Secrets of the Obscure Balance Follow-Ups

[Vandal.5621]

8 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

?

Old scrapper also used function for quick. Mine is almost instant cast, why is it clunky? Now you do normal rotation for quick + hammer3. Blast gyro was never part of your normal dps rotation.

Hammer 3 is not dangerous. you can cancel it at any time and it does not leap through targets.

You absolutely did not need to use Function Gyro for Quickness. And yes, Blast Gyro was part of the rotation.

Hammer 3 is absolutely horrible as part of a rotation.

[Astralporing.1957]

On 9/12/2023 at 10:29 PM, anbujackson.9564 said:

They surely must have had an awful time, especially at HoT release right?

Yes. That's exactly what happened. A lot of players ended up quitting the game. We've never managed to get back up to those player numbers, by the way, because while some of those players did eventually return, most did not.

On 9/12/2023 at 10:29 PM, anbujackson.9564 said:

 I wonder how the people survived that and started to build the community for endgame content we have today.

Some people did built that subcommunity. The end result? Raids got cancelled as a content, because there were simply not enough players in that group. The only reason why Anet still considers doing harder content being worth their time is due to this subcommunity increasing in numbers thanks to IBS Strikes being far easier, and due to that power creep you dislike.

Edited September 14, 2023 by Astralporing.1957

[Gotejjeken.1267]

As far as PvE goes, there should be no 'overperforming' builds because it's PvE and they can creatively adjust mechanics to match the power creep.

Problem is game is too large for that at all levels, so you get things like Svanair Shaman (and other starter zone world bosses) being stupidly annoying to fight now because he they are just dmg sponges.  

Raids and to a lesser extent Fractals still seem fine from my limited perspective.  That is, the mechanics there cause people to fail enough that DPS really isn't an issue.

[SamuelW.2685]

"Oh god, they're gonna hate these patch note's, we've nerfed Ele and Thief  again, Necro is doing less then 40k on all of it's specs in our attempt to nerf Shroud, what do we do?"

"Let's cut out some of these changes and postpone them til the next patch, we can't afford to delay the patch, the backlash will be bad enough"

"No we HAVE to release it! Just don't give them the patch notes pre release like we've done for years, that way that have nothing to whine about!"

Right, I should be a little more serious, I don't think them not releasing the patch notes pre release is a good sign, why wouldn't they? The only other reason is that they're still working on it, but you think the patch would be finalised now and they're just bugfixing and optimizing and such, makes me think somethings gone wrong and they're delaying telling us til the last minute. 

Dark days are ahead of us, I'd prepare for the worst.
Or not even, for all I know this could be a great patch, though I doubt it tbh. 

Edited September 15, 2023 by SamuelW.2685

[Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267]

13 hours ago, SamuelW.2685 said:

Or not even, for all I know this could be a great patch, though I doubt it tbh. 

Oh I can promise you, it's not. They very moment they let elite spec weapons become useable for core, they effectively made it that much harder to balance their game. People asking for a sledgehammer approach for the nerfs don't even know what they're asking.

They're not going to balance with thought and planning. They're looking at the current meta, they're going to panic, and they're going to start nerfing stuff that doesn't even need to be nerfed. They're gonna nerf stuff like pistol and torch for scourge, and everything that synergies these two weapons, with total disregard of other weapon they could indirectly nerf.

I can't see them steering the balance in the right direction at this point. I think the damage is so catastrophic, that they can only mitigate that sinking ship before everything eventually falls apart.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267

[SolarDragon.7063]

3 hours ago, SamuelW.2685 said:

"Oh god, they're gonna hate these patch note's, we've nerfed Ele and Thief  again, Necro is doing less then 40k on all of it's specs in our attempt to nerf Shroud, what do we do?"

"Let's cut out some of these changes and postpone them til the next patch, we can't afford to delay the patch, the backlash will be bad enough"

"No we HAVE to release it! Just don't give them the patch notes pre release like we've done for years, that way that have nothing to whine about!"

Right, I should be a little more serious, I don't think them not releasing the patch notes pre release is a good sign, why wouldn't they? The only other reason is that they're still working on it, but you think the patch would be finalised now and they're just bugfixing and optimizing and such, makes me think somethings gone wrong and they're delaying telling us til the last minute. 

