Dragon's Tooth is a problem

[Terrorhuz.4695]

12 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

FYI 900 range is the second highest tier of ranged attacks, the distances being 600 | 900 | 1200

LB ranger would have a word with you.

Archemorous would, too, but you can't see him from that distance.

[Waffles.5632]

Arch is 1200 now, used to be 1500.

Ranger has always been 1500 as the exception not the rule, reinforced by them nerfing DE back to 1200 most recently.

 

 

[Terrorhuz.4695]

1 hour ago, Waffles.5632 said:

Arch is 1200 now, used to be 1500

Used to be 2k. Still mad at the change, should have doubled down on the design and added a pull for the chaos.

[Waffles.5632]

@Terrorhuz.4695 Yeah you're right it did use to be 2k my b.

I wish they doubled down on that too, along with one dodge vindi.

 

 

[solemn.9670]

So..we just not going to talk about rev sword 3?

Or any other broken skill or entire specialization in the game?

It is so hilarious to me as an ele with over 7000 hrs that you all break down and cry over a little buff to a weapon for the first time in like 5 years, while for the most part your main classes are regularly tuned to be better. Hint: it's not bc ele was always op, it's bc a good ele beats a mediocre player and a mediocre player beats a mediocre ele.

What you can do with 1000 hours on any other class will take you 3x as many on ele. Oh no, ele got a new toy to play with, better cry that it's op instead of just dodging the easiest skill in the world to dodge.

Inb4 confused/cry reacts, cope and seethe

[Sigmoid.7082]

17 minutes ago, solemn.9670 said:

Inb4 confused/cry reacts, cope and seethe

I wouldn't really say it cry, cope , or seethe. If you watch the balance live stream where they are going through this change Cal already states that they he finds the change scary, that they will likely lower the damage at some point and are just waiting to see how the change, along with the other sceptre changes, impact competitive in their entirety. 

 

Its introduction with prefaced with , paraphrasing, "its likely quite / too strong and we will likely nerf it". I would say the "cope" is likely on the side of those who are clamouring to keep something out of balance. 

[lotus.5672]

1 hour ago, solemn.9670 said:

So..we just not going to talk about rev sword 3?

Or any other broken skill or entire specialization in the game?

It is so hilarious to me as an ele with over 7000 hrs that you all break down and cry over a little buff to a weapon for the first time in like 5 years, while for the most part your main classes are regularly tuned to be better. Hint: it's not bc ele was always op, it's bc a good ele beats a mediocre player and a mediocre player beats a mediocre ele.

What you can do with 1000 hours on any other class will take you 3x as many on ele. Oh no, ele got a new toy to play with, better cry that it's op instead of just dodging the easiest skill in the world to dodge.

Inb4 confused/cry reacts, cope and seethe

Please explain whats wrong with rev sword3 and how it compares to dragons tooth 🙃

[Xaint.7461]

nerf the damage output and make it a ground aoe again, and if not damage nerf then atleast put a higher cd on it. it is really busted atm and i do not understand who though it be a great game design idea to have dragon's tooth follow ur target no matter if they LoS or out of range it and it still hits .. 

[Kodama.6453]

13 hours ago, solemn.9670 said:

So..we just not going to talk about rev sword 3?

Or any other broken skill or entire specialization in the game?

It is so hilarious to me as an ele with over 7000 hrs that you all break down and cry over a little buff to a weapon for the first time in like 5 years, while for the most part your main classes are regularly tuned to be better. Hint: it's not bc ele was always op, it's bc a good ele beats a mediocre player and a mediocre player beats a mediocre ele.

What you can do with 1000 hours on any other class will take you 3x as many on ele. Oh no, ele got a new toy to play with, better cry that it's op instead of just dodging the easiest skill in the world to dodge.

Inb4 confused/cry reacts, cope and seethe

Scepter was overbuffed, simple as that.

Anet forgot to reduce the damage of dragon's tooth when making it track the target. A 2,0 power coefficient is basically the highest power coefficient any skill gets in PvP and it was justified for dragon's tooth before, because it was hard to hit since it is telegraphed and delayed, allowing enemies to sidestep it without having to burn defensive cooldowns.

