Is it time to give Engi a weapon swap?

[pbalint.1607]

Engineer desperately needs weapon swap:

-We lose a utility slot, just to equip a kit: other classes that have weapon swap switch weapons using a dedicated switch-button, engineers via a utility slot...

-We lose the flexibility of having 2 sets of sigils: While other classes can run 2 different sigils for weapon swaps (or the same set twice). Engineers can only get effects from a single set...

+Many of the toolkit skills are quite bad: slow hitting/melee/no flip skills/long cooldowns/long cast times

The more skills a class has available at any given time the more flexible (both build diversity *AND* adaptability) it is -which greatly contributes to fun- and opens up avenues for creative gameplay

Edited July 7, 2023 by pbalint.1607

[NotABandwagoner.9654]

Redacted

Edited February 15 by NotABandwagoner.9654

[Dawdler.8521]

4 hours ago, pbalint.1607 said:

-We lose the flexibility of having 2 sets of sigils: While other classes can run 2 different sigils for weapon swaps (or the same set twice). Engineers can only get effects from a single set...

You have a huge advantage in being able to use those sigils on cd though. 

Anyway, I still think the engineer "weaponswap" should be a mandatory kit.

Meaning, you equip say p/p/ft or rifle/nades.

This way it frees up one utility slot. Simple as that.

[Bomboed.5697]

5 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

You have a huge advantage in being able to use those sigils on cd though. 

Anyway, I still think the engineer "weaponswap" should be a mandatory kit.

Meaning, you equip say p/p/ft or rifle/nades.

This way it frees up one utility slot. Simple as that.

Yep. And Kit's toolbelt skills could be integrated into kits themselve or to be reworked into another set of utility skills to replace kits.

Edited July 7, 2023 by Bomboed.5697

[ProfCarson.7124]

If it means I don't have to use grenade kits on literally every dps build, then yes. For a class all about variety and building to fit the encounter, Engineer is forced to use the same skills for every build too often. 

[Luthan.5236]

I think it is about time. They did the first step - allowing to equip a 2nd weapon set. Now they should go further. Most other classes have the weapon swap as well. And with the upcoming new weapon there is more weapon variety. It is annoying to not be able to use more than one ... and having to only select one. I really like the rifle ... might switch to the short bow to try it and use one of both. But then again I'd prefer to havea melee weapon and the weapon master training also is nice - when I now can use the hammer on mechanist.

The "but they already can have a lot of weapon skills with kits" is not a good argument. Not like a few kit skills would make the engineer OP if also weapon swap was allowed. The skills still need to be used and are on cool down and you need also to swap into the kits.

The toolbelt is a class mechanics similar to for example Necro. Necro can also just go in shroud and is still allowed to use the 2nd weapon set. Also mechanist does not have the toolbelt.

I'd only focus on the kit thing. With mechanist and the other elite specs often having their own utility skill type I want to take as many as possible of them. Especially with the signets - they are nice. I do not want any kit.

The "allowing weapon swap in combat when no kit is equipped" would be the best option. I'd rather take a 2nd weapon in combat than a kit. Especially for the elite specs. For core maybe kits are more interesting and fun to play + also you get the elite toolbelt skill (instead of the class mechanics skill, elite toolbelt variant is disabled for all e-specs).

I need the rifle + some classic normal melee weapon and not having to use the toolkit thing as a normal melee weapon. Would be way more fun. (Though I got tooo used to the pull skill nowadays already. Nice to have a CC there and use it in a PvP environment lol.)

Don't want it implemented as a kit though - that way we'd have to give up on one utility slot which I do not want. Since I equip normal utility skills there and want to use all of them. (Maybe as an alternative option when you also include other of our kit skills but for someone not using any kit at all the normal weapon swap should be enabled.)

Edit: The cooldown seems to be the main issue. When the cooldown on a slot 1-5 skill is per weapon / kit and you can swap out of the kit (or to another weapon) and use the same slot again if that skill there is not on cooldown. Would mean lots of the usually good skills 4 and 5 and one more with the weapon swap allowed if someon also used kits. But no kits + weapon swap (they could implement a simple check on this since we already can only change utility slot skills out of combat) would work. When it goes into combat state where it now disables the weapon swap  on engineer it could check and if no kit is equipped it would leave it enabled.

Edit2: Would greatly disfavor kits then maybe. Though. The change to allow weapon swap when no kit is equipped technically would allow you to gain 1 more utility skill compared over a user using 1 kit. (That slot then used to enable the kit.) Allowing free weapon swap + kits equipped too OP.

