Perma stealth on thiefs is wrong in WvW. Offers no counterplay.

[Sleepwalker.1398]

11 hours ago, Bern.9613 said:

Did thief just get introduced to the game? Is thief the only one capable of stealth? You say willbender/guardian doesn't stand a chance?

Guess he didn't get that memo.

In case you aren't paying attention, Mesmer is the most nerfed class in game. Power has not been reduced in pvp, wvw from day one until Feb 2020. In recent history,  Josh Davis said; Shadow Arts has long been a source of frustrating gameplay, particularly in competitive PvP and WvW, then proceeded to upgrade shadow arts giving thief superspeed and init in and out of stealth. Fourteenth of February they went and turned Shadow Meld from an elite to, whatever they think it is now. When trapper runes were introduced, they took traps away from thief, because "Ghost Thief" was such a healthy class to play in wvw. In the gutting of Shadow Arts, they removed the speed boost while stealthed making it difficult to land a melee stealth attack which goes into cool down when missed because it was being spammed. 

Found some errors and corrected it for you 😂

Edited March 15, 2023 by Sleepwalker.1398
Removed YT clip

[Bern.9613]

1 hour ago, Sleepwalker.1398 said:

Found some errors and corrected it for you 😂

The error is YOU thinking YOU can SPEAK for me.

[Sleepwalker.1398]

10 minutes ago, Bern.9613 said:

The error is YOU thinking YOU can SPEAK for me.

It is the truth, we all know it. 

Also i missed adding, after removing traps, they gave you portal, like wtf man.

[Bern.9613]

7 minutes ago, Sleepwalker.1398 said:

It is the truth, we all know it. 

Also i missed adding, after removing traps, they gave you portal, like wtf man.

Once again, DO NOT SPEAK FOR ME!!!

The removal of traps from thief just shows that instead of ditching the trapper runes, they chose to NERF thief yet again. Portals are like your so called "buffs" to Shadow Arts. USELESS. Why would I want 1 sec of superspeed in and out of stealth when I had a speed bonus while stealthed? Why would I want a minimal heal in and out of stealth when I had heals while in stealth? It boggles the mind to think people eat this tripe and think it's a win. Here's a quick list of just a few nerfs to thief power;

Backstab
February 25, 2020    Competitive content update:
(Competitive split) Reduced base power coefficient from 1.2 to 0.9. Reduced flanking power coefficient from 2.4 to 1.8.
July 10, 2018    
The aftercast of this skill has been reduced by a little less than 0.5 seconds
July 26, 2016    
All stealth attack skills will now have a 1-second recharge between uses.

Sneak Attack
May 26, 2020    
Reduced bleeding duration from 6 seconds to 5 seconds in PvP and WvW.
February 25, 2020    Competitive content update:
(Competitive split) Reduced power coefficient per hit from 0.36 to 0.3

Malicious Backstab
February 25, 2020    Competitive content update:
(Competitive split) Reduced base power coefficient from 1.2 to 0.9. Reduced flanking power coefficient from 2.4 to 1.8

Death's Judgement
February 25, 2020    Competitive content update:
(Competitive split) Reduced power coefficient from 1.65 to 1.11.
December 11, 2018    
This skill can now be blocked.

Death Blossom
February 25, 2020    Competitive content update:
(Competitive split) Increased initiative cost from 4 to 5.

Shadow Shot
February 25, 2020    Competitive content update:
(Competitive split) Increased initiative cost from 4 to 5.

Shadow Strike
July 07, 2020    
Repeater availability duration has been reduced from 4 to 3 seconds in PvP and WvW.
May 26, 2020    
Reduced the number of torment stacks from 4 to 2 in PvP and WvW.

Unload
February 25, 2020    Competitive content update:
(Competitive split) Reduced power coefficient per hit from 0.4 to 0.27. Reduced might duration from 8 seconds to 6 seconds.

Mug
February 25, 2020    Competitive content update:
(Competitive split) Reduced power coefficient from 1.5 to 0.75.
April 30, 2013    
Can no longer critically hit.

