Players are being given 72 hours bans for unlocking waypoints for another player/account with turtle.

[Sobx.1758]

23 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

My point is simple: if someone is doing something that is questionable use of mechanics to get some unintended result

And the point is: this is not a "questionable use of mechanics" when the mount intentionally ports the passenger of the mount with the turtle owner.

Edited December 3, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Ashen.2907]

46 minutes ago, BjorJlen.9674 said:

define the term "exploiting mechanic's

Apparently using game systems as designed, as implemented, as explained by the company, as demonstrated by the company as being ok, is an exploit. 

[BjorJlen.9674]

Just now, Ashen.2907 said:

Apparently using game systems as designed, as implemented, as explained by the company, as demonstrated by the company as being ok, is an exploit. 

lol... 🙂   

Boy I hope not! I certainly don't want to get in trouble for using my Griffin to get somewhere, only to slam into a tree by pilot error... 😉
 

P.S: Stupid Tree... 😛
 

[TexZero.7910]

21 hours ago, Neo K.9145 said:

Reddit thread about this: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/18996r1/psa_using_turtle_to_unlock_waypoints_with_two/

I'm a mod at the subreddit

...and you likely shouldn't be if your reaction to "OMG Banned no Raisens" is to believe it and to bandwaggon behind it.

 

[Elden Arnaas.4870]

Here's what I think happened:

When Anet staff were developing the concept/functionality of the Siege Turtle and it was decided that it would *not* drop the passenger when way pointing, someone pointed out "If we don't drop the passenger on way pointing, this could be abused."

Then someone else replied "If we drop the passenger on way pointing, it will interfere with gameplay.  And a major point of the turtle is to carry a passenger."  

Then management said "It certainly has the potential to be abused.  But this is an exciting new feature of the expansion that we don't want to nerf yet.  So let's see how it goes.  And if it becomes a problem, we'll deal with it at that time."

Right after the release of EoD, a kind Anet employee is taxiing players around unlocking way points for them.  This *looks* like an endorsement, but really it's just an employee excitedly demoing a new feature.  And using a turtle to taxi players to unlock way points isn't specifically considered abuse yet.(it's too new)

Much later Anet run software to detect certain types of abuse (including teleporting) and it flags turtle passenger way pointing as offending behavior.  Either the software hasn't been updated for the Siege Turtle and Tea Chair, or player behavior is setting it off.

If a player taxis another player to one or two way points within a few minutes of each other as a natural part of game play, this probably *wouldn't* be considered abuse.  But if the pilot taxis the passenger systematically to multiple way points in succession, without engaging an any other type of game play in between, I'd bet that would get flagged as abuse - by the software, or a moderator reviewing the software's findings.

If your turtle porting was just a natural part of game play, I'd appeal and explain what happened.  They may need to adjust the detection software's parameters regarding teleporting, or inform moderators how this is to be handled.  But if you were just spamming way point unlocks, I don't think you'll get an appeal.  

[ugrakarma.9416]

@Obtena.7952 is fully right there.

 

Also why ppl so much enraged by that? why they need too fast WP completion? 

Too me seems someone is selling "world travel" and is afraid their bussness shut down.

 

[AlenaVolkova.8179]

So, those who are nailed actually are using 2 accounts on same machine, case closed.

[AlenaVolkova.8179]

So, those who are nailed actually are using 2 accounts on same machine, case closed.

[Elden Arnaas.4870]

*All* the players banned were using two accounts?  If so, that could explain it.  That could be considered questionable. *If* all the bans were single turtle, two accounts . 

Players take heed - don't blatantly use one account to help another.  This might also appear to be a thing when one person in a household helps a different person in the same house.  I'd say there probably isn't a good solution for this.  If the software sees two accounts logged in for the same place, it might look like abuse, when it's just one family member helping another

They ought to make an announcement about this , but they won't.  They never give details about exp- erm... misbehavior.   

[Tanek.5983]

Ok, this just sounds strange to me. Even if players are doing this they'd be what? Saving another player 10 or 20 minutes running around a zone? Just getting the waypoints isn't nearly "zone completion".

I agree we need an official ANet stance on this if it is a problem.

The other day I was helping someone with a skyscale collection. At one point they fell off a cliff and had difficulty finding a way back. I popped a jade waypoint, went down the cliff, had them mount on the turtle, and took the waypoint back up. Am I a...*gasp*...criminal now?

What about all the mesmers who have been shortcutting jumping puzzles with portals? 

It really feels like something else must be going on here.

[Peregrine Falcon.5496]

About a month ago a friend of mine created a new character and we've been playing together. My character has total world completion, his does not.

