Why can you still play 3 man premade in 3v3 ranked?

[Zombiesbum.3502]

On 2/17/2023 at 10:46 AM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

People out here are dead set on making the game less "play with your friends" centric in the name of competitive integrity, like the gamestate they're chasing won't immediately be put out of their reach by wintraders on discord the moment they try to force both sides to be random. 

Fine, nobody gets to premake.

Two people q at the same time and have an agreement that if they are split, X throws the game. They don't tell anyone they're doing this.

Congrats, the game mode is now worse. The people who cant play with their friends leave, making it easier for the group above to do what they're doing. 

It's Team Deathmatch.

Team.

Find two people. That's how it's supposed to work. It's not an advantage you should be averse to using. 

You are talking about win trading, of which is not relevant to the topic at hand. You know you can always play unranked if you want to play with friends. I really find it odd how people can defend trio queuing in a mode that primarily has solo players in it.

Edited February 20, 2023 by Zombiesbum.3502

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Why isn't it relevant to the topic at hand? Removing people's ability to control their teammates opens every team to being used as a vehicle for wintrading. 

 

Quote

 You know you can always play unranked if you want to play with friends. I really find it odd how people can defend trio queuing in a mode that primarily has solo players in it.

Unranked has primarily solo players in it too, what's your point?

I dont understand how people can want to play a ranked match organized around group play but also insist every team must be random, when the teams are just small enough that two people can destroy the whole experience if it behaved as such.

It would be monumentally easier for you to find two people you tolerate than ask for architectural change that would make the game worse for everyone, including you. Like I said before: the moment you get solo play mandatory in a 3v3, two people on discord will either:

>get a 2 man premade because the matchmaker will put them together

>get put in a position to throw on your team because the matchmaker split them.

So you either -continue- to get premade matches to fight at best, or get actively sabo'd at worst. 

Edited February 20, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Dreams.3128]

Update: Eight losses in a row and it has been legit

Reaper
Core NEcro
Support Guard
Tempest
Scrapper

This is in g2-g3 and even up to p1. Across the board in every other match with throwers. This game is actually broken and I see why people stop giving a kitten.

[Bunbury.8472]

On 2/18/2023 at 6:59 AM, Kako.1930 said:

It would be nice for matchmaking and team balance if they would separate pugs from premades (solos from full teams), but the pvp population just isn't big enough for that, unfortunately.

For each of the players in here saying they want required premades only and berating anyone who disagrees, there are several more silent players who would just not play at all if that were the case. Then the same people here would be crying even more about how pvp is dead, queue times are so long, and they're always put against the same team every match. 

"Careful what you wish for." 

 

PvP pop was a lot larger and more healthy back when we had mixed queue. now it's just solo duo and the pop is so bad it can't even make full plat games.

 

perhaps removing the ability to play with your friends may have had an impact, in participation and in recommending the gamemode. I mean, it's a hard sell to say 'download this game we can't play together' lol.

 

I mean hey, maybe all of the pop drop is due to bad balance etc, but it's not like the patching or meta was even that good then. sad to say we are in one of the best patch cadences the game has ever had. this is not the worst meta either, and honestly before cata the meta was pretty nice.

 

I mean, maybe it's nothing and there is no connection between removing mixed and the population drop- but I still think about WvW. it's the other PvP mode the game has, and let's be real has been more neglected for both content and balance than even PvP. however it's still the second most played gamemode, the only thing that beats it in player numbers is open world PvE. so I look at two PvP modes, both hellishly neglected, and one let's you play with a single person and is dead with no community, and the other let's you play with 50+ friends at once and has tons of players and a big community. idk man, just a theory XP

Edited February 21, 2023 by Bunbury.8472

[Ferus.3165]

7 hours ago, Bunbury.8472 said:

PvP pop was a lot larger and more healthy back when we had mixed queue. now it's just solo duo and the pop is so bad it can't even make full plat games.

 

perhaps removing the ability to play with your friends may have had an impact, in participation and in recommending the gamemode. I mean, it's a hard sell to say 'download this game we can't play together' lol.