Dark days are ahead of us, I'd prepare for the worst.
Or not even, for all I know this could be a great patch, though I doubt it tbh. 

I mean, genuinely, kitten *everyone* should be doing less than 40k IMO, except maybe stuff like Weaver and Deadeye that are very difficult to play to that level.

But yes, no preview is not a good sign.

[Nephalem.8921]

16 hours ago, Vandal.5621 said:

You absolutely did not need to use Function Gyro for Quickness. And yes, Blast Gyro was part of the rotation.

Hammer 3 is absolutely horrible as part of a rotation.

Yes you absolutely needed to use function gyro for quickness because it gave aoe superspeed. Or you needed far more boon duration. You could do the same now aswell btw and just take more boon duration to skip function gyro. you would even need less overall boon duration to do that because new scrapper can generate more quick more easily because it does not need to take multiple gyros for that. 

Blast gyro is only really a part of quick scrap rotation because it was a well. dps scrap never used it. Why exactly is hammer 3 horrible? You can cancel it anytime and it is a double evade.

11 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

As far as PvE goes, there should be no 'overperforming' builds because it's PvE and they can creatively adjust mechanics to match the power creep.

Problem is game is too large for that at all levels, so you get things like Svanair Shaman (and other starter zone world bosses) being stupidly annoying to fight now because he they are just dmg sponges.  

Raids and to a lesser extent Fractals still seem fine from my limited perspective.  That is, the mechanics there cause people to fail enough that DPS really isn't an issue.

Raids and especially fractals are far from fine. Currently you can phase everything before mechanics happen without even trying in random pugs who do maybe 70% benchmark. Do them with peple who can press buttons and you have 1min dark ai and 5sec boss phases. Bosses are stationary doing nothing at this point.

[Kain Francois.4328]

Hello, ANET Balance Team!

Firstly I want to reiterate my previous post that I fully expect, and understand, you to nerf things that are more than justified being nerfed right now. (Looking at Scourge...)

What I wish to talk about right now is Greatsword on Herald.

Yes, it's a bit overpowered. But the "feel" of the weapon is so good that many of us are absolutely in love with it. It feels like the missing piece to Revenant that many of us have wanted for a very long time.

Thus', on behalf of Revenant players, my request is that if you do nerf Greatsword on Herald, you do not remove it from play completely, but only slightly shave it.

In addition, the Concentration bonus of Herald is also something that you should look into nerfing, since that is what enables so much Herald to be overpowered (as it allows us to fill the Quickness role without having to use boon gear, resulting in no tradeoff whatsoever.)

Anyway, the point is to express how much so many of us love Greatsword on Herald. We hope you will be delicate with the nerfs to it.

Here's a video by someone else about talking about it:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B49XoaaP5VQ

I look forward to seeing what you have in store for us on September 26th. Thank you!

Edited September 15, 2023 by Kain Francois.4328

[Gaiawolf.8261]

9 hours ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

They're not going to balance with thought and planning. They're looking at that the current meta, they're going to panic, and they're going to start nerfing stuff that doesn't even need to be nerfed. They're gonna nerf stuff like pistol and torch for scourge, and everything that synergies these two weapons, with total disregard

This has been my experience. Far too often they don't even bother with weapons. They just nerf entire profession mechanics or traits which trickle down to every weapon and build used by that spec, even off meta options that are already undertuned. 

[anbujackson.9564]

17 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes. That's exactly what happened. A lot of players ended up quitting the game. We've never managed to get back up to those player numbers, by the way, because while some of those players did eventually return, most did not.

Some people did built that subcommunity. The end result? Raids got cancelled as a content, because there were simply not enough players in that group. The only reason why Anet still considers doing harder content being worth their time is due to this subcommunity increasing in numbers thanks to IBS Strikes being far easier, and due to that power creep you dislike.

People also quit the game but the game got too easy but its true. An easy game is more accessible for the majority of players. Cant really deny that.

Well you can just keep making easy strikes. That doesnt mean that you have to keep increasing the power of the classes. And then tune your new content around a higher powerlevel while keeping old content untouched (just look at boss hp in new content and compare those numbers). 