But now, with it tracking, the only way to avoid it is either dodging or blowing a defensive cooldown. Which is a problem considering that it has a 6,5 seconds cooldown. Using a defensive mechanic on this skill every 7 seconds is not really realistic in a fight.

Making it track the target just made it way easier to hit this skill. The damage is no longer justified, if they want to keep that mechanic for dragon's tooth, then they have to nerf the damage.

[Hederrain.9207]

15 hours ago, solemn.9670 said:

It is so hilarious to me as an ele with over 7000 hrs that you all break down and cry over a little buff to a weapon for the first time in like 5 years

Sure, no range limit following you everywhere time-ticking-bomb, that explode up to ~11k , is fine, its just everyone are crybabies.

Reminds me scepter 3 on mesmer with a 3s cast time, it was buffed once and then it was nerfed so hard (much harder than it was prebuff) that it does around 4k if all 7 hits crits with zerk.

15 hours ago, solemn.9670 said:

What you can do with 1000 hours on any other class will take you 3x as many on ele.

It too me 2-3 days to play cata without any prior experience to beat some ele mains with plat badges...

But keep an illusion as if ele players are 3 times more skilled than any other player, if that helps you cope.

Edited December 30, 2022 by Hederrain.9207

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

2 hours ago, Hederrain.9207 said:

Sure, no range limit following you everywhere time-ticking-bomb, that explode up to ~11k , is fine, its just everyone are crybabies.

Reminds me scepter 3 on mesmer with a 3s cast time, it was buffed once and then it was nerfed so hard (much harder than it was prebuff) that it does around 4k if all 7 hits crits with zerk.

It too me 2-3 days to play cata without any prior experience to beat some ele mains with plat badges...

But keep an illusion as if ele players are 3 times more skilled than any other player, if that helps you cope.

What was that famous tip to deal with anything in this game? Oh right, "just dodge". You just need to dodge it, that's what people usually write when dealing with busted mechanic, but in this case, it's not busted as others. It is strong, but not nearly as others available on the market currently.
Another thing, Catalyst as a spec is clunky af to use and that's reality, it's only strong because of numbers on skills and traits, beside that it's very bad spec. 
Gratz to you for picking a spec that is pretty much a tiny bit harder to use than Harbinger or Mechanist and be succesful with it, try doing that with Core Ele.
 

[Terrorhuz.4695]

10 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

What was that famous tip to deal with anything in this game? Oh right, "just dodge".

Yeah, but I have two dodges on 10s cd each, and ele has a must-dodge on phoenix and dragon tooth and water trident and hurl, all on a 8-ish seconds cooldown so yeah, the things I'm supposed to dodge are more than my dodges.

But none of this would be nearly as problematic if I wasn't blinded ALL. THE kittenING. TIME.

I don't necessarily have problems with damage, things need to die in this game and damage is a good way to do that. But what's the deal with all that ranged blind?!? 

[CutesySylveon.8290]

19 hours ago, solemn.9670 said:

So..we just not going to talk about blah blah blah don'tnerf myezmodestuffthatinflatesmyego.I'mgoodplayerHurrrr.

This is all I heard from that little rant. 'Buff my class and nerf everything else' is all you're operating on.

Only one on the copium is you.

[Grimjack.8130]

3 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Yeah, but I have two dodges on 10s cd each, and ele has a must-dodge on phoenix and dragon tooth and water trident and hurl, all on a 8-ish seconds cooldown so yeah, the things I'm supposed to dodge are more than my dodges.

*confused ele noises* does no other class have more than 3 relevant skills to dodge all of a sudden? @_@ 

also this isnt even a problem, this regardless of the class its put on, is an intention design choice to you know, have things die and not live forever cause thats unfun

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

4 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Yeah, but I have two dodges on 10s cd each, and ele has a must-dodge on phoenix and dragon tooth and water trident and hurl, all on a 8-ish seconds cooldown so yeah, the things I'm supposed to dodge are more than my dodges.

Huh? Wait, but "just dodge" should just work? What's the problem? Ele had to deal with that bs for like 10 years and all we had to do was "dodge", we could do that, you can also.

4 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

But none of this would be nearly as problematic if I wasn't blinded ALL. THE kittenING. TIME.