They could allow that 1 more utility skill but also allow it for kit users ... with also allowing to equip kits as a 2nd weapon set. (1 kit free to use if you wanted more you'd have to use the utility slots.) The normal weapon swap again only if no kit is equipped. The downside would be that - if you wanted a certain toolbelt skill associated to the kit without actually wanting to use the kit a lot ... you'd have to equip that. Not being allowed to weapon swap and having to use the kit in an utiliy slot (not as a normal weapon in the 2nd weapon set).

Edited August 24, 2023 by Luthan.5236

[draxynnic.3719]

You're still benefiting from kits even if you don't have them. How, you ask? Because all other engineer utilities are designed to be competitive against kits - as a result, engineer utility skill slots (including the toolbelt skill as well) are more valuable than for most other professions. If you choose not to use one, it's because the utility skills you did take are more valuable to you than another weaponswap. If you've chosen a build with nothing that uses a weaponswap... don't use those sigils.

Now, there's definitely space for improvement - a lot of kits are outdated due to the prejudices of the old balance lead, turrets were all but destroyed in 2015 and never fixed, and there are probably other skills that could use an update. But just as elementalist traded weaponswap for attunements, engineer traded it for strong utilities. I could easily come up with justification for elementalist needing weaponswap more than engineers (mostly having to do with attunements not bringing nearly as much versatility as kits and other utilities can).

[Laughing Bat.1570]

Short answer: No

 

Long answer: Engineer doesn't need weapon swap, we need a utility/elite skill rework/balance update. 

 

Given ultimate authority, I'd probably replace the toolbelt skills with 2 selectable kits(picking a kit being like a ranger picking a pet) and rework the good toolbelt skills into a new set of utilities.

The Mechanist bar could easily be reworked into a kit, Holosmith already comes with a kit. I don't think it'd be too difficult to turn function gyro into a kit. Make the well, remote rez, etc... Each into individual skills. 

[Atmaweapon.7345]

6 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

You're still benefiting from kits even if you don't have them. How, you ask? Because all other engineer utilities are designed to be competitive against kits - as a result, engineer utility skill slots (including the toolbelt skill as well) are more valuable than for most other professions. If you choose not to use one, it's because the utility skills you did take are more valuable to you than another weaponswap. If you've chosen a build with nothing that uses a weaponswap... don't use those sigils.

Engineer utilities aren't balanced around kits, it's kits that are balanced around action time while Engineer utilities have been playing catchup for ages.

Take Rocket Kick vs. Firebomb on Bomb kit. Per use, both apply similar amounts of damage and Burning, but Rocket kick has twice the cooldown. Meanwhile Bomb kit also has Big-ol bomb and Concussion Bomb for damage.

As for Rocket Boots vs. Shadowstep? Shadowstep every time. Hell, Shift Signet would be taken over Rocket Boots even without a Toolbelt if utilities were also shared.

[draxynnic.3719]

15 minutes ago, Atmaweapon.7345 said:

Engineer utilities aren't balanced around kits, it's kits that are balanced around action time while Engineer utilities have been playing catchup for ages.

Take Rocket Kick vs. Firebomb on Bomb kit. Per use, both apply similar amounts of damage and Burning, but Rocket kick has twice the cooldown. Meanwhile Bomb kit also has Big-ol bomb and Concussion Bomb for damage.

As for Rocket Boots vs. Shadowstep? Shadowstep every time. Hell, Shift Signet would be taken over Rocket Boots even without a Toolbelt if utilities were also shared.

Yeah, mechanist signets are balanced to be competitive without toolbelt skills. 

For the other elite specs, though, I can think of quite a few skills where just the toolbelt skill or the regular skill is competitive against what other professions would have, and the engineer has the other skill as well. Shift Signet is so far ahead of utility-slot teleports on other professions it isn't funny - but this is justified because engineer is balanced around strong utility slots. Rocket Boots is mobility, removes mobility-reducing conditions, potentially does damage, and is a blast finisher on a 2 ammo, 16s charge recovery skill - many other professions would probably consider that to be a strong utility skill on its own without considering Rocket Kick as well. If you take Bomb Kit, you'll have more options for doing damage, but Rocket Boots and Kick give you both mobility and a high-damage skill on one utility slot.

The ability to essentially take a weapon swap, but without the normal weapon swap cooldown, is the most evident part of engineers having strong utility slots, but it's just the tip of the proverbial iceberg.

[EdwinLi.1284]

I think it would be better if they find a use for the Weapon Swap button as something else instead of switching Main Weapons. 

A future Elite Spec can use the Weapon Swap button for maybe a Elite Spec mechanic.

Heck, they could have used it as our button for Holosmith to activate Holoforge mode instead of F5 (or whatever button you assigned this to.)

Edited August 26, 2023 by EdwinLi.1284

[Shiyo.3578]

On 6/28/2023 at 3:15 PM, jason.1083 said:

No Ele shouldn't get a weapon swap, I know it sounds unfair, but Elementalists have access to 4 weapon skill bars with 0 compermises to their utility bar, for each weapon skill bar we give up 1 utility slot, to even out with Ele we need pretty much all our utilities as kits.

