World Linking 9/29/2023

[Chaba.5410]

3 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

Nah you all really don't. That's why you get one person that says delete servers, but then another complaining about WR, ok to delete an entire community as long as it's not yours. Another one crying about not getting linked as a full server, while another one crying about having another language link. One crying about not having a link to carry their full server to t1, while half a dozen servers wish bandwagons hadn't wrecked theres.

The only common theme of what you want is being selfish and not thinking of others and their situations, you're ready to displace/delete entire communities not your own.

No one asked for WR, we're getting it because players are selfish, can't control themselves, always looking to stack advantages, bandwagoning cause "they bored", they can't control themselves so anet will do it for you. I don't care about EU, I'll go back to ignoring you all. the WR train is coming whether you like it or not.

You forgot crying about queues and PvE players filling them up.

[Hellbound.5610]

20 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Worlds are identified as a number in the database.  I bet there's a whole bunch of database procedures that also get skipped trying to run something like this...

You are getting caught in semantics and are missing the point completely. 

[Mabi black.1824]

22 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

The only common theme of what you want is being selfish and not thinking of others and their situations, you're ready to displace/delete entire communities not your own.

Well, I wrote it a few lines above, but it does not seem to have reached the other side of the Atlantic. I quote: '' If you feel embarrassed by which server to start, start from my '' you write a player 11 years in his server, but if you server this to solve 3 servers without a link in EU, start from mine. Zero problems. 

Otherwise, if you want to delete my server, to get wr, then I will tell you again to reconsider your location, and avoid that our mode is reduced to eotm 2.0

And with this I hope I have been clear in my two different positions in reference to two completely different topics. And this is the position of practically a large chunk of EU players.

22 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

I don't care about EU, I'll go back to ignoring you all

Well you accuse the players of UE of being selfish, while this quote of yours is definitely altruistic. I take note of that. And thanks for the contribution to fix something in EU that is definitely broken quite a bit. It is true that you have not tried 6 months of ''special'' treatment but it should not be so complicated to understand. 

Mind you, we can continue to turn a blind eye, or we can break WWW to get EOTM 2.0 in fact this is just a game, so do whatever you do. You just have to decide which part to stand. Do you want a game that grows towards its community of players? Or do you want a game that is decreasing towards its community of players? The choice is yours. It's always fine with me since it always remains a game.✌️

Edited October 3, 2023 by Mabi black.1824

[Nimafor.1756]

I don't understand what they use for link calculations, fsp only have big groups running for few hours / day, we're stuck in t5 permanently, and still they refuse to give us a link server over and over and over again, why?

 

They can't base it on total server numbers because i am certain they can separate pve and wvw in their calculation data.

[Daredevil.2745]

2 hours ago, Nimafor.1756 said:

and still they refuse to give us a link server over and over and over again, why?

Developers in Anet decided that players on your server don't deserve to play WvW like everyone else. Maybe 6 months of suffering will be enough and they will give you a link next time. Until then enjoy being outnumbered in the last tier.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Daredevil.2745

[RisingDawn.5796]

It sucks for FSP and everyone who wants to fight them open field, but at least they don't stop playing, most of them didn't transfer and most don't switch to playing alts. FSP, needs more population like WSR, although that would mean less quality open field over coverage, but surely somebody could organize things over there.

When you get stuck in T5 again, you might be forced to do something, because of the relinks.

Edited October 7, 2023 by CrimsonOneThree.5682

[Daredevil.2745]

The only thing comparable to the linking system in its current state is cheating. Both give huge advantage to one of the teams. I can't believe that smth like this was officially added to the pvp gamemode.

[Dinas Dragonbane.2978]

They could make a bold move and do what they did when linking was new. In NA we had some servers that were solo and some others were 3 servers linked.

What are the chances they could make these solo servers a 3rd link in the other tiers and drop t5?

Ofncourse then we would still have complaints but likely for the opposite reasons.

[Riba.3271]

14 hours ago, Nimafor.1756 said:

I don't understand what they use for link calculations, fsp only have big groups running for few hours / day, we're stuck in t5 permanently, and still they refuse to give us a link server over and over and over again, why?

It is because link servers are bigger than you think. While average link server in the past might have contributed 10% or so of the playerbase, now they account for probably almost 40%. The system just hasn't aged very well and is filled with problems.

Anyways, if you look at Guild Leaderboards at GW2mists, you will find more FSP guilds than any other server. FSP is just so active. You will notice that Oblivious Minds guilds Almost Harmless [AH] and Notorious Big [BiG] are big reason FSP has high activity and is unlinked whereas WSR is unlinked again because they have extremely active [QWOP] guild. I don't think they themselves mind being unlinked as they get to play on any map they want with whatever members they got.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Riba.3271

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, Riba.3271 said:

It is because link servers are bigger than you think. While average link server in the past might have contributed 10% or so of the playerbase, now they account for probably almost 40%. The system just hasn't aged very well and is filled with problems.