The main issue I have is how well designed content with excellent ideas is not fun or engaging anymore. Even new players will reach this point quickly if this keeps happening.

[Burnfall.9573]

"A bad tree cannot bear good fruit" 

No amount of nerfing will resolve Bad Design and except healthy positive change in return. Without removing Bad Design including Stealth Mechanic, Thief Profession, Mesmer Profession, Elementalist Profession, Guardian Profession-Willbender, Thief Profession-Specter and Deadeye with including Guild Wars 2 Philosophy...

Removing control effects: Pull, Stun, Immobilize, Blind, Launch

Toxicity will continue to worsen to the players experiences and will continue to push players to keep walking away and keeping potential players from playing the game.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[Gaiawolf.8261]

5 hours ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

"A bad tree cannot bear good fruit" 

No amount of nerfing will resolve Bad Design and except healthy positive change in return. Without removing Bad Design including Stealth Mechanic, Thief Profession, Mesmer Profession, Elementalist Profession, Guardian Profession-Willbender, Thief Profession-Specter and Deadeye with including Guild Wars 2 Philosophy...

Removing control effects: Pull, Stun, Immobilize, Blind, Launch

Toxicity will continue to worsen to the players experiences and will continue to push players to keep walking away and keeping potential players from playing the game.

Huh. So you want to remove every deception- or mobility-based tactic in the game instead of learning counter tactics? Hmmm. Interesting proposal. Horrible idea but interesting nonetheless. 🤔

[Burnfall.9573]

2 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Huh. So you want to remove every deception- or mobility-based tactic in the game instead of learning counter tactics? Hmmm. Interesting proposal. Horrible idea but interesting nonetheless. 🤔

There is no counter to Bad Design

[Matoro.9708]

10 hours ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

People also quit the game but the game got too easy but its true. An easy game is more accessible for the majority of players. Cant really deny that.

Well you can just keep making easy strikes. That doesnt mean that you have to keep increasing the power of the classes. And then tune your new content around a higher powerlevel while keeping old content untouched (just look at boss hp in new content and compare those numbers). 

The main issue I have is how well designed content with excellent ideas is not fun or engaging anymore. Even new players will reach this point quickly if this keeps happening.

For the majority, yeah, you're right. But for people who don't enjoy fotm build swapping, and main stuff like core engi, the only content they can seriously participate in without being carried is open world. Period. 

The game is not going back to update older class skills to keep up with the power creep. Turrets, gadgets, core ranger pets, kits, to name a few, play like they still belong in 2012. 

There are two issues - modern specs are overperforming, and older stuff is underperforming. 

It really has two simple solutions. Buff core skills, gaining more build variety and accessibility, and nerf the cheesy fomo specs. 

[xellink.7568]

3 hours ago, Matoro.9708 said:

For the majority, yeah, you're right. But for people who don't enjoy fotm build swapping, and main stuff like core engi, the only content they can seriously participate in without being carried is open world. Period. 

The game is not going back to update older class skills to keep up with the power creep. Turrets, gadgets, core ranger pets, kits, to name a few, play like they still belong in 2012. 

There are two issues - modern specs are overperforming, and older stuff is underperforming. 

It really has two simple solutions. Buff core skills, gaining more build variety and accessibility, and nerf the cheesy fomo specs. 

That's one solution. I think we can just buff core unused weapons, first those that are unused in both modes.

[Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267]

5 hours ago, Matoro.9708 said:

gaining more build variety and accessibility, and nerf the cheesy fomo specs. 

Not to burst your bubbles, but Gaining more build variety and accessibility is what gave us this power creep in the first place. We wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the fact that Anet tried to give more build diversity by giving players the option to use elite spec to core weapons, which, obviously, had the opposite effect.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267

[draxynnic.3719]

@Nephalem.8921 Hammer 3 is forced movement. It no longer goes around the target (I think, don't use it often these days myself), but if you use it just as the target phases and becomes untargettable or something, you might be sent rocketing off a platform or something unpleasant like that.

Yes, it's cancellable, but that requires a keybind and quick reflexes. 

