Maybe it's time for a Mystic Clover revamp.

[Rauderi.8706]

Insert economic gripes here. tldr - Coins and RNG are an awful way to make players pay out for legendary and other materials. 

A roughly 30% chance is awful. Boost it to at least 50%.  

Make the failure rewards worth it. Obsidian shards? Remove. Mystic coin? 10x the return. T5/6 materials? At least 5 by the handful. Random rewards need to be above the value of a guaranteed result, or it's going to feel like a rip. 

Even the "guaranteed" methods are terrible. Grind instanced content for the right to buy Clovers, at a worse result than flushing the toilet? How is that even a reward? And how does that "fix" the actual problem, aside from kicking the can down the road instead of doing a tiny bit of work to update the drop table? 

Nevermind the lack of a pity counter of any kind. Every failure should drop a Mystic Cloverleaf; get 4 and stick 'em together for a Mystic Clover. 

There are good, player-friendly, low-intensity solutions, but they're not being developed. 

[Farohna.6247]

I acquire mine from WvW reward tracks and the Wizard's Vault.  *Shrug* I'm glad they've added multiple ways to acquire them, not just the mystic toilet horrid lucky conversion.

[Ashen.2907]

4 minutes ago, Farohna.6247 said:

I acquire mine from WvW reward tracks and the Wizard's Vault.  *Shrug* I'm glad they've added multiple ways to acquire them, not just the mystic toilet horrid lucky conversion.

That is me as well. I do feel for those pursuing other methods.

[Danikat.8537]

If you're making them in the Mystic Forge it's a good idea to do it as early in the process of making a legendary as you can, because a lot of the other items you can get are also used to make legendaries, so even if they're not the thing you were hoping for they're still useful.

[SuavePuppy.2809]

If you had said "Mystic Clovers should have a guaranteed crafting recipe, even if that ends up being just as expensive as the gambling method, in order to remove the awful feeling when the gambling doesn't go your way", I would understand your point. 

But other than that, with the drop rate, the math worths out to roughly 1 stack of mystic coins needed to get 77 clovers, which I can only imagine is intentional. I guess they could increase the drop rate while also increasing the amount of materials needed to flush in order to keep Clovers at the same value, but I don't think that would go over well with most players. And by gambling, you get some of that gold back. The idea that what you get back should be worth more than the guaranteed result is something I just don't agree with. Why would that be the case?And I'm not sure I understand the complaints about buying them through other means - they are guaranteed this way.

[Linken.6345]

Just now, SuavePuppy.2809 said:

If you had said "Mystic Clovers should have a guaranteed crafting recipe, even if that ends up being just as expensive as the gambling method, in order to remove the awful feeling when the gambling doesn't go your way", I would understand your point. 

But other than that, with the drop rate, the math worths out to roughly 1 stack of mystic coins needed to get 77 clovers, which I can only imagine is intentional. I guess they could increase the drop rate while also increasing the amount of materials needed to flush in order to keep Clovers at the same value, but I don't think that would go over well with most players. And by gambling, you get some of that gold back. The idea that what you get back should be worth more than the guaranteed result is something I just don't agree with. Why would that be the case?And I'm not sure I understand the complaints about buying them through other means - they are guaranteed this way.

OP clearly want a money generating way to get clover so either a they get a clover or b they get more gold to spend on trying to get a clover.

So there would be no gambling anymore only away to aquire more wealth and after awhile everyone would curse when they got clovers because that is account bound and hence worthless.

[Omega.6801]

Just give everything out for free. We already paid for the game, can't expect us to also play it for the things in the game. /s

[Dawdler.8521]

42 minutes ago, Omega.6801 said:

Just give everything out for free.

Mystic clovers is free yet people don’t even want that, they prefer to craft for some reason.

[Cuks.8241]

This is not a MC revamp, this is just plain making it cheaper. I dont think they need to be cheaper.

The more various content you play, the more MC you will have as each mode has cheap but limited acquisition method. Or you pay up.

[WRay.2391]

I think by adding WV Anet actually wanted to make MC more expensive, there were multiple threads on that. I don't think this will change any time soon. You can get clovers in Wizard tower without gambling btw, but statistically it will be more expensive than Mystic forge.

[Cyninja.2954]

20 hours ago, Rauderi.8706 said:

Insert economic gripes here. tldr - Coins and RNG are an awful way to make players pay out for legendary and other materials. 

A roughly 30% chance is awful. Boost it to at least 50%.  

Make the failure rewards worth it. Obsidian shards? Remove. Mystic coin? 10x the return. T5/6 materials? At least 5 by the handful. Random rewards need to be above the value of a guaranteed result, or it's going to feel like a rip. 

You do understand that if the random rewards increases, so does the cost of the ingredients, thus eventually evening out again?