The fact that all the thief power decreases and initiative increases occur in conjunction with Cal Cohen's move to competitive designer is not a coincidence. As you might guess I prefer competitive modes, mainly wvw. I would prefer open world pve player kill ability.

[Dr Meta.3158]

1 hour ago, Bern.9613 said:

Once again, DO NOT SPEAK FOR ME!!!

The removal of traps from thief just shows that instead of ditching the trapper runes, they chose to NERF thief yet again. Portals are like your so called "buffs" to Shadow Arts. USELESS. Why would I want 1 sec of superspeed in and out of stealth when I had a speed bonus while stealthed? Why would I want a minimal heal in and out of stealth when I had heals while in stealth? It boggles the mind to think people eat this tripe and think it's a win. Here's a quick list of just a few nerfs to thief power;

Backstab
February 25, 2020    Competitive content update:
(Competitive split) Reduced base power coefficient from 1.2 to 0.9. Reduced flanking power coefficient from 2.4 to 1.8.
July 10, 2018    
The aftercast of this skill has been reduced by a little less than 0.5 seconds
July 26, 2016    
All stealth attack skills will now have a 1-second recharge between uses.

Sneak Attack
May 26, 2020    
Reduced bleeding duration from 6 seconds to 5 seconds in PvP and WvW.
February 25, 2020    Competitive content update:
(Competitive split) Reduced power coefficient per hit from 0.36 to 0.3

Malicious Backstab
February 25, 2020    Competitive content update:
(Competitive split) Reduced base power coefficient from 1.2 to 0.9. Reduced flanking power coefficient from 2.4 to 1.8

Death's Judgement
February 25, 2020    Competitive content update:
(Competitive split) Reduced power coefficient from 1.65 to 1.11.
December 11, 2018    
This skill can now be blocked.

Death Blossom
February 25, 2020    Competitive content update:
(Competitive split) Increased initiative cost from 4 to 5.

Shadow Shot
February 25, 2020    Competitive content update:
(Competitive split) Increased initiative cost from 4 to 5.

Shadow Strike
July 07, 2020    
Repeater availability duration has been reduced from 4 to 3 seconds in PvP and WvW.
May 26, 2020    
Reduced the number of torment stacks from 4 to 2 in PvP and WvW.

Unload
February 25, 2020    Competitive content update:
(Competitive split) Reduced power coefficient per hit from 0.4 to 0.27. Reduced might duration from 8 seconds to 6 seconds.

Mug
February 25, 2020    Competitive content update:
(Competitive split) Reduced power coefficient from 1.5 to 0.75.
April 30, 2013    
Can no longer critically hit.

The fact that all the thief power decreases and initiative increases occur in conjunction with Cal Cohen's move to competitive designer is not a coincidence. As you might guess I prefer competitive modes, mainly wvw. I would prefer open world pve player kill ability.

He had a temper tantrum. 😄

[stormemperor.3745]

22 hours ago, kroxx.1032 said:

What is the counterplay if you don't have reveal?

Use your pro gamer skills and spider senses to dodge. 6th sense is also a bonus.

[Sleepwalker.1398]

2 hours ago, Bern.9613 said:

Once again, DO NOT SPEAK FOR ME!!!

The removal of traps from thief just shows that instead of ditching the trapper runes, they chose to NERF thief yet again. Portals are like your so called "buffs" to Shadow Arts. USELESS.

If you give thief a chance to get into any keep, that keep can easily be flipped ..unless you want to waste 5 ppl looking around for him. That is how strong portal is. Even on a tower getting flipped, thief can drop portal and leave and come back later to renew the portal or flip it. Shadow Arts is useless?? try playing a DE or D/P and see.

Just don;t go around saying thief is the most nerfed class cos it's not. Do you want me to post mesmer nerfs and things we asking to be fixed and its just being ignored ?

PS. This you posted in as nerfs are mostly Feb 2020. Do you think thief was the only class that got nerf in that patch? Maybe you just read thief section and thought "oh thief nerf, other classes buff."