[Warrior.9487]

As a permanently suspended player, I would also like to comment on this @Cal Cohen.2358

You can ban my forum accounts, but you can't deny that you are doing an absolutely subterranean job.

Imagine you come to me as a patient and I would operate on you in this quality....

Objectively speaking, it disappoints me that you don't even ask for our opinion anymore.

In the past, however, you have also proven that you do not care at all. Therefore, I understand that you no longer ask.
I hope that the hard times in GW2 finally come to an end and you make an effort again.

I like to be surprised what you patch, but please not again this kitten as in the past. We have enough of it.

Please bring a balance for all classes, surpass yourselves once?
 

[Tammuz.7361]

On 9/11/2023 at 8:12 PM, Kain Francois.4328 said:

Sounds understandable. Thanks for the heads up!

Predictions:

- Ranger 1h Sword #2 and #3 Nerfs.

- Elementalist Warhorn Nerfs

- Rev GS Nerfs (though I would lament this one...)

- Pistol Scourge Nerfs

I also predict that the way some weapon damage will be controlled is by tying a damage modifier to their respective elite specs.

All that I ask is that if we're about to face a bunch of nerfs, that we get some fun new toys as a tradeoff. There are a lot of elite spec weapons that don't work well outside their original elite spec, and it would be fun to see new synergies. (Eg. Berserker's Torch having some kind of role on Spellbreaker and Bladesworn.)

 

 

"I also predict that the way some weapon damage will be controlled is by tying a damage modifier to their respective elite specs."

This would be a reasonable and good way to do it so they dont nuke the specs that arnt over performing and dont need a nerf right now.

[Matoro.9708]

On 9/15/2023 at 11:34 PM, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

Not to burst your bubbles, but Gaining more build variety and accessibility is what gave us this power creep in the first place. We wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the fact that Anet tried to give more build diversity by giving players the option to use elite spec to core weapons, which, obviously, had the opposite effect.

I suppose that's more a flaw in execution not philosophy, and that specific example didn't touch core skills at all. 

[Matoro.9708]

18 hours ago, Tammuz.7361 said:

"I also predict that the way some weapon damage will be controlled is by tying a damage modifier to their respective elite specs."

This would be a reasonable and good way to do it so they dont nuke the specs that arnt over performing and dont need a nerf right now.

Yeah, a lot of elite specs have minor traits that just straight up give +X% damage given some easily fulfilled condition. If the spec is overtuned, they don't get rid of that, they nerf the weapons, lol.

[Jski.6180]

I would love to see more relic updates (as well as more relics) so we can deal with the hand full that are build defining vs just the simple do more dmg under one effect or even has static elite and heal use to becoming more base off of cd of that heal / elite used (that and making it so you need 20 sec or even 5 sec before you unlock the next duration as nothing in the game is at 1 sec longer to do such things or the ability of player to make there cd longer to hit such added effects.)

 

[Thorus.9518]

First of all, great job with the expansion! 

The DPS meter in pvp is right now incredible high. It feels to me, that every class in pvp needs to be dmg reduced. It is not that one class is incredible overperforming, it is more that each and every class is able to oneshot. 

[Guy.9207]

Do we have any idea when the balance patch note will go up? I would like to hear what's to come in the next coming days.

[Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267]

On 9/18/2023 at 2:54 AM, Matoro.9708 said:

I suppose that's more a flaw in execution not philosophy, and that specific example didn't touch core skills at all. 

But how does buffing core skill even remotely fixes both the homogenization and powercreep issue? In fact, how do you even buff the core skills anyway? What's the plan there? Because you can't just randomly start buffing and nerfing stuff retroactively. It's what happening now, and Anet's balancing team just can't handle it.

The core skill isn't the problem, nor is the Meta builds you keep seeing. The problem is Anet's vision of giving everyone every tool in the game for the sake of diversity and variety. Every class now has access to quickness and alacrity, Each class now have access to their elite weapon spec. They make huge changes like these, and then they act surprised when every profession across the board can achieve 42k dps or higher.

I didn't touch core skills because it's irreverent. They have nothing to do as to why the balance is so kittened. It's Anet vision. It's not working. At all. Their vision only causes problems.

Edited September 19, 2023 by Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267