Imagine a world where the non clover reward equals the clover in value or even exceeds it. Now imagine how this would affect player behavior and motivation.

20 hours ago, Rauderi.8706 said:

Even the "guaranteed" methods are terrible. Grind instanced content for the right to buy Clovers, at a worse result than flushing the toilet? How is that even a reward? And how does that "fix" the actual problem, aside from kicking the can down the road instead of doing a tiny bit of work to update the drop table? 

The result isn't "worse". It's a bit more costly than the average result, a lot more costly then a lucky streak and far cheaper than an unlucky streak. It solves the issue of having to struggle with rng for players who desire such a result .

What it doesn't do is make things cheaper, which seems to be your intent.

Edited November 18, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Ashen.2907]

6 hours ago, Danikat.8537 said:

If you're making them in the Mystic Forge it's a good idea to do it as early in the process of making a legendary as you can, because a lot of the other items you can get are also used to make legendaries, so even if they're not the thing you were hoping for they're still useful.

This.

Especially if you think you might need to buy t6 mats.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

I have so many clovers from just playing. I dont even bother getting more.

[TheNurgle.4825]

Instead of this I would like to see some rework of cost of leggy weapons. Each generation of weapons have different cost and some are just better value than others.

[Lucy.3728]

They are way easier to get now than from before SotO.

You can buy a limited amount in wvw that resets weekly, you can trade the aa for clovers. You don't even need to own SotO for that.

I disliked the throwing mats in the mystic toilet too, when I built my first legendary armor, but Anet already added other ways now.

Is there a way when people will finally be pleased? Or does is not matter what Anet changes, the complains will still pop up?

Edited November 18, 2023 by Lucy.3728

[Sobx.1758]

Nah, there's enough ways to get them. If you're not aware of them, check the wiki.

[Rauderi.8706]

Reward tracks don't count, by the way. The gold/hour in WvW and PvP is definitely a net loss, lol. Also, WvW? I'd rather do interesting stuff. Bad enough Gift of Battle isn't a tradeable item, though it should be. 

And again, paying more (3x the cost of a gamble plus additional Ecto) and getting less (Only one Clover and zero random materials) is absolutely a ripoff. May as well just take the coffer approach to make adjusting the drop tables easier and the 10-pull less of a problem. 

If we're being fully honest, gotta ask if there's anyone in the EU sect that can sic some lawyers on all the gambling the devs are trying to get us to do, lol: Clovers, Sandstorm, BLACK LION chests. But man, white knights will just let anything fly. 

[DeanBB.4268]

I buy 10/week from the mystic forge attendant and buy the ones in the WV. Seems to generate enough for me.

[Cyninja.2954]

2 hours ago, Rauderi.8706 said:

Reward tracks don't count, by the way. The gold/hour in WvW and PvP is definitely a net loss, lol. Also, WvW? I'd rather do interesting stuff. Bad enough Gift of Battle isn't a tradeable item, though it should be.

Are you going by hear say, or have you actually checked the gold/hour? Ever since the revamp the gold/hour in WvW and PvP is far better than random open world stuff and can rival medium open world farms. That is a far better deal for players which enjoy those modes than farming open world content. Now if you do not ejoy WvW or Spvp, then obviously you are free to farm the most lucrative open world farms non stop.

Quote

And again, paying more (3x the cost of a gamble plus additional Ecto) and getting less (Only one Clover and zero random materials) is absolutely a ripoff. May as well just take the coffer approach to make adjusting the drop tables easier and the 10-pull less of a problem. 

Let's do some basic math:

1 Clover via rng costs on average: 18 p.stones (aprox 2 spirit shards, at 25s each that is 50s) + 3 Mystic Coins (at 1.5g each, 4.5g) + 3 Ecto (at 25s each, 75s) + 3 Obi shards

Net result: 0.50+4.5+0.75 = 5.75g - (what ever you get as failure reward). The most lucrative non clover reward you can get is 5 Mystic Coins (7.5g) while the one with least gold value is obi shards 0g. (7.5+0)/2= 3..75. So a clover will cost you on average 5.75-3.7.5=2g

Now this is a VERY generous calculation because getting Mystic Coins is not a 50% chance and getting something in return which is less than 4g total for 3 tries applies to pretty much any roll which is not a Mystic Coin.  For example, even the 2nd best roll, T6 Blood, will roll on average between 3g (2 T6 Blood rewarded 3 times at 50s each) and max 6g (4 T6 Blood), down 1.5g from Mystic Coins. So the actual cost per clover ON AVERAGE will be significantly higher.