Edited March 15, 2023 by Sleepwalker.1398

[Dr Meta.3158]

12 minutes ago, Sleepwalker.1398 said:

If you give thief a chance to get into any keep, that keep can easily be flipped ..unless you want to waste 5 ppl looking around for him. That is how strong portal is. Even on a tower getting flipped, thief can drop portal and leave and come back later to renew the portal or flip it. Shadow Arts is useless?? try playing a DE or D/P and see.

Just don;t go around saying thief is the most nerfed class cos it's not. Do you want me to post mesmer nerfs and things we asking to be fixed and its just being ignored ?

PS. This you posted in as nerfs are mostly Feb 2020. Do you think thief was the only class that got nerf in that patch? Maybe you just read thief section and thought "oh thief nerf, other classes buff."

He's saying thief is the most nerfed to protect the class not because he actually believes it.

[misterman.1530]

One possible "fix" for this would be to add to the Presence of the Keep trait:

• Cannot Stealth

So, once a thief, or any other class that can stealth, is within the range of Presence of the Keep, no Stealth is possible. 

No more perma stealth inside keeps. An exception might be made for stealth fields that let groups go invis for attacking/defending. Just not able to invidually stealth constantly.

Alternatively, the Presence of the Keep could be:

• Stealth can only be applied once every 60 seconds.

So, players get a debuff that lasts 60 seconds once they stealth.

Frankly I think that this mechanic should be in any objective, regardless of the trait or its level.  A basic, intrinsic part of every objective.

 

[MedievalThings.5417]

Having played a few thousand hours on thief, I still do not understand why daredevil has 3 dodges.  But yeah, removing the smoke field from pistol 5 would probably fix all this.

[HARDOFREADING.7298]

Listen to what bern is saying.....Ive been nerfed a literal 1000x. The thief nerf count vs ranger nerf count over the last 4 years is a 100 to 1 ratio.

 For every 1 ranger nerf...there have been 100 thief nerfs.  It is what it is at this point. The best of us dont even play cuz you know all thats coming is another set of nerfs that crow bar you into a handful of builds.

 Hard pass.

[Sonork.2916]

I think the worst thing about fighting thieves is that they always dictate the fight.  Their opponents have to play around them and their stealth/ports, and can only ever react to what the thief decides to do.  Not every core class has reveal skills so counter play is very limited to either 1-2 possible reveal skills, or waiting to see what the thief does.  But even with reveal, a quick 900 range port or 3 from the thief, and whatever skill you used never mattered anyways.

[Dr Meta.3158]

 

1 hour ago, misterman.1530 said:

One possible "fix" for this would be to add to the Presence of the Keep trait:

• Cannot Stealth

So, once a thief, or any other class that can stealth, is within the range of Presence of the Keep, no Stealth is possible. 

No more perma stealth inside keeps. An exception might be made for stealth fields that let groups go invis for attacking/defending. Just not able to invidually stealth constantly.

Alternatively, the Presence of the Keep could be:

• Stealth can only be applied once every 60 seconds.

So, players get a debuff that lasts 60 seconds once they stealth.

Frankly I think that this mechanic should be in any objective, regardless of the trait or its level.  A basic, intrinsic part of every objective.

 

I don't think having a game mode mechanic specifically focused to target thieves is a good thing.

Because that idea even coming to your mind really shows that thief (and stealth itself) is in need of a rework.

[Terrorangel.1526]

What if there was a rune that applies "revealed" when striking an invisible foe?

 

If the rest of the stats are "bad" maybe it wouldn't be an auto include to many builds but still be a viable option for roamers. Celestial stats, some boon/condition duration and the last bonus would be to reveal every 30/45/60/90 seconds depending on how long the reveal lasts. To prevent whole zerks being revealed from a single attack maybe it can be capped at 1 enemy per proc?

 

Of course that has an impact on a mechanic that many professions rely on. I didn't think much about it. I just had this idea when I read someone complaining about not every (core) profession having an option to reveal at all.