 

I mean hey, maybe all of the pop drop is due to bad balance etc, but it's not like the patching or meta was even that good then. sad to say we are in one of the best patch cadences the game has ever had. this is not the worst meta either, and honestly before cata the meta was pretty nice.

 

I mean, maybe it's nothing and there is no connection between removing mixed and the population drop- but I still think about WvW. it's the other PvP mode the game has, and let's be real has been more neglected for both content and balance than even PvP. however it's still the second most played gamemode, the only thing that beats it in player numbers is open world PvE. so I look at two PvP modes, both hellishly neglected, and one let's you play with a single person and is dead with no community, and the other let's you play with 50+ friends at once and has tons of players and a big community. idk man, just a theory XP

yeah the reason that pvp is almost dead is because you cannot q with a 5 man premade team against 5 solo players... what nonsense

This has nothing to do with abusing 5 solo players with 5 man premade team. Getting rid of 5 man premades was one of anets best decisions.

[Sansar.1302]

All pvp matches except tournaments should be solo q only

[Sahne.6950]

There need to be 2 permanent Q´s, with their own rating, badges, and titles.

Solo Q - 5man Q

Change my mind.

Edited February 21, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Zombiesbum.3502]

18 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Why isn't it relevant to the topic at hand? Removing people's ability to control their teammates opens every team to being used as a vehicle for wintrading. 

 

Unranked has primarily solo players in it too, what's your point?

I dont understand how people can want to play a ranked match organized around group play but also insist every team must be random, when the teams are just small enough that two people can destroy the whole experience if it behaved as such.

It would be monumentally easier for you to find two people you tolerate than ask for architectural change that would make the game worse for everyone, including you. Like I said before: the moment you get solo play mandatory in a 3v3, two people on discord will either:

>get a 2 man premade because the matchmaker will put them together

>get put in a position to throw on your team because the matchmaker split them.

So you either -continue- to get premade matches to fight at best, or get actively sabo'd at worst. 

I don't understand how you can't see that there is already a mode for premade teams. Yet you seem determined to explain how every game mode with a team should be premades only. That's how you come across.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Seconding opinion that premade should be tournament only.  

Even at current for 5v5, duos can be a good or bad thing, they don't always mean a win.  It is entirely possible you get matched with a terribad duo and lose everytime because you are missing a slot for a competent player.  

[Bunbury.8472]

8 hours ago, Ferus.3165 said:

yeah the reason that pvp is almost dead is because you cannot q with a 5 man premade team against 5 solo players... what nonsense

This has nothing to do with abusing 5 solo players with 5 man premade team. Getting rid of 5 man premades was one of anets best decisions.

if it was such a good move, why has the population been constantly falling? if the PvP mode is even better now, why do less people play?

 

I mean, WvW is even worse. you can abuse solo players with a 50 man premade there and it's the second most popular mode. no sign of it dying kekw

[Ferus.3165]

14 hours ago, Bunbury.8472 said:

if it was such a good move, why has the population been constantly falling? if the PvP mode is even better now, why do less people play?

 

I mean, WvW is even worse. you can abuse solo players with a 50 man premade there and it's the second most popular mode. no sign of it dying kekw

there are many reasons for that. The number one reason is probably bad balance. In a controlled 5v5 environment balance matters alot more than in wvw where player numbers in each encounter vary extremely so even the most op classes don't make that much of a difference.

How long was catalyst allowed to run rampant without any nerfs? It took months for anet to do something about that.

Since HoT the game has become a lot faster because many skills don't have weighty cooldowns or there are too many of them and/or they simply do to much at once. This makes it quite a bit harder for new players to learn how to play. But it's not just the spammy nature of the game since the introduction of elite specs into pvp but also the lack of proper and readable animations.

The hordes of bots that were running around in pvp for literal years.. the cheaters that go unbanned even after months and one of the most important things: The complete lack of anything new. Not even bugfixes... the stupid spellbreaker bug with the permanent fullcounter animation still exists.

And the downward spiral of pvp is self propelling:

fewer people are playing --> matchmaking is getting worse --> fewer people are playing --> etc.

[Vancho.8750]

16 hours ago, Bunbury.8472 said:

if it was such a good move, why has the population been constantly falling? if the PvP mode is even better now, why do less people play?

