Is it just me or have they killed off all major high fantasy aspects so far?

[Firebeard.1746]

I can't say i'm the most well versed person in tyrian lore, but it feels like we've killed off or lost all the major high fantasy characters: the gods and dragons. Does this make sense in terms of a story direction? I feel like gw2 started off as high fantasy and it will lose that feel if all the story devolves into is factional conflict, which is where it feels like it's headed with so many major high fantasy characters dead or gone. 

[voltaicbore.8012]

For me, high fantasy is far more than having a global-scale threat. Pre-modern societies (on which high fantasy is modeled) often lack a good grasp of exactly how large the 'world' actually is; the 'world-ending' threats might be more accurately seen as continental or multi-regional threats at best. Back in the classical era, western civilization basically thought continental Europe, the Mediterranean, bits of western Asia, and maybe north Africa essentially constituted 'the world.' I think most fictional high fantasy worlds share that same pitifully limited perception of their own worlds.

The upside to such a flawed and narrow understanding of one's own world is that I think it's possible for the game (...if Anet actually cared to) recover a feeling of high fantasy with a smaller-scale, factional story.

But if 'high fantasy' requires gods, dragons, or a threat of similar scale that requires global unification to defeat, I guess that truly is gone from GW2.

Thankfully I don't really mind that - on balance I consider the dragon storyline unimpressive, expect a similar level of 'meh' from a god/demon storyline, and actually have higher hopes for faction-scale stories.

What I really miss when it comes to 'high fantasy' are all the other tropes and motifs - generally a lower level of technology (instead of cell phones and personal drones), a sense of being a scrappy adventurer trying to make it (as opposed to basically being a former NATO commander and being honored as such everywhere we go), visiting taverns and inns to gather information and allies, and just all the other feudal-era nonsense. Don't get me wrong, I love mounts, waypoints, and asura gates - I'm just saying from a story perspective, those are the kinds of things I consider necessary to pull off proper 'high fantasy.' In that sense, for me high fantasy in GW2 was dead well before we offed the last dragon.

Edited February 23, 2023 by voltaicbore.8012

[Firebeard.1746]

1 hour ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

But if 'high fantasy' requires gods, dragons, or a threat of similar scale that requires global unification to defeat, I guess that truly is gone from GW2.

It's not so much the global threat as it is what that kind or power introduces into the world. For example, the Sylvari were created by mordremoth. You have less residual fantasy elements as a result of that kind of creative power missing (magic, minions, etc). That's my concern.

But i'd like there to still be an entity that could spawn a new race or reshape the world in some way because that would give the devs room to create really fantastical environments. For example, what if lyssa created a magical island we could explore? For me asura gates don't kill fantasy. And there's still plenty of ways to introduce those elements and have technology with it side by side. 

As far as threats go, An idea i have with what we still have in game is  an expansion where we fight demons in the mists, but i wouldn't want our victory to be final so we can fight them again later. 

To me fighting other people like us sounds really boring. I'm not saying we should always be fighting a fantasy character but i'd feel really bored if it's just factional conflict from here on out.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Firebeard.1746

[mandala.8507]

Literally 1 god is dead. The gods "leaving" just meant they weren't around to help us. That was the plot device for PoF, where the idea was, since we were having trouble with a god, we were trying to entreat the rest of the 6 to hopefully step in. They left for 2 major reasons, the first being that they just seemed doomed to have to fight the dragons one day if they stayed, and secondly that Tyria was not their only responsibility across the entire expanse of the universe of which Tyria is a part. Thus, since their hands were tied on Tyria unless they wanted to risk a war with the dragons (which clearly Balthy wanted but the others knew would likely result in Tyria's end), they peaced out.

Now that the dragons have been dealt with and the cycle reborn with Aurene, there's no reason the gods can't be active players in the grander scheme of the narrative again. We're basically back to the same place we were in gw1 as far as the state and nature of the lore and grandeur of the world.

I don't think the mechanisms of the fantasy have shifted in any meaningful, fundamental way. In less than 10 years, we managed to hatch and raise the most powerful elder dragon Tyria had ever seen (basically a dragon god), so nothing's stopping other large forces from manifesting in some way.

I'm not worried about it.

[Firebeard.1746]

1 hour ago, mandala.8507 said:

so nothing's stopping other large forces from manifesting in some way

I hope so. 

[voltaicbore.8012]

2 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

In less than 10 years, we managed to hatch and raise the most powerful elder dragon Tyria had ever seen (basically a dragon god), so nothing's stopping other large forces from manifesting in some way.