[blp.3489]

This is an off the cuff idea but I think it would be nice if you immediately dropped out of combat and started regaining health as soon as your opponent used stealth.  The disengage shouldn't be a one way thing.  This would only apply if there are no unstealthed opponents.

[Dr Meta.3158]

18 minutes ago, Terrorangel.1526 said:

What if there was a rune that applies "revealed" when striking an invisible foe?

 

If the rest of the stats are "bad" maybe it wouldn't be an auto include to many builds but still be a viable option for roamers. Celestial stats, some boon/condition duration and the last bonus would be to reveal every 30/45/60/90 seconds depending on how long the reveal lasts. To prevent whole zerks being revealed from a single attack maybe it can be capped at 1 enemy per proc?

 

Of course that has an impact on a mechanic that many professions rely on. I didn't think much about it. I just had this idea when I read someone complaining about not every (core) profession having an option to reveal at all.

That would be like a rune allow you to ignore blocks. Its just another case of stealth needing to be reworked rather than the game itself bending to the stealth mechanic. 

10 minutes ago, blp.3489 said:

This is an off the cuff idea but I think it would be nice if you immediately dropped out of combat and started regaining health as soon as your opponent used stealth.  The disengage shouldn't be a one way thing.  This would only apply if there are no unstealthed opponents.

That's just crazy.

[kash.9213]

9 minutes ago, blp.3489 said:

This is an off the cuff idea but I think it would be nice if you immediately dropped out of combat and started regaining health as soon as your opponent used stealth.  The disengage shouldn't be a one way thing.  This would only apply if there are no unstealthed opponents.

What original mitigation would you take away from yourself, or are you just giving yourself extra? If that thief also gets your modifiers then that sounds good. That would actually be very helpful in large scale fights.

[Xenesis.6389]

9 minutes ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

That's just crazy.

Your signature is what's crazy tbh....

[cyberzombie.7348]

Do y'all just selectively ignore the skills that counter stealth?  I've explained at least a dozen times the numerous ways to counter it.  And literally the only class that doesn't have the means to hard counter it is ele. Which is long overdue for one. 

[SleepyBat.9034]

10 hours ago, Burial.1958 said:

Count his dodges.

3 dodges + energy sigils, fun.

[blp.3489]

34 minutes ago, cyberzombie.7348 said:

Do y'all just selectively ignore the skills that counter stealth?  I've explained at least a dozen times the numerous ways to counter it.  And literally the only class that doesn't have the means to hard counter it is ele. Which is long overdue for one. 

Can you provide a link to that?

[cyberzombie.7348]

This one should cover most of the possible strategies.

 https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/128239-stealth-rework-idea-1562/?do=findComment&comment=1860338

Edited March 15, 2023 by cyberzombie.7348

[Acemos.2856]

The epitome of roaming classes that has comparatively no good zerging/support options is outperforming other classes in roaming? Shocking. Some of the people in here really be thinking that specialized zerging builds should be able to go toe to toe with a specialized roaming build. People also just selectively ignore that target painters, watch towers, sentries, literal reveal areas, and reveal skills exist. 

[RazieL.5684]

23 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

Somone gaining Invulnerable is also like using invulnerability. Funny how mitigation works, like Stealth.

yeah i forgot that everyone uses invulnerability every 3 seconds practically endlessly... so far your points were bad, but with this i can't even take you seriously anymore...

[Doggie.3184]

A lot of things have reveal including NPCs, Traps and Towers that shutdown entire zone sections. It's actually really annoying. Also Dragonhunter needs renamed to Thiefhunter. And even Bunker builds can chunk 30-50% of a Thief's HP bar in a single hit as well and stealth doesn't prevent that if you aim it properly towards the direction they're heading. DPS builds can do 100% in one blow.

Invulnerability spam has no counterplay though. Wish I could build a trap/tower that prevents that.

Thief is also forced to be anti-social since they won't give us AoE builds or anything at all for group/zerg play. Fix that and maybe there'll be less roamers.

Edited March 15, 2023 by Doggie.3184