 

I mean, WvW is even worse. you can abuse solo players with a 50 man premade there and it's the second most popular mode. no sign of it dying kekw

The reason is that the casuals are not having fun and don't play it. It all boils down to that. The balance is based on tournaments so not casuals, the matchmaker is based on top end so no casuals, the duo is for leader board people so again no casuals.
Allot of development in pvp(which isn't that much anyway) focused on the top end gizmos, tournaments and titles but nothing was added for your happy go lucky random person just pressing the queue button to have fun. And here we are.
Ou and if you say but "teams" will help, nope, 90% of the population(well at least when there was population) solo queued when 5 man was a thing. That focus on the 10% didn't even keep them and lost most of the 90%.  

[Gibson.4036]

19 hours ago, Bunbury.8472 said:

 

 

I mean, WvW is even worse. you can abuse solo players with a 50 man premade there and it's the second most popular mode. no sign of it dying kekw

A lot of WvWers might disagree with you.

[Saiyan.1704]

On 2/17/2023 at 11:59 AM, Kako.1930 said:

It would be nice for matchmaking and team balance if they would separate pugs from premades (solos from full teams), but the pvp population just isn't big enough for that, unfortunately.

For each of the players in here saying they want required premades only and berating anyone who disagrees, there are several more silent players who would just not play at all if that were the case. Then the same people here would be crying even more about how pvp is dead, queue times are so long, and they're always put against the same team every match. 

"Careful what you wish for." 

 

Queue times would be quicker for 2v2 & 3v3 gamemodes because matchmaking pulls less players. Match quality would improve drastically IF this was soloQ only... this would be true for Conquest as well.

The problem this game continues to have is premades; people are dodging premades, leading to solo/duo to go up against top25, resulting in more blowout games.

Generally the Leaderboards top 3 or top 5 players don't really have much for competition. Incorporating AT fixed the 5's premade toxicity issue but there's still the issue with premade dodges & player rotation boosting in ranked duoQ conquest and the miniseason..... so why not just have 2v2/3v3 AT's for the miniseason, while also making 5v5 Ranked soloQ only?

5's AT every 2hrs

2's/3's AT every 30minutes during the mini-season.

5v5 Ranked SoloQ only | Miniseason gamemodes Ranked soloQ | Unranked 5's remains the same.

Edit: There will still be rating/match manipulation but top players attempting to queue sync, with multiple accounts, would be more difficult if ALL Ranked enabled gamemodes were soloQ.

Edited February 22, 2023 by Saiyan.1704

[jdawgie.1835]

On 2/20/2023 at 6:17 AM, Zombiesbum.3502 said:

Except that 90% of players play as solo, so your logic is invalid when we look at reality over your ideals.

If 90% of the player base is solo why are you on the forums every mini seasons upset? By your logic 90% of your games should play out how you like them to. 

Quote

You know you can always play unranked if you want to play with friends

No my G. YOU can go play unranked. Ranked is for teams, really the entire mode is for  teams, the way you desire to play this game is from the hotjoin style of play. Which we used to have prior to eliminating 5 man ques when we had entire spvp only guilds doing all of the training and welcoming of new players. 

Quote

I really find it odd how people can defend trio queuing in a mode that primarily has solo players in it.

Its not odd. Arenas are not for solo players. Arenas are for team based play. It odd you dont understand what arenas in this game or any other game were created for in a massive multiplayer online setting. 

Edited February 23, 2023 by jdawgie.1835

[Qtin.6940]

"Arenas are not for solo players"

while premades actively dodge each others just to get free wins against randoms

[jdawgie.1835]

20 minutes ago, Qtin.6940 said:

while premades actively dodge each others just to get free wins against randoms

Right. I don't agree with that kind of nonsensical behavior either. The top teams refusing competition with each other has more to do with the integrity of this community than anything else. Thus why Trevor tried his 1v1 community based ladder. Some players have done more for this game to produce healthy engagement than the devs. 

 

That has nothing to do with the what the game mode was designed to do though. 