I don't necessarily have problems with damage, things need to die in this game and damage is a good way to do that. But what's the deal with all that ranged blind?!? 

You never played against teefs? Like never? Teefs spam blind on left and right 24/7 from 900+ range, Ele is such watered down version with blinds...
It really feels like you guys never played this game at all.

[Zex Anthon.8673]

2 hours ago, Grimjack.8130 said:

*confused ele noises* does no other class have more than 3 relevant skills to dodge all of a sudden? @_@ 

also this isnt even a problem, this regardless of the class its put on, is an intention design choice to you know, have things die and not live forever cause thats unfun

Yea other classes have relevant skills to dodge. The difference is ele can activate these abilities every 6 seconds.

[Grimjack.8130]

30 minutes ago, Zex Anthon.8673 said:

Yea other classes have relevant skills to dodge. The difference is ele can activate these abilities every 6 seconds.

even with the current implementation of dragons tooth, you do not just camp fire to spam out dragons tooths even with the fire cd reduction trait which most scepter builds dont have btw, and something that somehow every forum user has missed, if you use a dragons tooth and then swap out of fire, its recharge is artificially not 6 seconds anymore or even 8, its now gated by your fire attunements recharge.

and every class can activate their abilities that often... holy cope

[Zex Anthon.8673]

27 minutes ago, Grimjack.8130 said:

even with the current implementation of dragons tooth, you do not just camp fire to spam out dragons tooths even with the fire cd reduction trait which most scepter builds dont have btw, and something that somehow every forum user has missed, if you use a dragons tooth and then swap out of fire, its recharge is artificially not 6 seconds anymore or even 8, its now gated by your fire attunements recharge.

and every class can activate their abilities that often... holy cope

Other classes don't have a fire and forget skill with no other counterplay than to dodge or burn a defensive cd. Other skills can be LoS or interrupted. You're the one on copium since people are finally realizing how busted ele is. No class should be able to consistently win 1v3s. 

[Grimjack.8130]

16 minutes ago, Zex Anthon.8673 said:

Other classes don't have a fire and forget skill with no other counterplay than to dodge or burn a defensive cd. 

literally any skill that does 4k+ crits is exactly that, do you just not dodge skills that hit hard?

[Waffles.5632]

1 hour ago, Grimjack.8130 said:

even with the current implementation of dragons tooth, you do not just camp fire to spam out dragons tooths even with the fire cd reduction trait which most scepter builds dont have btw, and something that somehow every forum user has missed, if you use a dragons tooth and then swap out of fire, its recharge is artificially not 6 seconds anymore or even 8, its now gated by your fire attunements recharge.

and every class can activate their abilities that often... holy cope

It's not about 1v1 ele tho, it's compounding.

You have to dodge dragontooth, you have to dodge spellbreaker hammer, oh wait d-tooth is back up again dodge that, wait hammer sbp burst is up again, wait full counter is up again (you actually can wait on this thankfully but omg ur silver tier teammate just hit the spellbreaker nnghhhh) BUT WAIT, enter willbender from across the map dodge that, WAIT, enter revenant alongside willbender (they both get pretty much the same teleports now) wait d-tooth is back up agai--....

 

How many dodges do we have again?

So many classes are bloated right now, there are literally not enough dodges anymore to effectively time all the high damaging abilities. I remember pre-EoD. I have videos so I know it's not just my bias.

Combat was slower, time to kill was longer, damage was lower. Before EoD you only had to worry about rev chasing you down, or like rev/thief. Now it can be rev/wb and it's compounding with every class.

Before EoD it was just ranger, now it's ranger AND mecha. The list goes on.

 

The AOE's are out of control too. Entire points can now be eclipsed by AOE's that last in durations of ~10 secs, even longer if chained appropriately between players (like a duo queue). Some of these aoes block projectiles, some are condi, some inflict blind, some even follow you around now. The game was already visually intensive before EoD, and now it's blown past 10 and is on 20 as far as visual noise goes. IMO.