Anyways, if you look at Guild Leaderboards at GW2mists, you will find more FSP guilds than any other server. FSP is just so active. You will notice that Oblivious Minds guilds Almost Harmless [AH] and Notorious Big [BiG] are big reason FSP has high activity and is unlinked whereas WSR is unlinked again because they have extremely active [QWOP] guild. I don't think they themselves mind being unlinked as they get to play on any map they want with whatever members they got.

That page assume people are signed up because no, FSPG does not have 4 members. So its pretty useless for world size comparisons.

[Sonderm.4639]

On 10/7/2023 at 7:54 AM, Nimafor.1756 said:

I don't understand what they use for link calculations, fsp only have big groups running for few hours / day, we're stuck in t5 permanently, and still they refuse to give us a link server over and over and over again, why?

 

They can't base it on total server numbers because i am certain they can separate pve and wvw in their calculation data.

I am pretty sure they use something like hours played in WvW with a few modifications maybe and it is hard to deny that FSP has a lot of people who do play a lot - that other servers outnumber is a function of them having more players because of their link. A more interesting question would be whether that "activity" number alone is a good indicator of how a server fares unlinked, since the scoring system that forms the backbone of WvW doesn't really reward activity per se but mostly PPT activity. And while FSP do play a lot they do not PPT a lot, have no night crew and thus are bound to end up at the bottom of tier 5 eventually.

But while it is mind-boggling that ANet has relied for so many years on unlinking servers to balance population in EU, I guess there won't be any effort put into changing the current system before they get rid of servers with World Restructuring eventually.

 

[MarkBecks.6453]

On 9/29/2023 at 11:56 PM, CrimsonOneThree.5682 said:

Well we have been saying for 7 years, how this Linking system doesn't work well, but here we are still running this cycle, every two months.

It still continues to defy logic behind some of their links, although we know the fact their population algorithm, is not accurate enough to give balanced links.

You think they use an algorithm? surely that would be much better than the thumb suck and favoritism that's been happening especially on EU where servers consist of ALL languages, yet still going to follow that DE FR SP train.

[joneirikb.7506]

2 hours ago, MarkBecks.6453 said:

You think they use an algorithm? surely that would be much better than the thumb suck and favoritism that's been happening especially on EU where servers consist of ALL languages, yet still going to follow that DE FR SP train.

They've stated multiple times that they have and use an algorithm, that tries to match together as best as it can to reach a target number per server.

Problem is that if that target number is 2500:

A+B = 2000
C+D = 2500
E+F = 3000

And if that's the closest they can come to balance it, because the servers are just too big chunks of uneven distribution of player/hours. Then there isn't that much more they can do.

And then, the moment it's live, the players start transferring, and suddenly you instead got:

A+B = 1500
C+D = 2000
E+F = 4000

(Obviously made up numbers for example)

[XenesisII.1540]

50 minutes ago, joneirikb.7506 said:

They've stated multiple times that they have and use an algorithm, that tries to match together as best as it can to reach a target number per server.

Problem is that if that target number is 2500:

A+B = 2000
C+D = 2500
E+F = 3000

And if that's the closest they can come to balance it, because the servers are just too big chunks of uneven distribution of player/hours. Then there isn't that much more they can do.

And then, the moment it's live, the players start transferring, and suddenly you instead got:

A+B = 1500
C+D = 2000
E+F = 4000

(Obviously made up numbers for example)

Pretty much.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Transfers-Links-and-Population-Data/6664495

[Leaa.2943]

On 10/11/2023 at 4:34 PM, joneirikb.7506 said:

They've stated multiple times that they have and use an algorithm, that tries to match together as best as it can to reach a target number per server.

Problem is that if that target number is 2500:

A+B = 2000
C+D = 2500
E+F = 3000

And if that's the closest they can come to balance it, because the servers are just too big chunks of uneven distribution of player/hours. Then there isn't that much more they can do.

And then, the moment it's live, the players start transferring, and suddenly you instead got:

A+B = 1500
C+D = 2000
E+F = 4000

(Obviously made up numbers for example)

If this really was the case, then you tell me how that works with closing a server for a year without a link, where the very same server went on their knees, people quite, people got exhausted, outnumberd most of the time, Outside of prime you had 10 players against 2 blobs with 70 people in it. We where so exhausted and if 2 people decided i can not take it i am not logging in tonight, you actually felt the loss of those 2 people. 

How does this work with your set up?

[RisingDawn.5796]

On 9/29/2023 at 8:57 PM, Qpla.4729 said:

I mean WSR avoids capping objectives on purpose to farm KDR. They throw matchups intentionally so they can fall back to tier 4 and farm KDR against untagged randoms. The few dedicated active guilds on WSR could just transfer to any mid-tier server and pull it to tier 1 and fight even matchups, but an even fight is what they fear the most.

Yeah.. WSR is doing fine considering, they have no link.

FSP also managed to stay in T4 this week, but they prolly had to organize and had people having to tag up more often than usual, apart from the usual people you see in Gw2mists with the top kills. They did have a couple transfer ofd, but the problem with the system and the Algorithm, transfers and Alts, make it harder to track or adjust more accordingly, especially when it adjusts only once a week.

