. Why not buff/rework Toolkit, or Bomb kit (rework not buff, because the numbers here are already pretty crazy), or Turrets? This decision just reeks of a lack of imagination, or knowledge of Engi's available skills.
• Kinetic Accelerators change is weird for PvP: when it came out Scrapper was pretty weak, but this change made Scrapper sort of playable. Now, removing quickness from it makes a below average build be more below average. Just sort of sad, really.

 

And that's the patch. Some good stuff and potential for new builds, but far too much misguided and unimaginative balancing made. Hopefully this stuff can get changed before it makes it to live.

Edited September 17, 2022 by ThrakathNar.4537

[HotDelirium.7984]

2 hours ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

 

You talk about "skill" but if I use your logic there is no skill in Herald pulsing out boons for simply existing. There is no skill in Tempest pressing 1 button and giving heal + aura + boons + cleansing. There is no skill in FB doing his FB thing. 

 

And yet none of these has been drastically changed.

I don't know how helpful taking an interpretation of my logic and plugging it into a completely different spec with different mechanics within this game's design philosophy. Skill is but one component in the grand scheme of things and I'm sure is one factor they consider with balance changes.

[Ecto Man.2589]

Scrpper gyro changes are so bad... probably the worst way they could balance them.

[Piogre.2164]

I know the big subject of discussion here is the scrapper changes, but I'm curious about the Reactive Lenses change.  The most useful part of that trait is the automatic stunbreak.  Now that it's tied to your heal skill, is the stun break going away, or does it turn your heal skill *into* a stunbreak?