For long, I've wondered why I didn't fully enjoy GW2's combat

[Kalthea.4326]

58 minutes ago, the krytan assassin.9235 said:

Lolol cant believe this OP. There are SO MANY instant cast abilities in this game. If you dont like your current build, just pick another one with more instant casts. 

Also having cast time on your skills adds weight to the impact of it. Reducing all skills to instant cast also is also in general terrible for any skill rotation. Try out playing scepter ele in air (all skills are instant cast) you'll quickly find out that you basically run out of skills to cast in 1 second. 

The apm in this game is also on the top end of any MMO game. There are already loads of people struggling to keep up with the pace. Instant skill casts, an increasing amount of skills on elite specs and  quickness+alac widely available play a huge part in this. 

If you really want more instant casts, try to play some condi untamed or cata in PvE. You'll quickly find out how much of a hassle those instant casts can be. 

I could understand it if you want more utility skills (and in general more utilities that are not part of your normal rotation etc) but that's an whole different subject. 

"If you dont like your current build, just pick another one with more instant casts."

 

This is a really, really bad way of thinking for a game that advertises itself as "play as you want". If the OP made a build that I assume is their favored way of playing and are still finding that they don't enjoy it, that points out a flaw in the builds and mechanics systems, at least for them. Acting like they need to conform to other ways of playing just to enjoy the game takes away from build diversity.

[the krytan assassin.9235]

2 hours ago, Kalthea.4326 said:

This is a really, really bad way of thinking for a game that advertises itself as "play as you want". If the OP made a build that I assume is their favored way of playing and are still finding that they don't enjoy it, that points out a flaw in the builds and mechanics systems, at least for them. Acting like they need to conform to other ways of playing just to enjoy the game takes away from build diversity.

Well, its basically how any gamedesign works. Every class has a specific identity. Without this everything feels bland. Some favor more fast paced, some more slow paced, melee/range, tanky/squishy, spellcaster/physical damage etc. If you specifically say that your style of combat feels bland due to a lack of instant casts you can either swap to another build that does have alot of instant casts or complain about a specific profession on the forums. You can't suddenly pretend that this "flaw" is spreaded all around the game when it clearly isn't.

[Kalthea.4326]

36 minutes ago, the krytan assassin.9235 said:

Well, its basically how any gamedesign works. Every class has a specific identity. Without this everything feels bland. Some favor more fast paced, some more slow paced, melee/range, tanky/squishy, spellcaster/physical damage etc. If you specifically say that your style of combat feels bland due to a lack of instant casts you can either swap to another build that does have alot of instant casts or complain about a specific profession on the forums. You can't suddenly pretend that this "flaw" is spreaded all around the game when it clearly isn't.

I was more getting at the implications of a game saying you can play your way (especially one that lacks defining roles other than "gives x boon"), and someone commenting that they should just change their build to have instant casts, when that just doesn't always work out. What if they don't want to play any other class? What if the class they're playing doesn't have utilities that perform the way they want them do? Don't get me wrong, I understand this game plenty well, and play every class and build, and yeah, it's good to have that knowledge and try to change things up for the better. However, that doesn't mean that I'm suddenly going to ignore a complaint about how a game feels, or support this concept that everyone needs to change to the game's whims when the forums are all about pointing out issues and having discussions.

 

Besides, one of the biggest complaints about Warriors is how slow their Autos are, how often they are rooted in place during attacks, and their end lag.

[Bunny.9834]

lolz. 

                  

[Cuks.8241]

4 hours ago, Kalthea.4326 said:

I was more getting at the implications of a game saying you can play your way (especially one that lacks defining roles other than "gives x boon"), and someone commenting that they should just change their build to have instant casts, when that just doesn't always work out. What if they don't want to play any other class? What if the class they're playing doesn't have utilities that perform the way they want them do? Don't get me wrong, I understand this game plenty well, and play every class and build, and yeah, it's good to have that knowledge and try to change things up for the better. However, that doesn't mean that I'm suddenly going to ignore a complaint about how a game feels, or support this concept that everyone needs to change to the game's whims when the forums are all about pointing out issues and having discussions.

 

Besides, one of the biggest complaints about Warriors is how slow their Autos are, how often they are rooted in place during attacks, and their end lag.

You still want some class identity. Its how it works in any game and how I think should be also in gw2. Having the ability to change build and/or weapon to change the play style is still available in gw2 and it gives way more freedom as most other games. 

Fast paced rogue like melee class with fast combos. Big hit long range nuker with long animations. Risky to cast but big reward if it hits... You remove that, well whats the point of classes.

But yeah if the author plays a great sword Warrior I can see why the game might feel clunky to him.  

[Kalthea.4326]

35 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

You still want some class identity. Its how it works in any game and how I think should be also in gw2. Having the ability to change build and/or weapon to change the play style is still available in gw2 and it gives way more freedom as most other games. 