 

All this to say though, I forget if it was said here or elsewhere, but a good change that won't impact anything numbers wise, is to have the red AOE circle fill up when D-tooth is preparing to drop, that way it's a clearer indicator of the timing. Right now you have to basically look at the tooth in the air and more or less guess/feel the timing out. A good and updated visual indicator would do wonders for people's frustration, IMO.

If I were in charge of making changes, that's what I would do. Lower damage slightly, around ~10%, update the visual indicator, and then wait and see how those changes play out to decide on range/AOE size. If it's still too problematic, then can lower AOE size, or make range 600.

I am not in charge though so I must simply learn how to dodge better for the time being. 🥲

 

Edit: Hot take alternative - give every class 3 dodges now in spvp 😂

 

 

 

Edited December 30, 2022 by Waffles.5632

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

Back to the OP:

I really don't understand why they didn't just keep the original Dragons tooth but made it drop faster. Of course it's never gonna hit anything if it hangs there for like 3s...why not make it 1 or 1.5s? Then you still have time to dodge or get out of the way but it is relatively fast enough to hit someone who has been CCd or someone who is in the middle of a teamfight and might miss the cast in all the visual clutter. If nothing else, it forces enemies to either flee or use a defensive CD, so it's still plenty valuable in many situations 

[Zex Anthon.8673]

6 minutes ago, Grimjack.8130 said:

literally any skill that does 4k+ crits is exactly that, do you just not dodge skills that hit hard?

Care to provide examples? I'll do it for you.

• Trueshot: same cast time, same cooldown - can be LoS, is a projectile
• Ghastly Claws: Same cooldown - can be LoS, has long cast time that can be interrupted
• Rapid Fire: More damage but longer cooldown - can be LoS, has a long cast time that can be interrupted, is a projectile
• Hundred Blades: Same cooldown more damage- is melee range, requires warrior to plant themselves, long cast time that can be interrupted
• Blurred Frenzy: Longer cooldown less damage but evades - is melee range, requires mesmer to plant themselves
• Blunderbuss: Same cooldown less damage - required to be up close to do maximum damage, can be LoS

Notice a pattern? Other skills in the same class as Dragon's Tooth have meaningful tradeoffs. 

[Grimjack.8130]

1 hour ago, Zex Anthon.8673 said:

Care to provide examples? I'll do it for you.

• Trueshot: same cast time, same cooldown - can be LoS, is a projectile
• Ghastly Claws: Same cooldown - can be LoS, has long cast time that can be interrupted
• Rapid Fire: More damage but longer cooldown - can be LoS, has a long cast time that can be interrupted, is a projectile
• Hundred Blades: Same cooldown more damage- is melee range, requires warrior to plant themselves, long cast time that can be interrupted
• Blurred Frenzy: Longer cooldown less damage but evades - is melee range, requires mesmer to plant themselves
• Blunderbuss: Same cooldown less damage - required to be up close to do maximum damage, can be LoS

Notice a pattern? Other skills in the same class as Dragon's Tooth have meaningful tradeoffs. 

bro reapers auto attacks can hit up to 5k each, the game has infinitely more damage than sustain and thats a good thing

[Zex Anthon.8673]

31 minutes ago, Grimjack.8130 said:

bro reapers auto attacks can hit up to 5k each, the game has infinitely more damage than sustain and thats a good thing

With berserkers amulet and unrealistic glass traits I can hit a max of 4K crit on the final hit of the auto chain on light golem. Average is going to be closer to 3K.

This is besides the point. You're comparing a slow melee ranged class whose biggest damage is locked behind a resource that is countered by high dps, cc, and mobility, to a class that is practically immune to projectiles, easy access to stability and has probably the best sustain in the game. If you are being honest, you on elementalist have no problems fighting reaper.

I agree that having more damage than sustain is a good thing, but that damage should not come for free. You even say this as one of the classes most guilty of perpetuating the bunker meta.

[pukish.5784]

Imo Dragon's Tooth is the most degen skill 2022.You can dodge but still 4sec burning hurts, tracking insanely, low cd high damage aoe non reflectable. Idk why elementalist have so many degen skills atm. Earth Shield,Dragon's Tooth, Glyph Rez, minion master thing, Stone Heart, and Water hammer4 LMAO.

Edited December 31, 2022 by pukish.5784