 

Also - my approach to this was to get a team. For me it was two guys from my Guild. Sinless Dictators and only play the mini seasons where we have full control over who we play with. This way if we loose, we lost on our own to a better team. The outcome was really cool too, because in season 22 of 3v3 me and both of my teammates all placed top 250 that season. TBH was a great feeling. Those moments are what areans are for. Where we the best? Ofc not. Did if feel awesome that our entire team took up spots on the leaderboard in the same season? You bet your kitten it did. 

Edited February 23, 2023 by jdawgie.1835

[Bazsi.2734]

On 2/20/2023 at 3:17 PM, Zombiesbum.3502 said:

Except that 90% of players play as solo, so your logic is invalid when we look at reality over your ideals.

Ah yes, kick the birthday guy out, after all there is more of you who do not have a birthday tonight, so why should we cater to the ONE person for whom the party was thrown?
Flawless forum arguments, alwas a delight to read.

[Kako.1930]

On 2/22/2023 at 1:04 PM, Saiyan.1704 said:

Queue times would be quicker for 2v2 & 3v3 gamemodes because matchmaking pulls less players. Match quality would improve drastically IF this was soloQ only... this would be true for Conquest as well.

The problem this game continues to have is premades; people are dodging premades, leading to solo/duo to go up against top25, resulting in more blowout games.

Generally the Leaderboards top 3 or top 5 players don't really have much for competition. Incorporating AT fixed the 5's premade toxicity issue but there's still the issue with premade dodges & player rotation boosting in ranked duoQ conquest and the miniseason..... so why not just have 2v2/3v3 AT's for the miniseason, while also making 5v5 Ranked soloQ only?

5's AT every 2hrs

2's/3's AT every 30minutes during the mini-season.

5v5 Ranked SoloQ only | Miniseason gamemodes Ranked soloQ | Unranked 5's remains the same.

Edit: There will still be rating/match manipulation but top players attempting to queue sync, with multiple accounts, would be more difficult if ALL Ranked enabled gamemodes were soloQ.

 

That's a good point about the queue dodging for premades. I've definitely done that as well to avoid getting crushed so much as a solo player, and I really like your suggestions here. These would be really interesting changes if implemented. 🙂

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

I still don't play 2v2 or 3v3, but I'm driven to agree purely out of hate shared towards the "I just want to play with friends" liars.

It's 2023. People saw right through that excuse like 10 years ago for the crock it is. Baffling to think people are still using it. Its 100% cap. Stop lying to yourself and others, sinners! It is a heinous sin, and today is the day of our lord CmC! 😡

 

If anyone wants to know what merged queues are truly for; in any competitive setting, just listen to misshapen youtube man:

Lastly I'd just recommend leaving. New Arenanet does not care for our kind, kin. They never have.

There's 0 excuse as to why they could never; at the very least, just add a SoloQ competitive ranked arena and appeal to the 90% of people who SoloQ and only SoloQ. It's to create an argument basically. A war, a boogeyman. It's clear they're never going to change it.

 

I can't go back without losing all this to see who said it, but the person who said the MMO purists would be 🔩'd without us SoloQs was spot on. The more of us that leave, the longer their matchmaking becomes.

Every second of their lives wasted is cause for jubilee, and when all it takes to accomplish that is simply making the decision not to "compete" in a "competition" that doesn't want you, then that's an easy done deal. An express pass to pure, unadulterated rapture.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

8 hours ago, Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

There's 0 excuse as to why they could never; at the very least, just add a SoloQ competitive ranked arena and appeal to the 90% of people who SoloQ and only SoloQ. 

 

SoloQ and Team Q should have their own queues, this ^ is the root of the problem. If you're able to coordinate an effort, you should have to fight people who also have made an attempt to coordinate that effort at the very least, otherwise the ranking system is meaningless because, as mentioned, it will continue to be populated by people who avoid groups they have trouble against and will target whoever is less coordinated. 

 

HOWEVER. I don't think that applies to

 

Quote

2v2 or 3v3

 

because the groups here are small enough that two people with interest can manipulate the game to tilt wins at all times if you enforce soloing. I will agree with this rationale for 5v5 conquest, though. 