Fast paced rogue like melee class with fast combos. Big hit long range nuker with long animations. Risky to cast but big reward if it hits... You remove that, well whats the point of classes.

But yeah if the author plays a great sword Warrior I can see why the game might feel clunky to him.  

Oh, don't get me wrong, I never said anything about removing class identity, just that it's silly to say someone's complaints are invalid because they're only playing this way in a game that says they can. I actually like a lot of the archetypes for the classes, and just want them to be more polished so they feel good to play.

[ASP.8093]

14 hours ago, Kalthea.4326 said:

"If you dont like your current build, just pick another one with more instant casts."

 

This is a really, really bad way of thinking for a game that advertises itself as "play as you want". If the OP made a build that I assume is their favored way of playing and are still finding that they don't enjoy it, that points out a flaw in the builds and mechanics systems, at least for them. Acting like they need to conform to other ways of playing just to enjoy the game takes away from build diversity.

Every time I check the forum, someone redefines "Play as you want" to mean something even more ridiculous than it did before. Today it's "if you picked something and didn't like it, you shouldn't just go pick a different thing you know you'll like more."

[AliamRationem.5172]

8 hours ago, Kalthea.4326 said:

Oh, don't get me wrong, I never said anything about removing class identity, just that it's silly to say someone's complaints are invalid because they're only playing this way in a game that says they can. I actually like a lot of the archetypes for the classes, and just want them to be more polished so they feel good to play.

The complaint is also very vague.  So, cast-times = sleep-inducing while instants = fun?  Really?  I could understand the complaint in a game that uses a GCD like FFXIV or WoW, but GW2 doesn't work that way.  WoW and FFXIV try to fill the GCD time with OGCD instant effects and procs, but that doesn't really fit with animation-based cast times with after cast.  The entire flow is about knowing how to time your attacks by feel so as not to cancel casts or waste valuable time between attacks.  There's no need to fill the gaps the way they do in games with a GCD.

It comes across like they don't understand the combat system very well.  But maybe I'm wrong?  Perhaps some specific examples of systems that utilize instant casts in a fun way but don't use a GCD?

Edited October 22, 2022 by AliamRationem.5172

[Ashen.2907]

16 hours ago, Kalthea.4326 said:

"If you dont like your current build, just pick another one with more instant casts."

 

This is a really, really bad way of thinking for a game that advertises itself as "play as you want". If the OP made a build that I assume is their favored way of playing and are still finding that they don't enjoy it, that points out a flaw in the builds and mechanics systems, at least for them. Acting like they need to conform to other ways of playing just to enjoy the game takes away from build diversity.

Play as you want was in reference to playing whatever content you like to level up. If they dont enjoy their current build then it is, by definition, not their favored way of playing. Suggesting that if one does not enjoy build X they might try build Y is in no way detracting from build diversity. Every single player in the game has preferences. Playing builds that match their preferences, and avoiding builds that do not suit them, is the ideal, not an aberration.

Edited October 22, 2022 by Ashen.2907

[ASP.8093]

If you're familiar with other MMOGs:

• "Don't break auto attack chains" is this game's version of "insta-cast things while on GCD"

• "Dodging" is this game's version of "ponderously walk in and out of the AOE circles like a turtle"

• "Everyone (except, occasionally, the tank) stacking together" is this game's version of "everyone but the tank stack together"

[eXruina.4956]

i've always enjoyed the combat, its the balance thats been 💩.

[captrowdy.9561]

Lol go play eso and come back to this game and tell me how it is. 

[otto.5684]

On 10/19/2022 at 4:13 PM, Aodlop.1907 said:

I get it now. It's the lack of instant cast abilities.

 

Nearly all spells in this game have a cast time, which makes everything somewhat delayed and a bit clunky. It's just not very smooth.

Are you telling me that abilities such as Necromancers' Locust swarm are so insanely good that they need a cast time?

 

Having more instant cast abilities, and abilities that are usable while casting, would go a long way in making the combat feel more dynamic and less sleep inducing.

I am unsure if you are serious or joking. Have you ever played any other MMO or ARPG? Nearly all action ARPG have animation time, and many of them if you interrupt the animation it would not go through. Most MMOs have global cool down (GCD), which is typically 1.5 seconds. Sure, your skill may go off instantly, but you have 1.5 secs to wait. GW2 system is far more interesting and rewarding. It is faster and creates counter play as it makes it possible to notice the animation and avoid the atk or interrupt the animation. If you prefer floaty GCD system or janxy animation cancel, no one if forcing you to play GW2.