Over the last month I've used my Turtle to unlock a dozen or so way points for him, and we've used teleport to friend to get him to certain zones and to the end of a couple of jumping puzzles. I've done this for several people since I first got my Siege Turtle over 2 years ago and I've never been banned from the game. But I've also never jumped between multiple way points within seconds, nor to used it to get points of interest or zone completion.

So it seems that if you're just playing the game and helping a friend that you're not going to get banned. Jump to every way point on the map within minutes and you just might.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Peregrine Falcon.5496
Typo

[Glacial.9516]

11 minutes ago, Tanek.5983 said:

What about all the mesmers who have been shortcutting jumping puzzles with portals? 

Exactly. With Portals and Teleport to friend in the game it's hard to imagine that "Turtle-porting" would be problematic or discouraged behavior. It's more likely a case of some cheating detection gone horribly wrong and flagging false-positives.

49 minutes ago, AlenaVolkova.8179 said:

So, those who are nailed actually are using 2 accounts on same machine, case closed.

From the reddit thread it sounds like many of those affected were not using one device for two accounts but were in fact two different people using two different accounts. However even if this was the case, running two clients on one machine is not an actionable offense per the multi-boxing policy provided that you are controlling each account individually.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Glacial.9516

[Elden Arnaas.4870]

When the group I game with started SoTO, we went around the maps using TP to friend to help each other out.  It wasn't one person systematically taxiing the others to various points in the map- we were just playing naturally helping each other as we explored the maps.  We were just playing the game.  I think that when you make a systematic effort to unlock way points(or anything else) it crosses the line and becomes an offense.  Or maybe their detection software needs to be updated/retrained.  We'll probably never know as they're pretty tight-lipped about this sort of thing.

I'll continue to play the game using various teleports in a way that's natural to playing the game  But I'll never sell or give away map clears for waypoints/hero points/whatever.  I try to avoid trouble.

 

 

[Tanek.5983]

11 minutes ago, Elden Arnaas.4870 said:

 I think that when you make a systematic effort to unlock way points(or anything else) it crosses the line and becomes an offense.

I guess my question is...why would this be a problem? Bringing someone to every waypoint in a zone is hardly finishing everything for them. Unlocking waypoints is not skipping any riveting gameplay (then again, this is company that made rifts the central feature of an expansion, so...ok, maybe it would qualify 😛).

I mean, HoT hero point trains would count as a "systematic effort to unlock" map points.

[Arianth Moonlight.6453]

so, using the turtle (that you have to pay for) can get you banned, but using speed hacks (which I assume are free) in WvW won't?
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charming.

[Neferpitouh.4356]

It is kinda funny how the discussion took a turn into how turtle taxiing is a bad thing when there is an item on the cash shop that unlocks all the WPs with just 1 click.

Paying 20$ to 30$ to get them all in 1 click = Okay

Spending a few hours on using a mount (or a chair) that is hard gated behind $ to unlock = Not okay

Smh some people...

Edited December 4, 2023 by Neferpitouh.4356

[Elden Arnaas.4870]

HoT hero point trains are players being lead by another player/other players.  They just guide you around and help you know what to do and where to go in a fairly efficient way.  There are almost always mesmer portals at difficult to reach places.  You aren't doing it for  them, you're helping them do it.

One of the guilds I'm in used to do map clears.(minus hearts)  We didn't do anything for anyone, we just guided them and helped them get around.  Taught them where to go, helped them through dangerous areas, and portaled them to difficult to reach places.  we did this for several years, and no one got actioned for it.  Because( and this is subjective) we were just playing the game.  If we had told everyone to stand in one place and let them use TP to friend for each location, that may have been arbitrated differently.  Memer portals exist, TP to friend exists, mounts exist, Siege Turtle way pointing exists.  Each of these things can be used properly, or abused.  And it's totally subjective, and Anet will never give us the details, because that would help people fine tune misbehavior to avoid detection.

We can see some evidence of what Anet considers over the line, though.  Mesmer portals are not blocked anywhere in the open world(that I know of)  Yet there are no mount zones and invisible walls around certain jumping puzzles.  Now Anet is banning for turtle portalling under certain circumstances.  It would be nice to  get some sort of clarification on the turtle portalling, but that is only going to be in second, third, etc... hand information.  So this will may remain unresolved.

Neferpitouh.4356 has just raised an interesting point. This could be viewed an infringing on gem store WP unlocks.  That would be sad, but might actually be true.