Eh. This is precisely what I'm worried about. They sacrificed Primordus (and IBS, effectively) on the altar of rushing to EoD and literally ending the dragon storyline. There would be almost no advantage to immediately having a similar cosmic-scale threat re-emerge. They might as well have kept the dragon threat going, if that's how they're going to play it.

Of all the things that I don't like about the most recent announcement, I at least got the sense they were going to stick with more reasonably scaled down stories. I'm just not sure gods and other minion-producing villains are really the right way forward from here. Just my opinion though - I do miss high fantasy, but I just think that ship has sailed for GW2 and I don't see Anet artfully bringing any of that back.

[Dr Meta.3158]

8 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

I can't say i'm the most well versed person in tyrian lore, but it feels like we've killed off or lost all the major high fantasy characters: the gods and dragons. Does this make sense in terms of a story direction? I feel like gw2 started off as high fantasy and it will lose that feel if all the story devolves into is factional conflict, which is where it feels like it's headed with so many major high fantasy characters dead or gone. 

The story seems like it will be transitioning from traditional to postmodern based narratives. 

Edited February 24, 2023 by Dr Meta.3158
Typo

[Gibson.4036]

I have cosmic power fatigue.

There’s a reason Joko is far and away a more popular villain than the mountain sized Elder Dragons.

[Imba.9451]

 

2 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

I have cosmic power fatigue.

There’s a reason Joko is far and away a more popular villain than the mountain sized Elder Dragons.

 

I feel exactly the same.

Unfortunately, that a trap many fantasy IP's seem to fall into, if they go on long enough. The writers seems to think that the stakes have to be taken up a leven again and again, until we reach eldritch horror and Void elements.

 

Personally, a story about personal stakes, smaller scale, would be fine with me. Not every story needs to evolve around saving the world.

[Dr Meta.3158]

I was interested in the horror aspect Jormag was going for before it took a sudden turn out if that when they decided to scrap the icebrood saga and rush jormag and primordius to their deaths. And poor primordius. All the other elder dragons got an entire story to their namesake even if Jormag kinda got shafted on that. But this guy got slapped on at the end of someone else's story and killed off like a he was a henchman or something.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

 

16 minutes ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

I was interested in the horror aspect Jormag was going for before it took a sudden turn out if that when they decided to scrap the icebrood saga and rush jormag and primordius to their deaths. And poor primordius. All the other elder dragons got an entire story to their namesake even if Jormag kinda got shafted on that. But this guy got slapped on at the end of someone else's story and killed off like a he was a henchman or something.

Except this didn't really happen at all.

Each of the five evil Elder Dragons got "teaser" content where we fight those Dragons' minions in a significant way, leading to a major champion fight, but where the story of those areas wasn't "this is the big fight against X dragon"

1. Zhaitan had the southern part of Bloodtide, and Sparkfly Fen. Leading to its champion Tequatl.
2. Jormag had the northern part of Wayfarer, the northeastern part of Snowden, and Frostgorge. Leading to its champion the Claw
3. Kralk had the dragonbrand which ran through Fields of Ruins, Blazeridge, and Iron Marches. Leading to its champion the Shatterer
4. Mordremoth got parts of Dry Top, and the Silverwastes map. Leading to its champion the Vinewrath
5. Primordus had destroyers scattered all over. Metrica, Brisban, Kessix, Lornars, Timerline, and Mount Maelstrom. Leading to its champion the Megadestoryer

Then when it came time to fight those dragons each got 3 maps + a dragon fight

1. Zhaitan had Straights of Devastation, Malchor's Leap, and Cursed Shore. Plus the dragon fight in Arah story mode
2. Mordremoth had Verdint Brink, auric Basin, and Tangled Depths. Plus the dragon fight in Dragon's Stand
3. Kralkatorrik had Vabbi, Jahai, and Thunderhead. Plus the dragon fight in Dragonfall.
4. Soo-Won/The Void had Seitung, New Kaineng, and Echovald.Plus the dragon fight in Dragon's end.

Jormag and Primordus worked on the same pattern. The only difference was that their story was spread across two arcs(LWS3, and IBS) rather than one. And if you look at that well.