[Obtena.7952]

I'm glad that the OP has distilled his dislike for GW2 combat to a subset of 'spells' that aren't insta-cast even if that seems a rather insignificant thing to hoist your flag on. Seems to me that's the kind of thing that would affect your decision to play it; it's not very realistic to think it's a platform to advocate change in the game though. 

I'm also certain insta-cast gameplay is a personal playstyle preference that has little to do with the overall quality of the PVP elements in this game. 

I mean, having played my share of PVP in many other MMOs ... insta casting in action-based games are very 1 dimensional and takes out quite a bit of the decision making you can do as a player. If that's the kind of play you like .. there are lots of games that do that ... choose how you spend your game time wisely. 

Edited October 24, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Serephen.3420]

On 10/22/2022 at 10:19 AM, Kalthea.4326 said:

"If you dont like your current build, just pick another one with more instant casts."

 

This is a really, really bad way of thinking for a game that advertises itself as "play as you want". If the OP made a build that I assume is their favored way of playing and are still finding that they don't enjoy it, that points out a flaw in the builds and mechanics systems, at least for them. Acting like they need to conform to other ways of playing just to enjoy the game takes away from build diversity.

That is taking it way too literally...it's more like a flaw in the way the op thinks and shows a lack of diversity and flexibility in their own thinking. 

Play how you want, in a realistic sense is saying there are many different options and things to do, that there is likely something for everyone or at least most people. 

 

The reason we can freely change around builds is exactly so we can find something that suits us/works for us. 

[Svarty.8019]

On 10/19/2022 at 9:13 PM, Aodlop.1907 said:

I get it now. It's the lack of instant cast abilities.

 

Nearly all spells in this game have a cast time, which makes everything somewhat delayed and a bit clunky. It's just not very smooth.

It's undeniable that there are problems with GW2 combat. Now that we've got a proliferation of CC gankers in the game, cast times are very noticeable, especially on heals and "oh kitten!" abilities.

 

I don't think the problem is cast times, I think it's CC.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Svarty.8019

[Kalthea.4326]

On 10/22/2022 at 11:36 AM, ASP.8093 said:

Every time I check the forum, someone redefines "Play as you want" to mean something even more ridiculous than it did before. Today it's "if you picked something and didn't like it, you shouldn't just go pick a different thing you know you'll like more."

I see you didn't read the part of the discussion where I assumed that the OP had tried everything out on their class and this was where they landed as their most-liked.

 

On 10/22/2022 at 1:40 PM, AliamRationem.5172 said:

The complaint is also very vague.  So, cast-times = sleep-inducing while instants = fun?  Really?  I could understand the complaint in a game that uses a GCD like FFXIV or WoW, but GW2 doesn't work that way.  WoW and FFXIV try to fill the GCD time with OGCD instant effects and procs, but that doesn't really fit with animation-based cast times with after cast.  The entire flow is about knowing how to time your attacks by feel so as not to cancel casts or waste valuable time between attacks.  There's no need to fill the gaps the way they do in games with a GCD.

It comes across like they don't understand the combat system very well.  But maybe I'm wrong?  Perhaps some specific examples of systems that utilize instant casts in a fun way but don't use a GCD?

Ignoring weaving in Elder Scrolls Online, every ability on there is instant-cast (or some minor cast-time), and utilizes a resource system based upon which skills you've used. This allows players to cast attacks one after another as they see fit, utilizing up to 10 normal abilities and 2 ultimates (though often distilled down to a handfull of DoTs, one spam ability, and several buffs). I think that's the closest example to an instant-cast system that I can think that feels good to use. Again, ignoring weaving.

On 10/22/2022 at 2:11 PM, Ashen.2907 said:

Play as you want was in reference to playing whatever content you like to level up. If they dont enjoy their current build then it is, by definition, not their favored way of playing. Suggesting that if one does not enjoy build X they might try build Y is in no way detracting from build diversity. Every single player in the game has preferences. Playing builds that match their preferences, and avoiding builds that do not suit them, is the ideal, not an aberration.

 

17 hours ago, Serephen.3420 said:

That is taking it way too literally...it's more like a flaw in the way the op thinks and shows a lack of diversity and flexibility in their own thinking. 

Play how you want, in a realistic sense is saying there are many different options and things to do, that there is likely something for everyone or at least most people. 

 

The reason we can freely change around builds is exactly so we can find something that suits us/works for us. 

Again, if you didn't read it, I had stated that it was my assumption that the build the OP was playing was what they landed on as their favorite.

 

Let me be clear on this. I'm not discouraging people from trying new things, or trying to get better, and I'm not saying it's not the OPs fault. I'm saying when a game advertises itself in one way, and the opposite holds true, then that's a problem. I'm also saying that pointing and laughing at someone because they ended up not liking things (again assuming this was their favorite build they landed on) and then saying to switch to a build with more instant casts in a game where we all know that doesn't work because not every class has useful utility skills is silly. Do I think OP should look into other builds? Absolutely, variety is the spice of life and all that, and having knowledge of all of your abilities and other classes abilities can only be beneficial in a game like this. But that doesn't mean that OP not liking how things feel (there's that key word again!) on the class that they landed on isn't an invalid argument. You see it all over the forums, people complaining about too long cast times, ending animations, cast times that shouldn't be there, etc.