Edited October 15, 2023 by CrimsonOneThree.5682

[joneirikb.7506]

4 hours ago, Leaa.2943 said:

If this really was the case, then you tell me how that works with closing a server for a year without a link, where the very same server went on their knees, people quite, people got exhausted, outnumberd most of the time, Outside of prime you had 10 players against 2 blobs with 70 people in it. We where so exhausted and if 2 people decided i can not take it i am not logging in tonight, you actually felt the loss of those 2 people. 

How does this work with your set up?

Simple.

If server A has a population/activity of above X, it gets locked. Same as it has always been.

And if server A, B and C have the highest total population/activity, and they don't have any other servers to match with them, without making things even more insane. Then they get put solo. As has been the thing in EU for years now.

Example:

Server A = 2500 (full)
Server F = 2100
Server G = 1800

Then Server F+G would be paired (3900) and A be solo (2500).

Because the algorithm has calculated that any other combination, where server A gets a link, will end up even more wrongly skewed population. Either with Server A+link starting to hit 4000+ for example, or that it would have to link 3 smaller servers which each might be around 1500 into a 4500 population beast stuck with queues constantly (As we've seen in NA early in linking, to massive negative feedback).

The problem, as it always has been, is that servers are too big chunks to properly be divided around with the linking system. And EU unfortunately has 3 more chunks than can evenly be distributed. And too many things (server pride/stacking) are too entrenched in the WvW community for any other fix than World-Restructure at this point.

Edited October 13, 2023 by joneirikb.7506

[Chaba.5410]

4 hours ago, Leaa.2943 said:

If this really was the case, then you tell me how that works with closing a server for a year without a link, where the very same server went on their knees, people quite, people got exhausted, outnumberd most of the time, Outside of prime you had 10 players against 2 blobs with 70 people in it. We where so exhausted and if 2 people decided i can not take it i am not logging in tonight, you actually felt the loss of those 2 people. 

How does this work with your set up?

Ten players playing seven hours each is functionally the same as 70 players playing one hour each.  When you play seven hours, you are impacting the score and gaining pips/wxp rank/etc. more than if you only play one hour.

The hours are averaged over something like 3-4 weeks so it's difficult to quit playing completely one day and have that reflected in the average the next day or even the next week - a sort of mechanism against players gaming the population system.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[Dopamine.6324]

On 9/29/2023 at 10:57 PM, Qpla.4729 said:

I mean WSR avoids capping objectives on purpose to farm KDR. They throw matchups intentionally so they can fall back to tier 4 and farm KDR against untagged randoms. The few dedicated active guilds on WSR could just transfer to any mid-tier server and pull it to tier 1 and fight even matchups, but an even fight is what they fear the most.

seems like by some miracle wsr got into T1 and by looking reset stats looks similar to T4

[Junkpile.7439]

1 hour ago, Dopamine.6324 said:

seems like by some miracle wsr got into T1 and by looking reset stats looks similar to T4

Yes. They blob in eb against pugs and keep other maps empty like always. This way they drop tiers.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Junkpile.7439

[IndigoSundown.5419]

So, there's 6 relinks a year.  Over the last year, YB has gotten TC twice, Mag twice, plus DH and JQ once each.  Are those the only servers in NA?  Oh, wait, no, they're not.  We just don't get linked with the rest.  Why link the same servers more than once a year?  What are the flaming criteria ANet is using?  Why do they keep those criteria secret?

[Dopamine.6324]

On 10/14/2023 at 12:29 AM, Junkpile.7439 said:

Yes. They blob in eb against pugs and keep other maps empty like always. This way they drop tiers.

thanks for detailed guide on how to drop tiers, but cant find one person who asked

[Boh.4568]

On 10/13/2023 at 10:04 PM, Dopamine.6324 said:

seems like by some miracle wsr got into T1 and by looking reset stats looks similar to T4

T1 right now is terrible. You have WSR and FoW fighting each other only in EB disregarding other maps, so Gandara can PPT all borders and win the matchup despite having a KDR of 0.5.

WSR has high kills and low deaths because of their saturday/sunday morning PPK trains where the usual 2 guilds gear up as if it was a GVG world championship and spend the day farming pugs. Then during the week they switch to FoW-style cloud clowning.

FoW has high kills and high deaths because they throw pug bodies at the WSR blob during the early weekend, and then in the peak hours during the evening and during the weekdays they wake up and eat up all the maps while the other servers stop playing.

[disForm.2837]

On 10/13/2023 at 7:02 PM, IndigoSundown.5419 said:

So, there's 6 relinks a year.  Over the last year, YB has gotten TC twice, Mag twice, plus DH and JQ once each.  Are those the only servers in NA?  Oh, wait, no, they're not.  We just don't get linked with the rest.  Why link the same servers more than once a year?  What are the flaming criteria ANet is using?  Why do they keep those criteria secret?

There's only certain amount of viable combinations. YB is a small server, you can't link it with another small or even a medium server because you'd be overrun by everyone else. 

Same logic applies for big servers, you will never see Mag linked with other full servers, that would be insane.

Mid sized servers are the ones that see more variety, sometimes host, sometimes link.

Your server link "pool" only changes if enough players move in or out.