This is made up by the fact that half of elementalists weapon skills are trash on any given weapon and the fact they have the worst utilities in the entire game.

[Curennos.9307]

I'd rather anet dedicate some time to adjusting the kit skills. It feels like they 1) haven't changed in ages and 2) Are more 1/2 to 2/3 of a full 5 skill bar that haven't really kept up with the times.

[AlPower.2476]

2 hours ago, Curennos.9307 said:

I'd rather anet dedicate some time to adjusting the kit skills. It feels like they 1) haven't changed in ages and 2) Are more 1/2 to 2/3 of a full 5 skill bar that haven't really kept up with the times.

Their last kit update was: huge nerfs on toolkit (competitives) and slight buffs on elixir gun (meh, and was a "buff"  on elixirs more than kits)

 

[ShadowInTheVoid.9183]

Guardian has Tomes on Firebrand Spec

Warrior has Gunsaber on Bladesworn

Ranger has Celestial form on Druid

Thief has Shadow Shroud on Specter

Elementalists have 4 elements per weapon AND can Conjure Weapons

Necromancers have 3 types of Shrouds

At this point only Mesmer and and Revenant don't have some form of weapon kit.

 

So why is Engineer the only one that can't change weapon during combat?

 

If they're concerned about people swapping weapons too much to avoid weapon cooldowns then they should just make weapon cooldowns per slot.
Example, use skill 5 and it goes into a 20s cooldown, change weapon, you still have to wait 20s for that to recharge.
It would make it so much easier to balance damage around that and make Elementalist a far more accessible profession too. Everybody would win

[zeyeti.8347]

If engi gets a weapon swap so do ele will deserve one too , yes we have 20 weapons skills , and you think as healer or dps we use all of them ? weaver condi go earth and fire , thats 10 weapon skills who arent used (even more with 2x attunement) , healer maybe utilize 10 skills either you play staff or dagger/Scepter/warhorn , and don't forget engi has his toolbelt , thats 5 more skills to use , i know some of them are really not appealing and get no use depending of your utilitys ,

But if engi gets weapon swap , be sure to go to the nerf tribunal , same for ele , i can already see the 60k benchmark on the golem and the negative effect of the build would be "need to change keyboard and mouse every week".

28 minutes ago, ShadowInTheVoid.9183 said:

Guardian has Tomes on Firebrand Spec

Warrior has Gunsaber on Bladesworn

Ranger has Celestial form on Druid

Thief has Shadow Shroud on Specter

Elementalists have 4 elements per weapon AND can Conjure Weapons

Necromancers have 3 types of Shrouds

At this point only Mesmer and and Revenant don't have some form of weapon kit.

-Tomes have ammo + a cd , but yes thats basically 15 more skills , but you cannot use them as you wish without care.

-Gunsaber is your weapon swap as bladesworn you cannot properly swap to your 2nd weapon of choice , but yeah dragon slash is 3 same skills with different movement and 2 defensive skills.

-Agree on ranger while the avatar need to be charged and last 15 secs.

-Shadow shroud is 5 new skills , engi has toolbelt who is 5 skills you can choose (not the 5th if you play scrappy)

-Conjure weapons on ele .... the worst design of the game , no track of internal cooldowns , horrible to use ... and sovort and as i said if you play right you don't use half of your skills or attunement (except for hammer)

-Necro has 3 different type of shroud but can use only one , or else i can say engi has 40+ more toolbelt skills but he can also use only 5 (thats the same amount of skills btw)

-Rev have 5 more skills too , changing your legend change your healing , ult and 3 utilitys ... it's the base mechanic of the class , ... whatever.

-Mesmer has shatters , thats 5 skills .... and 2 more skills if you play mirage , dodging give you an ambush skills +- like thief going out of stealth.

 

Edited September 10, 2023 by zeyeti.8347

[ShadowInTheVoid.9183]

Just now, zeyeti.8347 said:

If engi gets a weapon swap so do ele will deserve one too , yes we have 20 weapons skills , and you think as healer or dps we use all of them ? weaver condi go earth and fire , thats 10 weapon skills who arent used (even more with 2x attunement) , healer maybe utilize 10 skills either you play staff or dagger/Scepter/warhorn , and don't forget engi has his toolbelt , thats 5 more skills to use , i know some of them are really not appealing and get no use depending of your utilitys ,

If all weapon skills had a shared cooldown then yes, give Ele's a weapon swap too. That would help make Ele's more accessible and give people more options. All good

[Drapoyo.8150]

Instead of weapon swap, I would like kits to be in F1-F4 slots. This leaves the skill slot for utility skills. 