[Zyreva.1078]

7 hours ago, Kalthea.4326 said:

Ignoring weaving in Elder Scrolls Online, every ability on there is instant-cast (or some minor cast-time)

... and on a global CD. The only thing that makes ESO's combat fast paced are off gcd actions such as light and heavy attacks that can be woven inbetween (which seems to be the part you dislike?). But without those the combat would be fairly slow and boring, despite the instant cast abilities. And even with weaving i'd rather describe it as "spammy" than truly fast paced, because your actions per second are still very limited.

I still enjoyed ESO combat but definitely prefer the GW2 system.

 

[Kalthea.4326]

4 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

... and on a global CD. The only thing that makes ESO's combat fast paced are off gcd actions such as light and heavy attacks that can be woven inbetween (which seems to be the part you dislike?). But without those the combat would be fairly slow and boring, despite the instant cast abilities. And even with weaving i'd rather describe it as "spammy" than truly fast paced, because your actions per second are still very limited.

I still enjoyed ESO combat but definitely prefer the GW2 system.

 

Oh, I don't dislike weaving, I was just saying to disregard it for the example. The only real thing getting in your way with abilities in ESO is the animations for a couple of 'em, but even then, they're fairly snappy and quick. Impaling Shards is the only one I really notice that takes too much time (seems to get a bit 'stuck' sometimes), and the long-cast time on things like Channeled Acceleration, but other than that most abilities you just pop and continue on without issue. Heck, you can spam pretty much everything as long as you have a resource, so I dunno what you mean by a GCD with ESO.

 

And yeah, GW2's system is more fluid, but I prefer the snappy response of the autos in ESO. Everything else? For sure GW2, no contest.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Kalthea.4326

[Sahne.6950]

On 10/19/2022 at 10:13 PM, Aodlop.1907 said:

I get it now. It's the lack of instant cast abilities.

 

Nearly all spells in this game have a cast time, which makes everything somewhat delayed and a bit clunky. It's just not very smooth.

Are you telling me that abilities such as Necromancers' Locust swarm are so insanely good that they need a cast time?

 

Having more instant cast abilities, and abilities that are usable while casting, would go a long way in making the combat feel more dynamic and less sleep inducing.

your playing the wrong profession m8.

[Nash.2681]

My only gripe with GW2 combat is the amount of skill lag at times and how skill cancelation works. Imo a skill that already got activated should only be canceled by either ESC or weapon stow, but not by activating the next skill 0,001 seconds too early.

For clarification: I don't advocate for endless skill queuing (which would somehow invalidate rotations/emphazise the use of illegal macros) ; being able to queue up the next skill would be ok I think, but not neccessary if accidental skill canceling would be gone.

[Axelteas.7192]

For those who disagree with the OP, please make the effort to visualize a elementalist with a offhand dagger casting earth number 5. Then have the balls to disagree.

[Zyreva.1078]

6 hours ago, Kalthea.4326 said:

[...]so I dunno what you mean by a GCD with ESO.

You can't cast more than one skill per second (technically the gcd is ~ 0.9s if i remember correctly, but in practise it results in roughly one skill per second). If there was no gcd - like in GW2 - you'd be able to use all those instant abilities at the same time, more than once - i don't think i have to explain why that would be a problem.

1 hour ago, Axelteas.7192 said:

For those who disagree with the OP, please make the effort to visualize a elementalist with a offhand dagger casting earth number 5. Then have the balls to disagree.

Now imagine instant churning earth and tell me it would be a better idea ...

Edited October 25, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Kalthea.4326]

1 hour ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

You can't cast more than one skill per second (technically the gcd is ~ 0.9s if i remember correctly, but in practise it results in roughly one skill per second). If there was no gcd - like in GW2 - you'd be able to use all those instant abilities at the same time, more than once - i don't think i have to explain why that would be a problem.

Now imagine instant churning earth and tell me it would be a better idea ...

I guess you could technically call that a GCD, but it's just animation lockout. For all intents and purposes, everything is instant-cast except for channeled spells. But even so, the point was to offer up another system that uses instant-casts and how you would balance them, which in the case of ESO would be its resources, and in GW2 it's the cooldowns.

 

What we really need is an animation pass in GW2 to remove just a bit of the clunk.

[LuRkEr.9462]

Its like having a global cooldown without having a global cooldown. Classes to have instant casts as well to weave in but if you look at other MMOs they all have a limiter to your casting.