1. Jormag got 3 maps. Bitterfrost, Bjora, and Drizzlewood
2. Primordus got two maps. Ember Bay and Draconis Mons
3. Both got a Dragonstorm final fight

The only thing that got cut was the Primordus focused map that was going to be in the Centaur Homelands. But the actual Primordus/Jormag story that was going to happen in that map got moved to the first two DRM sets. Primordus got most of his narrative stuff back in LWS3. With all the Asura investigations, his attack on Tarir to try to kill Aurene, the dragon lab at Rata Novus etc. And if you look LWS3 and IBS were built as parallels to each other

1. LWS3 was a largely Human/Asura focused story, with Primordus taking a big role, about a rogue human god(Balthazar), stealing an Asura made weapon(Taimi's machine), in an attempt to use it against the Asura's major enemy dragon(Primordus)
2. IBS was a largely Charr/Norn focused sotry, with Jormag taking a big role, about a rogue Charr Imperator(Bangar), stealing a Norn weapon(Braham's Bow), in an attempt to use it against the Norn's major enemy dragon(Jormag)

We know the original plan for IBS was that there was only going to be 4 more chapters, spread across two maps, and one more vision of the past release

1. Chapters 5/6 in the Centaur Homelands covering Primordus' stirring, destroyers coming to the surface, Braham's destroyer sense stuff/confusion about role in prophecy/getting advice from Owl, Taimi's research into Destroyer's, Ryland/Jormag exploiting the Asura's hatred of Primordus to form an alliance with them ,get thier Primordus data, then betray them.(As we saw in Champions 1/2)
2. Vision 2: Braham goes into the Volcano to become Primordus' champion(As we saw at the beginning of Champions 3)
3. Chapter 7/8 We gather our allies the Charr, Norn, and Centaurs, and slog through Anvil Rock to bash the dragons to death.(rest of Champions 3+4 minus centaurs)

There was no substantive Primordus plot cut from IBS. Only thing that got cut was the Centaur plot.

[Imba.9451]

30 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

 

Except this didn't really happen at all.

Each of the five evil Elder Dragons got "teaser" content where we fight those Dragons' minions in a significant way, leading to a major champion fight, but where the story of those areas wasn't "this is the big fight against X dragon"

1. Zhaitan had the southern part of Bloodtide, and Sparkfly Fen. Leading to its champion Tequatl.
2. Jormag had the northern part of Wayfarer, the northeastern part of Snowden, and Frostgorge. Leading to its champion the Claw
3. Kralk had the dragonbrand which ran through Fields of Ruins, Blazeridge, and Iron Marches. Leading to its champion the Shatterer
4. Mordremoth got parts of Dry Top, and the Silverwastes map. Leading to its champion the Vinewrath
5. Primordus had destroyers scattered all over. Metrica, Brisban, Kessix, Lornars, Timerline, and Mount Maelstrom. Leading to its champion the Megadestoryer

Then when it came time to fight those dragons each got 3 maps + a dragon fight

1. Zhaitan had Straights of Devastation, Malchor's Leap, and Cursed Shore. Plus the dragon fight in Arah story mode
2. Mordremoth had Verdint Brink, auric Basin, and Tangled Depths. Plus the dragon fight in Dragon's Stand
3. Kralkatorrik had Vabbi, Jahai, and Thunderhead. Plus the dragon fight in Dragonfall.
4. Soo-Won/The Void had Seitung, New Kaineng, and Echovald.Plus the dragon fight in Dragon's end.

Jormag and Primordus worked on the same pattern. The only difference was that their story was spread across two arcs(LWS3, and IBS) rather than one. And if you look at that well.

1. Jormag got 3 maps. Bitterfrost, Bjora, and Drizzlewood
2. Primordus got two maps. Ember Bay and Draconis Mons
3. Both got a Dragonstorm final fight

The only thing that got cut was the Primordus focused map that was going to be in the Centaur Homelands. But the actual Primordus/Jormag story that was going to happen in that map got moved to the first two DRM sets. Primordus got most of his narrative stuff back in LWS3. With all the Asura investigations, his attack on Tarir to try to kill Aurene, the dragon lab at Rata Novus etc. And if you look LWS3 and IBS were built as parallels to each other

1. LWS3 was a largely Human/Asura focused story, with Primordus taking a big role, about a rogue human god(Balthazar), stealing an Asura made weapon(Taimi's machine), in an attempt to use it against the Asura's major enemy dragon(Primordus)
2. IBS was a largely Charr/Norn focused sotry, with Jormag taking a big role, about a rogue Charr Imperator(Bangar), stealing a Norn weapon(Braham's Bow), in an attempt to use it against the Norn's major enemy dragon(Jormag)

We know the original plan for IBS was that there was only going to be 4 more chapters, spread across two maps, and one more vision of the past release