[ShadowInTheVoid.9183]

12 minutes ago, Drapoyo.8150 said:

Instead of weapon swap, I would like kits to be in F1-F4 slots. This leaves the skill slot for utility skills. 

That would mean loosing toolbelt skills and by extension would mean no kits on mechanists. Not having to use utility skills for kits would help balance that.

 

My main issue with 0 weapon swap in combat is if you enter combat with the wrong weapon set equipped you could be stuck as ranged or melee when you want the opposite or may not be able to generate alacrity or quickness.
Always having 4 kits would solve the range issue but wouldn't solve the alac/quick issue.

Even just having the weapon swap on a longer cooldown (like 60s) would be something

 

[Zzik.5873]

Not reading all the other comment. But yeah I would love to have weapon swap on engi, thank.

[draxynnic.3719]

23 hours ago, ShadowInTheVoid.9183 said:

My main issue with 0 weapon swap in combat is if you enter combat with the wrong weapon set equipped you could be stuck as ranged or melee when you want the opposite or may not be able to generate alacrity or quickness.
Always having 4 kits would solve the range issue but wouldn't solve the alac/quick issue.

Apart from the alac/quick thing (although alacmech is fairly weapon-agnostic - mace helps but is hardly essential), elementalist has the same issue but they don't have the option to take kits to offset it. 

That's the problem with pointing at the 20 weapon skills (more on weaver...). As has already been stated, a lot of them aren't going to be useful to the specific build the elementalist player is running, unless it's celestial. Meanwhile, all of the elementalist weapons are either melee (dagger, sword, hammer) or ranged (staff, sceptre). Elementalists can't use their weaponswap to be able to have that option (ever), and taking a conjure is, at best, a temporary option, while an engineer can take a kit to smoothly switch between ranged and melee.

[rawisz.6439]

On 9/10/2023 at 10:19 AM, ShadowInTheVoid.9183 said:

Guardian has Tomes on Firebrand Spec

Warrior has Gunsaber on Bladesworn

Ranger has Celestial form on Druid

Thief has Shadow Shroud on Specter

Elementalists have 4 elements per weapon AND can Conjure Weapons

Necromancers have 3 types of Shrouds

At this point only Mesmer and and Revenant don't have some form of weapon kit.

And engineer have Photon Forge on Holosmith. Dont know why this mechanics on only 1elite spec per class would be any argument for adding weapon swap... Engineer was balanced around one weapon since release of game, if u dont like it then its probably not class for you.

[Obtena.7952]

On 6/28/2023 at 1:28 PM, Bomboed.5697 said:

Title says it all. With all new weapon options being open for core, is there any reason for not giving Engi a proper second weapon?

Probably that the original reason to not give Engi a proper second weapon is still relevant. I mean, how does getting new weapon options in the specs suddenly mean Engi should have this?

[pbalint.1607]

Because short bow is a 1 dimensional weapon, with almost no defensive abilities, further pigeonholing any engineer that takes it into doing 1 thing only and poorly...

[Yasai.3549]

On 7/7/2023 at 1:46 PM, pbalint.1607 said:

-We lose a utility slot, just to equip a kit: other classes that have weapon swap switch weapons using a dedicated switch-button, engineers via a utility slot...

Why do you think Toolbelt exists? Toolbelt exists not for you to have 10 utilities as Engineer, but because you have Kits taking up a utility slot, hence a Toolbelt to supplement the lack of flexible on-demand utility. 

 

On 7/7/2023 at 1:46 PM, pbalint.1607 said:

-We lose the flexibility of having 2 sets of sigils: While other classes can run 2 different sigils for weapon swaps (or the same set twice). Engineers can only get effects from a single set...

Oh man a sigil is so much more powerful than 5 additional skills. 

 

On 7/7/2023 at 1:46 PM, pbalint.1607 said:

+Many of the toolkit skills are quite bad: slow hitting/melee/no flip skills/long cooldowns/long cast times

Sounds like Kits need to be reworked, not Engineer literally stop being Engineer because the mechanic you're designed to play with doesn't suit your interest. 

On 7/7/2023 at 1:46 PM, pbalint.1607 said:

The more skills a class has available at any given time the more flexible (both build diversity *AND* adaptability)

Hope you're expecting some juicy nerfs to go along with that because it borders onto being OP if you have 15 skills at the ready and the ability to swap 5 out. I find it utterly hilarious that people give Revenant alot of kitten for having 10 utility skills but Engineer silently sitting here with 10 utilities (5 utility and 5 toolbelt) actually available at the same time and want a weapon swap so they can change weapons and enjoy 10 utilities. And all 10 utilities have individual cooldowns too! No flexibility! LOL! 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Yasai.3549