The math for the non rng method is simple:

2 Spirit Shards (50s) + 2 Mystic Coins (3g) + 2 Ecto (50s) + X

X being something like Magnetite Shards, which currently value at around 4s per shard, or non gold convertible resource

Net result: 4g+X

So, on average, you will be slightly better off with using the rng method IF you are averaging clover rewards and getting good non clover rewards. If you get a lucky streak, rng wins out. If you get an unlucky streak, well then you lose on average 1+ gold per try.

Quote

If we're being fully honest, gotta ask if there's anyone in the EU sect that can sic some lawyers on all the gambling the devs are trying to get us to do, lol: Clovers, Sandstorm, BLACK LION chests. But man, white knights will just let anything fly. 

If you bothered to read up on gambling regulations, you would soon realize that most countries define gambling as having 2 requirements:

1. the ability to cash out

2. the dependency on "real money"

so good luck with that hope. That said, should the clover recipe get removed, my guess is we would simple get more non rng methods added, which is a win for all players which already enjoy using the non rng methods.

TL;DR:

You are not the first to complain about clovers. You won't be the last. The system works for what it is intended to do (drain resources) and unlike the past you get options to circumvent the rng nature of the mystic forge.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Cyninja.2954]

13 minutes ago, Efar.8153 said:

yeah.. for leggies we need mystic coins AND mystic clovers. to get mystic clovers you must sacrifice some mystic coins (almost 1g70 s) plus other expensive materials in gambling.

as i see it, this is very profitable for arenanet, because ppl will buy more gold.

and with the new double weapon update(double mace, double pistol, double sword), ppl will be more inclined to get  another leggie, or at least one.

it is very clear that the game no longer focuses on player experience, is more profit at a very  very low investment(recycled flashy spells, faded dull maps, annoying boss mechanics, weapons 10 times the size of the character - gw2 is becoming just a copy of every other mmo on the market 😐 )

The most expensive legendary items where and still remain the gen2/gen2.5 legendaries which where introduced as far back as HoT requiring both Clovers and mystic coins in large amounts. Did you consider this in your rant, given HoT is many years back?

Newer legendary items in fact cost less clovers (half for gen3) most of the time and have no additional (or far less) mystic coin requirements. Was that considered too?

Edited November 19, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Cyninja.2954]

1 minute ago, Efar.8153 said:

why so serious?

it is not a rant btw.

Not serious, you started making claims which I did not understand in the context of what the developers have been doing, so I thought I'd ask how you came up with your opinion?

[kiroho.4738]

On 11/17/2023 at 11:30 PM, Rauderi.8706 said:

A roughly 30% chance is awful. Boost it to at least 50%.  

It would still be random. And tbh, if it was 50% by default, I bet you would think the same as now and demand 70 or 100%.

 

On 11/17/2023 at 11:30 PM, Rauderi.8706 said:

Even the "guaranteed" methods are terrible. Grind instanced content for the right to buy Clovers

You can buy an unlimited amount of Clover from Lyhr.
No instanced content needed. The price is even cheaper than what you (statistically) pay when using Mystic Forge.

So yeah, Soto already solved your problem.

[kiroho.4738]

3 hours ago, Rauderi.8706 said:

Reward tracks don't count, by the way. The gold/hour in WvW and PvP is definitely a net loss, lol.

By that logic everything except the one most profitable farm method is a net loss.
Ofcourse that logic doesn't make sense, as people simply don't want to play one that one most profitable farm method. They want to play the game and what they enjoy.
And when you enjoy playing PvP/WvW, getting MCs passively is much more worth that forcing yourself into whatever farm method that is "more profitable".

Tldr: The game is about fun/enjoynment, not about profit.

[Lucy.3728]

4 hours ago, Rauderi.8706 said:

Reward tracks don't count, by the way.

Why do they not count?

4 hours ago, Rauderi.8706 said:

The gold/hour in WvW and PvP is definitely a net loss, lol.

I don't know what generates the gold there, I don't pay attention to it because I play for fun and not for money like you seem to do, but I can't complain. I play for fun and get enough gold to buy things, even waste it in skins. My leg. armor is from wvw. My leg. weapons are ones where you can buy the parts in the tp (including pre).... from wvw money.

And while I play what I enjoy, everything else is done along the way, with no extra effort (often via tracks, the rest from rewards for playing) or anything that feels like grinding, farming, or a chore. (With one exception... getting all the shrines/ruins for the week. That's boring: step into a circle, wait until it's full, step out of it, wait until it's empty, step in, wait until it's full... and keep doing it until you've done it 10 times and expect to be attacked while doing it)

What other mode offers that?
Doing everything in the background while you play for fun?
Of course you need to have fun. If you enjoy working in a game to reach a certain minimum amount of gold/hour, then keep doing it. I have a job for work. I play games for fun. I think wvw is good balanced in that, I don't miss making more gold.