 

If you're going to rank people based on team effort, insist that they make teams, like you do with MAT. If you're going to rank them based on how quickly they can find their feet in a random team, Duo or trio availability ruins that effort. If you want to rank people based on individual effort, blind 1v1 is how you do that. 

 

But you'd need to balance the game first.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

2 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

SoloQ and Team Q should have their own queues, this ^ is the root of the problem. If you're able to coordinate an effort, you should have to fight people who also have made an attempt to coordinate that effort at the very least, otherwise the ranking system is meaningless because, as mentioned, it will continue to be populated by people who avoid groups they have trouble against and will target whoever is less coordinated. 

I appreciate your words. Toxicity seems to be a big topic going around right now, and I want to just for a second, put into perspective how damaging merged queues are in that regard.

Forcing casual and competitive-minded gamers into the same "competitive" queue, and calling it competitive is never a good idea. Nobody ends up where they want to be and it most definitely causes people to resent one and other when they are expected to compete in a "competition" that allows a straight-up advantage over other competitors.

It's made even more annoying when you realize this is done to cater to a minority of players that rely on rat-tactics to gatekeep the leaderboard and humble brag to everyone about their ungodly winrate.

2 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

HOWEVER. I don't think that applies to 2v2 or 3v3

 

 

because the groups here are small enough that two people with interest can manipulate the game to tilt wins at all times if you enforce soloing. I will agree with this rationale for 5v5 conquest, though. 

Because of the aforementioned reasons I'm of the mind where solo/duo solo/trio solo/anything is a bad idea.

I agree that 2v2/3v3 are both small enough to justify full premade teams, but it should only be full premade teams in that case.

They should not include solos and teamers in the same RANKED* queue, ever. Period. 

And I will reinstall gw2 just to stunlock endlessly anyone who wants to tell me to play with a handicap for the sake of the game's population. If anything, the state of the game's population should be a clear indicator that merged queues do not work, and only serve to create close-minded toxic players, and the multiple different human comings of Babylon.

2 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

If you're going to rank people based on team effort, insist that they make teams, like you do with MAT. If you're going to rank them based on how quickly they can find their feet in a random team, Duo or trio availability ruins that effort. If you want to rank people based on individual effort, blind 1v1 is how you do that. 

 

But you'd need to balance the game first.

I'm prepared to wait on faith alone, but I have a feeling I will be a skeleton by the time anyone ever considers the game remotely close to being such.
And the world will have been consumed by the sun by the time everyone can come together and agree "yeah, this is alright."

Edited February 26, 2023 by Multicolorhipster.9751

[Zombiesbum.3502]

On 2/25/2023 at 1:42 AM, Bazsi.2734 said:

Ah yes, kick the birthday guy out, after all there is more of you who do not have a birthday tonight, so why should we cater to the ONE person for whom the party was thrown?
Flawless forum arguments, alwas a delight to read.

Comparing an online competitive game mode to a birthday party. And you want me to take you seriously? If you want to mock someone's argument, at least come up with an analogy that actually makes a lick of sense.

[Bazsi.2734]

32 minutes ago, Zombiesbum.3502 said:

Comparing an online competitive game mode to a birthday party. And you want me to take you seriously? If you want to mock someone's argument, at least come up with an analogy that actually makes a lick of sense.

Well I'm sorry you don't like my analogy. Telling you straight up that 3v3 wasn't made for solo players had no effect, so I thought making a fun analogy might have better results. But apparently you don't like birthday parties, sorry for assuming. I'm starting to see why you want 3v3 to be soloQ only. Good luck on your crusade! 

[Zombiesbum.3502]

4 hours ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

Well I'm sorry you don't like my analogy. Telling you straight up that 3v3 wasn't made for solo players had no effect, so I thought making a fun analogy might have better results. But apparently you don't like birthday parties, sorry for assuming. I'm starting to see why you want 3v3 to be soloQ only. Good luck on your crusade! 

If 3v3 and 2v2 aren't made for solo players, then why can you solo queue into it? Your logic of "it wasn't made for solo" falls apart the moment someone thinks about the reality of the mode. And the reason you are unable to convince me is because your arguments make no sense. Stop blaming others for not getting your points if your points are shite.