[Tanek.5983]

2 minutes ago, Elden Arnaas.4870 said:

HoT hero point trains are players being lead by another player/other players.  They just guide you around and help you know what to do and where to go in a fairly efficient way.  There are almost always mesmer portals at difficult to reach places.  You aren't doing it for  them, you're helping them do it.

One of the guilds I'm in used to do map clears.(minus hearts)  We didn't do anything for anyone, we just guided them and helped them get around.  Taught them where to go, helped them through dangerous areas, and portaled them to difficult to reach places.  we did this for several years, and no one got actioned for it.  Because( and this is subjective) we were just playing the game.  If we had told everyone to stand in one place and let them use TP to friend for each location, that may have been arbitrated differently.  Memer portals exist, TP to friend exists, mounts exist, Siege Turtle way pointing exists.  Each of these things can be used properly, or abused.  And it's totally subjective, and Anet will never give us the details, because that would help people fine tune misbehavior to avoid detection.

We can see some evidence of what Anet considers over the line, though.  Mesmer portals are not blocked anywhere in the open world(that I know of)  Yet there are no mount zones and invisible walls around certain jumping puzzles.  Now Anet is banning for turtle portalling under certain circumstances.  It would be nice to  get some sort of clarification on the turtle portalling, but that is only going to be in second, third, etc... hand information.  So this will may remain unresolved.

Neferpitouh.4356 has just raised an interesting point. This could be viewed an infringing on gem store WP unlocks.  That would be sad, but might actually be true.

I would say mesmer portals at jumping puzzles is more than just helping people. You are, in fact, doing the jp for them in that case. And I think this is more of a gameplay thing than waypoints.

As for ANet not telling us what is and is not allowed so we can't "fine tune misbehavior", I'm not sure I would put this in that category. If it is the case (and I don't think we really know) that people have received bans for nothing more than turtle-porting to waypoints, I believe that requires a response.

If it is because of the store item, well now they sell hero points, too, so those trains might need to pull into the station and be decommissioned. 😛

[Elden Arnaas.4870]

Hopefully someone from Anet will respond to this, but I doubt it.  I think were much more likely to get someone's copy of a reply from Customer Support.

re: memser portals - It is weird, but obviously they're allowed.  Just as weird is that mounts generally *aren't* allowed at JPs, though that would actually be the player actively dong *something*, rather than just passively accepting help.   I'd like to know why, but I'm not holding my breath.

Also, helping someone through difficult parts of a map clear is not the same as just TP'ing characters at a JP.  The players on the map clear have to work at it - they get help, but they have to do most of it themselves.  JP portalling is pretty passive, but allowed for some reason.(and I'm very glad it is, I'm horrible at jumping)

 

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

4 hours ago, Neferpitouh.4356 said:

It is kinda funny how the discussion took a turn into how turtle taxiing is a bad thing when there is an item on the cash shop that unlocks all the WPs with just 1 click.

Paying 20$ to 30$ to get them all in 1 click = Okay

Spending a few hours on using a mount (or a chair) that is hard gated behind $ to unlock = Not okay

Smh some people...

NGL I've been wondering what the whole point of this discussions been, considering I figured out that all these bans were an unintended side-effect of hacker prevention a few pages back.  There's no point in discussing the ethics of a freak accident.  

[Balsa.3951]

i guess people made level 1char ported to bloodstone fen key farm map completion try. make new carachter and repeat.

thats my only guess on abuse the waypoint

[TwistedAlga.4235]

On 12/2/2023 at 11:55 PM, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Like always, 100000% there are important information missing and context.

I bet my left butt cheek that people used bots/programms/hacks/exploits whatever to abuse the duck out of the system and got a slap on the hand for it.

I bet my right butt cheek that nobody will get banned for using the turle to give people some WPs on a map.

I am in love with your butt cheeks

[Zebulous.2934]

If passengers are meant to teleport when the pilot teleports then this cannot reasonably be considered an exploit.  If the devs didn't want this, the passenger would be left behind.  At the very least the devs would implement a patch that stopped passenger teleports. At worst they would make a patch that forces dismount for any player who uses a waypoint.

I think this is on a very different level from item duplication, or taking advantage of improper salvaging results.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Zebulous.2934

[DanAlcedo.3281]

58 minutes ago, TwistedAlga.4235 said:

I am in love with your butt cheeks

As a lover of butts myself, I appreciate it. 😘

[Taclism.2406]

While there's no reason to believe its true, I can't pretend I'm not amused imagining a turtle dev got really butt hurt most of us use turtle as a taxi rather than its intended (lowkey useless) functions

Edited December 4, 2023 by Taclism.2406