1. Chapters 5/6 in the Centaur Homelands covering Primordus' stirring, destroyers coming to the surface, Braham's destroyer sense stuff/confusion about role in prophecy/getting advice from Owl, Taimi's research into Destroyer's, Ryland/Jormag exploiting the Asura's hatred of Primordus to form an alliance with them ,get thier Primordus data, then betray them.(As we saw in Champions 1/2)
2. Vision 2: Braham goes into the Volcano to become Primordus' champion(As we saw at the beginning of Champions 3)
3. Chapter 7/8 We gather our allies the Charr, Norn, and Centaurs, and slog through Anvil Rock to bash the dragons to death.(rest of Champions 3+4 minus centaurs)

There was no substantive Primordus plot cut from IBS. Only thing that got cut was the Centaur plot.

We already had this discussion about why IBS was lackluster in terms of writing over a year ago. So why do you keep bringing your same points up again, when you backed away from the discussion back then, after you have been unable to adress my (and many others) points about why IBS was badly constructed?

I mean, it is common knowledge by now that the whole IBS was in production hell.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

34 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said:

We already had this discussion about why IBS was lackluster in terms of writing over a year ago. So why do you keep bringing your same points up again, when you backed away from the discussion back then, after you have been unable to adress my (and many others) points about why IBS was badly constructed?

I mean, it is common knowledge by now that the whole IBS was in production hell.

You offered nothing substantive, and just kept going in circles, that whole conversation. If you have something substantive that needs addressing, please present it.

[Imba.9451]

5 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

You offered nothing substantive, and just kept going in circles, that whole conversation. If you have something substantive that needs addressing, please present it.

You argued against me for several pages, wich might lead to the assumption, that what I, and other wrote, was substantive enough to keep engaging with. So this answer is a simple cop-out and borderline ad-hominem. Especially after copypastinmg the same things that lead to our discussion in the first place.

So if you have anything substantive that hasn't already been refuted (as seen here:

), please present it.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Imba.9451

[cyberzombie.7348]

4 hours ago, Imba.9451 said:

Not every story needs to evolve around saving the world.

This, especially since action fatigue is a thing. And keeping the stakes so grand for so long loses it's shock value. It also gets annoying being the main muscle to solve it. 

Edited February 24, 2023 by cyberzombie.7348

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Ever since Season 3, Guild Wars 2 has been becoming less and less high fantasy. From the Season 3 introduction of continental cellphones and internet, to the End of Dragons introduction of "microwaves" (in name and appearance but maybe maybe not actual function), encrypted communications, "mechs" and "bots", and so forth.

 

So yeah. Guild Wars2 has lost its high fantasy aspects. And I don't mean in killing its dragons and gods - there are still dragons out there, and other fantasy races. But GW2 is now closer to Shadowrun than it is to Lord of the Rings. Take that for what you will.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

29 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Ever since Season 3, Guild Wars 2 has been becoming less and less high fantasy. From the Season 3 introduction of continental cellphones and internet, to the End of Dragons introduction of "microwaves" (in name and appearance but maybe maybe not actual function), encrypted communications, "mechs" and "bots", and so forth.

 

So yeah. Guild Wars2 has lost its high fantasy aspects. And I don't mean in killing its dragons and gods - there are still dragons out there, and other fantasy races. But GW2 is now closer to Shadowrun than it is to Lord of the Rings. Take that for what you will.

Well LoTR was never high fantasy. LoTR its the poster boy of "low fantasy" settings. But yeah, GW2 is very magi-tech, not traditional high fantasy.

[Gibson.4036]

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

But GW2 is now closer to Shadowrun than it is to Lord of the Rings. Take that for what you will.

I wish. Xunlai Jade would have been far more interesting. We may be getting some “cyber”, but we certainly don’t have much “punk”.

Also, to note

 High fantasy does not have to be Medieval fantasy, but Medieval fantasy is often high fantasy. 

 

https://fictionlit.com/high-fantasy-vs-medieval-fantasy/#:~:text=Some of the most popular,fantasy is often high fantasy.

Edited February 25, 2023 by Gibson.4036

[Gibson.4036]

2 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Well LoTR was never high fantasy. LoTR its the poster boy of "low fantasy" settings. But yeah, GW2 is very magi-tech, not traditional high fantasy.

 

You seem confused.

https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=high+fantasy+versus+low+fantasy

 

Edited February 25, 2023 by Gibson.4036

[MarzAttakz.9608]

I think Steven Erikson's "Malazan Book of the Fallen" series would make an incredible MMO adaptation - a gritty dirty modern take on Fantasy without all the High Fantasy tropes.

Regarding Guild Wars 2 I admittedly never delved into the Lore much and even if I had I'd still feel the focus on "Commander, let's slay ANOTHER Dragon" is amateur at best.

Perhaps it boils down to me not finding the races and factions interesting with the exception of the Sylvari who to me are beautifully portrayed (if you ignore Dryads as the "root").

Norn: obligatory meat heads (Eir being an exception)

Charr: obligatory teeth gnashers

Asura: obligatory gadgetry (kudos to Taimi though)

Human: obligatory generic

It's all so purile and not even on the level of old Dragonlance books I read as a child. Personally it lacks cohesion, a hodge podge of lowest hanging fruits to capture the broadest audience.

I love the majority of the game play but the story telling falls flat.

[Kiof.5710]

7 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

I wish. Xunlai Jade would have been far more interesting. We may be getting some “cyber”, but we certainly don’t have much “punk”.

Also, to note

 High fantasy does not have to be Medieval fantasy, but Medieval fantasy is often high fantasy. 

 

https://fictionlit.com/high-fantasy-vs-medieval-fantasy/#:~:text=Some of the most popular,fantasy is often high fantasy.

I really enjoyed that link and reading about the different types of fantasy stories.  Went down a mini rabbit hole reading some of the other articles on that site.

[Ashantara.8731]

On 2/23/2023 at 8:00 PM, Firebeard.1746 said:

I can't say i'm the most well versed person in tyrian lore, but it feels like we've killed off or lost all the major high fantasy characters: the gods and dragons.

High fantasy is a design style (which I am sorely missing in EoD), not a matter of what kind of obstacle the heroes have to overcome. Small-scale adventures are just as valid for the genre as big-scale "end of the world" scenarios, and in most cases more fun.

[stormemperor.3745]

You can see shadow of Giant in Aberrant Forest before Boneskinner meta.

Dragons were the main fantasy of gw2, they corrupted literally everything. Pretty much ended some races. Forever gone...

There are still some races you can interact with in Tyria but obviously lacking.

 

Cantha is a big failure in terms of fantasy. They should have made a steampunk approach to cantha instead of jade bs.

Raptors are sorry excuse of transport to make it look fantasy like. They could have made jade cars. Cantha is literally irl, you go work, deal with papers, come back to your shack and cry.

 

Its been more than 10 years and no I don't consider asura, norn, sylvari and charr as fantasy. They are 100% Tyrian, humans are more fantasy than anything you see in Tyria.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

On 2/23/2023 at 1:00 PM, Firebeard.1746 said:

I can't say i'm the most well versed person in tyrian lore, but it feels like we've killed off or lost all the major high fantasy characters: the gods and dragons. Does this make sense in terms of a story direction? I feel like gw2 started off as high fantasy and it will lose that feel if all the story devolves into is factional conflict, which is where it feels like it's headed with so many major high fantasy characters dead or gone. 

 

1 hour ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

High fantasy is a design style (which I am sorely missing in EoD), not a matter of what kind of obstacle the heroes have to overcome. Small-scale adventures are just as valid for the genre as big-scale "end of the world" scenarios, and in most cases more fun.

^^^^This.

10 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

 

You seem confused.

https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=high+fantasy+versus+low+fantasy

 

Or perhaps is intentionally being contrarian, as I've long suspected.

 

Edited February 25, 2023 by The Greyhawk.9107

[Kalavier.1097]

2 hours ago, stormemperor.3745 said:

Cantha is a big failure in terms of fantasy. They should have made a steampunk approach to cantha instead of jade bs.

Raptors are sorry excuse of transport to make it look fantasy like. They could have made jade cars. Cantha is literally irl, you go work, deal with papers, come back to your shack and cry.

Its been more than 10 years and no I don't consider asura, norn, sylvari and charr as fantasy. They are 100% Tyrian, humans are more fantasy than anything you see in Tyria.

A: Steampunk was done already with Charr. Jade tech (though there are some steam tech parts) is present as an alternative to Asura and Charr tech. The visual style I think works to make Cantha distinct from the other two, where steampunk style may not have been able to do that as well.

B: Is the complaint about raptors, or raptors in cantha? Because we've seen how they made Canthan style raptors (both organic and jade-tech). Cars wouldn't really work that great in Kaineng, and it's not like there isn't other modes of transport available anyway.

C : What? Third line doesn't make sense. "Classically fantasy"? Maybe? But who looks at a race of literal plant-people with no meat or flesh and goes "That isn't fantasy."